₦airaland Forum

LordReed:
✓ So if I say Harry Potter doesn't exist, I am practicing a religion?

Wrong! Thanks to the author of the series, we know her works are of her imagination. 🥱🥱

Anyways, you and I have already been through this many times in the past. Are you really thinking to dreg this nonsense back up again? 🥱

LordReed:
✓ Is it god belief that is built on facts? Why then can you lot never produce these facts when asked?

On the God issue, Science still does not pretend to have the facts. That means the very claim that God does not exist is also of religion. So...yeah! 🥱

Obi1kenobi:
➜I took your comments in the context you intended it and you've gone further to confirm that context, so I have no idea what you think I "truncated". Your argument seems to be that every society has at the very least some small surviving population of religious zombies, therefore human society can't "survive" without religion. This is incredibly fallacious.
➜ I might as well claim human society can't function without murderers and rapists because every society has murderers and rapists. Religion is irrelevant to the "survival" of Japanese society cos it plays no role in public life. Its utility value is largely in cultural identity and history - same as most Europeans see Christianity as cultural identity rather than an actual religion, and their churches are basically museums with beautiful architecture and art.
➜ I've already told you the roots of human morality, which you didn't address, so it seems you're arguing "meaninglessly".

1. Your submission regarding my statements thus far is wrong. Now, please try to take your personal delusions out of everything I have said thus far, and begin processing my responses as written. 😒

2. That is a very naive assumption that you make there. What we all know as the Japanese way of life, work ethics, respect for the environment, etc, all come from traditional Japanese beliefs, which are all tied to the Shinto religion. If you do not know this at all, then what are you attempting to argue here? Why? 😒😒

3. All you have done is spew forth brain fart after brain fart expecting something to land at some point. Well, nothing has! 😒😒

yemmit90:
1. Can you please define 'morality', "immorality' and 'Nature"? If you can perfectly do this, you will understand how the concept of these natural laws prescribed morality for all. In short, it is a moral standard for animals and humans because they are the acceptance social norms brought by nature.
2. You still never answer the question, or may be you don't get the logic behind the question. That something is bad, doesn't mean people are not doing it, so try to focus your argument on whether it is morally acceptable or not.

1. Morality refers to the foundational set of principles, beliefs, and standards that a people, society, or nation subscribes to. It provides clear differentiation between what is considered right (moral) and what is considered wrong (immoral) for a particular people, society, or nation. Thinks of it as axioms(base truths) aka the grounding on which all subsequent laws are meant to derive from. 😒

2. I can't answer a literally stewpid question though. There is nothing universal about what is considered moral in your society, state, or nation. When you say such things as laws of nature, you hint at some sort of universal moral standard to which we all hold, a standard that nature itself administers and adjudicates, yes? Well, when men sexually assault their children or relatives in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any other -stan where women are seen as tools for the pleasure of the men, I don't see nature stepping in to do anything about that. Therefore, I think it is ridiculous to suggest at this point that nature has moral rules for us to argue on. 😒

Again, pay close attention to the meaning of morality, so you can better narrow your scope to that which is relevant to the conversation.😒

ochibuogwu5:
Christian Legality Against Islamic Radicality (C.L.A.I.R) in Nigeria.
The Days of intimidation from Muslims who claim their religious god or prophet was insulted and they begin to kill Christians in Nigeria is coming to an end.
JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED is the Lamb upon the throne and He is also *The Lion of the Tribe of Judah*!!!

This is nonsense! Anyone unwilling to read up on Islamic texts in order to better understand Islam and what it literally stands for should best shut up when it comes to the situation in Nigeria. 😒

yemmit90:
1. Yes, it does. If you don't know about them all, at least you can studies the likes of lions, termites, eagles, elephants and some others to get your answer.
2. Why didn't the said families say it out? Or can you proudly mention their names or tribes?

