₦airaland Forum

The bible also says also god does evil. . .The passage below has god doing evil and apologizing for it. . .

And said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, unto whom ye sent me to present your supplication before him;If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.-Jeremiah 42:9-10

From the passage above the bible god is evil that's why he allows evil in the world. . .

macof: see mumu trying to insult me.
You made a clear statement everybody understood, to you living morally is due to the hope of having a blissful afterlife.

Which has canceled the factor of belief in Christ. That simple.
Either you edit ur post or you just keep quiet

He will never address that point, expect him to come around and do his usual Anony dance. . .

You are here, didn't you hear that pastor Jo traveled to Tanzania and healed a man with ebola in the name of Jesus?. . .Dey there. . .

MrAnony1: You did good by not misrepresenting my argument....however, there was something really interesting in your response which I will point out.

1. You DID NOT argue against the fact that IF an afterlife exists whose outcome will depend on how the present life is lived, then we have every reason to live according to the transcendent moral law by which we will be judged and that if not then we have no reason to live according to any moral laws since the outcome is the same regardless of how we lived.

You DID NOT attempt to refute the above rather you claimed that a transcendent moral law does not exist.

I have told you why we need to live moral lives regardless of whether we accept the after life or not, you just refused to accept it. . .Firstly, even if humans were immortal there will still be a need for us to live moral lives. . .We can't go about causing each other pain because we are immortal, we need to see to it that we live meaningful lives here on earth regardless of our belief in the afterlife. . .There is a point in developing character, living in peace with our neighbors and increasing knowledge before death overtakes us: to provide peace of mind and intellectual satisfaction to our lives and to the lives of those we care about for their own sake because pursuing these goals enriches our lives. From the fact that death is inevitable it does not follow that nothing we do matters now. On the contrary, our lives matter a great deal to us. If they did not, we would not find the idea of our own death so distressing--it wouldn't matter that our lives will come to an end. The fact that we're all eventually going to die has no relevance to whether our activities are worthwhile in the here and now.

Secondly, I have stated that the afterlife can lead people to act immorally. . .I have already, and gave an example with ISIS and boko haram. . .According to them they are doing what the transcendent moral law giver has told them to do, which is establish an islamic caliphate even if it means killing every body to achieve that aim, also according to them if they die in the process they get to go to heaven and enjoy for eternity. . . .So the afterlife can actually make people to live immoral lives . . .

2. It was also interesting to note that you didn't even try to refute the fact that humans and every other organism have flourished for years by the strong preying on the weak and eliminating them hence debunking your position that "diversity" and caring for the weak will enhance human flourishing.

You want me to try to refuse your points but completely stay away from my points that completely destroy you very weak arguments. . .Humans will flourish much more if every body is protected, that is the bottom line, you are yet to tell me why non christians need to live morally upright lives when they have already been condemned in the afterlife. . .In your world view non christians have no reason to live morally upright lives because they are already doomed and condemned to eternal perdition for their unbelief, tell me why they should live orally upright lives if the afterlife is what matters when it comes to living morally upright lives, , ,Why should a Yazidi or a hindu live morally upright life here on earth when he is already condemned?. . .Tell me pls, stop running away from it. . .

If all moral laws are man-made, then I don't see why they are binding upon anyone to adhere to them. "If thou shalt not murder" was made by a man then surely nothing prevents another man from making his own law as "thou shalt always murder".
To say that one law is valid and the other is not is to appeal to an independent authority that transcends man's laws.

Who made the law that the voting age in Nigeria should be 18?. . .was it Yahweh or Allah?. . .Why do Nigerians abide by it?. . .Who made the law that women should not drive in Saudi Arabia, was it Zeus or Allah and why do the women there abide by it?. . .Who made the law not to criminalize pot in some state in the united states?. . .Was it Odin or Jesus and why do people there adhere to it?. . .Show me just one moral law that was not created by man. . .ALL moral laws are man made that is why they differ from country to country and are always evolving. . .Thou shall not murder is a man made law, it was set in place to make sure that the society does not degenerate into chaos. . .Beside that murder is NOT always wrong, there is legitimate murder, if you attack me with a stick and I have a gun I can murder you and walk away freely according to the laws of some land. . .Once I fear for my life i can stand my ground, its the law of the land in many states in the USA, Travon martins is dead and his killer (a 28 years old man then) walking away freely because he feared for his life when the 18 years old boy was punching him. . .Who made the stand your ground laws?. . .Was it Yahweh?. .Why do people abide by it. . . You just keep making statements that have NOTHING to do with reality. .. In reality ALL laws are man made end of story, no god has ever made any laws for humans, humans make laws and use their various gods as an enforcing mechanism. . .Perfect example is the sharia system. . .

