₦airaland Forum

Rilwon:
Was Adam created for your 2reasons above?



You've just contradicted yourself, you claim that God created us to worship him and to love our neighbours, now to WORSHIPPING God requires an effort to PLEASE HIM, do you want to disagree with this?



Xtianity is not exempted.



And I said If RELIGION is the believe of superhuman called GOD according to you, are you saying xtianity doesn't
believe in GOD since religionists believe in GOD?



I don't need to ask google, google wasn't the one that create the OP, was it?

when God created adam, God had a personal relationship with him,this relationship stop when adam disobeyed God.

When I say this word "religion
is like a man putting effort to
pleased God" I was showing you how wrong man idea are.

Thoes christians who thought salvation is by there own work ,they are wrong.

When I say " Christianity is a relationship with GOD". Your understanding on this is that since Christianity is not a religion ,christians don't believe in God ,let me ask you this, to have a relationship with God and to have a relationship with human just to reached out for God, which do you preferred?

koice:
(This topic wasn't intended to offend, so please try not to take offence)

1. Why did God create the world in 6 days? Why not just instantly do it all in one day if he was all powerful?

2. If God has a plan for us then why pray at all?

3. Why did God punish Adam and Eve for doing wrong if they did not know the difference between right and wrong?

4. Where did God come from?

5. How does a virgin get pregnant?

6. Did God create sin?

7. Why are there so many religion with each one claiming to be the only true one?

8. Between Isaac and Ismael, which one was the legitimate son of Abraham?

9. Why are there no chairs in mosques?

10. What status does Jesus hold in Islam. And what status does Mohammed hold in Christianity?

You don't need to answer all, just attempt one that you know.

1.is a forestshadowing event, God is trying to tell us how the world will end isaiah 46 say God declared the end from the beginning,why did God throw this in? Read here https://www.nairaland.com/1853536/end-days-end-harvest
2.God want to have a personal relationship with us, bible say he know our desire even before we ask ,God want us to COME to him and ask,how do you make a choice in worship God? By prayer.
3. adam and eve know what is right and wrong the day God command them not to eat from the tree, the reply of eve indicate it,pay close attention to eve reply to the serpent;
He said to the woman, “Did God actually
say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the
garden’?” And the woman said to the
serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the
trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You
shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is
in the midst of the garden, neither shall
you touch it, lest you DIE.’” But the
serpent said to the woman, “You will not
surely die. For God knows that when you
eat of it your eyes will be opened, and
you will be like God, knowing good and
evil.” (Genesis 3:1-5 ESV).
Clearly written here, the woman knows if she eat the fruit she will "DIE" if the woman did not no good or evil no need for satan to trick her, am I right? Ok
4.God is the first caused .
5.a supernatural being can performed more than that, but if you are an atheist and you don't believe in the supernatural,I have nothing to proved to you, haven't you encounter juju and all sort of magic before?
6.the purpose of the universe is not to be morally or physically perfect, but to
provide a place where spiritual creatures can choose to love or reject God - to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. Without sin or evil people will not be able to make this choice
7. https://www.nairaland.com/1999485/all-religions-lead-god-one
8.Isaac
9.ISLAM contradicts the teaching of Jesus christ
10.muhammed got nothing to do with Christianity.

Rilwon. When you say PVC you mean voters card? To be honest, I do not even register. Thank you.

Rilwon:
Is calling someone "fool" a good moral to emulate from the bible?

let Me put it this way;
the bible does not called him fool because he is an atheist, he called his behaviour foolish,he think "if I don't believe in God ,God will not judge me"

The second half of verse 14:1 says "They
are corrupt, their deeds are vile." At first, you might think that the "they" are those who disbelieve in the existence of God.
However, the end of verse 14:1 says
"there is no one who does good." One
might still think that the verse is referring to atheists. However, Psalm 14:2-3 make it clear that as God looks down on all people, He can find none who are not corrupt, emphasizing it with "not even one."

