₦airaland Forum

shahydbinaliyu:
laughing.... you provoked him... you never screenshot that, he threatened you.. And are you dead? laughing ....

Sorry you quoted the wrong person...

dolphinheart:
Ok Bro, thanks, but if there is any issue you still like us to discuss, I'm free o .

Thanks a lot, trust me I will mention you if there is any issue. May be you might like to check on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/2239564/jehova-witnesses-want-join-church/2#32836019

If they could be more than ONE PRINCES how Micheal which supposed to be ONLY ARCHANGEL still be among the PRINCES?

Which one higher in rank Archangel or Chief prince?

If Archangel is higher than Chief prince, why would Micheal can be classified as ONE of the Chief princes again?

Which I believe, you don't even know that ARCH means Chief also:

Thank you very much, I was about making that explanation Archangel also mean Chief prince...and for the fact that the verse Dan. 10:13 says "13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, [size=16pt]one of the chief princes[/size], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia".. suggest that there is more than one archangel or cheif prince.

JMAN05:
Goodday Maam,

Your point is respected, however, since this book is of doubtful authenticity by many Christians, it cant be a good point especially for us who doubt its authenticity.

But well it is certain that..Jude quoted the book of Enoch, I also like studying the apocryphal books, they contain some explanation of biblical exegeses. Is good to go out of the box.

I also believe that their are more Chief princes (archangels) than just one as you have insinuated.

Instead of addressing the issue at hand someone here was comfortably lying in the face of truth calling Murtala Muhammed that got shot on his way coming back from Jumat mosque a Christian even Tafawa.

I smell lies, lies...liesssss

dolphinheart:
Having issues with quoting , pasting and replying with my phone, seems I be novice on how to do it. I wunt be quoting u directly , but pls not that my peply to this particular post will be titled maamin1

Lol..ok most mobile device are like dat. Will be waiting to read your replies.

To start with , there is an issue that has made me not to fully grasp ur explanation , and that is the use of the word "spirit/soul. What do you mean by "spirit/soul "? Does it mean "spirit and soul", "spirit or soul" or "spirit with soul"?is the spirit the same as the soul? If yes pls add bible prove and if no , can u tell us ur view of the difference?
Do the spirit and soul have the same eventuality , as in they go to the same place and experience the same condition after a mans death?

The soul and the spirit are not the same

I used it interchangeably as used in the bible. Even though our Bible uses the words soul and spirit interchangeably, there is a very distinct difference that we cannot ignore. These passages in God's Word that make a very clear distinction between the soul and the spirit:

Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Here the bible made it known that the Spirit,soul and Body are distinct from each other.

The moment we accept Christ, our spirits become brand new. We are a completely new person, we are born of God, and we are made alive with God:

2 Corinthians 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

This is speaking of our spirits, which are instantly made new the moment we accept Christ.

The Bible even tells us that the old man in us has died with Christ, and that we are raised to new life through Christ's resurrection:

Romans 6:2-6, "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (our spirits that were alive to sin), that the body of sin might be destroyed (speaking of the evil in our souls), that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Even though we have died to sin, and been raised to new life through Christ Jesus, our souls (that is, our minds) still need to be transformed and purified by the washing of the Word:

Ephesians 5:26, "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word."

Our souls are NOT born again!

The Bible is clear that even though our spirits are born of incorruptible seed, our minds (souls) still need to be purified, that is, cleansed:

1 Peter 1:22-23, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

Our spirit is instantly reborn and made new the moment we accept Christ, but the soul is not born again. Our souls are transformed by the renewing of our minds:

Romans 12:2, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Some closing thoughts

Our spirits are made right with God, and raised to new life the moment we accept Jesus, but our souls (minds) can carry much spiritual grime and dirt over from our past lifestyles. Our souls are transformed by the renewing of our minds and by the washing of the Word, as the Bible makes clear. This is why so many believers can continue to struggle with sin even after accepting Christ. Their souls still contain grime and dirt that needs to be removed and washed clean.

I read some scriptures in the bible and ill like you to respond to it if ur understanding is different from mine .
To me , this is What the bible say our condition will be when we die, I mean, what happens to man when he dies.

