₦airaland Forum

WinsomeX: The truth is that with the horror the Kenyan lady experienced with CE, she will not entertain anything CE in her life and no one can blame her for this

Ha ha ha ha. The Horror of living symptom-free for over a year? The Horror of not taking any drugs or herbs for over a year? You guys are funny. She testified repeatedly that she's not a CE member. She only went to the HS, got healed and went back to her life. What Horror again are you talking about? Was she not living in horror for 8 years before going to the HS? Has she not lived in horror well after denouncing her healing after leaving the HS? Did you not see her write that her CD4 dropped to below 380, is that CEs fault too?

SirJohn's rebuttals make no sense. He is using the videos and pictures provided by the HS for all to see to explain his account. Anyone can see a picture of a woman in a wheelchair and say "this is not the wheelchair she came in". How would we know you are not lying? Can you give us your own pictures showing that she came in a different wheelchair or that she could walk before then?

It is only people that want to believe him that will and that's because you are not yet sick to the point that your doctors have given up on you. At that point, you will remember us.

Topgainer: Listen to yourself
Examples abound of persons in the new testament who were once part of the brethren but departed to teach heresies. In fact, that was a major challenge in the Church that Paul, Peter, John wrote about such men in their letters

I didn't say someone who was once christian can't end up speaking evil of Jesus after. I said for someone who has tasted that power from on high- it is virtually impossible, and if they ever do they will be so far gone they will never be able to repent again. And they won't be many of them!!

4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,
6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance

Secondly, John said that by mere confession of Jesus as Lord somebody is identified as a believer, that was circumstantial because the persecution at that time was that serious that no joker will confess Jesus as Lord in the public without risking the hangmen of the Jews and the Romans.

It wasn't a mere confession he was referring to. The name has to be confessed after one has believed with all their hearts that he is Lord and Christ and was raised from the dead. If someone merely blurts out the name without believing it in his heart such a one is not saved.

As for Holy Spirit speaking to you, that is between you and Him. But, I am sure that He never told you that mas.tu.r.ba.tion. is not ungodly

I can't be bold enough to call sin what God didn't call a sin. If someone has evil thoughts and as a result mas.turba.tes is it the mas.tur.ba.tion that was the sin or the "Lust"? I ask this because men whose wives use IVF have to mas.tur.bate to provide the sem-en. Are they also sinning while at it? What does the word of God say? That's what shapes my conviction.

trustman: Attending to other issues has delayed my response which I really wanted to give before now. 

To bring issues into focus I will concentrate on key things pertaining to where we started from. 

Was the man Jesus the God-man or was he just like any one of us? I believe this is the core issue. Looked at from another perspective the question could be asked in another way - did the man Jesus become God only after the resurrection?

The man Jesus was legally God but vitally man. The reality of his deity was only consummated at his resurrection prior to which he was only functioning as a man.

What brings things into clarity is what I have brought out earlier - the Hypostatic union - God and true humanity IN ONE PERSON.

When you said 'He died and resurrected but this time became GOD with a human body' I believe this summarizes your position.

Yes they where contained in one person Jesus but the God aspect was dormant if I may. The only aspect that he functioned in was the humanity.

The implication of this your position then is that if he was a MERE man and as it were 'developed' himself (growing in knowledge, increasing in faith, etc) to the point of performing the miracles he did then ANY ONE of us who can do the same (develop himself) can equally perform the same miracles. I believe that is why you made such statements as:
"Jesus could do no single miracle till he received the Holy Spirit at age 30. Until then any attributes of divinity like his prodigious wisdom at age 12 were purely coincidental."
and
"Jesus functioned 100 percent as a man. He did so to show that what he could do, other men could... ...."

That's my position but you need to include possessing the Holy Spirit, for it would be of no effect without him.

•••BTW, could Jesus have had a 'private' ministry before his public ministry? Why did Mary request Jesus to turn water into wine? Could it be that she had a prior knowledge that he could do it? •••

He had no private ministry. You have to remember 3 things: that he was baptized by John (in the presence of many) who said he saw the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus after which he fasted for 40 days and was tempted by the devil before that wedding at Cana. When Jesus returned from his temptation the bible states that he returned full of the Spirit and ministered to by Angels. So it was after all this that Mary started getting the inkling that his ministry was about start- That's the first aspect. The second is that Jesus said "Mum, mine hour is not yet come". The final aspect is that his first 2 disciples at the time (Andrew and Peter) used to be disciples of John the Baptist until he directed them to Jesus after the baptism.

Yes, just as the humanity of Christ needed to grow physically from birth through childhood to adulthood he also needed to grow in knowledge of scripture such that, like Luke 2: 40 says, he grew in wisdom. However at the start of his public ministry at age 30 he was FULLY MATURED in EVERY RESPECT and DID NOT HAVE TO GROW IN FAITH or any other thing from that point. When he led by Spirit into his initial temptations the Spirit must be sure that he was prepared for them.

The only reason he was tempted by the devil is because he had received the Holy Spirit for that was the only thing needed to begin his ministry. Yes, Jesus was fully mature but had largely untested faith- and trying or testing or applying faith is what causes faith to grow after receiving the word of God of course. It is like exercising one's muscles. Even if you eat food the muscles will grow big but what causes them to toughen up and be able to do much work is exercise. Remember another scripture says Jesus learnt patience by the things he suffered.


James 1:3-4King James Version (KJV)
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

And Paul by the Holy Spirit said faith could grow.

