Where is the upward? kindly explain
Because before Jesus came to the earth millions have died. John 3:13 Jesus said that he did not see them there before coming to the earth. So,
keep throwing more light and the Bible will not fail to keep catching up with you.

solite3:
Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

This shows that the Spirit of man is different from animals.

Did we tell you that Jesus is a man? We have always told you that he is a spirit creature living in heaven. He is a creation as Colossians 1:15 tells you. check it in your own Bible. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 says that there are gods in heaven but only one is the ONLY TRUE GOD John 17:3. Jesus said in John 10:27 that his sheep will hear his voice. Then in his own voice (the one that his sheep hears) he said the words in John 20:17 that his God is also our God. Are you his sheep? Do you hear his voice at John 20:17?

solite3:
do I.need to prove this man is the only creature created like God.

You will never be satisfied with answers because you are biased. You are a hater of the JW and that changes nothing. You have been answered and yet you stay recycling your questions just to get a feel that is non-existing. You are asking someone to tell you how Jesus pronounced God's name? Are you being realistic? Do we speak that language? The scriptures were recorded as written text and not motion picture. Even in English there are many pronunciations to a single word. None of the words that you pronounce today were pronounced the same way that Jesus pronounced it because they were all written in another language that has its own rules. The name Jesus is English and in the Hebrew and Greek languages it doesn't come off as the English pronunciation.
Get some education on Linguistics. Each language has rules and they guide pronunciations of word. The way centre is pronounced in English is different from the way it is pronounced in French. It would be inept to ask a French who has no knowledge of English to sound centre in English.
Let me ask you a similar question that you are asking and see how well you perform. Here is a word in old persian, xšaθra. Please pronounce it the way Cyrus the great pronounced it.
Here is another one, ⲡ ⲧ ϫ ⲕ. Pronounce it the way the Egyptian Pharoahs pronounced it. If you cannot, then you have no case. In every language, all you do is translate words that are in foreign languages and forge ahead.
Asking the same question and recycling it is a waste of human organs and a way to feel victorious when a case is lost. Is that question your only defense? If you got a good case you should bring on evidences and not wasting people's time in a whirlpool.

Emusan:


Just imaging, Jesus said He made the name KNOWN. So, that's how your organization has programmed you to interpret this verse.

At least you people always hide under misquote works of some NT scholars but can you give us at least TWO NT scholars who interpreted this verse as Jesus was moving around shouting JEHOVAH up and down?

Besides, if your interpretation of this verse means Jesus was actually telling people about the name Jehovah, why didn't you call Jesus Himself Jehovah? Since Jesus said He came in His Father's name! John 5:43



Now you are asking me to provide evidence. (That means you didn't even read the OP in the first place you only jumped in as a robot to support your brother about the name Jehovah) because according to your brother who opened this thread, he said the original pronunciation was lost SHORTLY after the OLD TESTAMENT was completed.

Was OT completed after the death of Jesus or before Jesus was born?

This is what he said from the OP because you need to be taught like a primary 4

Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

PaChukwudi44:


Jesus was not created.He was begotten.He is of the same substance as the father

God does not have a literal wife with whom he fathered children. But he is the Creator of all life. (Revelation 4:11) Therefore, the first human that God created, Adam, is called a “son of God.” (Luke 3:38) Similarly, the Bible teaches that Jesus was created by God. So Jesus is also called a “Son of God.”—John 1:49.

God created Jesus before he created Adam. Regarding Jesus, the apostle Paul wrote: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) Jesus’ life began long before he was born in a stable in Bethlehem. In fact, the Bible says that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) As God’s firstborn Son, Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23.

My question is still pending. Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is referred to as "God the son" as opposed to "son of God"? I have been asking for 3 days now.
You seem to have a personal issue with Jehovah's Witnesses. Who cares? You keep purporting doctrines but never answering any questions.
John 17:3 Jesus himself said that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD and his father and his God. He is the only one ever referred to as the ALmighty God. John 20:17 Jesus said that Jehovah is his God and our God
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 states that there are many gods in the heaven and on earth, but to us (the first century Christians, Jesus and the Jehovah's Witnesses) there is only ONE GOD. The God, father, creator and head of Jesus, our lord.
1 Timothy 2:5 states that we have one God, Jehovah and one Lord, Jesus.
This is what we believe and it is left to you to believe whatever you choose because we have made our own choice.

brocab:
{1}firstly my bible usage is the truth, as long as the truth is revealed this is the bible you need.
{2} I am only insisting Jesus is God to you-because your bible and every other bible, tells me so.
{2 Corinthians 13;14} The undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God, and the sharing of the Holy Spirit be with all of you. {John 20:28} Thomas said to Him, My Lord and My God!
Notice in your bible-Lord and God are in the larger letters..
{3} But then you should be asking yourself this question, every verses I have found and written to you, have come out from the NWT?
{Mark 3:24} If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand..
Does this mean the JW's won't stand, because they are divided against themselves, why don't the JW's agree with the NWT bible, is it because the bible is against the watchtowers rules and regulations? "So if you were to study the scriptures, this would mean it will bring confusion upon you, "would it be dangerous for you to know your bible holds many hidden secrets, that if these hidden agenda's gets out, the watchtower will condemn you for eternity.
A brothers love will surely help save a brother sister and mother, that needs the Lord forevermore..
"Loving J" this is your destiny, is this to much to ask,for you to accept Christ, and allow Him to get to know you, save you, and experience God's love, God has en-stored for you.

Emusan:

I said it, it's very cleared that you don't understand your own post unfortunately you've started to derail your own thread but I won't allow that.
The simple question I asked after cited different reference from your OP was, DID JESUS HIMSELF PRONOUNCE THE ORIGINAL NAME WHEN HE READ THAT PORTION OF ISAIAH?

Will you ever be satisfied with any answer given? You are only here to put the JW down, ain't it? Jesus said that he made the name of the father known and he quoted the Hebrew scriptures to support that. Does that make a sense to you?

Emusan:
Points deducing from your OP are:
1) The original pronunciation name of God had been lost.

[quote author=Emusan post=62832826] 2) The fear of pronouncing God's name in vain had caused the Jews to substitute it for Lord or God.

For your knowledge, the Jews cite Exodus 20:7 You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain...
Who told you that it was the fear of pronouncing the name?

Emusan:
3) This substitution brought about the tradition of men being followed

Now if Jesus actually read that portion of Isaiah and the original name of God appeared there

Did Jesus actually follow the tradition of men by pronouncing what was substituted for God's name or He used the ORIGINAL PRONUNCIATION?

After all Jesus supposed to know the original pronunciation of the name because His Father will surely teach Him if His Father is so much concerned about it.
You can see that this is different from translations issue but since you people have been programmed only to defend the word JEHOVAH you couldn't understand my points.