1. So, explain how these natural laws prescribe morality for all? How are those laws a moral standard for animals and for humans? 😒

2. The same reason most people don't say all they do behind closed doors in public. They only air their situation outside when they are safely among those who agree with them. Take, for instance, the rape of children by their fathers, brothers, or uncles, or in general pdfilia, if individuals who found such practices acceptable were to locate for themselves their own private island under laws that allowed them to freely practice, do you think it would not happen? In places like Pakistan, the claim is that 9 out of 10 children on the streets have been graped by adult men. 36% of all girls and at least 29% of all boys have been sexually abused.
https://theworld.org/stories/2013/08/15/pakistani-children-face-high-rates-incest-receive-little-support-family-state

Do you think that the government, women, and society are not aware of the problem? Do you think the victims have not tried to get help, only to be ignored? 😒

AntiChristian:
➜ Na you dey lie here not me! Clear lies! Confirm it na! You are the one justifying Samson's killings making it seem right since it was approved by YHWH!
➜ Wetin be Anubis? Type in the general language everyone understands!
➜ Yeah, the connection is clear with what USA did in Iraq looking for weapon of mass destruction all to no avail. And also occupying Afghanistan for decades with nothing to show for it. And everywhere they (i.e. USA, Israel, etc) go destruction seems to follow.
➜ You may know much but understand little. Knowledge without understanding is a minus!
➜ Same killing YHWH too ordered people to do even to kill animals, keep female captives for themselves, and even share war booties for YHWH.
➜ The connection is God sending His spirit to enter Samson, and Boko Haram god sending His own spirit to make Boko haram do their acts too. Killings is the same! God may be the same too!
➜ I don't support both Samson and Boko Haram.

1. A human being cannot justify another human being unless he/she is judge and jury over the other. Samson, who lived almost 3000 years ago, cannot be justified by my person. Rather, his justification can only be gotten from the Law of his God or the land at the time. And according to the story, Samson dealt with them in retaliation to the deeds they committed against him. 🤔

2. 😒

3. Wow... now na Iraq you dey fly off to? Na wa oo! Seems someone has a stick in his arse for this US. Anyways, I am not interested in the many segues. 😒

4. Oh, I get it! Islam thrives on ignorance. I get it. 😒

5. Yes, that was the general rule of warfare in the nation until it ceased to be a nation capable of fighting for itself about 2500 years ago. As a matter of fact, that rule was applied even longer than that, or at least until slavery was abolished by the British about 100 years ago. 😒

6. Oh I see now! It is you finally admitting that the killings done by Boko Haram against innocent people is a result of the Islamic god, and not the US after all? Right, right! 😒

7. Well the story of Samson does not state that he needed anyone's support for what he did. So, I am not certain why you frame your statement in the way you do. 😒

Boko Haram, a known Islamic terrorist groups, on the other hand, seems to seek support from people in our time as it constantly uses social media and lobbies government for money and resources every so often and what almost seems like permission to be left alone to continue to pillage. (Gumi, their spokesperson, literally said the terrorists are brothers implying they should not be killed.) And you attempting to make a case for Boko Haram by comparing its activities to that of an unrelated situation entirely makes me wonder what your real motive is. 😒

Obi1kenobi:
✓ You made a false statement that I addressed.
You'll have to elaborate on what you mean by "survive without any form of religion to it". What is the relevance of religion to Japan or Scandinavia? As far as I can see, you seem to be "dribbling" yourself by conflating correlative factors (every society has at least a small fraction of religious people - however few) to causative ones and trying to create massive extrapolations from small fractions of religious people in such societies.
✓ Morality is a product of our human consciousness. Humans evolved over tens of thousands of years from very primitive hunter-gatherers to building civilizations through cooperation - allowing us to co-exist. Humans cannot co-exist without the implicit agreements and rules that make coexistence possible. We imbibed moral systems that allow us coexist the same way we learnt engineering or advanced medicine. Claiming humanity learnt not to kill each other because some nameless person wrote "thou shall not kill" in a book in the Jewish Torah is obviously ridiculous. We didn't develop a moral system because of religious texts. We developed the moral system and expressed it in the religious texts that we wrote. Assuming that our morality is a product of religion degrades human beings as little more than animals operating only on our basest instincts if a sky daddy isn't given us moral instructions.