2 Thessalonians 1:3King James Version (KJV)
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly

So the Man Jesus had to act on his faith and display greater miracles by the Holy Spirit for example he turned water to wine, he calmed the storms and he then walked on water. That's progression. Just like raising Lazarus was, to him even raising "himself". Lazarus sisters had faith that Jesus could heal their brother while he was sick (He had healed sick folks before), they even had no doubt that he could have raised him if he had just died or had died for hours (he had done so before). But the Jews believed after the 3rd day of burying a body that the spirit of the person was long gone so when Jesus came on the 4th day they had given up all hope (But you see Jesus applied his faith again) and this angered the Pharisees this time around because they couldn't explain away this miracle like they "may" have done to the instance of Jairus' daughter or the widow of Nain's son.

A look at a small portion of scripture will show that the deity and humanity of Jesus coexisted in that ONE PERSON - Jesus Christ from birth going forward.

Lets look at John chapter 1. Here we find that the true light who was the life that was the light of men, and made all things, and was the Word came into the world and that Word was God. He came into the world and specifically to his own but neither did the world recognize him nor did his own receive him.

The Word BECAME flesh and made his dwelling among us. The Word that is God dwelt among us.

Of him John (the Baptist) declares: "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because HE WAS BEFORE ME'."
This is a declaration of the preexistence of the man they were seeing physically on the roads of Israel.

The word was at the beginning, Jesus was not. Jesus was the word made flesh. So yes, John was right in saying that the Messiah was before him but he wasn't saying this and looking at Jesus. He was teaching/replying his disciples about the Messiah (because they asked him if he was the Messiah) based on the revelations that God had given to him namely: that the Messiah will be younger than him but of course was at the beginning of time and the Spirit of God will descend on him. So when he saw Jesus coming towards him for baptism he could tell that Jesus was the one.

So again, Jesus is God but he was a man on earth.

V. 18 states that "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, HE HAS MADE HIM KNOWN. "
Here again we see a declaration that the one who made God the Father known to mankind - Jesus Christ - is the only God or as another translation puts it - God the one and only which talks essentially about the 'uniquely born one' who is the man Jesus.

The word like I told you was in the bosom of the father. The word was manifested on earth in flesh as Jesus. That's what this verse means.

When John was asked if he was the Christ he said he wasn't but went on to tell the enquirers "but among you stands one you do not know" v. 26

Going further we have this:
"29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' v. 29-30
Note again he was referring to a man that he was seeing face to face as being 'before me'.

The Christ had to be a man and not a God in reality for if he was God in reality, he couldn't have been crucified. Again Jesus "is" God but he had to function as a man- he depleted himself of all his deity (in terms of the power). He used the one's that men had to do all he did. That's why he said even a little grain of faith could move a mountain.

Tying it to the preceding verses you can see that John understood the man Jesus he was physically seeing to be the Word even BEFORE the ascension

Nope, John the baptist saw him as the man Jesus who was the anointed or sent- the Christos. The person who is describing Jesus as the WORD is John the beloved after Jesus has died, resurrected and ascended. The revelation came to John after all this and he was the one apostle who tried to prove that Jesus was the savior because he was the word made flesh that's why he kept calling him the WORD. (Recall that this book was written well after the ascension to prove the deity of Jesus)

Jesus was the God-man. So he could speak as God or as man. He was God before the incarnation. He was the God-man at the incarnation and continues to be the God-man for eternity howbeit with a GLORIFIED humanity.

I agree with the emboldened but like I have said and continue to maintain from scriptures he ONLY FUNCTIONED as man even though he spoke like God at many occasions.

He did not shut off his divinity. Neither was his divinity somewhere separate from the humanity of the man Jesus. It was the union of deity and true humanity in one person. Where necessary he exhibited his divinity.

I disagree. He shut off the USE of his divinity. Paul said so by the Holy Spirit.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,

This was the mentality of Jesus- he was God and he knew it BUT he humbled himself and made himself (of no reputation/privileges/rights/dignity) in the LIKENESS (signifying functionality) of men.

Consequently Jesus' ministry was unique. No other person could have or can be the kind of man Jesus was. Therefore his miracles too were unique; remember he had to use them (miracles) as 'sign' of his being the Messiah. So ANYONE who uses the name of Jesus for miracles can only use a DELEGATED AUTHORITY. Such a one cannot claim to be in the same class as Jesus.

Nobody is contending Jesus' deity with him- he is unique in that regard. But what he achieved by the Holy Spirit during his ministry on earth (not his death) is not beyond us and he told us exactly that. He said we would be able to do what he did and even greater. Peter also said we are part-takers/participators of the divine nature. Besides, he gave us Exousia- delegated authority, to use the Dunamis that the Holy Spirit deposits in us after we have received him.

It was difficult to see this and not comment. I feel for Kenya28 but more so about the faiths of others she might destroy with all these inconsistencies. I know the folks who want to believe her will do so willfully not minding how many prevaricated stories, instances and turns she has taken because of anger.

I believe you just said your CD4 dropped even after taking the ARVs consistently. My prayer is that you can find your first hope again- which was in the word of God as I do not trust these drugs or even the herbs. I will spare you the trauma of recounting your whole story even though unlike your recent testimonies, you weren't goaded by anyone to come here to "tell lies for God or what you believe". I do not also believe all you have said and I have strong reasons for doing so.

All the best.

honeychild: MATHEW 7:21,22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
- Jesus

Like I said in a previous post on another thread or so. Anyone can quote logos- heck, even Satan did. But when you are asked to prove it I start hearing "It is not for this era or that or even worse, that the Holy Spirit is a force or an influence" like your people I believe, teach. What does Paul have to say about the above?

Colossians 3:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

I wish Paul heard Jesus before he let the Holy Spirit teach him that or maybe Jesus is even being misinterpreted by people who are steep in unbelief. What did Jesus really even say?