(Ecl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.)

This (to my understanding )explains that a man that is living knows that he will die, but the man that is dead knows nothing at all. so whichever part is the real man,or wherever it goes after death , it knows nothing! Talk less of experiencing any feeling in that place. If I'm wrong pls explain what that verse means when it said that the dead man knows nothing after death and relate it with ur view that he knows and experiences another condition and location when he dies.

How do you reconcile this with Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus?

These Christian sects believe that at death that awareness ceases until the resurrection. This belief fundamentally changes the theology around heaven, hell as well as reincarnation. The biblical authority quoted to support the belief is rather slim. In fact there is really only one scripture quoted. It is in Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (KJV)

You can't get plainer than that. The Dead know nothing. End of story. However, there are plenty of scriptures in both the old and New Testament that show that the dead are aware after death. Is this an example of Biblical contradiction? Not really. this statement wasn't made by a prophet of God nor was is it a quote from God through an angel or prophet. It is the musings of King Solomon while being depressed. It is a rhetorical remark made by a man who cried "vanities of vanities all is vanities." He admits to drinking in excess, having a thousand wives and concubines and having every luxury imaginable yet ultimately found his life unfulfilling. He even concludes at the end of his writings...

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. NIV.

In 1 Samuel 28 we have the story of Saul secretly going to the witch of Endor so that he could contact the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel. This of course is a forbidden art, not because it can't be done but that it is evil to contact the spirits of the dead using witchcraft. Despite the wickedness involved, Saul has the witch do the divination necessary to contact Samuel. Samuel is summoned and has the following words for Saul.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors-to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

If you read further in the story, the prophecy of the dead prophet turned out exactly as predicted. This shows us that the prophet Samuel was aware after death and was in contact with God even during death. Also Over a thousand years after the death of King Solomon, the Apostle John jouneyed to heaven in a vision and saw souls being aware they were dead. Specifically Revelations 6:9

"9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

In John's version he sees souls in heaven aware enough to know they were awaiting a new life with Christ.

(ecl 9:10 :Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.)

Some translations use sheol in place of grave here and so ill expect that sheol and grave mean the same thing and all men go there when they die. These verse helps me to understand that there is no work, device, knowledge, wisdom (some translation use reason, planning) in the grave/sheol where all humans , both good and bad, righteous or un-righteous go to when they die.
For a fact that it states that there is no knowledge in the grave, how do we align it with the view of people having knowledge of there condition in the grave ?

Luke 16:19-31 (NIV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In [HADES] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 " 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Both Lazarus and the rich man were aware after death. Both were in Hades (Called Sheol in the Old Testament). One was with Abraham in the good part of Hades and the Rich man was in the bad part of Hades. The important point is that after death they did not cease to be aware. Death is simply the separation of the spirit from the body. Death is not completely non-awareness. I might be wrong tho!

(Psalms 146:6
New American Standard
Bible

His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

King James Bible
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.)

Now this verse says when man dies , his spirit goes out , not that him himself goes out,the bible tells us that this spirit in man is same as the spirit in animals . He (the man himself that died )goes(returns) to the earth (where he came from ) and his thoughts perish, which to me means no more thinking in the grave. this goes contrary to ur view that people have experience in the grave/sheol.
Several other bible verses refer to this sheol as a place of darkness and silence and no mention of departments for good or bad people . Nor a place of prejudgement. The bible also says no one praise God in hell/sheol.

Finally I got the jeck..with this site "http://biblelight.net/death.htm" it explain with great number of bible verses..i think your stands in the state of the dead is correct. Take your time to go through it.

Now let's go. Back to ur explanation .

