₦airaland Forum

Beautiful OP! And well detailed.

Unfortunately Emusan didn't do a good job disproving the op's contentions. The OP explained in very clear terms and reproduced the relevant bible passages, that the virgin birth was actually a sign to king Ahaz, a sign in such times of distress and proof of God's power.

Isaiah 7:10-17 is a conversation between the Prophet Isaiah and King Ahaz on a pressing issue. The King refuses to test God (as Gideon and others have done) yet Prophet Isaiah addresses him as House of David. The house of David does not refer to modern Christians, nor all the Jews, but the royal line, to King Ahaz who can directly trace his bloodline to King David! (As a Synecdoche)

The child's growth and maturity become a yardstick of God's power and strength and how quickly he would destroy King Ahaz's ememies. The child signifies a promise to King Ahaz. The child is relevant to King Ahaz as measure to assess God's fulfilment of His promise.

The OP clearly makes good sense and the verses flow coherently.

Emusan's argument rather sees the House of David as the entire Judah when such a view is inconsistent with fact that Christianity is for the Gentiles as well. Also, Emusan has forgot that the House of David is the rightful King of Israel, Judah could not have been the House of David.

The worst part of Emusan's argument is contending that the conversation between Isaiah and Ahaz abruptly ended at verse 13 and began again at verse 15 without accounting for the gap and loss in communication. Like it is a convo between two schizophrenics.

Whereas if the whole chapter is read together as a single story coherently, it flows with the Op version.

@regyinus

Is God morally bound to do good?

chinziaski: Give me some facts you disbelieve about the existence of God. Let's play...

God and infinity. If it took an infinite period of time prior to God's creation of the universe, then the universe would never have been crÉated.

The problem starts with "there is". The christian must go further to justify his belief.

Faith will have no place or relevance if the existence of God is well proven. Yet Christianity is built on faith, to displace faith is to displace christianity.

@joshthefirst

Why does God design? Why doesn't he just will it?! For God to design, it presumes that God had to adapt to a preexisting environment. For example, why can't God boil water with ice rather than heat?

^^

Thank you so much Mr Troll for the effort at pointing the obvious to Reyginus. Regynius' objections to euthanasia are purely conscientious and religious.

Murder is illegal unlawful killing, in so far as euthanasia is legislated as an exemption. The main purpose of this thread is see the usefulness and not cast moral aspersions on euthanasia.

However lies and the lack of compassion are just as evil as homosexuality. Homosexuality is as grievous and equal as the smallest sin. So why clamour against homosexual unions when polygamy (another equal sin to homosexuality) has not been eradictaed?!

I smell hypocrisy.

^^

@regynius

Anaethesia (pardon my spelling) works similarly to death. The patient under such medicine, does not feel any pain or pleasure. However his unconscious state is desirable for surgeries rather than allow the patient writhe and wriggle about in pains.

As to my dignity argument. You haven't had a strong commandeering, almost omnipotent father with wealth and connections. Yet because of Parkinson's Disease, he is reduced to a babbling baby, helpless, graceless, lost all his powerful countenance and awaiting an ignominous end. You might not understand.

^^
A statement of faith! And this has no place in debate forums like this! There is no point canvassing an idea that has no roots with common reasoning and understanding among all.

Keluong: To elaborate on my point;
God exists
I used to be an atheist.

But I was reading the constituents of the eye and I had to honestly tell myself that it cannot come by chance.

I have always seen the universe as existing from nothing. Even when assuming that nothing evolved to something by a force which I do not know, (if you believe in evolution). How did life come out to be? I am into engineering, so I have seen many machines and control systems and I know what is involved behind the box. The assembly of components at the right places to do a specific task. Now that is a machine. We humans are multifaceted. We are too intricate to have arrived by chance So I cant choose to believe that all these were unconsciously assembled.
I am not a christian, so I wont divulge into the reasons for anomalies of life and creation.
Everything we see around us was set into motion from day1.
I dont think evidence of God is in any religious book, it is in you- your five senses.
If you want to imagine nothiness, think of what happens to you during sleep of 8 hours(without dreams). What happens? you dont know.
I asked myself these questions which
How did nature unconsciously know that humans need eyes, that we need to see nature? then arrange elements of the eye together to produce eyes for sight at the face, and not at the anus.
How did nature know that humans needs to percieve odour from nature?
How did nature know that humans need to taste?
Nature produced male and female (I know there are intermediate anomalies).
Why did nature not produce many other kinds of sex. Why male and female? All our organs are connected to our brains. When you see an unclad opposite sex, there is feedback signal being transferred from eyes to the brain, which sends the signls to your se.x organs. Sometimes it happens unconsciously. The same with when we feel someone unclad, it all sends the same message. It has a purpose- for reproduction of creation. This cannot come by some unconscious random occurence. There is a supreme being behind all these

---

Yes God is the conscious being behind all the creation.
Is it not steering at us in the face?