Matthew 7:21-24New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Gee, if you believed in Hell you would have understood this. People will be so desperate when they are about to be cast into the lake of fire that they will say all sorts including "Lord I told lies for you, I insulted people for you, I judged people for you, I gossiped about people for you" then they will also say "Lord I even healed people for you, cast out demons, slayed people for you etc." and he will say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

I can hear some of you say "false interpretation!" Calm down. Let Jesus speak again so you would learn something today and be humble.

Mark 9:39New King James Version (NKJV)
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

So my dear, the people in Matthew 7 that you made references to never did any of those things that they SAID they did. They will only SAY so to escape the lake of fire and of course they will fail because they never knew Christ and as such never did what they claimed. Jesus said anyone who tastes of that power from on high can't in return speak evil of him. It is virtually impossible to do so. I don't know how to argue my relationship with God with an atheist for example, How do I tell someone else that I hear God speak to me by the Holy Spirit? They will call me deluded or a liar.

So whenever you listen to debates about the name of Jesus and people are raising suspicions and doubts for whatever situation like "alluding to the fact that anyone who uses the name of Jesus to wrought miracles could be occultic or fake", just know that they don't walk in that power.

Trustman

The man Jesus was appointed heir of all things. He didn't always possess all things for he didn't exist as Jesus. He existed as the word.

Hebrews 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things

When did he become heir of all things? When he died, resurrected and ascended.

3 . . .when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Jesus became better than the angels but the WORD was always better. The WORD was his deity but Jesus was the humanity. Jesus also inherited a more excellent name clearly showing that his name wasn't always so powerful even if it was always Jesus.

Jesus was the son of God because he was born of God but he didn't function as God. He had to learn obedience and become perfect.

Hebrews 5:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation. He wasn't always it because he had to obey and suffer first.

In the beginning there was the father, WORD and spirit and they always bear witness to themselves.

1 John 5:7New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

That WORD was with the father while he created the world even though the Holy Spirit was the actual craftsman. The Holy Spirit only responds to the word.

Hebrews 11:3New King James Version (NKJV)
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God

Genesis 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. This God here is Elohim in Hebrew (the 3 witnesses) but the next verse shows who was actually moving and he was the Holy Spirit.

. . . And the Spirit of God was hovering

The Holy Spirit was the actual creator. He is the one that moves from place to place and makes the presence of God real (at the same time) for the Father doesn't move- he is always on his throne. The Holy Spirit was the actual craftsman. Jesus said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the father.

Proverbs 8:28-31New King James Version (NKJV)

28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;

He was the person by the Father's side while he spoke the word. The Holy Spirit created mankind (the latter aspect of this chapter said so). Also look at what Job said.

Job 33:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

So when John said "all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made" he was referring to the WORD but we know that the WORD could only be acted upon by the Holy Spirit. So when the scriptures say Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit it therefore means he was acting on the WORD sent by the father. Now that word that was with, and also God (For you cannot separate a man from his word for example, I cannot say Trustman's word said. . .I have to say Trustman said) was what became flesh and that flesh was Jesus. The flesh was a man 100 percent even though he was actually God because he was born of God.

Now when Jesus lived he lived as a man, he grew, he prayed, he studied, he became wiser, he ate, he slept, he got baptized and he performed miracles all as a man. He died and resurrected but this time became GOD even with a human body. At the resurrection and First ascension he went to present his human blood to God the father in the Holy of Holies in Heaven for the redemption of mankind. Then God, pleased with the sacrifice of the son, as a result invested all the authority of heaven and earth into the name Jesus (Philippians 2) and appointed him heir of all things while he then took his residence in Jesus bodily (Colossians 2:9). Then Jesus returned to earth and met with his disciples and taught them some of this before commissioning them to now GO in his name: the name (not names) of the father, son and Holy Spirit. To heal the sick, baptize, preach, save etc. with the presence of the Holy Spirit who will then live in them and as such act on the word that they give because they will give those words in the name of Jesus- which the Holy Spirit answers to (John 14:26).

It is with this deep knowledge about the name, the presence of the Holy Spirit and faith in the name of Jesus that Peter and John were able to heal the man at the beautiful gate and not because of any "special era or time that they had to latch on" like some have said. Peter said "we don't have silver and gold to give to you but we HAVE the name of Jesus. They saw the name as an instrument or something to use and they had faith in the name. Not my words they were Peter's:

Acts 3:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

It wasn't the Holiness of Peter and John nor was it their own power that healed the man. It was the name of Jesus- through faith in the name that healed the man. Has the name been done away with? NEVER! Can demonic fellows or non-Christians use the name? NO SIR. The name belongs to the body of christ, that's why I am sad when God's children deny miracles wrought in the name of Jesus or claim it was done by satanic powers. That is a lie and can never be and even satan knows this.

I rest my case. Sorry for the long post.

Pennywise: You are forever lost in the things of this world and in sin to which you can have no hope of redemption. Dont you see that your preaching becomes a mockery of God's word when you lack contrition and simple humility? Dont you consider yourself therefore a disgrace to a body that professes Christ an embodiment of meekness and humility?

If a mechanical engineer stands in the midst of Mechanics and says "I am the only Engineer here" is he proud or just stating a hard-to-swallow fact? I tell you the truth it is not my perceived arrogance or non-humility that stirs up the bile in you- it is my confidence in and knowledge of the word of God that does for you would have preferred me illiterate and bumbly or scripturally incapacitated as you and your ilk of ignorant post-likers. Was Paul boasting here?