You do not sound reasonable, so how can I understand your point? You are a hater who picks on the JW. You do not see any good in us and you feel pumped up like you come to compete to win a Nobel Laureate.
What part of the pronunciation is lost did you fail to understand? What are you pushing to get out of us? We boldly told you that the language in which the word was written is not spoken by anyone living. Language has rules and the only way to preserve information in the Bible is to translate it to the language that is understood. You are holding on to how did Jesus pronounce it when you cannot tell me how Jesus pronounced his own name in John 17:3. What branch of logic is that? We are not forcing the name on anyone. You make your choice either to accept it or decline it.

Emusan:
This is the simple question have been asking and none of you can't answer instead rumbling and perambulating here.
Can you show us where Jesus pronounce it?
Chech the attached PIC below to see how your own organization refuted your claim.

Some things are learned in elementary school. There is a difference between "to pronounce" and "to address". Having learned that, let me direct you to Matthew 4:7 Jesus said to him: “Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”
Now, what was written? You may look up Deuteronomy 6:16 for comparison.
Now, did Jesus pronounce the name? Yes!

Oh cool, thanks for that information, bro. He seems like an apostate.

Jozzy4:


Well done bro .

Don't mind Emusan, Just remember what 2 Timothy 2:23 said " REJECT foolish and ignorant debates "

Emusan himself uses the name " Jehovah " . so he is just playing cards with you to score cheap points .

You can visit this thread and see :https://www.nairaland.com/3326585/what-true-name-god-almighty.

Emusan:
Reading this your reply shows that you that opened this thread didn't know what you're doing before you opened it.

That is a very uncultured comment to make

Emusan:
1) Nobody is talking about TRANSLATIONS here.
2) We are still talking about the same HEBREW here since Jesus Himself is an Hebrew man.

Are you talking of an English pronunciation of a word written in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic without translating it? What in the real sense are you asking?

Emusan:
3) If I wrote few alphabets down in Yoruba i.e RASADI and as a Yoruba man the original speaker of that language told you an Igbo man that well the original PRONUNCIATION of this word is lost. Though I know it means the name of God! Everyone knows that this is not a problem for the Igbo man since the Igbo man will simply translate the meaning of that name to his own Language BUT where problem will arise is, CAN ANOTHER Yoruba man change the pronunciation? No!

Unbefitting illustration.
You cannot be asking how someone sounded a word in a language that no one speaks. What you do is translate and sound it in the language that you understand. Many names in the old testament were not mentioned in the New testament and yet they have English translations. How are those names sounded?

Emusan:
The OTHER NAMES no record that they lost their PRONUNCIATIONS only God's name. Which means almost every Hebrew child knows the ORIGINAL PRONUNCIATIONS of those OTHER NAMES.

Thank you! Then sound them to me. How did Jesus sound his name in the ORIGINAL PRONUNCIATION because that one too is also a controversy if you truly follow the record.

Emusan:
Besides, we are not talking about translations but PRONUNCIATION of the original name of God.

It is imprudent asking one for the pronunciation of a word in a language that neither you nor anyone living speaks. You must translate before you pronounce. Tell me, how did Jesus sound his name? You do not know yet you are pressing for a question that you cannot answer. You accept Jesus but that is not the original pronunciation but a translated version. Here are the words, YHWH, now sound it if you have the spirit of God in you.

Emusan:
How can you call God His actual name when you don't know how to pronounce the name?
Yet God couldn't restore the name.

You keep insulting God. You have the name as it was given to the Jews in Aramaic in front of you, yet you refute it blaming God for not restoring it. How else can one restore his name? Should he come down because you refute it? No! Time is passing and no one is forcing you to accept it. It is your choice to accept or refute.

Emusan:
Besides, since you've been talking about other language, do you mean THE HEBREW people of today would didn't know how to pronounce the original name of God. God will be angry with them for calling Him Lord or God?

First, they are called the Jews not Hebrew people. Secondly, are you referring to the Israelites or the Israelis? Do you know the difference? The Jews are not Christians and they refute Jesus as the son of God. Did they tell you that they do not know the name of God or it is not written in their books? Did you do your research before coming online to state that their translation of the name is different from what you yourself are refuting? Did you read my previous comment? Did you check to see the dead sea scroll in the Museum in Jerusalem attached in my previous comment or did you just rush to reply?

Emusan:
We were not told that OTHER NAMES lost their pronunciations but only God's name.
So stop coming with strawman argument.

Who is 'we' and who told you that?

Emusan:
So how does the PRONUNCIATION of the name lost again and the Apostles couldn't keep it?

Did the apostles keep the pronunciation of Jesus name and you yourself do not know it? You are going too far. Tell me how Jesus pronounced his own name?

Emusan:
Did Jesus Christ pronounce the original name or not that's the question?

Jesus pronounced it many times. In English it is translated Jehovah. Your mates are making efforts to learn the Aramaic and Hebrew languages to be more convinced of the Bible. Are you willing to go the length? I will recommend that to you since you refute the name translated in the language that you speak.

Emusan:
Nobody is talking about translations here.
You're the first person to talk about first century Christians, so go back to your post and see what I'm talking about.
This is the crust of the matter, you agreed it's lost but answer my question.
Did Jesus pronounce the original name when He read the book of Isaiah or follow the tradition of men by reading what the name has been change to?

The name was not changed it was translated. Do you really understand what translation is?

Emusan:
Tradition of men is replacing the name with either Lord or God according to your post.
So answer my questions above.

The tetragrammaton of the original name is right in front of you, YHWH. If you know hoW Moses himself sounded it, reveal it to us. Is the spirit of God in you? Has it been revealed to you? That is the same question you asked about the JW. We have made an effort to advertise the name that we believe in, Jehovah.

You know someone is obsessed when you see him on every thread with a negative thought to set you back in your faith. This rigmarole about how Jesus sounded the name of God is a ploy to waste time and derail fruitful conversations. They somehow believe that they are speaking the original language in which the scriptures were written. But little do they pay cognizance to the fact that English is a neo-language compared to many languages in the world.
They accept all the words translated in the Bible but JEHOVAH. A very clear indication that Satan is at work. Some people go as far as accepting Jehovah-Jireh but when you separate the two words, they refute the first part of it. When you ask them how Jesus pronounced his own name, they abort the conversation because of fear that questioning the name might attract the unknown. Some people never knew that Jesus is an English name translated from another language. If we have to unearth all the names in the Bible and how they were actually pronounced, then there will be no Bible in English and also in Arabic.

It would be nice if you could just type and stop coloring everything. Highlight is made for KEY points. I want to ask, what is your obsession with the NWT all about? Do you find the verse that you quoted missing in the NWT published by Jehovah's witnesses?