Let's say that we agree that there is a transcendent moral law, I hope you realize that this allows the possibility of some people to be wrong about it and that being wrong about the law doesn't in any way imply that the law doesn't exist.

Only that in reality there is no such moral law giver, humans are their own moral law givers everywhere they find themselves. . .If we are to agree why does it have to be the god of your own religion and not some other god of another religion?. . .

I will keep repeating myself until you give me an answer, why should non christians live moral upright lives since they have been condemned already for their unbelief according to your world view if the afterlife is the reason why people need to live moral lives?. . . Answer it and stop running away. . .

The reality. . .

www.nairaland.com/attachments/1695114_religion_jpeg3fd87c4c8a1ed8df94ac59a703bdf6e6

MrAnony1: I am sure that there would be no societal ills if everyone believed in justice after life and lived their lives in accordance to the transcendent moral law so as not to be found guilty on judgement day.

This sums up everything you have been saying in this debate. . .You claim that living morally will only make sense if their is an afterlife and here you went further by saying that their will be no societal ills if people live their lives according to the transcendent moral law so as not to be found guilty on judgement day, but the reality is that their is NOTHING like transcendent moral law, all moral laws are man made. . .Even if we are to agree that there is a transcendent moral law then which is it? Is it the sharia. . .Or those found in the Hindu verders for example?. . .

If we are to go by what you are saying then ISIS is actually doing what is right according to this transcendent moral law, because they are trying to establish a caliphate according to their moral law giver. . . They are trying not to be found guilty on judgement day so they have to see to it that islam takes over and the real sharia is established in accordance to their vision of the afterlife. . .

If the afterlife is true and matters then people like Osama Bin Laden are in heaven having mindless sex with countless virgins. . .If the after life is true then war criminals like George Bush will go to heaven despite the fact that he lied to the whole world and about a million people are dead in Iraq as a result of his lies(He said god told him to invade Iraq). Meaning he was carrying out god's plan. . .

The afterlife has absolutely no bearing on why people should live moral lives. . .Since the afterlife can actually make people live immoral lives, as with the case with ISIS killing people because they believe they are doing what their moral law giver has told them to do which is to establish an Islamic caliphate even if it means killing every body . . .

Under you own world view non christians have no reason to act morally because they have already been condemned in the afterlife regardless of how morally upright they lived their lives. . Muslims, hindu, yazidis for example who are living very good and moral lives but rejects the stories of Jesus are already condemned already to eternal perdition for not believing, so why should they live a moral upright life since they are already doomed in the afterlife?. . .In your worldview they have no reason to live morally because they have already been condemned in the afterlife for non believing. . .Your afterlife hypothesis has no bearing on human morality in anyway. . .When it comes to morality people need to find common ground and do what will make them flourish better collectively as human beings not because of some afterlife that has no bearing on anything humans do here on earth. . .Your afterlife justice is actually immoral and re-pungent because what system of justice condemns people for unbelief and not how they treated their fellow humans?. . .I repeat under your world view majority of humans have no reason to live morally upright lives. . .

loveroftruth: Find out why the resurrection is for the righteous and the unrighteous.

John 5:28,29.

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out —those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be judged".

And again, the bible says the judgement is a 1000yrs judgement.

Am assuming you should have known all this, if you dont and will not "ask" or research it, well.
Thats unfortunate.

Are you a robot? What has a muslim done wrong for believing in islam. . .

FOLYKAZE: What would you have to do with hateist who just hate everything about God, religion and spirituality. What baffles me most is how someone can claim to disbelieve in God but can not define what God is. The other one on another thread find it hard to define what superntural is, yet you see them shouting illogicallity to hell.
How can someone create a thread about consciousness and death, and that very person do not know what consciousness and being living or alive is not to go into the extent of death?

And pls do not challenge them. . . . . .we know very well that coward changing his moniker like clothes called Logicboy aka TheBigUrban2 who is scared of Osanyin but can come online to tell us how Osanyin is a doll. How can a matured man get scared of a doll?

Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.


The bolded describe them very well. . . .they are bunch of noisemakers

You expect logicboy to take this shapeless doll that is just whistling any how seriously?. . .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIPimX-ZiCY

This doll is what you call artificial intelligence and you expect anybody to take you seriously?. . . whistling sounds come from the doll and the man keeps saying he is interpreting what the dull is saying. . .

TheBigUrban2 see what our man is calling artificial intelligence. . .

usermane: In recent times, Mazaje has been vocal of his disdain for Islam and concern for increasing extremism in the muslim community. But, regardless of how dire the situation is, Mazaje needs to calm down. I am witness to the fact that a deep disdain or obscession for extremists will only fan the flames and even pull you onto an alternate path of extremism.