John 3:16, 18, 36, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Philippians 1:23 explains the way and process to everlasting life for,and what spirit anointed servants of God will gain when they serve God till the end . But those verses did not state when this will happen (this will be looked at when discusing resurection)

Now lets look at 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1
Thessalonians 4:13-17 to see if you are right with your analogy.as I qoute the verses ill be adding my view

1 Corinthians 15:50-54

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(here says flesh and blood cannot inherit Gods kingdom , that means flesh and blood cannot enter heaven . How come u feel that at a later date that the resurrected body , which will be, Flesh and blood (based on your explanation with the use of the word physical body) will be inherit Gods kingdom.
My view is that whatever form man takes to heaven after resurrection, it wunt be in the physical flesh and blood.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(this verse is simply telling us that those going to heaven shall not all go to sheol. It means some of those going to heaven will fall asleep and go to sheol and some wunt. Note this secret was revealed after jesus has ascended into heaven, which means that after jesus went to heaven, some going to heaven are in sheol and are still going there after they die. This negates ur view that after jesus resurrection, the righteous do not go to sheol after death. Before u say its the body that goes to sheol, pls note that the bible never said the soul goes to heaven after death , but goes down to sheol and can only go to heaven after resurection, irespective of whether the resurrection is imediately after death or at a later date.
"but we shall all be changed" means that no matter your condition at the appointed time of resurrection ,dead or alive , u will be changed from a physical body to a spiritual ,glorified one that can enter heaven.

52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
(this explains the time and process at which the first resurrection will occur)

Verse 53,54: For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on
immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(verse 44 explains this, which also nails your view of a physical body resurection at any time for those going to heaven)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
( as at the time these verse was written , jesus has gone to heaven and those who believe in him are still in sheol and still going there when they die )

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in
Jesus will God bring with him.
(God will, future Occurence, not God has ,so for numerous years after jesus ascension to heaven , no one that dies has immediately ascended to heaven )

Verse 15,16,17 explains that jesus will come to take them, and not take them along when he was resurrected . Thus there is a time period in which those who died after jesus resurection will go to Sheol first and not immediately to heaven after death as postulated by you.

To be continued

I never said anyone goes to heaven immediately after death.

Anyways the link to a sight I posted up there throws more light on the state of the dead. Thanks for your time have really learnt a great deal.

Ps 78:39, Ps 103:13-15
With this numerous scriptures where our creature has told us what we are , its still a wonder why some say we are spirits.
The scriptures still went on to explain that the spirit in man ( which enabled man to become animate) is the same spirit that is in animals and often refered to as breathe or life force.
This brings us to the issue of soul, and my question to you is :what is soul?, was man giving a soul?, and if yes , when ?

We are a spirit being, we live in a body and we possess a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul consists of our mind, will and emotions and as you can see this things are intangible(not physically sensed). Our bodies are obviously what we live in while we are here on earth(more like a vessel). How did demonic spirits vex and possess (control) people in the Bible? It was through their souls (minds, as in mental illness and insanity), and their bodies (as in the woman who had the spirit of infirmity).

Example of physical (bodily) demonic affliction: Luke 13:11, "And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself."

Example of mental (soul) demonic affliction: Matthew 17:15,18, "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatic, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water... And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour."

Now, about if man was given a soul and when is not mentioned anywhere in the bible as our consciousness of who/what we are comes alongside with our awareness as humans. Talking about animals having the same spirit (breath of life) as man is true, but dont forget that the spirit of man was specially breathed into man by God..Genesis 2:7 "7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." or the bold can also be said "and man became living consciousness". You might have to do more study on your own as this Topic of soul,spirit and afterlife is very complex.

You have not said anything on question 2b.(b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go .

The bible made mention about the spirit returning to God who gave it but the body is to the earth where it was taking from. While nothing about the soul was spoken of specifically.

Will update you on this later..and your other response, duty calls.

Shalom!

thisismike:
Jesus Christ is God.
This is the gospel and the key fact that made Christianity different from Islam.

Is.9:6- unto us a son is given and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace...

#may God gv us understanding

yes but Jesus is not the same person as Yahweh.

I have gone through this thread from the first page and noticed the JWs calling Jesus as same as Archangel Michael is very wrong, the bible made it clear who Michael is; nothing but an Angel of the lord. Saying he is the only archangel is another daring claim which is likely not to be true.

There are about seven archangels known in christian science but the earliest reference to a system of seven archangels as a group appears to be in Enoch I (the Book of Enoch) which is not part of the Jewish Canon but is prevalent in the Judaic tradition, where they are named as Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael. While this book of Enoch today is non-canonical in most Christian Churches,well I am not sure, but it was explicitly quoted in the New Testament ( Jude 1:14-15) in reference to (book of Enoch 27:2-3) and by many of the early Church Fathers. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical.