The passage makes it clear that God can
find nobody who does good or even tries to understand God's ways. From God's perspective, not one person attains His standard of moral behavior.

The evidence is here,on nairaland,base on the atheists posts I have read here , don't think they are good.I may be wrong or right though.

Rilwon:
If RELIGION is the believe of superhuman called GOD according to you, are you saying xtianity doesn't believe in GOD since religionists believe in GOD. You can't as well claim that xtianity is not a RELIGION




So whats your own definition? or are you not human being



There is no going forward until you define what religion means to you.

From the time we are born we learn that the family relationship provides security and safety and unconditional love. (That is why we call God the “Father”). And that is why Jesus is called the "bridgroom and the church is called the "bride" religion cannot gives you this.what is the purpose of God creating you? Is it not to worship him and love your fellow human? What the need of religion?religion is like a man putting effort to pleased God ;
“If I can do enough, say enough, pray
enough, give enough, sacrifice enough
perhaps God will show me favor”. Every
religion is based upon this “works
theology”

You ask me to defined religion which I did, but your still asking me the same question again, go and search google for the answer if you don't satisfied with mine.

johnydon22:
judging from your words now i think its evident enough whose morals are bad... If you are to be the judge will you say me or you?

do you think no one will hold you accountable for the sins you commit? You don't believe in God soo God will not judge you? This is what psalms 14:1 called foolish.

davien:
Have you read the Aramaic bible?
regardless of that, religion doesn't have to be mentioned in the bible for Christianity to be a religion....

is the aramaic bible different from the English translations? What your points?

Do you agree that Christianity is Not a religion? If yes ,God bless you but if your answer is no , proved me wrong.

I am busy now.

Rilwon:
What exactly is your definition of religion?

religion is the belief of a creator or superhuman called God or gods. That is what human defined religion,(read the first sentence in the op) you can't have a personal relationship with God through religion.

davien:
Funny enough I didn't say Christianity is similar to mithraism.....yet you've spent a whole lot of time trying to say it isn't...
What I merely said was that mithraists also referred to christianity as a cult....

no one will agree with the children of God because of freewill and choice,but I will advice you to read and study the bible then provide a verse that encourage religion in the bible, let us study it.

johnydon22:
And now malvisguy suddenly know the thought of god towards religion (he hates religion) ever wonder how this malvisguy's god stance against religion is in coincide with malvisguy's recent views on religion.

lol god's view on religion suddenly changed because malvisguy's view on religion changed..

[size=20] I greatly distrust those who know so well what god wants cus i noticed it was always in coincide with their own opinion[/size]

meanwhile :Good start

The fool says there is no God. But, he is not foolish because he is an atheist, but
because he thinks he can get away with
bad moral behavior.

Rilwon:
Surah At-Taubah, Verse 61:
And among them are men who hurt the Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and say: "He is (lending his) ear (to every news)." Say: "He listens to what is best for you; he believes in Allah; has faith in the believers; and is a mercy to those of you who believe." But those who hurt Allah's Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will have a painful torment.

does this sound right to you?
" Who hurt muhammed will have a painful torment" is muhammed Allah? Yes, no wounder surah 4:80 say" Whoever obeys the
Messenger has obeyed Allah.”. They are both ONE person

davien:
You know, "cult" I'd what the big religions call the little ones...Christianity was also a cult in rune when mithraism was the order of the day.

I will not go into argument with you, mithraism has no similarity with Christianity, they say mithra was born 25 of December but unfortunately there is no verse in the bible that say Jesus was born December 25.
the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for
Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities"

Reading the bible with a teachable spirit,you will understand that Christianity is a relationship with God.

[quote author=Rilwon post=31813313][/quote]there are conclusive evidence in the quran that indicate Allah and muhammed are ONE.let me give you an example;

Quran link the pleasure of Allah and muhammed;
Quran9:62
They swear to you by Allah in order to
please you, while Allah AND his Apostle
are most entitled that they should seek
HIS pleasure (yurduhu).