True. . .My problem is with some moderate muslims, they refuse to come out and repudiate the extremist, they just sit down and support them tacitly. . Your point is noted though. . .I am not an extremist in any way. . I believe people should live and let live, I know that the way that i put might points across are not always good but then I just speak my mind and say what I see happening around me. . .Muslims should learn to speak up and take action against the extremist against them. . .If muslims in Nigeria can pray for allah to destroy Israel I see no reason why they shouldn't also pray for Allah to destroy ISIS and BH. . .I have never heard muslims praying in mosques for Allah to destroy BH or ISIS but I have heard them pray for Allah to destroy the Jews. . .

macof: Answer me pls can there be a reaction without awareness??

Bare in mind that you are not a stone, you don't know what being a stone is like so you can only be sure they are aware of what they react to...that is if you agree there's no reaction without awareness
We don't know the full scope of a stone's awareness it doesn't talk we only know it reacts...but the question is does it react out of awareness or does reaction just happen out of nothing??

What do you mean by awareness?. . .You refuse to define what you mean by awareness. . .Define what you mean by awareness first. . .If I use a stone to forcefully hit another stone and make it move, a reaction has taken place does that mean the two stones are aware of each other?. . If yes then how so?. . .

macof: I saw ur edited post.

The question follows actually, because you define living as "Movement, respiration, nutrition (feeding),
irritability, growth,excretion, reproduction
and death."

And consciousness as "the state of being aware"

So now do you agree that non-living things react?
If yes do you think there can be reaction without awareness??

So if I carry a stone and forcefully use it to push another stone (a reaction occurs) that means both stones are aware of each other?. . . What do you mean when you say a stone is aware? . . Does a stone know that it is different from the pool of water beside it? When a wave of water forcefully cut some part of a stone does that mean the stone is aware of the water?

MrAnony1: Wrong, that is not what I said at all. Here is what I said;

a) If an afterlife does not exist then man really has no actual moral obligations i.e It is not reasonable to act morally

b) If an afterlife exists and it's outcome depends on the way the present life is lived, then there are actual moral obligations and hence it is reasonable to act morally.

Why should muslims, Hindus, Taoist, Bahi, Yizdi etc all live moral lives when they have already been condemned already according to you world view?. . .

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.John 3:18


Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.Mark 16:16

Why should non christians live moral lives since they have already been condemned to eternal perdition for being who they are?. . .Under your world view majority of humanity have no reason to live moral lives because it does not matter at all. . .

The afterlife can make people act immorally as well, if the afterlife is true then ISIS and BH are all killing people according to the grand designer and after all the attrocities they have commited they will enjoy etternal bliss while the rest of humanity will rot in hell because they refused to accept the right revelation of Mohammed. . .

Your after life hypothesis is NOT a basis for people to act morally, it actually does not believe in morality at all. . .majority of humans have no reason to act morally if your after life hypothesis is true. . .because living a moral upright life does not matter. . .what matters is the belief you hold. .

MrAnony1: Good so you do not think that a pre-life necessitates an afterlife and secondly you believe that there is no such thing as an afterlife anyway.

Continuing . . . . . so I asked you why one ought to live morally if the outcome is the same for both the moral and the immoral. This was your reply:

I don't know what you understand "worthwhile" to mean but if the final outcome is the same regardless of what you do, then you cannot say that one action was worthwhile and the other wasn't worthwhile since both ended in the same outcome.

I have already given you the definition of worthwhile in the context I used it, it simply means living and flourishing as a society or a people. . .

To give you an analogy, assuming that whether or not you work hard in the office, you will still not be paid at the end of the month regardless of whether you do an excellent or a shoddy job then there is no way one can say that working hard is more worthwhile than lazing about.

The reason humans do anything is because we look towards a future outcome. Take away that future outcome and immediately, there is no point in continuing with the present action. If you can't understand this basic concept then I doubt that I can really help you.

This your analogy is just silly because that is NOT how thing work in a normal society, when you work you get paid, when you don't you do not get paid, simple. so I fail to see how you bring or allude to an aberration and use it to make your case. . .It is actually in your own world view that such an analogy will work. . In your world view only those that believe in Jesus will be saved. .Over 70 percent of the world's population are already condemned for being who they are under your world view and have no reason to live moral lives because they do not believe in the stories you believe in. . .There are many thing that we do that do not depend on any future actions. . .The future outcome doesn't have to be eternal or because of an afterlife, when we all decide to live in tranquility with each other we do so because we want our future stay here on earth to be blissful not because of some afterlife. . .I repeat under your world view a non christian has no reason to live a morally upright lfe because he had been condemed to eternal perdition already just because he refuses to believe in stories. . .His moral uprightness does not matter. . .A non christian has no reason to live a moral life under your worldview. . .

How so? How do you make living a worthwhile experience?

