₦airaland Forum

JMAN05: Science wont agree with you that the universe do not have a cause. It is unthinkable in the physical realm. guy think.

What is the physical?

Is time physical?

Is information physical?

Are mathematical abstracts physical?

truthislight: since that ^ is so,
can the computer then be able to verify the mind of its designer ?

can the computer decides to described how its designer came to be(exist) on its own ?

Same as the fish question abi? Ok let's assume God is incomprehensible to us, yet we see the complexity and beauty of the universe to conclude that invariably somebody built this "house", so also in the same line of consistent reasoning, it follows that the somebody too himself being super designed but be created by another designer, so on and so ad infinitum.

Good sense will tell us that the Universe will never be created if designers keep designing designers in infinity, this point when God creates the Universe will never approach.

An example: "before I shoot truthlight, I obliged to take permission from my oga at the top, who in turn has to take permission from his own oga at the top, and same has to take permission from his own oga at the top, ad infinitum. When do you think I will shoot truthlight?"

JMAN05: nothing comes uncaused from nothing in the physical. That is a fact that the future cannot change, unless you want to go through your twists like you twisted evolution from nonliving material through.

Could you think deeper, if there was always Nothing, then there would be no GoD!! Simple to understand.

^^
I don't get your question.

kolawaxxy: thank you for your honesty even though you do not see the need for God. There surely is a supreme being.

That's mere faith

Science steals God's show.

The Big Bang theory is merely a proposition given our understanding of physics. We try to compare white holes and black holes with the events of the big ban.g. However our understanding of just this Universe has revealed it mysterious nature.

We are beginning to understand that there is the possibility that time travels nonlinearly. That is, time can reverse, pause, progress, accelerate. That the fabric of spacetime is more fragile than we thought. We are beginning to see the possibility of billions and billions of universes! It is mind blowing!

From my own view, I dismiss the need for God, because already we are redefining our presumptious/commonsense concepts, we are redefining "nothing", questioning change/causality aND God is still bound by his 19th century definition.

I see Euthanasia as an exception to thou shall not kill. Euthanasia is a curative medicine from my view and done out of respect for the dignity and spiritual value of a human.

^^

So in other words, we cannot comprehend God since we are not too far from dogs?!

By the way, my argument of infinite regress disproves God as a creator argument because of the absurdity of infinite regress.

@truthislight

I get your grouse in your disjointed post. However so as to be clearer, what is your yardstick for the physical world.

As to earth, we both agree that there is purpose in every design. Now of what purpose is a desert?

Most theists fail to realize that causality is all about change in form! It does not bring about existence. A causal question about existence, suggests non-existence was prior to existence. This is nonsensical to believe Nothing is the cause of existence.

Theists don not realize that they hold God as the substance of existence, and he changed A PART of his self to create the Universe and all! After all, God cannot create from Nothing.

^^
Very articulate.

However the 2nd designer is very much in contention and indispensable because we are concerned/confronted with Cosmology! And all other subsequent designers ad infinitum are accordingly relevant.

Note your computer design example, the complex arrangement and design was preconceived by a mind. The mind of the computer designer had already created the computer in his imagination. So its a mere reflection of the mind, and making the human mind, the builder's min more complex than his product. The mind is much more marvelous than the computer.

Same as God's mind.

2nd designer creates God, 3rd designer creates 2nd designer, 4th designer creates 3rd designer ad infinitum. The problem is, it is logically absurd for that to happen, so also we can't say God or any of the designers are uncaused, because they are still complex and we can easily claim the Universe or earth is uncaused.

So for the problem of infinite creators.

^^



I need a house to protect myself from the elements. It is a shelter and also for security.

Don't tell me God is on a wooden throne!

^^
You guys are making this too labourious.

Do you think God's Mind is caused or uncaused? Why?

Do you think the Universe is caused or uncaused? Why?

What is the defining yardstick for the physical world?

OLAADEGBU: You should know by now that you can't think crooked and walk straight.

Let's see the verses in question:

"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!" (Job 19:23-24).

You can see that Job's longing to write of his adventure expressed here, as well as the fact that no one else apart from him could know them, makes it almost certain that he was the original author of the Book of Job.

No ola,you merely did what your ilk would do, pick out solitary words and ignore the entire passages and sentences. The full story here:

"Have pity on me, my friends, have pity, for the hand of God has struck me. 22 Why do you pursue me as God does? Will you never get enough of my flesh? 23 "Oh, that my words were recorded, that they were written on a scroll, 24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead, or engraved in rock forever! 25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. 26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;

He merely seeks a record wherein his pains are kept and be used as a petition against God. He is not saying he wrote any book, or the Book of Job in particular!

@truthlight and Jman05

Both of you are hypocrites!

How did you understand fishes live in water?

How do you understand fishes can't comprehend man on land?

Both of you rambled on about building and builder, and when it get to God's mind, suddenly its a mysterious building!

I doubt if you people really thought about it. If God's Mind does not require a cause, then it puts at risk the general principle of causality! If due to our lack of comprehension, we cannot understand some phenomena, then we cannot say God's Mind was caused or the Universe itself is caused!