The word yurduhu is singular and yet, as the context makes it clear, it is used in relation to a dual subject, namely Allah and Muhammad his apostle. In other words, if this is not simply yet another grammatical error, then the singular is presumably being employed in order to group Muhammad and his deity together in their pleasure, in what pleases them.it is either muhammed and Allah is the same person OR this is grammatical error.

But the cults such as Islam easily fall precisely under the premise of “God hates Religion”; after all, I observe no one more committed to their religion than an Islamic Fundamentalist. Although the Muslim serves a different god (Allah is not the God of the Bible), he too is seeking to appease his god by doing. That is “works based theology” no matter how you slice it.

In its broadest sense, Christianity is a
religion based upon the teachings of
Jesus of Nazareth, who lived in Palestine
during the first century. However, if
Christianity is lived as merely a set of
teachings and rules to be followed, it
misses the main points that Jesus taught. First and foremost, Christianity is anchored in love, God's love for us and our response to that love.

WHY RELIGION?
Many skeptics think that religion is a
waste of time or worse. I tend to agree. I am a Christian, but I don't consider myself a particularly religious person. Christianity is much more than just religion.Someone may be thinking “I thought God invented religion!” Sorry, but God invented Man and Man invented religion.


God created Man for the express
purpose of mutual relationship with him, but gave Man the power of choice and free will. Man chose to break that
relationship and has been trying to find
his own way by inventing religions and
cults of all kinds in an effort to replace
that void left by lack of relationship with
his Creator.

But relationship with God cannot be
found through religion. In fact, religion is the biggest roadblock to seeking a
relationship with God. Religion is simply
Man trying to reach out to God by doing
something that he thinks will please God.

“If I can do enough, say enough, pray
enough, give enough, sacrifice enough
perhaps God will show me favor”. Every
religion is based upon this “WORKS
theology”. Neither ceremony, liturgy,
creeds, sacraments nor money have ever brought one soul into a reconciled
relationship to God.

TEACHING OF JESUS.
Although Jesus did not teach anything
radically different from that of the Old
Testament, He simplified the main points so that people could not escape into a pure exercise of religious ceremonies.
The Old Testament describes many laws
(both moral and ceremonial) that were to be followed by the people of God. With so many laws, people tended to become SELECTIVE, preferring to follow the easier ceremonial laws over the more difficult moral laws (Matthew 23:23). The religious ruling class was especially susceptible to selective obedience of the law, resulting in moral hypocrisy. Jesus explained that the moral commandments were not to be followed merely to the letter of the law, but also to the intent of the law. So, it was not enough to abstain from adultery, but God required that one not even look on a woman with lust (Matthew 5:27-28). Likewise, it is not enough to abstain from murder, but God requires that nobody hate another without cause, with calling another person "a fool" making one
guilty enough to suffer the judgment of
Hell (Matthew 5:21-22). So God's laws
require not only perfect performance,
but also perfect attitude and motive.
Jesus said the entire law of God could be
summarized into a mere two commands:

Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God
with all your heart and with all your soul
and with all your mind.' This is the first
and greatest commandment. And the
second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as
yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets
hang on these two
commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

Isaiah 1:13-14 states, “Bring no more
vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons
and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies… it is iniquity…Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.”

David prays to God in Psalm 40:6,
“Sacrifice and offering thou didst not
desire;…Burnt offering and sin offering
hast thou not required.”

Amos 5:21 says, “I hate, I despise your
feast days, and I will not smell (the odors of their sacrifices) in your solemn
assemblies.”

Micah 6:6-8 includes; “Wherewith shall I
come before the Lord and bow myself
before the high God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.”

And there it is: “Humble yourselves in
the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.” James 4:10.

You see, the Israelites (Jews) of the Old
Testament had forgotten the relationship with God and became dependent upon the religious system of works and sacrifice and offerings expecting spiritual redemption or to appease God. But in these passages we see God Himself saying, “I don’t care how you shake and dance, I’m not interested in your religious activities, I want your heart.” In fact that is exactly what He expresses here in Isaiah 29:13,

“ Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me …”(Jesus quoted this passage in Matt. 15:8-9 adding “…in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men .”)
Imagine a pyramid which represents
religion. The base is guilt, upon which is
laid fear. Religion uses guilt and fear to
incite works to appease which when
applied results in pride.