By trying to live in peace with the next man. . .That way the society will flourish. . .Even your worldview teaches you to live moral lives in this world because it matters, not even because of the after life, because according to your worldview people that do not buy into your stories are already doomed. . .they have no reason to live moral upright lives. . .Regardless of the afterlife you keep yapping about. . .

Actually it does because an expected outcome is what makes the way we choose to live our lives worth the effort

Sure, the expected outcome doesn't have to be eternal. . If i go about harming others, me or my own will be harmed. . .if I live in peace with people and do right by them, the tendency of them doing right by me is also very high. . .It has nothing to do with afterlife , its effect is simply here and now. . .We expect to flourish and as such we set standards that will help us achieve that as a society, nothing to do with an afterlife. . .I repeat under your world view non christians have no reason to live moral lives because they have been condemned already. . .

This is simply not true. In a time of war, only the weak suffer, the strongest flourish and that is enough incentive for the strong to strive for war.

Not true, in terms of war every body suffers, the weak the strong, every body suffers in the long run. . .If what you are saying is true then why are the strong nations not going about destroying the weaker nations in the world today?. . .

And I have equally shown you enough reason to strive for war. By living immoral lives and robbing others we can become very rich and prolong our lives with our wealth. As long as we are clever enough not to get caught, we can live long luxurious lives while the goody-two shoes die of hunger blaming their woes on us.

The same will be done to you. . .Look at Nigeria today, where the rich feel they can have their ways and do what they want, the same rich are facing the blacklash from the poor in form of BH, Armed robbery, Kidnapping etc. . .Providing a solution to the societal ill's is what matter not the after life justice, because if the after life is true the leader of BH despite all the killings he has done will be having mindless sex with countless virgins in heaven, while you will be burning in hell despite all your upright living. . .the afterlife justice is meaningless. . .Since it is based on belief first and how you act according to it and not based on how morally you lived. . .If the afterlife justice is true then you will rot in Allah's hell along with 80% of humanity for not believing in him and Mohammed his last messenger. . .People have no reason to live moral lives if the after life according to you or the muslims is true. . .

False. The society flourishes after the strong have eliminated the weak. Besides, why should I care put the society's well-being before my own since we all die and rot anyway?

Which society will flourish after the strong has eliminated the weak?. . .Don't they weak in the society play any role?. . .The society flousishe better when their is diversity. . .You still haven't told me why muslims, Hindus, Taoist, Bahi, etc need to live moral lives when they have already been condemned to eternal perdition in your world view for being who they are. . .

Call it whatever you like, but if you are not able to demonstrate an understanding of the most basic implications of an afterlife. I see no point in proceeding to discuss with you advanced details of the various ways the afterlife is understood.

As you would have noticed again, I have not bothered to respond to your off-point monologue.

You can't respond to them because they destroy everything you have said, under your world view a non christian has NO reason to live a moral upright life because he has been condemned to eternal perdition for being who he/she is. . Not because he /she lived a morally bankrupt life. . .under your world view morality does not matter, belief is what matters first and not morality, so why should non christians live moral lives under your world view?. . .If the afterlife matters at all then the leader of BH Shekau will be in heaven enjoying countless virgins and having mindless sex while about 80% of humanity will rot in hell for being unbelievers. . .Your after life reason for morality makes absolutely no sense at all, as such you do not want to touch it, you just prefer dancing around the whole issue, under your worldview the majority of people have no reason to live moral lives here on earth because they have been condemned already for believing in something else. . .

macof: don't you get it? There are different types of consciousness, there is the consciousness in the soil, one in humans another in cats etc. even planets and stars are conscious

But we all don't have the same type consciousness even science knows that, that's why human consciousness is sometimes called sentience. there's the consciousness in various non-human animals which isn't like that in us. here's a drop: there's a different consciousness between humans like we all share 99% identical dna we are still different from each other so is our consciousness.

The allocation of our different consciousness is what we call natural selection.

for you Sentience is being confused as consciousness and no modern Philosopher would ever make such confusion. Sentience is only a branch of consciousness as such not everything is sentient by way of natural selection but everything is conscious

the problem with you is you think at death comes the end of consciousness when it is only sentience that dies (actually converts)...means we cannot feel- pleasure, pain, love, anger etc. we have no material character- greed, kindness, etc. we have no senses well at least hearing, taste, sight, smell. I wouldn't say touch.
consciousness lives on any where there's energy, and energy is everywhere

That is why I often laugh at Christians who say the creator who is supposed to be a spirit (what science calls energy) feels wrath, jealousy, love etc. when these things are strictly attributes of sentient beings.

non-sentient as I know can't reason but they can react and proact out of awareness of their environment

Ok, Fair enough, I can agree with some of what you have said. . .I just want people to be clear when they say things and you have been able to do that. . .

macof: How is "Emi re ti re koja" mythology?? You don't understand simple terms don't make it mythology.