And I belief that there are as many archangels than the seven common ones mentioned, considering the 'Encyclopedia of Angels' that gives more detail of the nine angelic orders in which "Archangels" are second to the lowest rank. I feel this seven angels are the ones mentioned in Rev. 8:2-5
As they are closer to God's throne, tho! They were only referred to as 'angels' in that verse.

Questions
1. What does the bible say happens to us when we die/when we go to sheol.

First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).

Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are?
(b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go .

Of course our creator tells us exactly what we are..we are from the dust and to the dust we shall all return, while the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Gen.3:19 "19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Ecc.3:20 "20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

Ecc.12:7 "7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

This is all I can say through the bible for now.

3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ?

You are right but Heaven and Hell are greatly Contrasted, I still dont think any righteous soul will go to Hell but rather Sheol (place of the dead). You can refer back to my answer to your number 1.question

4. What is ressurection?

Ressurection as define by wiki..
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

Resurrection (from Latin resurrectio) is the concept of a living being coming back to life after death.

Daniel 12:2 summarizes the two very different fates facing mankind: “Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Everyone will be raised from the dead, but not everyone will share the same destiny. The New Testament reveals the further detail of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

Resurrection means to be raised from the dead (John 5:28,29). The word is used in different contexts in the Bible. Lazarus was raised from the dead (John 11:43). This is a resurrection; but it is not part of the resurrection that occurs when we receive our new bodies when Christ returns (1 Thess. 4:13-18) on the last day (John 6:39-44) when the last trumpet is blown (1 Cor. 15:51-55). Lazarus died again. The resurrection of Jesus is promissory in that as we know He was raised, so we will be raised also. In that context, Jesus is the only one who has received a resurrected body. That is why He is called the first-fruit from the dead (1 Cor. 15:20-23). We will receive our bodies either at the rapture or when Jesus returns to earth.

The resurrected body is not subject to death or sin. We know very little about it except what was manifested by Jesus after His resurrection, namely, that He was able to move about as He desired--in and out of rooms without the use of doors. Other than that, the rest is conjecture. Also read ( 1 Cor. 15).

Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).

The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

5 where is moses, David and all loyal servants of God that lived before jesus at this moment.

I will refer you to my answer to question number 4..i think we know little on the state of their destination as to this loyal servants of God.

6.(a) Does if not mean that humans can enter heaven without jesus dying for us if we believe that elijah and enoch went to heaven ?
(b) if elijah and enoch could make it to heaven, there will be no need of sacrifice cus that means can be used by all to enter heaven right ?

Just like I said We dont really know exactly the destination of these two great Prophets..according to the bible they were taking from the earth and were no more. Perhaps! They might have lived and died somewhere better than earth in sheol( place of the dead). Since they did not taste death on earth. My opinion tho!

7. Does elijah and enoch being in heaven not make jesus a liar when he said that "no one has ascended unto heaven ?

Just like ayoku777 had said. That was before Christ resurrection since Christ is the first born fruit. But dont take my word for it..there might still be broader explanation for this.

8 does the bible give us an idea that enoch died? And does it make mention of elijah being active as a prophet on earth after the chariot incident?

Oh yes! The bible made mention of all the faithful patriarchs dying in their faith..Heb.11:1-13..but something about verse 5 also said Enoch was translated so that he did not see death..that makes it difficult to be precise if Enoch was included in verse 13 as to their death.

If its about Elijah himself being active on earth is out of my scope..have not come across such in the Bible

Other questions might come up later, but you can help to answer these questions for now. And pls add scriptural references to ur answers .

Ok.

ayoku777:
Personally I don't like to over-indulge in arguments that at the end of the day won't necessarily add to Christlikeness. It begins to look like a mere show-off of bible knowledge.



Psalm 16v10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol) nor suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

This is just one the 31 verses where sheol is translated hell in the scriptures.

Sheol or hades was translated as hell in the scriptures. Just as gehenna too is translated hell.