1 Corinthians 14:18New King James Version (NKJV)
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

Jeremiah 9:24 (ERV)

24 But if someone wants to brag, then let them brag about this:
Let them brag that they learned to know me.
Let them brag that they understand that I am the Lord,
that I am kind and fair,
and that I do good things on earth.
I love this kind of bragging.”
This message is from the Lord.

God has made me close to him, I fellowship with him by the Holy Spirit, I listen to his voice and I obey. I am instant in season and out, I am very rich and prosperous, a blessing to many, when I lay my hand over the sick they recover, when I pray I receive instant answers, all the things he said about believers in the word, when I took a look at my life I found it so and I make no apologies for it. In fact, God told me it would provoke rebels to anger and frustration and I have seen it live on NL.

You would never find me in the camp of those who slander God's children or make feather-weight the gospel of christ and his church with the bad news that you endorse as Gospel. You would never see a post from me insulting any Presidents let alone Pastors and leaders in God's house. I only celebrate the good things that God has done and is doing in my day and when I find like-minded Christians I feel ahome.

The people I pity are the one's who act and talk like you for those of us who have studied the scriptures into-to know your end. Many others who said worse than you have and are even more intelligent came looking for us when doctor's gave up on them. There are some others even on NL with the same caprice as you that will never post here again because theirs eyes have been flooded by God's light. My Prayer for you is that the same fate befalls you as against the destruction that should have been imminent.

This is my last post to you.

honeychild: I laugh in Spanish. He doesn't get a dime, yet lives in a mansion he doesn't pay for. Jets around the world at your expense. Uses expensive designer wear and expensive bleaching creams that you pay for, keeps his wife and kids in comfort in the UK - why not try sending your family to relocate to the UK and see what it costs to maintain a family comfortably in pounds -
Tell me again how he doesn't get a dime!

I would repeat myself again for the last time. He doesn't get a dime from the Partnership, Tithes, Offerings etc. neither does he get a kobo from the sales of any ministry books or materials (ROR included!). He relinquished his rights to a salary many many years ago. He doesn't own a private Jet neither does he have a personal house anywhere in Nigeria. But he is a very rich man and I bare him no grudges for that as I know him to be a dangerous giver and the faith he teaches he also puts to practice and the evidence is clear to all. As per his wife and kids (Thank God for the only truth in your post- you called her "wife" and not "ex-wife" like your fellow trolls) and the supposed "Comfort" they enjoy, it is not a big deal. I know someone who has worked in NNPC for about 6 years and his wife and 2 sons are in the UK while he lives in Nigeria.

trustman: It would appear that you believe that the humanity of Christ was[b] JUST AN ORDINARY MAN[/b] like any one of us; that it was not until after the cross did he became the God-man. What you are saying is that Colossians 2:9 was after the cross - "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,"; that 1 Timothy 3:16 was after the cross. What do you make of Philippians 2:6 - 7: "6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."
Jesus EXISTED eternally as God (John 1). But when he became man he CHOSE to restrict the use of his divine attributes to fall in line with the plan for the incarnation. John says "He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him." He went on to say "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." The Word who made the world became flesh and dwelt among us as Jesus. If we are to believe this John passage the Jesus that walked the earth made the world. His glory WAS seen as he dwelt among men as of the only Son from the Father. Now look at John 17:5 : "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
The man Jesus KNEW he IS God. He existed eternally but had to take on true humanity, restrict (not abandon) the functioning under his deity during this period to align with the plan for mankind's salvation and thereafter going on to be the unique person of the universe (Philippians 2:9). 

If like you said, "Jesus the man was a SEPARATE ENTITY from who he used to be" then you are saying that either:
1) He CHANGED from being who he was which means the other person he was ceased to exist or
2) There are 2 SEPARATE beings, one the WORD and the other Jesus. 
Nothing in scripture supports this. 
The Holy Spirit was the agent of the conception of Mary not the Word - Luke 1: 35   "And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy-the Son of God.". Unique conception, unique-born one. 

Coming to the second part of that your statement - If he was born of God and therefore the Son of God and therefore God that means he is UNIQUELY DIFFERENT from the rest of us. This is what I've been saying all along. His not functioning as God while here on earth does not make his essential nature the same as ours. Like I said as God and man in ONE PERSON he chose to restrict the use of his deity because there was a plan. Jesus KNEW who he was - "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God," (John 13: 3). 

We must derive our positions from putting scripture with scripture. When in referring to the Philippians passage you said "This clearly shows that Jesus' name wasn't ALWAYS THE NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME" were you referring to his humanity or deity? Did he have a glory with the Father before the incarnation? 

In his humanity Christ was free from the devil's rulership and from the influence of the old sin nature. That is UNIQUENESS. 2 Peter 1:16-17 referenced the transfiguration. 

In Jesus God was not just shifting state like water from liquid to solid to gas and back. The man Jesus was still GOD. He only RESTRICTED the use of his divine attributes. 

And so as he went about fulfilling the script as it were for mankind's salvation Jesus could decide to heal. He DID NOT go about asking for the sick to be brought to him for him to heal them. He only did as was necessary. His central message was like John the Baptist had proclaimed - 'Behold the lamb of God who TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD'

Healings and miracles for man were incidental to that central message. If he healed all and they still refused him as the Messiah, they will end up in hell. Physical healing on earth would then be inconsequential. 

The core mandate for the Christian today is 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel'. The emphasis should be on that which will guarantee man's eternal destiny with God; not on that which will last only for the here and now. 

Healings then should not be given the prominence over the salvation message as HEALING SCHOOLS have become. They don't even begin to address man's most important needs.

When I have the time I will explain myself better. I may have to go to territories that many may have speed-read out of their bibles.