It is mythology. . .It's no different from a christian that claimed he died went to heaven and saw his loved ones in white robes and floating in the clouds. . .What has the souls of ancestors protecting and guiding those that are alive got to do with reality?. . .Can it be objectively tested?. . .

How some religionists say evolution and dinosaurs are mythology..how are you more different from Christians who condemn without understanding?

There are dinosaur fossils available for all to see, micro evolution has been observed. . .Christians can't deny it, they deny macro evolution because it lacks credible evidence according to them, scientist insist that the principle guiding micro evolution is the same principle guiding macro evolution. . .

Where is the evidence for dinosaurs or evolution or the big bang but you consider it possible don't you? Have u observed a genus evolve? have u observed a bang of photons?? Have u seen a dinosaur fossil??

Full dinosaur fossils have been found like this one below. . .

https://www.staff.olympia.org/external/OHSLibrary/dino1.gif

Micor evolution have been observed, the principle of evolution has been used to make certain drugs, stars have been observed to be moving away from each other by space observatories etc. . .

Use ur head and understand what folykaze and I are saying otherwise you might as well say There are no planets outside our galaxy because there's no evidence for it

Attitudes like yours is a disgrace to science

I can not prove to you that Jesus is not presently in heaven siting on the right hand of god and guiding christians. .I can not also prove to you that the ancient Egyptian Pharos are not together with Ra Amun enjoying heavenly bliss. . .I don't have to bother with such mythologies. . .There is what we call reality. there is what we call mythology, fantasy and fiction. . .Egungun falls into the category of fiction and mythology. . .Even in science there is pseudo science and fringe science. . .

macof: It's impossible for your body to change to what is not conscious.
Because all things are conscious.

The moment you die u cease being a human being, you jst a dead body waiting for decomposition as your earlier sentient consciousness leaves your body

Is the soil conscious the way a human being is?. . .Is a piece of rock which your dead body can eventually turn into self aware?. . .Is it alive?. . .Can it reason, think, or know that is a being separate from another being?. .When you say all things are conscious what do you mean?. . .

FOLYKAZE: Dmitry Itskov is projecting it

and a lazy as s sites behing his computer only to talk ill about it.





Your own type of atheism is simply. . . . . . .noisemaker.

Projecting it means its true. . .if only you know how many scientist have projected many things and abandoned them. . .it is something scientist do constantly. . Project things and abandon them when the evidence is lacking. . .Projecting something means noting. . .It is you own yoruba spiritual delusion that is something eh?. . .

FOLYKAZE: Stop asking me kiddie question. . .there is nowhere I told you that I know all.

Can you pls direct your question to Dmitry Itskov, and his team who are working tireless on how to download mind on cyberspace? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2322703/Want-live-forever-Russian-billionaire-reveals-real-life-avatar-plan--says-upload-brain-hologram-immortal-2045.html ?


There is a facebook page set aside for the mission. . .there is also a designated site. . . . .where you can reach them from.


If you see a babalawo, ask him to help me on communicating with your ancestors.

There your answer lies

So because some scientist are working to see if something is possible means it;s a factual reality?. . .Their work remains a plan and an idea they believe is workable, so far they have failed to show that is it real and workable. . .So fail. . .So babalawo speaks to the people that are dead. eh?. . .What am I to do with all these nonsense?. . .Christians go to heaven see Jesus their dead relatives and come back, some have also claimed to have reincarnated. . .After all the dailama is a reincarnated god according to him and people that believe in him. . .I don't have time for all these superstitions and endless mythology. . .

FOLYKAZE: Lol

copied from Ayeakamara

"the believe that the soul of the departed fathers, mothers, grand-parents and great-grand–parents are never far away and they are available to protect, love, guide, and guard the other members of the family who are still having a physical existence in creation. We use creation in this context, because of the fact that the physical world – is the tangible and the material world, while the spiritual world is the expansive world, the real world where the real things take place before they appear in the material world. The spiritual world precedes the physical world, and it is the world of realities-THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.

These two worlds are just one continuum entity within the framework of universal existence of things or universal network."

Through Egungun/Oro, People access the mind of the dead ancestors. They sometime invoke this mind on someone and communicate directly OR they can access it through Ikin divination.

The essence is for communicating with the Mind, accessing some info among others from the dead ancestors.




It is now part of festive in Yoruba system

What am I do to with this fictitious myth?. . .

FOLYKAZE: What you refer to as human consciousness is nothing more than sentience. As it is, if human consciousness define as sentience, it cannot survive death but the center of all cognition which is MIND can of course survive death.


The Russian scientists are working tirelessly on who they can save mind after the body is dead on a cyber space. . . . . . .not withstanding, it is been done in Yoruba spirituality as Egungun.