SO, FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES THAT
DEFINED THE CHRISTIANS EXPERIENCE IS LOVE;
love of God and love of our fellow
human beings. So, a person who merely
loves his fellow man is only fulfilling half of the law, and is neglecting what Jesus said was the most important part loving God.

MrPresident1:
lol. I've never been so foolish to label myself an atheist.

U mistake me for another person.

thank God. I just notice the I.D of the other president, the different is the number attached to the I.D

The guy made this coment
"he didnt fulfil any shiiit, jesus (if he even
existed) left this place worse than he met "
https://www.nairaland.com/2173054/what-jesus-meant-fullfiled-law

MrPresident1:
Lol.

You will get it shortly. It wont be long anymore.

are you not the one that called himself an atheist? Are you now a prophet?

blueyedgeek:
So god's flimsy excuse was that the Amalekites were a wicked race and so his answer was to kill an entire race; fathers, mothers, children all wiped away like they meant nothing. You choose to see nothing wrong nothing with this and even defend god's stupid instruction to kill infants and children. Una don loss finish.

you guys qoute verses from the bible that talk abouy how God proclaimed judgment on the unbelievers but failed to provide verse of their evil acts, after God judge them, God did not immediately carry on the acts, he waited for 300 years until he fulfilled his judgment.

What causes the war between amalikites and the isrealite? it all started during the exedus era,they
were traveling during the Exodus ( Ex
17:. And the amalikites attack them without apparent provocation

Deuteronomy 25:17-18
" 17 Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and attacked all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God."

This verse indicate that the amalikites started the war.

They later attacked Israel during the time of the Judges (Jdg 3:13) and often raided the Israelites' land after they had planted crops, leaving them with nothing ( Jdg 6:2-5):

Judges 6:2-5
2 Because the power of Midian was so
oppressive, THE ISREALITE PREPARED
SHELTER FOR THEMSELVES in mountain
clefts, caves and strongholds. 3
Whenever the Israelites PLANTED THEIR CROP, the Midianites, AMALIKITES and
other eastern peoples INVADED THE
COUNTRY. 4 They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel,
neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys. 5
They came up with their livestock and
their tents like swarms of locusts. It was
impossible to count them or their camels; they invaded the land to ravage it.

Still God did not carry on his judgement, the amalikites keep on attacking isreal in the book of Samuel,that is over 300 years when God said this in exedus;

Exedus17:14-16
The LORD said to Moses, "Write this
on a scroll as something to be
remembered and make sure that
Joshua hears it, because I WILL
COMPLETELY BLOT out the memory of
Amalek from under heaven."
Moses built an altar and called it The
LORD is my Banner. He said, "For
hands were lifted up to the throne of
the LORD. The LORD will be at war
against the Amalekites from
generation to generation."

After over 300 years God wipe them out because of there continuously evil against God children, today there is no nation of them existing.during that 300 years they may have heard the judgment of God and repented but no , they dint. Mr atheist be sincere next time and quote where it all started.

truthman2012:
I used to wonder too as it is very difficult to differentiate Muhammad and his allah. Numerous verses of the quran say ''obey Allah and his messenger''. Muhammad enjoyed the same power as allah himself. Besides, when he wanted something he would say it was allah that gave him the revelation. A good example is when he wanted to marry Zanab, his adopted son's wife.

they are blind to notice all this, just like eve confidently accepts the lies of satan,that is how the muslims accepts this lies.bible say in Roman1:25>>>>They EXCHANGED the TRUTh about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created
things rather than the Creator--who is
forever praised. Amen. And David wrote in the psalms saying;psalms52:3>>>You lOVE EVIL RATHER THAN GOOD, falsehood rather than SPEAKING THE TRUTH.

mankind need the salvation of the
gospel in christ Jesus , because none could obtain the favour of God, or escape his wrath by their own works. For no man can plead that he has fulfilled all his obligations to God and to his neighbour; nor can any truly say that he has fully acted up to the light afforded him. The sinfulness of man
is described as ungodliness against the
laws of the first table. ONLY JESUS CAN SAVE.