There were always 3 that testified and lay claim to Godliness: the Father, the Word and the Spirit. In the beginning of time and till bethlehem the word was inseparable from the father. When that word was released to Mary she took in and gave birth to the man Jesus.

Philippians 2 says even though the Man Jesus was in every way God and didn't think it robbery to say so BUT he made himself of no reputation and functioned in the likeness of men. The word "But" in English affects everything before it was used. If Paul says BUT he made himself a man that is exactly what Paul meant.

Did you notice in John 1 the bible didn't say Jesus became flesh? It said the WORD became flesh and that flesh was called Jesus. Who are the people who saw his glory and when did they see his glory? The disciples were the one's who saw his glory and they saw it when he resurrected (remember the book of John was written well after the ascension). That glory that Jesus returned to in John 17 was the glory that God had (which the WORD also had because they were inseparable). That's why I said Jesus made "God-like" claims.

The Holy Spirit is the doer of God's word and the conveyor of his presence. He is the one who actually does the works after the word has been sent. For instance, when God created the world he spoke the WORD but the scriptures tell us the SPIRIT was the one that moved. So when I said the WORD impregnated Mary I am still saying the same thing: God sent his word but the HOLY SPIRIT performed the word. ( I will prove everything from scripture when I am chanced).

I agree that Jesus is unique and I never denied that truth. I am only saying while he lived and walked on earth even though he was indeed God, he did all as if he was a man to show us that MEN could do this if they believed in God.

Speaking on his name, it was revealed and not ALWAYS so and Paul taught that repeatedly. The WORD was with and in the father but the man Jesus wasn't. When the man died and resurrected he ascended to heaven and now sat on the throne. That was when he had his name exalted. Paul said he received the name after he purged us of our sins and sat down on the throne and I will show you everything scripture upon scripture later God willing.

Jesus took away the SIN of the world we agree. But the SIN of the world was accompanied by some consequences and he also took them away. That's the central theme of his message and why anytime Paul and co preached the message their hearers always developed a faith for any aspects of the consequences that was still in their lives for example, sicknesses and diseases. Jesus also gave instructions for us to teach and preach the gospel as well as heal the sick. We cannot isolate what aspect of the instructions that we want to believe and act on neither should we berate those who dare to act on all. That's my submission.

(Will edit and post scriptures later)

Pennywise: The likes of mbaemeka make a mockery of peoples faith and God. He has no fear and no respect for God. They summon the bible at will and give wrongful and occasionally bizarre interpretation not to exhort God but to arrogantly explain and justify their failing as a man. In the end he takes the unwary with him into the pit of hell fire.

With this kind of behavior judgement for him does not start when he dies, it starts right here on Earth. In your work place, family and society. I had earlier alluded to the fact that I have loved ones in cec. It is important to me that they are taught honest biblical precepts and not indoctrinated in the way of mbaemeka who has become a virus infecting people with fake and heretic doctrine.

The moderators should not attempt to remove any post on this thread. This is not a diversion. What is on display here is arrogance, pride, falsehood (who knows what else mbaemeka has) in the cloak of born again christianity as preached in christ embassy and how to know and avoid them. I am on a public service exposee mission. He claims to work with a multinational. Shows he is a liar too bc With an attitude like this I guarrantte he camnot earn 3 consequtive salaries bf he is sacked.

I don't need to mouth off my achievements both in the secular and spiritual sector for those who really know me know what I am about. I know the ire that wells up in children of Satan when they see others who believe the word of God so much so that they are ready to stake their lives on it.

That such confidence isn't first nature to you should not come as a surprise. When the apostles were mere 'disciples' they didn't have such boldness but when they received the Spirit of Christ they were able to face even rulers and kings unperturbed.

If you are truly taught the word of God you ought to have such confidence because it comes with the accurate teaching of the word. God spirit counsels you from within even as your spiritual eyes become enlightened to the fatherhood of God. At such a point no one can argue you out of the word for you have already felt, tasted, touched, drank and even fellowshipped with that more sure word of prophecy.

If everything I said above flies over you then you need not fret for you are in the camp of the uninitiated. That's why you speak about high matters so disdainly and make presumptive prevarications concerning issues that God hasn't revealed to you. The school of the went in contrast to the school of the sent.

When you are done with your exposee let us know. Others who lay a better claim to the word that you attached to your moniker have tried and failed. Their carcasses are laid bare in most of the threads that I have graced. When you stand in the way of where God's spirit is headed this type of delusion and frustration (the one you're presently suffering) envelopes you. For some men are raised for the upliftment of many and for the destruction of some.

shdemidemi: The name false teachers are giving God in town today isn't his name. I do not want to believe you don't understand the setting of the bible, you probably wouldn't accept the truth because you are not ready to serve God as God but as a means to problem solving. We do not scamper to the epistles to find out what to do to be saved, ignoring the conditions by going back to a time when we were not even a part of the fold as Gentiles. A time when Jesus said his good news was to be heard by the Jews only.
What are 'signs'? You will do well if you understand the actual meaning of a SIGN.
These 'signs' (Mark 16:17)were all recorded in the book of acts, the signs gave room for the creation and perfection of the body of Christ. These signs were not an end on their own, there was a reason why the sign was done. Now we have arrived at where the sign directed us, we are expected to commit our lives entirely to God rather than look for another sign that will definitely lead us to a different location away from God.
Christ suffered a gruesome death, is the bible saying we must suffer exact same shame and death? No. The apostles thought themselves privileged to suffer on all sides for God. Paul said every single day he was scared he was going to die, but everyday he finds himself alive he continues to preach the gospel. These sufferings were relational and unique to different individuals. Paul had his share, timothy had his, the disciples were not exempted but MBA emeka wants the glory but not the suffering. More like a pregnant woman who wants a child without going through the pain of conception.
Moving from the period before Jesus' death and resurrection, the body of Christ i.e the church was presented with a gospel of grace.
This gospel teaches that God has advance information about every single thing we will go through as Christians. This gospel made us understand He will never leave nor forsake us, nor make us go through challenges(there will be challenges) we can't surmount.
This gospel of grace teaches that we accept and embrace our lot and accept whatever God says rather than messages based on our lust.
Any church teaching that falls back to man like the CE does is false. Christ did not die so I can have money, He did not die so I can live in good health- these things I enjoy like an unbeliever does. For if Christ died because of these things that the heathens also enjoy, it would have been a wasted death. He died so I can have hope of a blissful and eternal life to come. Even if I make the eternal life with one eye, or one leg glory be to God.
You claim you don't look for signs and miracles yet you defend a mortal/fallible man like yourself who create a place and time to perform wonders to those who he thinks deserves it.