1. You truncated a statement I made in order that you can assert a meaning different from intended by the full statement and context in which it was presented. Yet, you insist that I am the one here doing the dribbling and conflating? 🥱🥱

Japan has Shintoism and Scandinavian societies were formerly built on norse paganism, a tradition with the country cherishes to this day even with the supposed addition of elements from the religion of Christianity over the centuries. 🥱🥱

2. Clearly, you prefer to argue meaninglessly. I am interested in this here.🥱🥱

Obi1kenobi:
✓ No. Atheism is not a religion. A religion requires a dogmatic belief system, rituals and practises, and organized community and structure. And it's not built on any falsehood - unlike sky daddy believers.

Atheism is founded on the dogmatic belief, without a foundation in facts, that there exists no power higher or greater than that which is currently known. It is a religion. It is all built on falsehood.🥱

AgentNairaland:
✓ What is he then?

According to reports on him, he is a traditionalist. 🥱

geoworldedu:
✓ Okay God is his standard of morality and this God of his commanded that he should kill his disobedient and drunk son in a honour Killing.
✓ Are you saying that I as a non-religious being doesn't have the right to challenge the morality of his God, even when he told me already that the act of killing one's son because of disobedience is not moral.
✓ So if the act is not moral, can the person who commanded it be classified as being moral? I was trying to ask him, but he doesn't want to be direct with me.

1. I don't know about that. He is not an Israelite.from over 2000 years ago -- the law in question ceased when the Romans took over complete rule of the nation of Judea and the seat of power in Jerusalem -- living in the land of Israel where that codified law of the time insisted that no exemptions were to be made for sons who commit treason... disobedience of the law was considered treason at the time. I stay clear away from prescribing presentism when analyzing such issues. 🥱🥱

2. You can challenge the morality of his deity for certain.What I instead alluded to is the fact that his deity, by virtue of providing him his moral compass, cannot then be considered immoral unless you have another moral standard by which to compare him or it to. 🥱🥱

3. Who decides if an act is not moral? You by virtue of your current brain farts -- our brain farts change over time and situation, mind you? Or what other deity or system (standard of morality) out there decides this? 🥱🥱

A moral being/system is one that has been chosen as such by a consensus. You are not a moral being simply because you think yourself so. The human ego plays the craziest tricks on us. 🥱

AntiChristian:
You need not verify anything! Samsom✓ has proven to have killed with the help of the Holy Spirit. And his justification for killing according to you is because he is supported by YHWH, the God of Israelites..... Did i get you well?
✓ Boko haram are chosen to be funded by the proxy of the new Israel aka USA. Just as your own old Israel is justified by YHWH's support, why can't they claim support from whatever they call their own god?
✓ It was definitely affirmed by a US Congressman Scot Perry made the claim that USAIDS funded terrorists including Boko Haram.
✓ You have a shallow understanding of everything Islam. Calling you a Kafir simply means you are a disbeliever in what i believe (Islam)
✓ just as Samson was killing those who were Kaafir to him though he slept with a hoe and didn't kill Delilah!

I see you are deadsst on Taqiyah-ing the shit out of us with these irrational questions of yours again. 🥱🥱

1. Again, I need confirm every one of your claims. As for justification, did Samson ever express that he needed justification for any of his killings? 🥱🥱

2. Is this like suggesting that your the Anubis and his bandits were also funded by, say the Romans or the Catholic company during their killing spree across say Arabia back in 7th century Arabia? 🥱

3. So, because he made reference.to a connection, means you are now free to conclude all ok your own that Boko Haram was directly funded by the US? 🥱🥱

4. Even after reading much of the core texts of Islam, something well over 95% percent of Islamics never read, you consider that I still don't know the truth about your deiry? Even though the core beliefs make it clear that I am probably to be considered among the worst of creatures, deserving subjugate at the hands of Islamists you conclude I don't know your deity still? 🥱

5. Kufar to Samson? Islam is really evil that it would do this to your mind. 🥱🥱

The Philistines were a tribe who invaded, killed and subjugated the Israelites, raping and stealing as they desired. For at least a generation the Israelites did not fight back against their overlords. And then along came Samson unwilling to tolerate them. He lived alongside them but refused to tolerate their bullying. 😟

But blessed by the power of Islamic Taqiyah, you are wanting us to abandon the original narrative altogether to find some point of intersection between the acts of Samson and the massacres done by Islamic terrorists. What would the world do without the religion of Taqjyah! 🥱

allthingsgood:
✓ Atheism is not a religion. Also psychopaths exist whether they are atheists or religious

I am afraid you are wrong. Atheism, like every religion out there, is built on falsehood and not facts. 🥱🥱

yemmit90:
✓ It came from 'Natural law or law of nature', and that is what made us homosapiens. This laws were innate, raw and naturally built with our biological composition.
✓ If I may ask you, where did a family learnt that it is not good to sleep with one another along the blood line? Why do you feel it is not appropriate to sleep with your beautiful sisters or mum?