Empiree:
malvis: You seem to lack comprehension. Didn't I explain this to you before?. Let's keep it simple. Now tell me which bible are you talking about?. You have over 40 different versions. Which one did Jesus read?. When you answer that, I will compare it to what Qur'an said to see if it corresponds to his message. okay?.

listen, Jesus did not read the Gospel,he preach the gospel,he only read from the old covenant and each time he read it to the people, he proclaims it FULFILLED ,Jesus is the word of God, all what muhammed wrote in the quran is wrong, God did not give Jesus any book, I wish muhammed was alive, we would have ask him to produce the book let see since non of you have been able to produce just ONE copy, infacte there is not a single quranic manuscript yet you guys open your mouth and called the word of God corrupted,seriously? Satan is only manipulating the word of God, no religion satan can used to carry on his dirty plan except ISLAM, there is many thing you guys don't know about God.

truthman2012:
Good talk bro. Islam of allah is double-faced, designed to lead mankind into deception and eventually take them to hell. When allah speaks in the quran, he would debunk his own statements in the next verses. The quranic quotes you made confirms the bible is true but characteristically, allah denied it in other verses. This is no surprise as we know his true identity. The Devil is a liar.

God bless you ,Allah cannot be the true God,is words are not steady ,uptil today,I am still trying to differentiate between Allah and muhammed, but I can't they are both one person. Example muhammed thought Arron is the sister of Mary and you know the christians in nijran always exposed him;
(Surah 19:27, 28). It reads:
"Carrying the child, (Jesus), she (Mary)
came to her people, who said to her:
"Mary, this is indeed a strange thing!
Sister of Aaron, your father was never a
LovePeddler-monger, nor was your mother a
harlot."" [The Koran, Dawood's
translation, pages 215, 216].

This verse states that after Mary gave
birth to Christ, her townsfolk reproached her. They thought she was not married, and assumed that she committed sexual sin because she gave birth. In their reproach, they called her, "Sister of Aaron". This mistake was discerned by the Arabic Christians of Najran. There is a record of them exposing Muhammad's mistake about Mary.

In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by
Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, #5326, says:
"When I came to Najran, they (the
Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the
Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well
before Jesus. When I came back to
Allah's Messenger I asked him about
that, and he said: "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their
persons) after the names of Apostle and
pious persons who had gone before
them."" [Sahih Muslim, translated by
Abdul Siddiqi].

the excuse muhammed gave here exposed his illiteracy, Muhammad said that this manner of using the idiom, "sister of Aaron", was done by the pious people of the "old age", i.e. people who lived during Mary's time. Those people called their fellow citizens after pious persons who had lived earlier. But the Christians of Najran did not recognize the use of this idiom. Although they lived some 600 years after Christ's time, they were familiar with their own religious stories, and certainly those of the Jews. But this idiom struck their ears as peculiar. If the idiom were familiar to them, they would not have objected. But the expression "sister of Aaron", when applied to Mary in relation
to Aaron, was not familiar.

Further, they did not recognize the
technique or model in which this idiom
was used. Had they known the custom
that Muhammad said existed, of people
calling other people "brother" or "sister"
of ancient pious people, like possibly,
"sister of Moses", "brother of David",
"sister of Abraham", "brother of Isaac",
they would have understood what the
Quran was saying and raised no
objection. But both the idiom, and the
model in which it is used, were foreign to them.

If there would be one place where Mary
or someone else might be called "sister
of Aaron", it might be in the Bible. But
there is no place where Mary or anyone
else is metaphorically called "sister of
Aaron".the Arab christians understand that the people of old called there pious ones "SON" and "DAUGHTER" muhammed was soo wrong, who inspired him to write this error? Satan offcorse.