As is customary to you, you didn't answer the question but trudged on in endless drivel about the gospel of grace- a gospel that you of all people should know well enough to know that you cannot teach me anything about as I not only teach it but I live in it daily to the shame of the devil and his misled proponents.

There's no need to ask me about signs and what they meant. I can write a book on it. Let us focus on what Jesus said there and discuss the interpretations he gave namely: Heal the sick, cast out devils, speak in tongues etc. He gave the instructions to those who believe and not to Jewish folks when the Gentiles were not in the fold.

In actual fact, "Jewish folks when Gentiles where not in the fold" has become a cheap excuse for unbelief. Paul repeated such admonition ad nauseam through out his epistles and even prayed it for all the churches he Pastored. When you are shown it, you then limit it to whatever that region is as you keep shifting the limits to remove yourself from the instructions.

When did the signs get to where they were sent and which verse of scripture supports you? What makes a christian of today different from one in Corinth in Paul's day? And how can you ascertain that what you believe is the truth?

It's all unbelief veiled with isolated logos and flimsy excuses. What does a lazy man who believes in God but is broke have to do with the sufferings of Christ? What does a man who live in a dirty mileu and as a result is ridden with sicknesses have to do with the sufferings of Christ? Was Paul scared to die that he was a human being living in precarious times or was he scared to die because he believed in Christ and those who believed like him were being killed for that?

Any gospel that doesn't make an impotent man like the one in Lycaonia to have faith to be healed is an incomplete one and anyone that says God doesn't want the Christian healed is demonic and worthy of a double-curse. Any gospel that says the heathen and Christian enjoy the same health benefits or prosperity, peace, well-being etc is from the quarters of the misinformed. The gospel of waiting to have eternal life in some distant future wasn't taught by the apostles. John said "I am writing these things to you people who say you believe in the name of the son of God so that you will know that you HAVE eternal life and so that you will TRULY believe in the name of the son of God".

So instead of the incessant bickering that sense-ruled men revel in because they lack the signs that should follow true believers. Let us take the word of God and act like it is true because it is.

Pennywise: All of a sudden, u are a dignitary now worth insulting bc I called u out? When I say your like nauseate me I truly meant it. You and the whole generation of bible thumping pseudo born again impostors who use Christianity as a tool for social climbing. U want instant social elevation and wealth without having to work. Go get a real job. The falsehood shows clearly to everyone (except you) in what u say and what u do. .I know a real Christian when I see one.

U are probably a pastor in Christ Embassy already. Everyone you see is. You dont have to be a public nuisance. You owe that much to your employer and your livelihood

U may insult me but I assure u that the insult will be multiplied 10 fold and rest squarely on the head of your god Pst Chris. Yes he has drawn a lot of people to Christ and made them feel better about themselves thank God.

But he has also created a big problem for society in producing and disseminating numerous mbaemeka all over the landscape. That bothers me. And not because of miracles whether faked or not.

Just as I predicted- frustrated and confused. Perplexed at my confidence in the word of God and rattled by my assertiveness. I am not a Pastor (even though most of the Pastors in the ministry I worship with work and make a good living). I work an 8-hour a day job in one of the biggest companies in the world and God has blessed me tremendously to add to the fact that my folks ain't broke. You are not educated in the things of God so it shows up in your "criteria" for determining who an imposter is. (Hint: use a mirror).

I know the scriptures irritate you but I will help some of your ignorance by showing you what and who I referred to as dignitaries


1 Thessalonians 5:12-13New King James Version (NKJV)

12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

2 Peter 2:10New King James Version (NKJV)

10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries

Keep insulting the president and even Pastors. The bible describes you very well- presumptuous and self-willed. There is a special judgment for your kind and I do not envy you. So please add this to your criteria for spotting out who a "true christian" is as you clearly do not have a whiff of such knowledge (and I am putting it mildly).

[quote author=trustman][/quote]I understand everything you are trying to say but you still do not understand me so I implore you to meditate on these verses of scripture and get what I am saying. If you can understand this it would revolutionize your walk with God. Paul said this by the Holy Spirit.


Philippians 2:5-11King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What I am sharing with you is what the scriptures refer to as the "Mystery of Godliness". Jesus the man was a separate entity from who he used to be- the word which was inseparable from his father. That word of GOD impregnated a woman who gave birth to the man Jesus. Because he was born of God he is therefore the son of God and therefore God and he knew it BUT that wasn't how he functioned on earth. Paul said so in the verses above that I posted. Even though Jesus was God and he didn't think it sacrilegious to aver such Paul said he made himself of no reputation and functioned like a man. He obeyed "God-his father" till death. Paul then says "wherefore" which means as a result or because of Jesus' obedience to death, God highly exalted him and gave him a name which is above EVERY name including the names in heaven, earth or in Hell. This clearly shows that Jesus' name wasn't always the name above every name. The name (the power and ability invested in the name) became so as a reward for his obedience to die for mankind. The name became salvific and the name had all authority in Heaven and in earth. Remember that before his death satan told Jesus that he had all the authority in earth. Now after His death and Resurrection Jesus says he now has even the authority of earth. That's the mystery.