If you say that Jehovah is Jesus, I will not argue with you on that. I simply want to refer you to Jesus' words in Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

I reckon that your knowledge of English is sound. There are 2 pronouns emboldened above. What persons are they?

John 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative... because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

I want you to compare these with your world awarded Bible and tell me how many persons are referred in that verse.

Mark 13:32 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

How can you explain the above to someone in your church that your God does not know the date that he will destroy the wicked.

Can you tell Jesus that he is lying in John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God

Have you you realized that?

John 20:17 Jesus said, "...I am ascending... to my God and your God.'"

As a Christian who claims to follow Jesus, Did you hear his voice in John 20:17? John 10:27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
"...There are many “gods” and many “lords” , yet for us (FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANS AND JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES) there is but one God , the Father...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ

brocab:
It is not my personal point-These points were written way before I came into existence..
These points are written in your bible, you do agree Jehovah is our savior, then believe your bible, Jehovah is Jesus in the flesh.
{Isaiah 9:6} “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us, and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

TBH I did not read this voluminous histoire de la guerre.
Here are the 3 questions and keep your answers short and precise:

1. What Bible translation do you use or would you recommend?
2. Are you insisting that Jesus is God?
3. Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is referred to as "God the son" as opposed to "son of God"?

brocab:
You quoted two verses {John 17:3. 20:17} Just to argue against the rest of these verses that is also written in the NWT bible, and are choosing to fight against them.
I will rewrite them again, for you, these are written in the NWT bible, are you trying to tell me just adding two verses to the list, your bible is actually contradicting itself?
(All verses are quoted directly from the Jehovah’s Witnesses New World Translation.) God's Glory.
(Verses regarding God the Father)
{Isaiah 42:8}“I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.”
{Isaiah 48:11} “…And to no one else, shall I give my own glory.” "Not even Jesus?
(Verses regarding Jesus)
{John 8:54}“…It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is YOUR God”
{John 16:14} “That one will glorify me…”
{John 17:1} “…Father, the hour has come; glorify your son…”
{John 17:5} “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
{Philippians 2:10} “so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground”
{Hebrews 5:5} “So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him; ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.”
The Savior
(About the Father)
{Isaiah 43:3} “For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Savior.”
{Isaiah 43:11} “I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior.”
{Isaiah 45:21} “Is it not I, Jehovah besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me?”
(About Jesus)
{Luke 2:11} “because there was born to you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord…”
{Acts 13:23} “From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus.”
{Titus 1:4} “…May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
{Whose name are we to have faith in? (said about Jesus or by Jesus)
{John 14:12} “Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do…”
{Acts 4:12} “Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
{Acts 26:18} “…and inheritance among those sanctified by [their] faith in me.”
{Revelation 2:13} “I know where you are dwelling, that is where the throne of Satan is, and yet you keep on holding fast my name, and you did not deny your faith in me…”
{John 20:28} “In answer Thomas said to him: My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: Because you have seen me have you believed?
{John 20:31} “ But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing YOU may have life by means of his name.”
{Acts 2:38}“Peter [said] to them: ‘Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...”
{1 John 3:23} “Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ…”
Created or Creator?

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jehovah created Jesus as an angel, and that Jesus then created all other things. What do the scriptures say?(About the Father)
{Isaiah 66:2} “Now all these things my own hand has made, so that all these came to be.”
{Isaiah 44:24}“…I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens, by myself…”
(About Jesus)
{John 1:3} “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” If all things came into existence through Jesus, He could not have been created because He is included in the “all things.”
Status, Names and Titles of Jesus and Jehovah
{Isaiah 9:6} “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us, and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
{Revelation 1:8} “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
{Revelation 1:17-18} “…I am the First and the Last, and the living one, and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys to death and of Hades.”
{Revelation 2:8} “…These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last, who became dead, and came to life [again]”{Revelation 22:12-16} “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end…I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.”
{Revelation 21:6-7}“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”
If Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega (the first and last Greek letters), then the “first and the last” must refer to Jehovah, so the Witnesses claim. But when did Jehovah become dead? The only “first and last” who died and lived again is Jesus.
{Hebrews 1:13} “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?

Give me a proof to the clues. That is all I ask, Mr. Sage. Tell me the politicians that we lobby and for what. Is it Buhari or Saraki? Tell me!

delishpot:


You are embarrassing your self if you would hide your head in sand instead of going to Google and typing. "Jehova witness face recognition bomb" "WTS owns stock/shares" "WTS lobbying politicians" and read up.
I can't post links. I no get time. Feel free to act ignorant even if[b] I have thrown clues at you.[/b] I am sure your decision to play ignorant would help make you feel less guilty.

What really is your point, that Jesus is God, yeah?

brocab:
As I said: your argument is with the watchtower, you quoted two verses, but you refuse to believe those others scriptures that's is written from your own bible that proves Jesus is God and walked among men?
How can I support you, When you are not making any sense-you are denying the NWT bible..

You are making a mockery of yourself online. If you cannot provide evidence of the intense allegation why not let me discover them myself online? You shouldn't have posted it on my thread. Give me evidence and you cannot. But you can tell me the negative stories. Hollow beats louder.

delishpot:


Go check the internet. Start from Google incase you are too ignorant on how things work. Type your question on Google and read up. I don't have breast to breast feed you.

You seem to have lost Bible. We are only conversing. You raised some issues and I asked you a question, why run to YouTube? I have seen all those videos years ago. Use your Bible to buttress your points not YouTube. No one is arguing on the verses in the Bible. Can you read the verses that I quoted in your on Bible?

brocab:
I repeat it again-(All verses are quoted directly from the Jehovah’s Witnesses New World Translation bible.)
I repeat "These verses came directly out of the NWT Bible, "if you still insist to argue your point of view, over it, then turn the page?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7U4i8LnOow

Still you go on equivocating with slanderous motives. How can I take anything from a biased mind who is keen on libeling others. I asked for a proof and you are telling me that you go online to check.Check what? Where? Are we both not online sharing the same information that others digest? When you have no evidence to back a lie you only end up as a pile of disgrace to yourself.
You come from no reliable source, my friend. Do you know the extent of allegation that you vomited? Do you know that you could go to jail for such slanderous comments if one decides to sue? Be wise! Not everyone will ignore such defamation of reputation the way the Jehovah's Witnesses handle it. You may get a pass with them but do not let this vile thought sink into you, Mr. Educator.

delishpot:


Let me educate you a little. When I get any info, Even if it's half info, I go online to check what the world is saying about it. I do not feel on the word of someone I consider spiteful towards a thing. What of I give you wrong info? Would you accept it without your own investigation?