Empiree:
Okay, those verses say "scripture(s)".

Question is which scripture Jesus read?. If your Answer is "Bible" another question is which of bibles?. To my knowledge, there are over 40 versions of the Bible. They have lots of differences and contradictions. Which one Jesus read?.

non of you guys have been able to use the quran and proved the bible is corrupted,Many Muslims today say the Bible is corrupted. But there is nothing in the Quran that supports this. There is not one word in the Quran that teaches that the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians have been perverted by man. Instead, the opposite is true. The Quran supports the Bible.
Isn't it interesting that the Muslims'
Quran has nothing to say about the
corruption of the Scriptures of the largest religion on earth? During Muhammad's time Christian influence was known in Mecca. There were Jewish and Christian settlements in the Hijaz, and Christianity ringed the Saudi peninsula. Yet not one word is spoken by "Allah" concerning the Scriptures of their faith and not one word on the corruption of His previous Word.

The New Testament contains the stories
of Jesus identifying Himself as the Son of God, Jesus predicting His crucifixion,
death, and resurrection, Jesus calling
God "Father". Jesus' teachings are
contradicted by Muhammad in the
Quran time and time again. Further, the
Quran contradicts even the Old
Testament stories related to such Biblical figures as Gideon, Saul, David, and Noah. Why didn't Islam's "Allah" speak up on corruption if these Scriptures were inaccurate of false?
These themes are fundamental, why
would the Muslims' god fail to address
their corruption? If such a corruption had actually taken place, wouldn't "Allah" have revealed it in the Quran? The Quran is full of vague statements,
misquoted biblical stories, myths from
pagan, Jewish, and Christian backgrounds, yet "Allah" has nothing to
say about the corruption of His previous
word. How could such an omission occur?

One has to wonder who Muhammad's
"Allah" really was. He certainly didn't
appear to be the "All Knowing", or at
least, if he knew, he wasn't telling.
Or was it that "Allah" didn't know
because Muhammad didn't know?
Jesus taught that false prophets would
come into the world and mislead many.
There are passages from the Quran,
Hadith, and Sira, that deal with this
The Quran clearly testifies that the
Scriptures of the People of the Book, i.e., the Old and New Testaments, are the uncorrupted Word of God. Below is a review of Muhammad's words in the
Quran that present this.

1) 3:50 - "I come to confirm the Torah
which preceded me..."
2) 5:46 - "After them we sent forth Jesus,
the son of Mary, confirming the Torah
already revealed
3) 35:31 - "What We have revealed to you
in the Book is the truth confirming
previous Scriptures. God knows and
observes His servants.
4) 5:46 - 48 "After them we sent forth
Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the
Torah already revealed, and gave him
the Gospel, in which there is guidance
and light, corroborating what was
revealed before it in the Torah, a guide
and an admonition to the righteous.
Therefore let those who follow the Gospel
judge according to what God has
revealed therein.
5) 5:66 - "If they observe the Torah and
the Gospel..."
6) 10::94 - "If you doubt what We have
revealed to you [Muhammad], Ask those
who have read the Scriptures before
you."
7) 2:113 - "The Jews say the Christians
are misguided, and the Christians say it
is the Jews who are misguided. Yet they
both read the Scriptures..."

Muhammad believed in the truths of the Bible. But he did not know what the Bible taught. His ignorance led him to make statements that displayed his lack of knowledge. His self-contradictions prove he was not a prophet of God.

Unbias. God bless you for this wonderful thread.

Empiree:
Dont even think for a second that I'm gonna go back n fourth with you on this. Go over again, this time read slowly and between the lines. I respect you when you brought your good observation but if you can't read btw the lines, dont quote me. Thanks

this is the verse you quote;
"And We revealed to Musa's mother
saying: Give him suck. When you fear
for him, cast him into the river and do
not fear nor grieve, surely We will
restore him to you and make him one
of the apostles." (28: 7)

Moses mother believe in Allah and obey this instructions, now before I reply you fully, what is the quranic definition of faith?