What am I trying to say?

Whoever that put all these into motion, is more complex and greater than I am.
I cant explain God with my understanding. Why should I? I do not demand that God prooves himself to me, my existence and my complex abilities and our multifaceted nature is enough evidence to believe know that its a product of a conscious supreme being.

You would agree with me that the mind of God is not "assembly of components at the right places for a specific task"? Would you agree with me that the Universe is more vast and sophisticated than God's mind?

Keluong: To elaborate on my point;
God exists
I used to be an atheist.

But I was reading the constituents of the eye and I had to honestly tell myself that it cannot come by chance.

I have always seen the universe as existing from nothing. Even when assuming that nothing evolved to something by a force which I do not know, (if you believe in evolution). How did life come out to be? I am into engineering, so I have seen many machines and control systems and I know what is involved behind the box. The assembly of components at the right places to do a specific task. Now that is a machine. We humans are multifaceted. We are too intricate to have arrived by chance So I cant choose to believe that all these were unconsciously assembled.
I am not a christian, so I wont divulge into the reasons for anomalies of life and creation.
Everything we see around us was set into motion from day1.
I dont think evidence of God is in any religious book, it is in you- your five senses.
If you want to imagine nothiness, think of what happens to you during sleep of 8 hours(without dreams). What happens? you dont know.
I asked myself these questions which
How did nature unconsciously know that humans need eyes, that we need to see nature? then arrange elements of the eye together to produce eyes for sight at the face, and not at the anus.
How did nature know that humans needs to percieve odour from nature?
How did nature know that humans need to taste?
Nature produced male and female (I know there are intermediate anomalies).
Why did nature not produce many other kinds of sex. Why male and female? All our organs are connected to our brains. When you see an unclad opposite sex, there is feedback signal being transferred from eyes to the brain, which sends the signls to your se.x organs. Sometimes it happens unconsciously. The same with when we feel someone unclad, it all sends the same message. It has a purpose- for reproduction of creation. This cannot come by some unconscious random occurence. There is a supreme being behind all these

---

Yes God is the conscious being behind all the creation.
Is it not steering at us in the face?

What am I trying to say?

Whoever that put all these into motion, is more complex and greater than I am.
I cant explain God with my understanding. Why should I? I do not demand that God prooves himself to me, my existence and my complex abilities and our multifaceted nature is enough evidence to believe know that its a product of a conscious supreme being.

I had to fetch your very words.

Keluong: What I think is that our small minds cant explain God. Our logic and reasoning are enough for what it is made for.
Its just like someone asking you to explain how other forms/colors of light can exist(infrared), just because we cant see it and our eyes can only see a narrow band of frequencies. It doesnt mean it does not exist.

I can say you were using your small mind insufficiently designed, to explain god?! It is a glaring contradiction to claim our minds are too small to comprehend God and yet you easily claim his existence with the same small mind.

Joshthefirst: it is from love, that mercy emerges. If God is all love, there would be no justice or orderliness in the universe. Chaos will reign. I beg to differ. God is a just judge, he's also a loving father.

Your own words in the bolded show what God has done and will do. What he has done in passing judgements on nations after warning them repeatedly to repent in the OT, what he will do at the final judgement: condemning men to hell for their sins.

The requirements of justice must be, and are always met. Jesus has met the standard in this new agreement, and our faith is in him.

u are admitting a just and strict judge like God is necessary for order to reign. In other words, God is not merciful so order can reign?

Bidam: Most of them did in OT even when Jesus came they still did..You want scriptural proof?

So how it relevant to loving father and rebellious son ?! The same shut minds in OT and NT!

^^
You seem to suggest that Heaven indulges in material greed!

^^^
You mean to say everybody in OT shut their hearts to God and then in the NT, everyone opened it wide?!

Joshthefirst: A bible quotation to spice things up. Does it not strike you that these ancient words seem even more current and applicable to our society?

Romans 1:18  For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative. 19  For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them. 20  For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification], 21  Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened. 22  Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].

Written by paul, who didn't know much about science and contemporary atheism. Do these words not strike you as unusual? How can this man speak words that apply to us enormously and currently in this way? How come he explains what we know is true?

May God have mercy upon us, may we change our ways and stop forming smart guys for a timeless God and his timeless word.

What God Does and Who God Is, are two different things. One of them leads to the other. It is after we know who God is, then we can know what he does. So pointing out the complexity and probable design of the Universe is not Who God Is.

^^^

It is from absolute love, mercy emerges. A just judge is strict and blind to emotions. Such a judge cannot be merciful. So it is either of the two.