Natural Law? Do these natural laws apply to animals as well? 🥱🥱🥱

2. You mean you don't know there are places out there were family members sleep with each other and don't even talk about it? 🥱🥱🥱

Obi1kenobi:
✓ Completely false. Plenty of societies live cohesively and purposefully while being highly irreligious. Japan is a great example of a harmonious society with a very strong social fabric [s]where religion plays next to no role in public life.[/s]

Are you here to dribble with yourself or focus on the topiic at hand which is source of morality? Name one nation or society out there that is able to survive without any form of religion to it. 🥱

geoworldedu:
✓ Is your God immoral or not? If your give the right answer without being evasive or beating about the bush, then I will easily answer you.

Not trying to hold brief for the other, but isn't immorality defined as that which goes against the moral standard? If the system or god in question is the standard of morality,how can it then also be immoral? 🥱🥱

Hwanghyunjin:
I feel like I don't need god to have Good morals 😑 Just don't treat ppl how you Don't want to be treated. Simple.
✓ I think its weird when religious ppl say to atheists then "how do you have Good morals?" Your telling me you cant live a Good life without god? Then what type of person are you as an individual?

Every body feels that way. Even serial killers believe their moral compass is set right. So, do we consider an individual's feelings the moral standard to trust? 🥱🥱

2. As an individual, we know very well that all this can go both ways. Every individual is capable of the worst kind of evil. This isn't about a god god but about the moral standard as God over the individual. And that level of control and trust can only be achieved when their is a real system in place to provide the guarantee necessary in the case that things go wrong. 🥱

DeepSight:
In jurisprudence, we distinguish between law and morals, something you are failing to do here.

Why so slow? Your laws are established upon the values aka morals that make up the foundation of your legal system. In the case I gave previously, the laws in Afghanistan are designed around the moral standard that has been adopted by the people in power which can be traced back to the Islamic books. 🥱🥱

Basically, what we have seen revealed in the 20th century is that a system without that grounding that is a moral standard easily falls to all kinds of manipulation and evil unchecked. 🥱🥱🥱

uchennamani:
✓ You quoted millions of people that died in China. I just dey laugh you. Many more have died in senseless religious wars.
✓ And you know why this is funny? Atheists are the most religious tolerant people on earth.
✓ If you say Christ is the author and finisher of your life, I saw okay. If you say Allah is the only one true god, I say okay.
✓ If you carve an idol out of a wood and say it is your god, I say fine. So, practice your religion in peace. All you should keep in mind is that if your religion is the basis of your morality, omo you no be good person at all

1. Be specific! In what war did many more people die? 🥱

2. You may think that but the evidence we have thus far says otherwise. So, should we simply take your word for it or something? 🥱🤔

3. I said nothing to you of a Christ or an Allah. The topic is of the source of ones morality and history shows that a source other than mere brain farts is necessary for that which has some semblance of sanity to reign. 🥱

4. If you don't understand the topic, I suggest you ask questions. Not make claims that are meaningless and unnecessary to this issue at hand. 🥱🥱

DeepSight:
1. Humans cannot be trusted but religion is trusted? Who made religion if not humans?

2. Wars, mass torture and mass murder driven by religion are prolific all through history so what are you on about.

1. All systems, contracts, including religions ones, are made by humans. Either it is built to serve those who are signatories and those under it, or it isn't. That is pretty much how every society works. 🥱

2. I made myself clear. 🥱🥱

Urgent1Million:
➜ There's a huge difference between morality and theism aka religion.
One doesn't need to believe in a god to know what is right and what is wrong. Religion calls the wrong sin. The law calls it a crime. Both theist and atheists are subject to the law of the land so they know the rights from the wrongs. [b]Morality is rooted in empathy and rational standards. That is not necessarily religion.
➜ If a feel pain when my property is taken away, I will not take other people's properties and will discourage others from taking people's properties. I don't need any religion to know that. It's just humanity.