But in actual essence; sheol or hades is the place of the dead, where the souls of the dead go to. While gehenna is actually the lake of fire, where the soul and body of the sinner will end up.

No one is in gehenna yet. And only unbelievers still go to sheol or hades now.



Yes that's exactly what I am saying. Believers go to heaven now when they die. No more to sheol like the old testament saints.

Philippians 1v23 -For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; which is far better:

Here was Paul, equating the death of the believer to going to be with Christ.

Christ is presently in heaven, so if christians now go to be with Christ when they die; it means christians now go to heaven when they die, no more sheol.

Another verse showing that;

2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

Here you see it again. According to Paul; to be absent from the body (to die) equals to be present with the Lord.

Last I checked, the Lord is now in heaven; no more in sheol. So if christians that depart from the body now go to be with the Lord; it means christians go to heaven now when they die, no more to sheol like the old testament saints.

To claim believers don't go to heaven now when they die; you will need to come up with your own new interpretation of "going to be with the Christ" and "to be present with the Lord".



Yes sinners alone.

Only believers will experience the first resurrection at the beginning of the millenial reign.

Revelation 20v5-6 -But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Only believers will experience this first resurrection. Then only sinners will experience the second resurrection.

Shalom.

Ok fine..but I need to study more on that on my own to cross check all you have said when am less busy.

Shalom!

dolphinheart:
@ ayoku777 and maamin

Questions
1. What does the bible say happens to us when we die/when we go to sheol.

2.(a)does our creature tell us what we(man/men) are?
(b) Let's say the bible teaches us that man is made of three different parts, which one goes to hell, which one does not and where do the rest go .

3. If people where in the good and bad side of hell, does it not mean they have been judged already? Why the judgement later. Cus if I die and I'm being put in one side cus of my actions on earth , ill definitely assume I've been judged guilty or righteous before my trial , abi no be so . ?

4. What is ressurection?

5 where is moses, David and all loyal servants of God that lived before jesus at this moment.

6.(a) Does if not mean that humans can enter heaven without jesus dying for us if we believe that elijah and enoch went to heaven ?
(b) if elijah and enoch could make it to heaven, there will be no need of sacrifice cus that means can be used by all to enter heaven right ?

7. Does elijah and enoch being in heaven not make jesus a liar when he said that "no one has ascended unto heaven ?

8 does the bible give us an idea that enoch died? And does it make mention of elijah being active as a prophet on earth after the chariot incident?

Other questions might come up later, but you can help to answer these questions for now. And pls add scriptural references to ur answers .

Will answer this when am less busy have a tight schedule these days.

DeHero1:
This ur username sef... If I explain mermaid further, u may think I'm referring to u.

Shows that you are not quite seeking answers then...take care!

You first said sheol is grave; I said no its not. You now agreed that sheol is the place of the dead, which is true.

You said sheol is hell and that was where your description was faulty, here is the implication of your assertions.

VVV :Below

ayoku777:


Until Jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification; everyone who died went straight to hell (sheol -the place of the dead). Everyone; including Abraham, David, Samuel, etc.

Except for Enoch and Elijah, who God whisked away before death could come for them; everyone who died went to hell (sheol).

And I was only trying to differentiate Sheol from Hell for you..Strong's concordance also refers to sheol as grave for logical reasons since grave is also a place for the dead or departed.

You now said there is a part of sheol called heaven. That's not true. There is no heaven or paradise or part of heaven in sheol. Sheol is for sinners; for everyone under the bondage of the sin of Adam.

Before Jesus came; everyone (good or evil) went to sheol or hades. Those who did good don't go to the torment side of sheol. But they still end up in sheol or hades all the same.

Sheol and hades are the same thing

Kehver and mnemeion are the same thing -grave or sepulchre

Gehenna or lake of fire are the same place.

You seem to misunderstand me...read this very carefully: In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol (place of the dead) called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

Remember earlier on that I said Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s bosom—as John leaned on Jesus' bosom at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned. The bolded is what I want you to concentrate at.

Now; that statement by Jesus to the thief on the cross;

Luke 23v43 -Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This verse has been translated wrongly. We should know that there are no "commas" in greek. English translators placed the comma before "today" instead of after it.