You keep lying and making things up. .What is the mind and how does it survive death?. . .How does the mind survive when the brain is dead. . .

FOLYKAZE: Why are you sounding harsh? Is there something wrong with you?

Consciousness does not specifically applies to Human only. This is the reason I always ask you to widen your mendula when dealing with me.

Some spirituality sees consciousness in everything. Panpsychism as it is known sees consciousness in stone and trees/plants. Even your comrade Ray which you went on rampage liking his post questioned bacteria consciousness. . . . .you could not shout on him but you can come after me and bark. . . . .

This topic is specifically about human consciousness, deal with it or get out. . .

When we talk about consciousness, survival after death. . . . . .human should not be the only case study.

Again this is about human consiouesssneees not about your delusion of stone consciousness or urine consciousnesses. . .

As it is, you dont even know what human consciousness is. . . .

Really?. . .

The definition you provided is of sentience and not consciousness. Sentience has to do with brain. . . Human consciousness has to do with self.

Sorry I have helped you with definition. . . . .

But you havent provided any definition here. . . .the crap you provided is sentience confused as consciousness. . . . Both does not correlate.

This is my problem with you. you are very deluded, I gave you a standard definition of consciousness from wikipedia but you refused to accept it. . ..Seriously you are very deluded. . .

Again. . . Human consciousness is the or state of awareness, self awareness or of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. While from dictionary.com Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. How does my definition equate to sentience?. . .You are deluded. . .

What sort of childish question is this? So you dont know stones react to it natural environment? You dont know stone respond to it surrounding and external forces?

Simple google search would help you. . . . .or kindly go the street, pick a stone and do whatever you can on it. . . .observe if it react or not.

No time for kiddie questions

A stone reacting to its environment doesn't mean it is conscious. . .Is a stone self aware?. . .Does it know that it is a stone and is different to the pool of water beside it?. . .Have you shown that to be true?. . .




You could have make lot of sense if you've done away with this baseless tantrum of yours. Mr, stop attacking me. . . . .cant you just have your say and reply?

You did not define consciousness. . . . .stop lying.

Plants are living entities.
Plants are going to die
Plants are conscious

now tell me how using plant as case study is wrong.

Are you different from plants and animals?

This is not a topic about plants and animals, and yes I am very different from plant for example, i have a brain, I am self aware, a plant has no brain and isn't self aware as i am. . .If a plant dies is there any part of it that goes on to live?. . .

You havent tell me what human consciousness is. . .. . .what you defined is sentience and nothing more.

I even helped you in defining what consciousness is. . . .I defined every words to show you I know what I am saying. . . .why cant you address it rather than dodging all the time?

Stop lying you deluded good, i have already given you the definition of conscience according to wiki that you refused to accept it and try to lie that it means sentience is your own business not mine. . . . .

What is human consciousness? How can you separate this from sentience and awareness?

We are discussing human consciousness and death survival like you agree, can you before proceeding to death tell us what life is?

If i give you the standard definition of life, you'll then go ahead and claim its something else. . .LOL!

Where did I say plants are conscious like human?

Consciousness is define as state of being conscious.

Conscious is defined as being aware and responding to ones surroundings OR being aware and reacting.

Human consciousnesses is not just only being aware of ones surroundings and responding or reacting to it but also self awareness. . .A 2 months old baby responds to touch but the baby is not self aware and as such can not be said to be fully conscious. . .

You mentioned above that plant respond. . . . Responsiveness is prompted by awareness. You can not respond to or react to something you are not aware of.

Therefore, plant is conscious.

A plant isn't self aware and isn't conscious like humans, this topic is about humans, i don't wanna waste time on plants. . .

There can never be reaction without awareness. . . . .

How your logic fails to touch here baffles me.

Combination of awareness and reaction OR responsiveness is CONSCIOUSNESS.


And can you tell me how a chemical is not aware of other chemical before reacting to it.

So chemicals that react to each other are aware of each other?. When chemicals react to each other it simply involve the forming and breaking of chemical bonds between atoms. Is a bomb conscious?. . .If I drop it it will react to the things around it by exploding, does that make it a conscious being like me as a human?. . .Is a bomb aware that it is a bomb?. . .

FOLYKAZE: What you refer to as human consciousness is nothing more than sentience. As it is, if human consciousness define as sentience, it cannot survive death but the center of all cognition which is MIND can of course survive death.


The Russian scientists are working tirelessly on who they can save mind after the body is dead on a cyber space. . . . . . .not withstanding, it is been done in Yoruba spirituality as Egungun.

Pls can you expound on the Egungun. . .

FOLYKAZE: If a link is not supporting your view, it is then assumption. How do you expect every one to accept the sane thing?