1. First of all, I disagree with your claim that morality is necessarily rooted in empathy and rational standards. Rather, morality is instead, as decided upon by the majority or those who wield the most power. Case and point Afgahistan or any of the other Islamic countries out there, where it is lawful for an Islamic to kill a non-believer, while an Islamist who kills a fellow Islamist can face a fine, or be forced to manumit a slave as punishment.🤔

As to your other claim which is towards the notion that morality can exist outside of religion. I also disagree, and here's why. Every single moral system that man has typically employed to date, a system that punishes immorality while rewarding morality, has almost always existed within the frameworks of religion. Whether you are referring to the traditional level(tradition is a form of religion) or the national level(nationalism for the patrioitic at heart is a form of religion) or the case of atheism(the religion that pretends it is not a religion even though everything about it is based on religion and not facts), you are still referring to religion.🤔

2. Also, Morality, as we humans have typically known of it, does not necessarily exist in the strongest outside of a clearly defined religious values framework. What do I mean? Well, you only need to look at the works of such individuals as Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Kim Jong un, etc., to see that without a values system set in stone(religion), what mankind has typically ended up is calamity after calamity. This is not to say that all religions are better than no religion. No, but I am saying that religion without a clearly defined moral compass is a disaster in the making. 🤔

uchennamani:
➜Morality doesn’t require belief in your God or any god to exist. Atheists base their morality in reason, empathy, and shared human experience. If God is the reason for your morality, you are a very, very bad person.
➜ When atheists rejects lying or violence to humans or other vices, it is not because Bible or Quran or any religion says so, it is because such acts erode trusts, harm people and damage communities.

1. History in the 20th century teaches us that those whose religion does not include the threat of hellfire, and exists without a standard of morality set beforehand are not necessarily more moral. 🤔

Estimates of the number of people who died under Mao Zedong's rule (1949–1976) vary widely, but most historians and demographers place the figure between 40 and 80 million deaths, largely driven by the Great Leap Forward and subsequent famine. While some estimates are lower (around 15-30 million) and others higher, these deaths resulted from a combination of man-made famine, forced labor, and direct executions, making it one of the deadliest periods in 20th-century history.

...

Estimates of the number of people who died under Joseph Stalin's rule (1924–1953) vary significantly, generally ranging from 6 million to over 20 million, depending on whether the figures include famine victims, deaths in forced labor camps (Gulag), and executions.

Following the opening of Soviet archives in 1991, most historians converged on a lower, yet still massive, figure of roughly 9 million direct victims, while broader estimates including famine and preventable deaths often cite 20 million or more.

...

Estimates of deaths under Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un are high, driven primarily by famine, political repression, and prison camp conditions. Under Kim Jong Il (1994–2011), an estimated 1 million to over 3 million people died during the "Arduous March" famine in the late 1990s. Under Kim Jong Un (2011–present), while a famine of that scale has not been officially confirmed, hundreds of thousands to millions are believed to have suffered from chronic malnutrition, with deaths exacerbated by harsh, targeted political purges, executions, and prison camp conditions

. Humans cannot be trusted to make this sheet up as they go. It only leads to catastrophe.

2. We know, and therein lies the problem. An ever-shifting moral compass or source is akin to no morality at all. 🤔

sulaak:
You don't need religion or another man to be moral. Respect for your fellow man and his property is enshrined in all cultures. I still find it hard to understand how Nigeria is one of the most religious countries in the world, yet one of the most corrupt societies.[size=8pt][/size]

Culture/Tradition is a form of religion. Nationalism is also a form of religion. 🤔

Also, that which you claim is enshrined in your culture to teach you values you are to live by is the standard of morality... the source of your morality. Note, it is external to your inner brain farts. 🤔

geoworldedu:
➜ I am not an atheist, neither am I religious. But I don't think a god is needed to be moral. Whatever rules and laws are made for a country, that's enough to build up your morality. For example, in Nigeria, lesbianism and gay is not allowed.
➜ it is written in the constitution then it is enough.