The leadership, as in WTS They invest, they buy stock and collect dividend. They have investment in face recognition bomb production. They lobby governments, they influence decisions 9f govt. Yes you may not know it because they have kept you ignorant of those things unless you investigate by yourself.

Emusan:

So the actual pronunciation is not known but JWs decided to follow the tradition of men to use Jehovah just because it has a long history in the English language.
If God is so concerned about His name, why must the pronunciation lost?
Why God didn't reveal the original pronunciation to Russell or the governing body?

The shade of it all in the last line, uh huh
Well, there are many names in the Bible that have also been translated to other languages and accepted. No one in the world today speaks Aramaic used in writing the first part of the Bible. The argument goes likewise for many other names including Jesus.
Revelation 9:11 "They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·badʹdon, but in Greek he has the name A·polʹlyon."
The above scriptural verse gives us a clear indication of God's acceptance of translations of names to a language that is understood and accepted. There are many names that are pronounced differently from its original language today and they are widely accepted for example the popular Paul and Peter are Pavlos-Paulo-Poli-Bul-Pablo-Paul; Cephas-Petros- Pierre- Peter. So, why not Jehovah God? The pronunciation does little as the Egyptians, the Ethiopians, the Arabians, Babylonians etc spoke their own languages and they were able to sound the name, which most likely would have come off with discrepancies in pronunciation. God is looking for intent and not our weaknesses in the sound. As long as we make an effort to call him by his actual name, he understands. Do not get stuck in this obsession like the Qumran faithfuls waiting for the Messiah in their caves when he has come and gone.
For a fact, God is concerned about his name hence Exodus 3:15 "..."This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation."

Emusan:

The scripture recorded that Jesus was given the book of Isaiah to read and according to your organization YHWH appeared in where Jesus read.
So how does Jesus pronounce it?
Did Jesus follow the tradition of men or used the original pronunciation?
Because it's evident that the original pronunciation had been lost long before Jesus Christ.

Smart question! Sadly, it also pokes you in the eye as well. If you yourself would believe in YHWH, how then did Jesus sound YHWH?
Well, in our translation of the Bible we restored the divine name to its original places and recently, in 2011 the King James Bible has also done the same. The Bible as you may know has endured many trials and many sinister minds have tried to change the texts in the scripture to accommodate their philosophies or pagan doctrines. I will attach a Masoretic text for you to ponder over. We do not speak the language that Jesus spoke today. How would you even be able to digest that if someone told you when you cannot accept the translated Jehovah? How do you get along with other names without asking how Jesus pronounced them? Do you have a score with the name? Have you ever question how Jesus sounded his own name? Do you care how we now arrived at all other names in the Bible?

Emusan:
Since God doesn't want us to follow the tradition of men, Jesus would've set the example.
So did Jesus pronounce the original name or not?

John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Jesus made the name known while he was on earth. And yes, he is still making it known today. Jehovah's witnesses find delight in the name, Jehovah and we are proud to advertise it amidst opposition, ridicule and persecution.
Pagans took the name out and tried to suppress it so that the truth will not shine. But, here we are talking about the name. What a victory for God.

Emusan:
The problem here which you failed to see is that, if first century Hebrew Christians would pronounce God's name as YEHOH-SHU`A, it's still the pronunciation according to the tradition of men NOT the original LOST PRONUNCIATION.

There is another problem that you might have skipped. Yehoshua is translated as Jesus and not Jehovah. So, which first century Christians are you referring to?

Emusan:
The same principle can't be applied here.
In summary:
Did original pronunciation of God's name lost?

Yes, the original pronunciation of the name is lost.

Emusan:
If God is so concerned about His name, why did He allow it to be lost?

The biggest travesty here is believing that all other names that you pronounce are in the original language. You do not speak that language and you cannot observe the rules as to know what syllable to stress and what not to. Jesus is not the right pronunciation of Yehoshua; Cephas is not the right pronunciation of Peter; Jehoshaphat, Jerusalem, David, etc name it!. When you sound any of these words, do not think that you are speaking a first century language. That is how translation works. Olorun, Chineke, Allah, Oghene have one string attaching them together and that is translation. Nothing is lost in the meaning but the language.
Think for a while that you are translating bread in the Bible in Nigerian languages. Are you going to tell a Yoruba man that the sound of bread in his language is false because it does not sound similar to that in Igbo language?
A doubter would argue that these two names "A·badʹdon and A·polʹlyon" are different. Same goes for Cephas and Peter. And these are recorded in the Bible. The Masoretic text which was written during Jesus' earthly time gives us a clear revelation of the sound of the name and when translated, we arrive at Jehovah.

Emusan:
How did Jesus pronounce the name, is it according to the tradition of men or used the original pronunciation?

What do you mean by tradition of men? Do you want God to come down to pronounce it for you? This is a transliteration of the tetragrammaton YHWH which is God's name in the original language. Let me attach also a copy of the Aramaic text as it was recorded. Please, bring a change to this so-called tradition of men and help the world to pronounce it according to your supposed tradition of God. Check the attached below.

Some Bible translations use the word “hell” for the Hebrew word “Sheol” and the matching Greek word “Hades,” both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27) Many people believe in a fiery hell, as shown in the religious artwork accompanying this article. However, the Bible teaches otherwise.

Those in hell are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol.”—Ecclesiastes 9:10.
Good people go to hell. The faithful men Jacob and Job expected to go there.—Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13.
Death, not torment in a fiery hell, is the penalty for sin. “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7.
Eternal torment would violate God’s justice. (Deuteronomy 32:4) When the first man, Adam, sinned, God told him that his punishment would simply be to pass out of existence: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God would have been lying if he were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell.
God does not even contemplate eternal torment. The idea that he would punish people in hellfire is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.”—1 John 4:8; Jeremiah 7:31.

Jehovah is the true God of the Bible, the Creator of all things. (Revelation 4:11) The prophets Abraham and Moses worshipped him, as did Jesus. (Genesis 24:27; Exodus 15:1, 2; John 20:17) He is the God, not just of one people, but of “all the earth.”—Psalm 47:2.

Jehovah is God’s unique name as revealed in the Bible. (Exodus 3:15; Psalm 83:18) It comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a number of scholars suggest that the name means “He Causes to Become.” This definition well fits Jehovah’s role as the Creator and the Fulfiller of his purpose. (Isaiah 55:10, 11) The Bible also helps us to know the Person behind the name Jehovah, especially his dominant quality of love.—Exodus 34:5-7; Luke 6:35; 1 John 4:8.

The name Jehovah is an English translation of the Hebrew name for God—the four letters יהוה (YHWH), known as the Tetragrammaton. The exact pronunciation of the divine name in ancient Hebrew is not known. However, the form “Jehovah” has a long history in the English language, first appearing in William Tyndale’s Bible translation of 1530. *

Why is the pronunciation of God’s name in ancient Hebrew unknown?