That's why Jesus had to grow up like any normal man would. He had to study the scriptures like any other man, he had to grow in wisdom, he found favor in the sight of his neighbors whilst growing etc. That was him growing like a man for if he functioned as God he wouldn't have needed to go through all these. Even if he had supernatural ability to learn quickly and confound his teachers they are all within the ambit of his "Manliness". That's why when he made his claims of being "I AM" or the Messiah the Jews didn't accept him and saw it as blasphemous. They felt the Messiah would not come from any place where people would see him grow or what not. They thought the Messiah will just appear out of thin-air. So for Jesus, a man that they could see and touch to claim so was wrong to them.

When he took his disciples and showed them a glimpse of his "deity" it didn't make them see him as God per se. They just saw him as a very powerful prophet, the anointed one, the son of God etc. Remember God spoke out from heaven and called Jesus his son and told them to hear him. That wasn't Jesus functioning as God. He was functioning as a man- one very close to God. In fact, apart from dying on the cross every other thing Jesus did on earth he did as a man that's why he repeatedly rebuked his disciples when they couldn't do what he did. That was the level God wanted man to function in but we couldn't because of our sin-nature and Ignorance. That's why man needed to be born-again.

So you need to have this in view when you say Jesus was unique or in a class of his own- which he was. The only class of his own that he was then was his nature (Inherent life and sinless blood) and not the miracles he was able to do. Jesus did no miracles till he received the Holy Spirit and Satan didn't know who Jesus was until that day. That's why satan tempted him just right after it. If satan knew who Jesus was he would have been more specific in trying to get him killed as a baby and If he saw Jesus as anything but human he would have not tried to get him crucified at all. Satan too was sold on the humanity of Jesus. That was the mystery of Godliness; that God became a man and functioned like one; showed us what we ought to be doing; died; resurrected; became God back; and gave us the ability to be like him. Period.

Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God
30 he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted
36 that God has made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

If someone goes to heaven now, they would not see God- the father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You would see the man Jesus seated on the throne. He is now by the right hand of God which means on the place of power. The fullness of the Godhead are now in Jesus bodily. Jesus is now Lord, God and Christ. That's why salvation wasn't to those who believed in Jesus as a good man or a prophet etc. Salvation is in believing that that man Jesus, is now Lord and Christ.

Colossians 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

When did this happen? When he ascended after he was born, died and resurrected. Till then he was just a man that needed the Holy Spirit to do all the miraculous things he did. And we have received that same Holy Spirit. That's why the same signs ought to follow us like they did him when he was a man.

shdemidemi: May be the Jesus preached by Paul is different from your one.
Romans 8
17 And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.

Bitter truth, The caveat for reigning with Christ is there for all to see.

When we pick and choose scriptures we come up with your understanding. I have not doubt accepting this scripture because I know what it means and I don't debate it or give it my own personal interpretation. What are the sufferings that christ suffered? They are the ONLY things we are to suffer in. I like to know your take on that because that verse of scripture clearly said- We must share his suffering.

Also I find it very very funny how you easily accept this verse as one for all Christians but give "dispensational" excuses for this:


Mark 16:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Have you seen the scriptural backing for my statement that "I don't look for signs or miracles, they follow me because I believe"? That verse said THESE signs shall FOLLOW them that BELIEVE in Jesus. That is why we lay our hands on the sick. We do so because Jesus said the sick will recover. So what's your point?

PastorKun: Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Thanks Kunleoshobi.

honeychild: Who told you he doesn't get anything in return? For one he has hundreds of thousands of 'worshippers' who are ready to give him a substantial part of their earnings? Try and calculate what percentage of your earnings you use to partner the church each month....then say again thy Chris gets nothing in return for his staged miracles!

He doesn't get a dime from the partnership alms regardless of what you want to believe. I know so I can tell you.

jared007: This funny merry go-round thread is still on? CEC haters don't u think its time we end dis thread? Joagbaje, mbaemeka and Gombs pls let's stop replying those knucke-heads

I shall heed your advice bro and bow out. Thanks and God bless you real good!

Shdemidemi, need I say more. You have preached on dispensations, replacement theologies, dual nature of the christian and the Pope being the anti-christ. All these easily come to mind. Maybe I should ask Trustman and WinsomeX what they feel about some of your scriptural positions if my interpretations is the issue.

Yes, other Sons of the Law were given the scriptures to read out but none of them ever spoke about fulfilling it that is why he angered the folks in Nazareth. In Capernaum, they were more receptive saying "he speaks with authority and not like the others [Sons of the Law]". They said this because he read scriptures and proved them to be true. He didn't say it wasn't for this dispensation or that.

There was a man named Simeon who said the Holy Spirit told him he would be alive till he saw the Messiah. Nobody was there with him. If someone today says the Holy Spirit told him to start a school and heal people free of charge, you would tell him to show you the word school in the bible. All such reasoning isn't about scriptures or the man in question as Joagbaje said. It is about refusing to accept anything that questions your theology regardless of the basins of scriptural references made in support of the concept you have endorsed as false.

There's demonic possession and then oppression. Demonic possession is not possible for a christian because the Holy Spirit cannot share his abode with the devil or any of his cohorts. The abode is the man's spirit. But demons can fasten themselves to a christians body and oppress them with sicknesses, diseases, accidents etc. Demons can also attack a Christians mind (which explains why some 'christians' talk the way they talk). In any of the cases above the wonderful name of Jesus is the solution.