The right translation would have been;

Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise.

This I know and very aware of..is irrelevant in our discussion

Paradise is heaven; the third heaven. Not a part of sheol

That was why I later used synonymous to Abrahams bossom as to Sheol (the place where departed righteous souls go to)

2Cor 12v4 -How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words.

Paradise is heaven. You don't descend into paradise; you're caught up into paradise.

Jesus didn't say the thief will be with Him in paradise that day. He said "I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise (heaven)".

No christian goes to sheol anymore (torment or no torment side). When christians sleep now; they go to be with the Lord, according to Paul. Unless you want to say Jesus is in sheol.

Irrelevant..and dont forget that Christ said "no one has gone up to heaven except he that was from there.."

Only unbelievers still go to sheol or hades now when they die. And will go to gehenna or lake of fire after the second resurrection.

But don't let's derail this thread. This argument is off point from the topic of this thread.

So what are you saying that there are dead departed souls or people already in heaven presently? And who are to be resurrected in the second resurrection? Sinners alone?

This is serious..but i think I should be stopping here for now.

i will not dignify pastorkun, maamin and or ifeann with any response because its not my issue here. may Allah protect and forgive the sins of olabowale. and every muslim. amin.

In other words you are Olabowale

@maamin; believer ehn in hebrew, when nothing you do in your church is hebrew? thats nonsensical.
my trinitarian questions are specific and direct and lacking no lie, like that from the madam you know what [ifeann], the deceiver.
tell me which part is a lie and i will answer it.

i will then after give you the past that is a lie in what ifeann presented. you or ifeann can do justice to refute what i said is a lie.

How many church have you been to?...and beside we are not moving the hebrew tradition into the church. just like the culture and practices of Saudi arabia have become your religion..very very nonsensical.

Your trinitarian questions are subjective and bias..not really surprise tho, since it is coming from a canal mind.

Ifeann:
I think it was pastorkun who asked roypain the same question.. He kept denying that he isn't olabowale. Brainwashed Muslims think alike so he may be saying the truth.

Well if he is the one...i dont know what he stand to gain by denying it..anyway, he should go back to that thread and answer those questions properly.

@maamin; how did you come about this name of yours? please explain, because it seems to me its 'ma ami n; my mother.' am i close but no cigar? give me the 411 on it.

Well, Maamin does not mean what you think it is up there.."Ma'amin" is a hebrew word for "beliver"

And you sound like Olabowale..are you the one behind RoyPcain?

ifeann put minimum truth and much falsehood together in a question and ask for yes or no for answer! even in poland or finland or in lagos or the village she reides, the village idiot will tell her she didn't try at all. i am at least by the Mercy of Allah smarter than the village idiot in her community. this is why i explained to her instead of giving her the silly answer she wanted.

Same way you did in those questions you asked on trinity.

my trinitarian questions are legitimate because of your christian beliefs. you believe God as father, son and ghost. there is no english speaking country where 'and' is used that will say what is before and after it are 1! if you can tell me that country, i will never visit it because all of them in that country must be crazy or retarded or both and more. for me its both and more [notice that both is not the same as more].

Nope they are not..your questions are mixed with false conception plus canal minded motives.

[s]i do not believe that aisha [RA] was a girl in her time younger than what i think an 18 year old girl of today is. this is my stand and i live in the most advance country on earth as of today, in the most priced city and in one of the best part of the city. you can't possibly call me a bushman. so if i agree with Muhammad [SA] saying he is definitely my no 1 hero, it is ignorant of you to not hurry up to his way and be honored by it.



@malvisguy212; the verse you posted above the post of maamin who is above me now is a verse which God commanded angel jibril to identify Allah and go directly to the angels honoring God and their servant position to Him. so the we and us here are referring to the angels who are 'set in ranks' before God, angels who praise Him in hymns. s. 37/161-166 therefore are of 3 parts [analysis below].

this first part in quote is about Allah in the verse you quoted;




this second part in quote is about the fake Gods, satan, elegun, olumba olumba, okija, etc. remember your ajanaku pastor? his ifa, awo, etc are from this because you rely on one of them at least taking him as protector, savior, what to worship, etc. if they agree with your view they will end up in hell like the worshipers of them;



this last part in quote is about the angel describing angels in their awe of Allah

;
[/s]

The rest are irrelevant for this thread.