Even the link is not about death, it is about the illusion of separation.


Biological death is not he end of activeness. . . .simple like ABC.


Oga tell me what consciousness is. . . . .then I can tell if it survive death.

The link it self specifically used the word maybe on the premise of the thesis leaving the entire hypothesis in the realm of assumption. . .I did not write it, the person that did clearly left the hypothesis in the realm of assumption, by the way as you noted it has nothing to do with death so I wonder why you brought it up. . .I have already given you the definition of human consciousness, if you want to go around talking about things that are off topic then go create a separate thread, this topic is about human consciousness and whether it survives when the human body dies. . .Again does human consciousnesses survive the death of the entire body?. ..

FOLYKAZE: We are discussing about consciousness and you are here forcing human consciousness into the topic as if consciousness is of specific to human alone. This is the reason why I asked you if we can also talk about stone consciousness too.
Not to talk much, stone is conscious. . . .depending on how you define what consciousness is.
And going by your definition in bold, how can you tell that stone is not aware of it environment?

This is why I keep saying that you are very deluded. . .This topic is specifically about human consciousness but in your normal deluded ways you want to push it into something else. . .I gave you the definition of human consciousness but in your normal deluded ways you deny it and want to consciousness to go by you own definition. . .Does a stone respond to anything around it?. . .If i hit a touch or pour something on a stone will it respond the way a human would?. . .Are you saying a stone is aware of its environment?. . .Can you show how?. . .

Probably you mean sentience with the bold. Ya, I understand it is synonymous to sentience but it is not the same thing as consciousness. This is the reason I asked you to define comprehensively what consciousness is.
I cant fathom why you are dodging this question.
You are still not getting it. . . .until you define what consciousness is, everyother thing you write wont have any meaning.
Let me help with my dico. .
- it is a state of being conscious.
Conscious is:

- aware of and responding to one's surrounding.
- awareness and reaction.
Awareness:

knowing that something exists, or having knowledge or experience of a particular thing.

How can plant respond or react to sunlight if it is not aware of it? When a plant is wounded, its body immediately kicks into protection mode, how does this happen if it not aware of it surrounding prompting to it reaction? Mimosa pudica respond to touch from it surrounding. . . . .how can this happen if it does not have awareness of touch? Venus flytrap instantaneous response touch and the way the plant snapped its trap shut around an insect indicated the presence of awareness and sentience. . . . .or how can the plant set trap and capture insect without have sense of touch or ability of awareness and responds to it surrounding?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-plants-think-daniel-chamovitz/
http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/062208/do-plants-have-brains
Do have a read at those two links
Can we agree plant is conscious?
Takes reation to everything we have around. Things responding to something in a particular way can be said to be reacting to it surroundings which it must be aware of.
A chemical reaction for example. One chemical would react to another in it surrounding because it aware of the properties of the other chemical.
How can vingar react to soda if they aint aware of each other properties?
If being conscious is responding to one surroundings, chemicals and every other thing are conscious because they respond to their surroundings. . .and especially externa objects.
NB: you cannot react to something you are not aware of.
In short, everything is conscious.
My take

I have already giving you the definition of human consciousness and that is what this topic is all about. . .Your delusions will not allow you to accept it, this topic is not about plants if you want to start a topic about plants go open one., . .Does human consciousness survive when the brain and the entire body does?. . .By the way the fact that plants respond to stimuli does not make them conscious like humans. . .So chemicals that react to each other are conscious of each other?. . .Your delusions is reacting new lows. . .Do you know what a chemical reaction is?. . .

FOLYKAZE: Where did I say death is separation?

You have to calm down when you are dealing with me. . . . .most essentially, save your emotions. . . . .not going to bring sense out of you.


There is nothing like death. . . . .though we perceive it exist because of the illusion of separation that clouded us. Here is a link on what illusion of separation is http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/06/02/quantum-physics-tells-us-separation-is-only-an-illusion/

What do you mean by there is nothing like death?. . .even the link you posted seems to be an assumption, it doesn't even go that far. . .The link uses words like maybe. . .

As we research smaller and smaller units of matter, it has became clear to some that there is perhaps no final unit waiting to be discovered but a fundamental unity to everything. Physicist David Bohm, whose work is described in Michael Talbot’s the Holographic Universe, calls the fundamental unity at the end of all matter the implicate order. David Wilcock makes reference to the Source Field.

It can best be said to be a speculative hypothesis. . .From the link. .Besides its not even agreed by all but some. . .

The Yoruba where from it spirituality my believe system is rooted would say 'Emi re ti re koja' meaning 'ones breath (energy-esoteric) has passed on to another realm. In this sense, there is nothing like death but transformation or changing of forms from one to another realm.