Let me repeat myself again, All what you wrote in your first post is rubbish!!!! Thank you.

Empiree:
okay, let's hear your possible explanation

explained what? According to you,Moses mother believe in Allah which mean she was a muslim,if Moses say "he was the first muslim according to the quran" this mean Moses lied infacte Moses is a Jew same thing goes to Abraham ,doesent this mean Moses lied for saying he is the first muslim?

Empiree:
I dont know how you happened to miss further explanation I gave in the same post your quoted. This is why I hate talking to you sometimes. Please, kindly refer to the same post you quoted.

your explanation is soo wrong,what you supposed to explained is the belief of Moses mother.

if every child is born a muslim, it mean Moses is not the first muslim,am busy now, I will attend to this very post later.

Empiree:
Mashallah!!! Good question. Good observation. Qur'an also suggests Musa (Moses)'s mother was a believer, a muslim. Here we read that she was inspired by Allah with instructions on the account of her baby Moses:

"And We revealed to Musa's mother saying: Give him suck. When you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear nor grieve, surely We will restore him to you and make him one of the apostles." (28: 7)

The same direction is expressed in other Verses:

"Call to mind the occasion when We revealed to your mother: Put him into the chest and cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; then shall take him up to one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him and I cast down upon you love From Me and that you may be brought up before My eyes." (20:38-39)

Even though we know from Islamic perceptive that every child is born muslim, his prophet-hood did not commence (officially) as muslim leader of Israelites until after he grown up. The only possible answer I can think of is he was adult at the time Qur'an makes the statement that he was the first muslim among his people(the unbelievers). Quran doesnt reference his mother during his commission. So he was the first muslim amongst his people (he rescued from pharaoh)

that is the points I am making, you said Moses is the FIRST among his people to believe, you just say his mother believe in Allah too, between him and his mother who is the first to believe?

Abuamam:
Sure.
Romans 7:4-6
Ephesians 4:14
and others I can't now remember.

Compare with...
Matthew 5:18.

Paul epistle was a teaching but the gospel was a preaching, Paul teach what is in the gospel,teaching required the holy spirit to understand.

In matthew5:18.For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is ACCOMPLISHED.

If the law can save us, why did Jesus have to come?what is there to accomplished? the law is not going to save us but it will help us to know what is good and bad. when Jesus say he come to fullfiled the law, he mean "I PERFECTTLY KEPT THE LAW AND I AM THE PERFECT EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW
The law is perfect and to obey it ,it's by God grace in Jesus (salvation) salvation is God work base upon belief on Jesus christ.

Roman 7:4-6
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also
died to the law through the body of
Christ, that you might belong to another,
to him who was raised from the dead, in
order that we might bear fruit for God. 5
For when we were in the realm of the
flesh,[ a] the sinful passions aroused by
the law were at work in us, so that we
bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying
to what once bound us, we have been
released from the law so that we serve in
the new way of the Spirit, and not in the
old way of the written code.



So long as a man continues under
the law as a covenant, and seeks
justification by his own obedience, he
continues the slave of sin in some form.
Nothing but the Spirit of life in Christ
Jesus, can make any sinner free from the law of sin and death.

Empiree:
Nonsense!!!

What else is new?. Evangelists! I hail thee

You people point to two references from the Quran, 6:14 and 6:161-163, and claim these references show Muhammad as the first Muslim and then turn your attention to another verse of the Quran (7;143) concerning Moses being the first of the believers. Just to further your agenda you may also highlight other Quranic references indicating there were Muslims before Muhammed (pbuh) and Moses namely the first man Adam (Sura 2:30, 34-35, 37) and Abraham as well as other Prophets (Sura 4:163, S. 6:84) as believers. However you and other critics mainly use the Quranic verse about Moses (7:143) and try to put it along side the two concerning Muhammed (6:14 and 6:163) and you then allege contradiction/error.