Shalom aleikhem!

ayoku777:
Nope; that's not true.

Kehver - hebrew for grave, sepulchre, tomb

Sheol - hebrew for the place of the dead.

Mnemeion - greek for grave, tomb, sepulchre

Hades - greek for the place of the dead.

Kehver and mnemeion mean grave, sepulchre and tomb in hebrew and greek respectively

And Sheol and Hades mean place of the dead in hebrew and greek respectively.

Gehenna is place of torment and final destruction; it is also the place called the "Lake of fire".

No one is in gehenna yet. People enter gehenna with their soul and bodies. Only souls go to hades.

Matthew 5v29 -...for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that THY WHOLE BODY should be cast into hell (gehenna).

Matthew 10v28 -...but rather fear Him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell (gehenna).

Both soul and bodies go to gehenna (or lake of fire), but only souls go to hades (or sheol)

Only the soul of Jesus went to hades or sheol (hell) while His body was in mneneion (grave)

Psalms 16v10 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL (sheol), neither suffer thine Holy one to see corruption.

Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL (hades), neither suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Notice sheol in hebrew is hades in greek. The soul of Jesus went to sheol or hades to preach to the spirits in prison. Meaning sheol is not grave (kehver); it is the place of the dead.

Also, the rich man in the parable of Jesus was being tormented in hades.

Luke 16v23 - And in hell (hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bossom.

Its like this:

Mnemeion and kehver mean the same thing -grave and sepulchre.

Sheol and hades mean the same thing -place of the dead.

Gehenna and lake of fire are the same place -place of eternal torment.

You are still not far from it..i only wanted you to see that Sheol is not Hell as you have rendered it in your first post.

The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.

The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.

Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell(gehenna), the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.

@OP here is why christ death on the cross matters:
But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.

hope this is clear enough

Shalom aleikhem

Op..you need to first give a convincing and concrete evidence of the existence of mermaids before I can be able to tell you who created them.

This OP Ehn!

ayoku777:
You're the one getting it wrong.

Until Jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification; everyone who died went straight to hell (sheol -the place of the dead). Everyone; including Abraham, David, Samuel, etc.

Except for Enoch and Elijah, who God whisked away before death could come for them; everyone who died went to hell (sheol).

No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus died and rose and gave us His righteousness.

1Samuel 28v13 -And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

This was when Saul went to the witch of Endor for her to help him conjur the spirit of Samuel the prophet.

Notice that the spirit of samuel was ascending out of the earth. meaning that, even Samuel, the prophet of the Lord was in sheol.

And hear what Samuel said unto Saul;

1Samuel 28v19 -Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hands of the philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons BE WITH ME:

Here was Samuel, a good man and the Lord's prophet; telling Saul, the evil king rejected by God; that by tomorrow, Saul and his sons will be with him (Samuel).

Meaning that, both the good and the evil went to the same place after death -Hell or Sheol.

Its clear however, from Christ's account of the rich man and Lazarus, that those who did good and pleased God relatively in their lifetime did not stay in the torment side of sheol. But they were in Hell (sheol) all the same.

Both Abraham and Lazarus and the rich went to hell (sheol); but Abraham and Lazarus were not in the torment side. But they were all in hell.

No one was righteous enough for eternal life or for heaven until Jesus came and gave us His righteous. Both the good and the evil went to sheol until Jesus came.

God bless you.

You have done well in your explanation but sheol is different from hell

Sheol = grave, underworld, Hades (a place the dead go to after death)
Hell = Gehenna in hebrew (a place of torment and final destruction)

RoyPCain, you failed to answer Ifeann's "Simple questions" with a YES or NO..and you are here derailing this triniterian thread by asking similar questions you yourself couldnt be straight forward in giving the answers when you were faced with it.

Can you please go back to that thread and display your islamic knowledge before commenting here?

He is more than a historical figure he is also a spiritual figure.

Seriously thinking right now cause there is this.....!

Wait!