Ancient Hebrew was written without vowels, using only consonants. The Hebrew-speaking reader could easily provide the appropriate vowels. However, after the Hebrew Scriptures (“Old Testament”) were completed, some Jews adopted the superstitious belief that it was wrong to utter God’s personal name. When they read aloud a scripture that contained God’s name, they substituted expressions such as “Lord” or “God.” As centuries passed, this superstition spread and the ancient pronunciation was eventually lost. *

Some feel that the divine name was pronounced “Yahweh,” while others suggest different possibilities. A Dead Sea Scroll containing a portion of Leviticus in Greek transliterates the name Iao. Early Greek writers also suggest the pronunciations Iae, I·a·beʹ, and I·a·ou·eʹ, but none of these can be proved to be the pronunciation used in ancient Hebrew. *

Misconceptions about God’s name in the Bible

Misconception: Translations that use “Jehovah” have added this name.

Fact: The Hebrew word for God’s name in the form of the Tetragrammaton appears some 7,000 times in the Bible. * Most translations arbitrarily remove God’s name and replace it with a title such as “Lord.”

Misconception: Almighty God does not need a unique name.

Fact: God himself inspired Bible writers to use his name thousands of times, and he directs those who worship him to use his name. (Isaiah 42:8; Joel 2:32; Malachi 3:16; Romans 10:13) In fact, God condemned false prophets who tried to make people forget his name.—Jeremiah 23:27.

Misconception: Following the tradition of the Jews, God’s name should be removed from the Bible.

Fact: It is true that some Jewish scribes refused to pronounce the divine name. However, they did not remove it from their copies of the Bible. In any case, God does not want us to follow human traditions that deviate from his commandments.—Matthew 15:1-3.

Misconception: The divine name should not be used in the Bible because it is not known exactly how to pronounce it in Hebrew.

Fact: This line of reasoning assumes that God expects people who speak different languages to pronounce his name identically. However, the Bible indicates that God’s worshippers in the past who spoke different languages pronounced proper names differently.

Consider, for example, the Israelite judge Joshua. First-century Christians who spoke Hebrew would have pronounced his name Yehoh·shuʹaʽ, while those who spoke Greek would have said I·e·sousʹ. The Bible records the Greek translation of Joshua’s Hebrew name, showing that Christians followed the sensible course of using the form of proper names common in their language.—Acts 7:45; Hebrews 4:8.

The same principle can be applied to translating the divine name. Far more important than the exact pronunciation chosen is that God’s name be given its rightful place in the Bible.

God is able to see everything and to act anywhere he chooses. (Proverbs 15:3; Hebrews 4:13) However, the Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent​—that is, present everywhere, in all things. Instead, it shows that he is a person and that he resides in a dwelling place.

God’s form: God is a spirit person. (John 4:​24) He is invisible to humans. (John 1:​18) Visions of God recorded in the Bible consistently portray him as having a distinct location. He is never depicted as existing everywhere.​—Isaiah 6:​1, 2; Revelation 4:​2, 3, 8.
God’s dwelling place: God resides in the spirit realm, which is distinct from physical creation. Within that realm, God has a “dwelling place in the heavens.” (1 Kings 8:​30) The Bible mentions an occasion when spirit creatures “entered to take their station before Jehovah,” * showing that in a sense, God resides at a specific location.​—Job 1:6.
If God is not omnipresent, can he really care for me personally?

Yes. God cares deeply about individuals. Although he lives in the spirit realm, God notices those on earth who truly want to please him, and he acts in their behalf. (1 Kings 8:​39; 2 Chronicles 16:9) Consider how Jehovah demonstrates his concern for sincere worshippers:

When you pray: Jehovah can hear your prayer the moment you say it.​—2 Chronicles 18:31.
When you are depressed: “Jehovah is close to the brokenhearted; he saves those who are crushed in spirit.”​—Psalm 34:18.
When you need direction: Jehovah “will give you insight and instruct you” by means of his Word, the Bible.​—Psalm 32:8.
Misconceptions about omnipresence

Misconception: God is present everywhere in creation.

Fact: God dwells neither on the earth nor elsewhere in the physical universe. (1 Kings 8:​27) It is true that the stars and other creative works “are declaring the glory of God.” (Psalm 19:1) However, God does not inhabit his creation any more than an artist lives in his painting. Still, a painting can tell us something about the artist who made it. Similarly, the visible world tells us about the Creator’s “invisible qualities,” such as his power, wisdom, and love.​—Romans 1:​20.

Misconception: God must be omnipresent in order to know all things and be all-powerful.

Fact: God’s holy spirit, or active force, is God’s power in action. Through his holy spirit, God can perceive and do anything, anywhere, at any time, without being present in person.​—Psalm 139:7.

Misconception: Psalm 139:8 teaches that God is omnipresent by saying: “If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there, and if I were to make my bed in the Grave, look! you would be there.”

Fact: This scripture is not talking about God’s location. It poetically teaches that no place is too remote for God to act in our behalf.

Do Christians decide how to celebrate Jesus or as Christians do they follow the steps of Jesus and his commands?

Originakalokalo:
We have decided to choose a day to celebrate him.
We celebrate the Savior of the world.
His mission and love.
It doesn't matter the day we choose.

there are many gods, but to true Christians, there in one God who is Jehovah and one Lord, Jesus.
1 Corinthians 8:6

The Bible does not give a specific date for the birth of Jesus Christ, as these reference works show:

“The true birth date of Christ is unknown.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
“The exact date of Christ’s birth is not known.”—Encyclopedia of Early Christianity.
While the Bible does not directly answer the question, ‘When was Jesus born?’ it does describe two events surrounding his birth that lead many to conclude that he was not born on December 25.

Not in winter

The registration. Shortly before Jesus was born, Caesar Augustus issued a decree ordering “all the inhabited earth to be registered.” Everyone had to register in “his own city,” which might have required a journey of a week or more. (Luke 2:1-3 ) That order—probably made to support taxation and military conscription—would have been unpopular at any time of year, but it is unlikely that Augustus would have provoked his subjects further by forcing many of them to make long trips during the cold winter.
The sheep. Shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks.” (Luke 2:8 ) The book Daily Life in the Time of Jesus notes that flocks lived in the open air from “the week before the Passover [late March]” through mid-November. It then adds: “They passed the winter under cover; and from this alone it may be seen that the traditional date for Christmas, in the winter, is unlikely to be right, since the Gospel says that the shepherds were in the fields.”
In early fall

We can estimate when Jesus was born by counting backward from his death on Passover, Nisan 14 in the spring of the year 33 C.E. (John 19:14-16) Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his three-and-a-half-year ministry, so he was born in the early fall of 2 B.C.E.—Luke 3:23.