OLAADEGBU: Job. 19:23-24

LMFAOOO Ola you are a crook!

truthislight: How can i address the mind of God when you cannot even address that of man that you can see ?

Are some of us humans suffereing from over self estimation ? I dont.

Over bloated intelligence of ones self is deceitful and can be destructive.

But the Bible answers all my Questions. No ? 8

Hmmmm. But out of your intelligence, you said God created the Universe, and you were not present to watch God do that. I didn't complain about your overreaching intelligence!

Its like you have given up.

I still think the law was wrongly applied, however Christians cannot go around shouting love, portray an open loving religion and then hypocritically go round discriminating based on their club rules!

Some people will remain homosexuals and its their choice and some have religions that are compatible with it or might not be Christians at all! So why bother them?!

^^
Ok. Homosexuals should be hated and discriminated against.

What about atheists, muslims and hindus? Is it right to discriminate against them?!

And what do they need the mansion for?! To protect them from the elements or mere status symbols?!

So also its a sin not to pray?! What about the resulting inequality, some people get mansions and skyscraper, while others get ghettos?b

Last question, is there gravity in heaven?

elampiro: To a christian, people who engage in homosexuality are provoking the angle of God and hell bound. To not let them know the danger of such act is like hatred towards them and their souls. To call their dead consciences to the to the magnitude of their evil act and potential loss of their souls to hell for eternity is showing mercy and love to them.

^^ same also to people who do not believe Jesus is the son of God, right? Can Christianity in this light claim to be a loving religion, when the love is directed only to Christians?!

elampiro: No. Sodomy is a grievous sin against God. A true christian wouldn't participate in abortion, sodomy and pagan rituals.

Some sins are a direct rebellion against God's laws. Every christian knew what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. If I sell scissors and you come and tell me to sell my products to you to carry out an abortion, I will not sell. If I sell I would have been part of your murder of the unborn consciously..

So its ok and good for a Christian to discriminate against non christians for the mere fact they don't follow Christian religious instructions?! In other words, a christian can only love a christian.

I'm for greater individual rights against public interests. I don't support the decision, because it is punitive against conscientious rights.

@elampiro

Don't you think it was unChristian for the baker to act prejudicially against NON-christians?!

OLAADEGBU: Yes, and Job who wrote about it 4,000 years ago must have witnessed it.

What proof do you have to claim that Job wrote the book of Job?

^^
Yes I Agree, and address God's Mind

truthislight: Charity begins at home they say, start fron the one you see in planet earth and show they came by chance.

Even the one you see, how absolutely are you able to grasp it, in fact, humans as a whole, are they able to grasp all that happends in nature or they are learning bit by bits ?

If so, why jump hastily to the one you cant see to draw absolute conclussions ?

Is that ^ a course of wisedom ?

Does the evident demonstration of reality in nature support your conclussions ?

The house you live in, can it fall from the skies ?
Is the skies the place where houses are builth without a builder ?

First of all, nobody in this thread is claiming chance and neither would logicboy's poor arguments be used as a prop to support your untenable arguments! Your argument has to stand on its own.

Now, you claim all buildings, cars and complexities must have a builder as their cause -- this is your premise

I'm saying as a weak point in your argument, that God's Mind similarly demonstrates the complexity found in houses, cars and buildings, therefore should have a cause responsible for such a super Mind.

Invariably God would have a cause!

truthislight: You still cant comprehend the basics, that all houses are builth by someone.

Just look around you, and think again.

Does the evidence supports your conclussions ?

OK I agREE! God's Mind as a house, who built it??

JMAN05: what about the driver, does he change form to control a car?

Does he expend energy?

JMAN05: I take your answer to be yes. ok, How did you arrive at that statement that a cause must change?

Simply to produce an effect! Petrol in your tank will not remain there in infinity while it pushes your car, hot volcanic larva doesn't remain the same to turn into rock. Causality is only possible with change.

truthislight: Oh! Were we debating ?
I did not notice that!



but this is what the OP has been trying to tell you below:

"For every house is builded by someone; but he that built all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4).
.....................

Do you belief that ^ ?

When you are able to comprehend that ^ simple basic fact and reality, ring ma bel.

You still don't see the obvious!

God's Mind as a house must be built by somebody, right?!

^^
LMAOO!! Ola!

Don't you think the bible verses you provided, are far from obvious?!

^^
Truthlight, you are seriously confused along with the OP. Because you don't drag faith into debates, and you don't use special pleadings! If you assert God exists, simply prove so. The Op attempted to prove the existence of God through the intricacy and beauty of the Universe, yet he impliedly suggested that the universe is a reflection of God's mind. Automatically, it begshe question, who created God's Mind.

NOW all of a sudden, God is incomprehensible, then why claim he iis the uncaused cause? Why claim he is good? Why calim he isn't the Devil if he is soo incomprehensible?!

Joshthefirst: what kind of relationship then do you speak of? Be specific.

Homo erectus and homo habilis cannot be of the same kind. Kinds reproduce, as the excerpt states.

I mean an ancestorial relationship.

Point out a species that reproduces another of their same kind.