This is very simple

What am I to do with your Yoruba mythology?. . .Does human consciousness continue when you die?. . Will you be fully conscious when you die?. . .Where is the evidence for this?. . .

FOLYKAZE: Where he take tell you consciousness is energy?

Here. . .

macof:

Yes consciousness survives, there's a lot of energies reacting in our human body and life in general one of which is our individual consciousness which Yoruba call Ori, Igbo call chi, I hear the greeks called it Krestos.

he said consciousness is one of the energies reacting in our bodies. . .

FOLYKAZE: Egba mi o. . . .

How is this an epistle?

Can you show me the big words in my previous post?

At this junction man, pls tell us what human consciousness is. And can you pls specify the difference it has with stone consciousness or sun consciousness?

Stone consciousness?. . .How is a stone conscious?. . .Human consciousness is the or state of awareness, self awareness or of being aware of an external object or something within oneself. . .Is a stone aware of itself and other things around it?. . .

Asking me if human consciousness could survive death is not making sense until you tell me what human consciousness is. . . . .

What do you mean by bodily death? When part of the body is amputated and dead, how does this affect consciousness?

By bodily death you know very well that I mean the whole body, not the nonsense you are trying to say here. . .Does human consciousness survive when the whole body and brain is dead?. . .Consciousness is a function of the brain chemical activities and without the brain you can't be conscious, so again does consciousness survive when the brain is dead?. . .

Lets get down to death. . . . .what is life? Does biological death affect 'activeness' of energy in the dead body?

Yes, when you die the energy and how it flows is changed, it converts and disintegrates into something else that is not you. . .You become part of the soil, if you die in the oceans for example over time you turn into crude oil. . .Again how does consciousness survive when the brain and the whole body is dead?. . .

FOLYKAZE: Oga how many time will you be told that there is nothing like death but mere illusion of separation?

I wonder how person who has not clarify what life is would be talking of what death is. . .

There is nothing like death according to your delusions? . . .what am I to do with your delusions?. . .so people do not die but are separated, eh?. . .Separated from what? I don't have time for your constant reinvention and delusions. .

macof: Yes consciousness survives, there's a lot of energies reacting in our human body and life in general one of which is our individual consciousness which Yoruba call Ori, Igbo call chi, I hear the greeks called it Krestos.
what do you think happens to this consciousness when our human body converts to something else?

You think it just disappears into "nothing" right? Well we can argue nothing is a realm unseen.
Or you say it converts with the rest of our body by forming part of the soil?? Consciousness is not material/physical so this is out of the way

when we need that individual consciousness is let loose and returns to where it came

If consiousness is a form of energy as you say and the body dies then the energy changes into something else that is not consiousness. . .just as when you die your body forms part of the soil which is not you as a human being. . .

FOLYKAZE: Your answers lie close to the questions I asked which is begging for answers.


Mind providing answers and quit dodging everything or turning the table around?

What is life? How do you identify what is alive and not alive?

When Sun is said to die in the future, it mean it is alive. . . .how can you stress your definition of 'life' to dying sun?

What is consciousness. . .how can you differetiate it from awareness and sentience?

If we human who are made up of energy can be conscious, can we then say every other thing made up of energy is conscious?

Carl Sagan said, “We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.” Being a conscious being, we are part of the universe. . . .just like the chunk between our process our consciousness while other part of the body can be regard to as non-conscious component but our whole body is perceive as a conscious body, can we then refer to our whole universe as conscious because we been part of it is conscious?


Thses are the question you should answer. It will make you and I understand our postion. . .then we can proceed over to if consciousness and death survival.

Long epistle that says nothing. . .does human consiousness survive bodily death. . If yes how?. . Answer it and stop throwing around big words. . .

macof: We are discussing this through aren't we??
I haven't experienced afterlife in any sort but it makes total sense as[b] I have thought about it's possibility[/b]..

I don't care about heaven or hell, but having an experienced after death

It was those that thought about it's possibility that also brought us the idea of heaven, hell and reincarnation. . .How do I live when am dead?. . .Does consciousness survive bodily death?. . .

FOLYKAZE: Y'all are just throwing words. If you guys are not creating a clear path, I dont know how you all will reach a conclusion.

RayMcBlue, Mazaje and Apatheist, I will want you guys to define life. (please do stress it beyound biology)

You all can never understand the point Macof is trying to drive if grounds are not clear enough.

What is consciousness? How can you differentiate this from awareness and sentience?

Also, are we agreeing that human are made up of energy. . . .if this is the case, do we really die? Can reactions ever stop in us?

Does consciousness survive bodily death?. . When you die the chemical reactions in your system breaks down into something else. Your body disintegrates and forms part of the soil for example, the energy is converted into something else that is totally different from you. . .Again does consciousness survive bodily death, that I believe is what this topic is all about. . .