Why is Christmas on December 25?
Since there is no evidence that the birth of Jesus Christ occurred on December 25, why is Christmas celebrated on this date? The Encyclopædia Britannica says that church leaders probably chose it “to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the ‘birthday of the unconquered sun,’” at the time of the winter solstice. According to The Encyclopedia Americana, many scholars believe that this was done “in order to make Christianity more meaningful to pagan converts.”

brocab:
Well I have got your attention-and allow me to say, if there's anybody out there who are confused about becoming a Jehovah witness, please read and learn more about the NWT Bible, and ask yourselves this Question: "I am a Jehovah's Witness. Why should I consider becoming a Christain?"
Answer: Perhaps the most important commonality between Evangelical Christians and Jehovah’s Witnesses is our belief and trust in the Bible as the ultimate authority inspired by God, on issues concerning God and His expectations for us. While we may understand things differently, Jehovah’s Witnesses are to be highly commended for their dependence on and diligence in studying the Holy Scriptures to know God and His will. Like the Bereans, we would be wise to examine all things in life, in light of the Scriptures.
To that end, we shall examine verses of the New World Translation (the version of the Bible published by their Watchtower Society) to clear up some common misunderstandings.
A Rose by Any Other Name…
Christians get their name from being followers and worshipers of Jesus Christ, first called “Christians” in Antioch during Paul’s ministry
{Acts 11:26} Paul repeatedly made it clear that to be a Christian was to be a witness to men concerning the person of Christ, to be a witness to the words and works of Christ.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, believe that we are to focus our worship exclusively on God the Father (who is referred to in some Bible translations as “Jehovah”). The name Jehovah, however, was a hybrid name created by Christians by adding vowels to the tetragrammaton YHWH, which was the original rendering of we now know as Yahweh.

Very good! What Bible translation do you use or would you recommend?

brocab:
Evangelical Christians understand Jesus to be God in all His fullness, equal in deity but different in function from God the Father. Christians acknowledge that one of the historic names for God the Father is Jehovah; however, there are many other names and titles that the Scriptures use in reference to God the Father.
Jehovah’s Witnesses understand Jesus to be Michael the Archangel, {So of course they preach another Jesus} and categorically deny His deity. As we shall see, if we understand Jesus to be anything other than God, many verses present obvious contradictions. However, we know that God’s Word is inerrant and does not contradict itself.
Therefore, we must understand the truth of God’s Word in a way that is consistent and faithful to His revelation.
You will notice that these same verses lack any contradiction if we understand Jesus to be God the Son—the fullness of God in bodily form—who surrendered His rights to be the suffering servant and sacrifice for our sin.
(All verses are quoted directly from the Jehovah’s Witnesses New World Translation.) God's Glory.
(Verses regarding God the Father)
{Isaiah 42:8}“I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.”
{Isaiah 48:11} “…And to no one else, shall I give my own glory.” "Not even Jesus?
(Verses regarding Jesus)
{John 8:54}“…It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is YOUR God”
{John 16:14} “That one will glorify me…”
{John 17:1} “…Father, the hour has come; glorify your son…”
{John 17:5} “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
{Philippians 2:10} “so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground”
{Hebrews 5:5} “So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him; ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.”
The Savior
(About the Father)
{Isaiah 43:3} “For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Savior.”
{Isaiah 43:11} “I am Jehovah and besides me there is no savior.”
{Isaiah 45:21} “Is it not I, Jehovah besides whom there is no other God; a righteous God and a Savior, there being none excepting me?”
(About Jesus)
{Luke 2:11} “because there was born to you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord…”
{Acts 13:23} “From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus.”
{Titus 1:4} “…May there be undeserved kindness and peace from God [the] Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”
{Whose name are we to have faith in? (said about Jesus or by Jesus)
{John 14:12} “Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do…”
{Acts 4:12} “Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
{Acts 26:18} “…and inheritance among those sanctified by [their] faith in me.”
{Revelation 2:13} “I know where you are dwelling, that is where the throne of Satan is, and yet you keep on holding fast my name, and you did not deny your faith in me…”
{John 20:28} “In answer Thomas said to him: My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: Because you have seen me have you believed?
{John 20:31} “ But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing YOU may have life by means of his name.”
{Acts 2:38}“Peter [said] to them: ‘Repent, and let each one of YOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ...”
{1 John 3:23} “Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ…”
Created or Creator?

In conclusion, having said all about the JW, what really is your point? That Jesus is God, yeah?

brocab:

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jehovah created Jesus as an angel, and that Jesus then created all other things. What do the scriptures say?(About the Father)
{Isaiah 66:2} “Now all these things my own hand has made, so that all these came to be.”
{Isaiah 44:24}“…I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens, by myself…”
(About Jesus)
{John 1:3} “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” If all things came into existence through Jesus, He could not have been created because He is included in the “all things.”

Just imagine the contradiction above. You read it, yet you contradicted. Do you doubt the Bible that you read? Why did you read John 1:3 if you do not believe it?
I emboldened the key word for you to ponder over. All things came through Jesus. If you are still doubting the Bible, check Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is referred to as "God the son" as opposed to "son of God"?

brocab:
Status, Names and Titles of Jesus and Jehovah
{Isaiah 9:6} “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us, and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
{Revelation 1:8} “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
{Revelation 1:17-18} “…I am the First and the Last, and the living one, and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys to death and of Hades.”
{Revelation 2:8} “…These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last, who became dead, and came to life [again]”{Revelation 22:12-16} “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end…I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.”
{Revelation 21:6-7}“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free. Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.”
If Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega (the first and last Greek letters), then the “first and the last” must refer to Jehovah, so the Witnesses claim. But when did Jehovah become dead? The only “first and last” who died and lived again is Jesus.
{Hebrews 1:13} “But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said ‘Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet”?

Jehovah is the only one referred to as Alpha and Omega and the one seated on the throne. I am still asking if you actually read the stuff that you post online before posting them?

brocab:
Truth and Unity
Jesus’ substitutionary atonement was accepted for one reason: God accepts only His own righteousness. The righteousness of a man or an angel is insufficient to hold up to the holy and perfect standard of God’s righteous law. Jesus was the only suitable sacrifice because He was the righteousness of God, and as God’s law required shed blood, Jesus took on flesh so that He might be a ransom for all who believe in His name.
Notice that if we understand Jesus to be God incarnate, then all the above verses can be understood to be true and mutually consistent in their claims. They can also be understood clearly with plain reason, taken at face value. However, if we attempt to suggest that Jesus is something less than God—Michael the archangel—then these verses are mutually exclusive and cannot both be true, when taken in their natural context.
Therefore, the truth of God’s Word necessitates that we must come to another understanding in which all Scripture is unified, interconnected, interdependent, inerrant and true. That unifying truth can be found only in the person and deity of Jesus Christ. May we see the truth revealed in Scripture as it is, not as we would each have it to be, and may God receive all the glory.