Rules and laws can easily change; we are already seeing how easily and drastically that happens in places in Europe. Without a preestablished moral standard to guide the various changes in rules and laws, changes in rules and laws can actually be to the detriment of society. 🤔

2. If no standard of morality is baked into the constitution, then that cannot protect the society from the sort of invasion that is taking place today in parts of the world. The standard of morality defines the core set of values of any nationality. Once it is missing, then all hell could and would eventually break loose. 🤔🤔

seunmsg:
➜The humanity in me defines my morality and not anything written in some books published over 6000 years ago.
➜ If your morality is defined by religion and the usual threat of hell fire, then you have no morality at all. You should do good because it's the right thing for you to do as a human being and not because of any religious code.

This is meaningless gobbledegook since all humans are born with humanity, yet all humans are capable of extreme evils. 🤔

2. Wrong! History in the 20th century teaches us that those whose religion does not include the threat of hellfire, and exists without a standard of morality set beforehand are not necessarily more moral. 🤔

Estimates of the number of people who died under Mao Zedong's rule (1949–1976) vary widely, but most historians and demographers place the figure between 40 and 80 million deaths, largely driven by the Great Leap Forward and subsequent famine. While some estimates are lower (around 15-30 million) and others higher, these deaths resulted from a combination of man-made famine, forced labor, and direct executions, making it one of the deadliest periods in 20th-century history.

...

Estimates of the number of people who died under Joseph Stalin's rule (1924–1953) vary significantly, generally ranging from 6 million to over 20 million, depending on whether the figures include famine victims, deaths in forced labor camps (Gulag), and executions.

Following the opening of Soviet archives in 1991, most historians converged on a lower, yet still massive, figure of roughly 9 million direct victims, while broader estimates including famine and preventable deaths often cite 20 million or more.

...

Estimates of deaths under Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un are high, driven primarily by famine, political repression, and prison camp conditions. Under Kim Jong Il (1994–2011), an estimated 1 million to over 3 million people died during the "Arduous March" famine in the late 1990s. Under Kim Jong Un (2011–present), while a famine of that scale has not been officially confirmed, hundreds of thousands to millions are believed to have suffered from chronic malnutrition, with deaths exacerbated by harsh, targeted political purges, executions, and prison camp conditions

. Humans cannot be trusted to make this sheet up as they go. It only leads to catastrophe.

Ibehchizzy:
Just love people enough

Loving them in what way? How do you define love? Even a woman who goes around killing old people who are sick believes she does it out of love. 🤔🤔

allthingsgood:
Which one is source of morality Every human being is born with a sense of what's right and wrong. Simple: treat others how you want to be treated.
✓ The most wicked people in the world are the religious folks. Religion gives control over people to the few, who then manipulate it for extreme wickedness.

Going by what you have up there, are we to assume then that every human being is a moral being? Please stop repeating this nonsense. 🥱🥱

2. You have that right. Stalin who killed 10s of millions of people and Mao were both of the religion of Atheism. The biggest problem with their religion was that there was no codified standard of morality, though. So, yes, the most religious to date commit the worst attrocities meaning religion has its very ugly side. However, the other side of religion is that no nation run by humans can cohesively and sanely exist without it still. 🥱🥱

femi4:
Your conscience, thats why cornelius was upright in action even before accepting Christ

Nonsense! Every human is born with a conscience yet all humans are capable of the worst evils. Clearly, a conscience is not all that is needed when it comes to morality. 🥱

AgentNairaland:
Is Daddy Wole Soyinka here or Broda Seun should answer this!

Wole Soyinka is not an atheist.🥱🥱

Miggs:
Lol
If anyone needs religion to be "moral" If anyone needs religion inorder not to commit atrocities against other humans & not destroy the environment,then that person is a piece of s-h-i-t,scumbag

I hate religion, but I have had to realize without a religious framework behind a moral position, your so-called morality amounts to brain farts. Your brain farts, without a system of religion backing it, is nothing. 🥱🥱

Kobicove:
Every human being was born with a conscience, an innate ability to know right from wrong.

A conscience is not enough to make one moral. You know this simply from the fact that humans are capable of the most evil. 🥱

iamjavadem:
Just don't do what you don't want others to do to you....thats it, plain and simple. It covers all.

That amounts to sourcing it from brain farts. We have seen how that works out in places like Cuba, Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc. It's evil. 🥱🥱