Here Is The Refutation

Quite simply, the Quran does not claim Muhammed nor Moses to be the first ever Muslim. The critic imposes a faulty understanding on the Quranic verses and alleges a contradiction when there is no contradiction/error.

Despite this it is still thorough and beneficial to offer explanations in order to clear any confusion as well as help highlight the errors of the critics in the hope they realise their mistakes and abjure themselves and eventually become amongst the guided ones, Insha’Allah

Now lt's keep it simple. I feel it is logical to begin this simple refutation with analyzing the reference concerning Moses and then build upon this in a methodical fashion so that you and fellow christian readers can follow with ease. Did the Quran claim Moses to be the first ever believer?

7:143 sees Moses saying he is the first of the believers. However, we do see that this is true as he (Moses) was the first believer amongst his own people. Here is the link http://quran.com/7/143

Moses does not say he is the first believer ‘ever’. He merely claims he is the first of the believers and knowing the context one understands he is not claiming to be the first ever believer from humankind but the first amongst his people to believe, this is apparent as it is a relative term to the “believers” and situational-context tells us that the believers at the time of Moses were essentially the Children of Israel and thus we realise that Moses is referring to himself as the first to believe amongst the Children of Israel.

Critic like yourself fail to mention this and try to present this verse as meaning Moses is the first ever to believe amongst humanity, this is unfair and misleading on the part of the critic especially considering the word “ever” is not in the verse. There is further clarification of the Arabic phrase of the Quran ascribed to Moses (“awwalu almumineena”= “first of the believers”) as there is another reference in the Quran (26:51) where this term comes up and thus explaining the meaning of Moses’ statement of being the “first of the believers (“awwalu almumineena”).

So basic principle of Tafsir (explaining the Quran) is used by explaining a verse of the Quran (the verse concerning Moses, 7:143) by using another part of the Quran (26:51). So what do we learn about the statement of Moses in 7:143 by looking at Q26:51?. http://quran.com/26/51

26:51. “Verily! We really hope that our Lord will forgive us our sins, as we are the first of the believers [in Mûsa (Moses) and in the Monotheism which he has brought from Allâh].”

I dont need tp go into the context of the verse, that may be too inundated.


It is not up for debate whether Muhammad (pbuh) was the first Muslim or not. Quite simply he was the first Muslim in the sense that Muhammad was the first Muslim (i.e. who has submitted to God) amongst his own people (the Quraish) at that particular phase in history. This is completely correct. Hence there is no contradiction as Adam was the first Muslim ever while Muhammad was the first Muslim amongst his own people.

There are two Quranic references (6:14 and 6:162-163) the critics bring up, so it is appropriate to analyse the two references. The first of the Quranic references the critics cite (6:14) shows that Allah instructs Muhammed to “say” (Qul): “Verily, I am commanded to be the first of those who submit themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).”:

[b]Qur'an 6:14. Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Shall I take as a Walî (helper, protector, etc.) any other than Allâh, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? And it is He Who feeds but is not fed.” Say: “Verily, I am commanded to be the first of those who submit themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).” And be not you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Mushrikûn [polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh].[/b]http://quran.com/6/14

Also note the same applies to the second Quranic reference (6:162-163) in that it also begins with Qul (say) and Mohammed is instructed to say: “… I am the first of the Muslims”: Here is the link http://quran.com/6/162-163

There isnt any contradictions. It's very simple. I could have simply said Adam was the first muslim ever on earth. Abraham made Islam permanent. Moses was also the first muslim in his time. Jesus was the first muslim in his time. And Muhammad perfected islam and became the first muslim among his people until end of time. Simple isn't without lengthy post. May Allah's blessings and peace be upon them all. Amin

if Moses was the first believer among his people, what about his mother? Is she a sinner, bible say "by FAITH she hide Moses from Pharaoh" what faith is she practising?

Even the Arab christians of nijran keep on questioning muhammed revelation because his message was different from the rest prophet.