Can you tell Jesus that he is lying in John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
The above was Jesus words. Could he be lying? Could he probably be lying when he corroborated that in John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Are you trying to teach Jesus the scriptures or help him explain the word that he came to proclaim?
Are you going to compel him to be your God?
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Bro, you said nothing against me, but against God. You preach love yet you are calling the Jehovah's witness a cult. Is that how you show love? I just cannot catch you on your tail because you keep slipping out the whole time. I would want your points presented in an uncomplicated manner so that we can decide the trajectory of our conversation. If this forum is about learning, why have you not been able to answer any of my questions so far?

brocab:
Finely the dead had risen? Are you confused, you haven't a clue about this forum, and why we are here-this forum is about learning-it isn't about abuse-love your neighbour, try to open up your heart, and seek the Kingdom of God.
And besides if I have said something against you, I repent-forgive me, but if I haven't, then let your troubles return to you..
And besides if you are looking for favour from other Christians on this forum-then change from the cult you have chosen to believe in, and become a Christian..

TODAY the world nervously watches the Middle East. Rocket attacks, clashes of armed militias, and terrorist bombings are frequent occurrences. Add to this explosive mixture the very real possibility that nuclear weapons could be used. No wonder people everywhere are worried!

The world was also anxiously watching the Middle East in May of 1948. At that time, 62 years ago, the British mandate to occupy what was then called Palestine was ending, and war was imminent. The year before, the United Nations had authorized the creation of an independent Jewish State in a portion of the occupied territories. The surrounding Arab nations had vowed to prevent this at any cost. “The partition line shall be nothing but a line of fire and blood,” warned the Arab League.

It was Friday afternoon, May 14, 1948, at 4:00 p.m. The final hours of the British mandate were ticking away. In the Tel Aviv Museum, a small crowd of 350 onlookers were present by secret invitation for an eagerly anticipated announcement—the formal declaration of statehood for the modern-day nation of Israel. Security was tight, lest the numerous enemies of the fledgling State attack the proceedings.


David Ben-Gurion, May 14, 1948
David Ben-Gurion, the leader of Israel’s National Council, read The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel. It stated, in part: “We, members of the People’s Council, representatives of the Jewish Community of Eretz-Israel . . . by virtue of our natural and historic right and on the strength of the Resolution of the United Nations General Assembly, hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.”

A Fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?
Some Evangelical Protestants believe that the modern State of Israel thus fulfilled a Bible prophecy. For example, in the book Jerusalem Countdown, clergyman John Hagee states: “This momentous occasion had been recorded by the pen of the prophet Isaiah, saying, ‘A nation shall be born in a day.’ (See Isaiah 66:8.) . . . It was the greatest moment in prophetic history of the twentieth century. It was living evidence for all men to see that the God of Israel was alive and well.”

Is that statement true? Did Isaiah 66:8 predict the establishment of the modern State of Israel? Was May 14, 1948, the “greatest moment in prophetic history of the twentieth century”? If the modern State of Israel is still God’s chosen nation, and if he is using it to fulfill Bible prophecies, this would certainly be of interest to Bible students everywhere.

Isaiah’s prophecy states: “Who has heard of a thing like this? Who has seen things like these? Will a land be brought forth with labor pains in one day? Or will a nation be born at one time? For Zion has come into labor pains as well as given birth to her sons.” (Isaiah 66: The verse is clearly foretelling the sudden birth of an entire nation, as if in a single day. But who would cause this birth? The next verse gives a clue: “‘As for me, shall I cause the breaking through and not cause the giving birth?’ says Jehovah. ‘Or am I causing a giving birth and do I actually cause a shutting up?’ your God has said.” Jehovah God makes it clear that the dramatic birth of the nation would be his doing.

Modern Israel is governed as a secular democracy that officially makes no claim to rely on the God of the Bible. Did the Israelis in 1948 recognize Jehovah God as the one responsible for their declaration of statehood? They did not. Neither the name of God nor even the word “God” was mentioned anywhere in the original text of the proclamation. The book Great Moments in Jewish History says this of the final text: “Even at 1:00 P.M. when the National Council met, its members could not agree about the wording of the proclamation of statehood. . . . Observant Jews wanted a reference to ‘the God of Israel.’ Secularists balked. Compromising, Ben-Gurion decided that the word ‘Rock’ would appear instead of ‘God.’”

The modern State of Israel to this day bases its claim to statehood on a UN resolution and what it calls the natural and historic right of the Jewish people. Is it reasonable to expect that the God of the Bible would perform the greatest prophetic miracle in the 20th century in behalf of a people who refuse to give him credit?

How Does the Modern Claim to Statehood Compare?
Modern Israel’s secular attitude contrasts sharply with the situation in 537 B.C.E. Back then, the nation of Israel was indeed ‘reborn’ as if in a day after being devastated and depopulated by the Babylonians 70 years earlier. At that time, Isaiah 66:8 was strikingly fulfilled when the Persian conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus the Great, authorized the return of the Jews to their homeland.—Ezra 1:2.

The Persian King Cyrus recognized Jehovah’s hand in the matter in 537 B.C.E., and those who returned to Jerusalem did so for the express purpose of restoring the worship of Jehovah God and rebuilding his temple. The modern State of Israel has never officially declared any such desire or intention.

Still God’s Chosen Nation?
In the year 33 C.E., the fleshly nation of Israel lost its claim to be God’s chosen nation when it rejected Jehovah’s Son, the Messiah. The Messiah himself put it this way: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her . . . Look! Your house is abandoned to you.” (Matthew 23:37, 38) Jesus’ statement came true when in 70 C.E., Roman legions destroyed Jerusalem along with its temple and priesthood. But what was to become of God’s purpose to have a “special property out of all other peoples, . . . a kingdom of priests and a holy nation”?—Exodus 19:5, 6.

The apostle Peter, himself a fleshly Jew, answered that question in a letter written to Christians—both Gentile and Jewish. He wrote: “You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession,’ . . . for you were once not a people, but are now God’s people; you were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.”—1 Peter 2:7-10.

Christians who were selected by holy spirit thus belong to a spiritual nation, their membership not being determined by birth or geographic location. The apostle Paul described the matter this way: “Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God.”—Galatians 6:15, 16.

Whereas the modern nation of Israel offers to confer citizenship upon any natural or converted Jew, citizenship in what the Bible calls “the Israel of God” is given only to those who are “obedient and sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:1, 2) Speaking of these members of the Israel of God, or spiritual Jews, Paul wrote: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.”—Romans 2:28, 29.