Ok how does a chicken egg hatch into an eagle since they are both birds?!?!?!

Joshthefirst: what are you saying? Infinity is not a concept of time, time is a subset of infinity(eternity). Its a program that started, and will end. It was started for a purpose, it will be ended at the end of that purpose.

How would you prove God's being? What do you want? The truth might be that either you do not know what you want and you simply want to dance around, or you ask for the unreasonable.

The fact of God's being is instinctive in our consciousness. It is also written in our world and space time, it is also proved by his own infringement through supernatural works, through supernatural words, through witnesses and people, God has been working his purpose since the beginning.

So what do you want?
You are without excuse.

I made an error, infinity is a concept of limitless.

How do I know God's fingerprints, if I know nothing about him?

Hence God is comprehensible!!

At last some substance.

Joshthefirst: how you try to use the logic of "chicken producing eagle" to negate the fact of "birds produce birds" is faulty and irrational thinking.

Both are birds, aint they?! So your general premise falls apart.

^^
Absolute love has no room for wrath or wickedness! How do you reconcile the genocides in the OT with acts of love?!

Reyginus: For non-existence to be preferrable it has to be a state of existence but if it a state of existence it can no longer be non-existence.

We can not be speaking of preferring something which is alive over something that is out of life. For anything to be preferrable above the other the two must first be in existence.

That's your arbitrary, dogmatic fragile moral premise. You were to weigh which of non existence and existence was moral, and you managed to use existence to justify nonexistence's immorality. Such a faulty thought process.

Reyginus: But like we know, the work of a medicine is to cure the ailing patient and in its disperse of duty the restoration to normalcy must be palpable.
You cannot claim to have helped somebody who is dead and incapable of experiencing pain or pleasure.

The only thing medicinal about Euthanasia is that it uses drugs to perpetrate its wicked act.

As I said earlier, it is not in every case a doctor's duty is to restore normalcy. Sometime/ many times, a doctor is faced with an incurable disease. His main duty is to care.

Euthanasia (repeatedly said) in some cases relieves the extreme pain and other times restores the human dignity and spiritual value as it rescues a patient from the most dehumanising conditions of the terminal disease.

Deep Sight: God, my friend is not said to be caused.

Is there Eternity?

What caused it?

Is there Infinity?

What caused it?

Eternity and Infinity are components of God - and, are clearly not factors of which you would speak of a cause, are they?

This is an error. Infinity and Eternity are concepts of time and seperate and not to be mistaken for God's Being. Also time and time again, you keep mistaking God for a function of Creator and never prove his Being.

Keluong: What I think is that our small minds cant explain God. Our logic and reasoning are enough for what it is made for.
Its just like someone asking you to explain how other forms/colors of light can exist(infrared), just because we cant see it and our eyes can only see a narrow band of frequencies. It doesnt mean it does not exist.

^^
Which means you can neither say God exists or not.

My next question is what is your concept of God within your limited faculty?

^^

This is one of the reasons atheist vs theist debates rage on for ages. The typical theist tries to commmunicate on the basis of Faith, which utterly fails. Faith can demand and tolerate contradictions, but not reason.

It either that God is merciful or wrathful not both!

^^
I understand your apprehension. Yet I want to clear and unequivocal reponse from you.

Is God comprehensible?

Again,

Can God be comprehended?!

The "design v, designer" belief is merely psychological bias. It thickly veils the inductive experience of man's creative capacity.

A God with two different testaments/wills?! The difference is crystal clear. One God was the God of Israel, the other a universal God.

If you go through the Old testament carefully, God never intended to abrogate his divine laws, by their nature eternal and to serve all ages. As divine laws, they are fulfilled time after time without extinction (contrary to what Christians believe).

Meanwhile the NT God is more of a liberal, tolerates the disobedience of sacred Mosaic law which God handed down himself, loves Gentiles and the unclean, soft spoken.

Reyginus: It is either a thing is wrong or it is not. We can only know if Euthanasia is right or wrong by looking at the meaning of existence and lack of it. What is to be made non-existent better to be unhealthy in existence?

As I have said earlier, I will look at the intents. The question "is it done in good faith" will be examined. An instance wherein non existence is preferrable is one of hopelessness.

Reyginus: If I may ask, is there anyone like patient-family relationship and what does the rationale behind it look like?

The examples I gave were merely to disprove and dismantle your misconception that the consent of B can be satisfactory in lieu of A's. Most fidicuary relationships are set up that way.

I still insist Euthanasia is still a medicine.

^^

You just admitted chickens can not reproduce eagles in spite of the fact that they are of the same kind - - birds. Further, you seem to suggest that animals reproduce only within their species.