That verse helps us understand a controversial comment Paul made. In his letter to the Romans, Paul explained how the unbelieving natural Jews were like branches of a symbolic olive tree that were lopped off so that “wild” Gentile “branches” could be grafted in. (Romans 11:17-21) Concluding this illustration, he states: “A dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved.” (Romans 11:25, 26) Was Paul foretelling an eleventh hour mass conversion of the Jews to Christianity? Clearly, no such conversion has taken place.


What did Paul’s illustration of the olive tree mean?
By the expression “all Israel,” Paul meant all of spiritual Israel—Christians who have been selected by holy spirit. He was saying that the failure of the natural Jews to accept the Messiah would not thwart God’s purpose to have a spiritual ‘olive tree’ full of productive branches. This is in harmony with Jesus’ own illustration of himself as a vine whose nonproductive branches will be lopped off. Jesus said: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit.”—John 15:1, 2.

Although the establishment of the modern State of Israel was not foretold in the Bible, the establishment of the nation of spiritual Israel certainly was! If you identify and associate with that spiritual nation today, you will reap eternal blessings.—Genesis 22:15-18; Galatians 3:8, 9.

brocab:
You haven't the slightest idea, where this is leading too, the JW's never fully agreed on anything,

You must make a sense and present your point accordingly for someone to agree with you. So far, you have not presented anything worthy of understanding. How can I agree with a heretic purport that has no actual link to the message in the Bible?

brocab:
you can believe as much as you like, if you feel my pages don't support your needs, then turn away from my page, all at least study up the scriptures, instead of standing high and mighty, just looking at one verse and being picky on the others doesn't stop there, "how can one ever finish the race if you can't see the bible in front of you, the flesh is blind, but the Spirit gives light.

You should be able to make a lucid statement and not contradicting yourself. This is a public forum and you can be called out to answer what you put out here. You are just quoting the whole scriptures; some are not related to the point that you try to make and you are not making an effort to explain your points. You are equivocating and that is the point. I have to cut out some extras below to be able to follow up.

brocab:
Question: You talk about the "12" apostles/disciples - there were actually, 13, even discounting Judas Iscariot; Paul would make twelve, and Matthias, {Acts 1} being the thirteenth.
Response: On the issue of the "13" disciples, it is true that Peter and company "elected" Matthias to replace Judas, but not everything recorded in the Bible that individuals do is to be taken as ordained of God

Ludicrous! Bro, you are a receptacle of insinuation. Are you sure that you read before posting stuff online? How could you say that the election of Matthias is not ordained by God? So, if they had elected Paul, it would have been ordained by God, yeah? Shallow but insidious thought. Your thought is toxic. No Christian should pay heed to such thought. We were warned against your type in Colossians 2:8 Don't let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

brocab:
Matthias was no doubt a fine believer, but he was no apostle - except in the eyes of men (and erroneously so)

What offshoot of Christianity do you represent? I do not think other Christians on Nairaland will agree with you. You are indeed a dangerous weed that Jesus referred to in his illustration.
No one should take you seriously. You keep entangling your own self with piles of heresy. In your earliest comment above you said I shouldn't stand high and mighty but descend to this gruesome stench of dog mess? Bro, grab a Bible and get someone to help you understand it. Pray for God's holy spirit to guide you.

brocab:
Perhaps it would be more helpful to say about the apostles that "God never had more than 12". Finally, in the Greek text of {Acts 1:26}
This is also evident from the very next chapter at {Acts 2:14} where, in spite of Matthias' "election", Luke mentions "the eleven" instead "the twelve"–not until the calling of Paul, the genuine twelfth apostle, was the full complement again reached.

Do you have a beef with Matthias? Seriously, can you read what you typed above? Are you a Christian? You called the Jehovah's witnesses false, but judge your standing above by yourself. Bro, honestly I am surprised at you. Your knowledge of the Bible is a missile of 'new-clear' paganism. Get some help!

What race are you talking about?
Are you saying that you love God and your neigbours as yourself? Can you refer to yourself as a cultist as you call the Jehovah's witnesses? Regarding Luke 6:31, would you accept the same insults that you dish out to the JW?
It is difficult to read and understand your write-up and JW are trained to elucidate with poise. Out of love, we go from door to door teaching sincere-hearted ones. Only love could motivate millions to close their businesses, retire from active work or choose a low-paying career for the sake of spending more time discussing the Bible with people. It is our job to tell about Jehovah and his kingdom because Jesus gave us that command in Matthew 24:14.
Are you doing that? Take away the internet, have you ever visited a stranger to preach to him? Jehovah's witnesses go as far as the jungle in the amazon to teach the word of God. What sacrifice have you really done to prove your love apart from judging the JW on Nairaland?

brocab:
Have you JW's ever wondered why none of you ever try and finished a race, your doctrine is fiction, if your scholars really knew the scriptures, if they knew the Spirit, the Lord's commandments, love your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbour as yourselves. will be planted in your hearts that strong, no-cult could break up marriages nor families but bring God's people in lineament with the Word of God.
But that won't happen..

They are apostates. The do not want to be JW yet they cannot blend into any faith. They just want to tear the JW down. We welcome it. It has been this way over a century.
Once they see any thread with a reference to Jehovah's Witnesses they rush in to slander. Many of them have never had any close dealing with the JW yet they post lies just to blaspheme and put us down. When you ask for reasons for their comments you will be so surprised how void they sound.
Regarding the Nazi, You cannot sell another man's shoes when he is wearing it. There are over 6.8 million Jews in the world and thousands of books have been published by Jews about the Holocaust. Everyone is telling his own side of the story. The concentration camps were different. How many Jehovah's Witnesses were in the world at the time to compare us to the Jews. No one ever told the Jews that they were not the only ones killed. If you do not tell your story, it will be buried. All these twisting and comparison is to douse the intensity of suffering and death suffered by the Jehovah's witnesses. We know!

Peacefullove:


See that bold, I cannot laugh abeg

Many of them will fill your thread, I came to realize ex members of your religion are always hate driven and bitter . just wonder why they can't just join another church and move on .


But don't mind them , Its true many others were killed by the Nazi's , but if you choose to talk about yours . its no big deal . Even your Bible said ' do good to everybody , but ESPECIALLY people with whom you get the same faith '

Well, I admire your stand not to kill . sticking to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth .

2 Corinthians 12:10 So I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in times of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful.

2 Corinthians 6:8 through glory and dishonor, through bad report and good report. We are regarded as deceivers and yet we are truthful, 9 as unknown and yet we are recognized, as dying* and yet look! we live,+ as punished* and yet not handed over to death,+ 10 as sorrowing but ever rejoicing, as poor but making many rich, as having nothing and yet possessing all things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3M9BzrThpk