The fact that you haven't seen eyes pop out an erstwhile vacuous socket doesn't mean it doesn't happen even till date. Perhaps if you see it you will call it magic and lying wonders. Whatever the case is it is better we did as much as Jesus did first before bothering about if we are doing greater works as he prophesied but when threads such as this or any others are created to question miracles and gainsay them, then we need not wonder why we are not achieving as much as Jesus said we would. The reason is flat out ignorance of scriptures and demon-induced unbelief- nothing else.

As per chasing "signs and wonders" lol, nothing could be further from the truth. Signs and wonders will accompany those who truly believe. That's what the scriptures say.

Selah!

Pennywise: Then comes mbaemeka who is the exact composite of what a true Christian should not be in being arrogant and abusive. I dont bother read him because nothing nauseates me more than a rude, offensive persona masquerading as a child of God- probably the result of years of brainwashing by his branch pastor.
This attitude bothers me because I have relations in different parts of the country that attend this Church. I hate to see their life condemned on account of behaviour they picked up in their place of worship.

It may interest you to know that barring today I would not have known this moniker neither would I have given any less of a damn hadn't you mentioned me and the reason is clear- you do not count. Someone who spends most of his > 3000 posts insulting dignitaries and talking about other men's matters doesn't even know what christianity is let alone who a christian should be.

Look at where you are standing to talk about being brainwashed, you that read a story on the Internet about a man's marriage and whimsically declared yourself judge, jury and hangman all in one. You are as guilty as the people you term brainwashed but yours is in the negative direction because you are brainwashed to accuse them for not being rebelious like you.

I am sure you would have preferred us to leave the scriptures and discussed spiritual matters by reasoning them out with the manly folly that most of you extol over God's word. Or maybe you would have preferred us to speak with less certainty and assertiveness so you would be consoled that everyone is as frustrated and confused as you.

Well, guess again, for the 'arrogance' that has you itched and throwing fits is the same one that makes demons fume and scamper which actually makes sense given that you belong in the same camp with them.

saasala: Here's my reply

(1) Why should I go to church to worship God and have my manliness erect, commit fornication in my mind because one of the choir members leading praise and worship would not cover her booobs. Instead of worshiping God, I start imagining myself sucking her booobs because her jerry curled pastor wouldnt correct her.

To those whose hearts are pure all things are pure. The reason you had those thoughts is because you have a problem- not the "Jerry curled" Pastor or even the girl that didn't cover her boobs.

(2) The bible says "Honor the LORD from your wealth And from the first of all your increase" It means every time you are being increased or promoted in the office, sow the first part of your increase. i.e If you were earning 200k and your salary increased to 250k, sow the first 50k to God which is the first fruit of your increase. But they tell you to sow your first salary in the year at C.E

CE teaches both. Those who want to do the whole thing aren't wrong. Your own greed and conscience was disturbing you and I am sure you never gave.

(3) Most people who gave everything didnt do so because they wanted to, they gave their all because they wanted to please the pastor. Example is the sheraton guy who stole the company's money to sow seeds. Shey God dey tell people make them go steal to come sow seed for church ni?

What a member you were! Shame on you. You think that a church will teach anyone to steal money to sow seeds- you are a disgrace to Christianity. How do you think someone stole money and gave all the money to the church? smh. Let me correct your falsities. FYI Lawrence Agada stole money from Sheraton but he didn't bring all the money to church he didn't even bring up to 25%. He bought a generator and gave offerings, period. When he was found out by his company and they wanted to recoup all the money as some had been spent on his own personal expenses etc. They then told him to claim that he gave all the money to the church so that the church will be asked to remit it. They even asked him to say the money went to Pastor Chris- even when Lawrence Agada's church was a satellite one. Besides, the Pastor of the church immediately returned the generator to Sheraton- but the media didn't tell you that.

(4) C.E members would rather take the money to the church to be praised publicly by the pastor than give you the money. I know of more than 10 cases. The pastors dont tell the members to help one another, they tell them to sow seeds. Example is a sister who sowed all she had, later she needed about 50k to complete her rent because she was squatting with a friend who was showing her hell on earth, she told all her leaders and brethren, no one helped her, and she sees the same people coming out to give in hundreds of thousands every Sunday. She told me she left the church because of this

Tales by moonlight. If the members give the church more than they help other members then the blame is on them and not the church. I help others even as I give to God and I learnt that in church. If you didn't learn so that's because you were looking at people's boobs instead of listening.

(5) It is written gbagada on Rhapsody of realities that Chris Oyakhilome and Anita (dont know what her new surname would be) owns it. They are the author, they are the owners. The author of a book owns the book and the money from the sales of the books goes to their account. If you sow a seed into ROR, you are sowing into their pockets

Thrash! Pastor Anita has no new surname. Member ko, member ni. Besides, they are the authors of the book meaning they write the materials that is published but they do not get a dime from the sales of the book. The proceeds are used to pay the staff of ROR, improve prints and quality etc. When you sow into ROR you are making sure that someone somewhere will get the copy of ROR free of charge and not to the pockets of the authors. Take this information from a real member- one who shares the vision of the ministry.

(6) Why then are people dying to receive the awards? I would rather let God award me than Chris Oyaks

Did they tell you that they would not rather God REWARDS them?

(7) Do you know how much that guy must have given before getting that SUV?

Given to who? Did you understand that story at all? Pastor Chris didn't award him the car- he said God told him to come to the meeting to give the 'sound guy' that car. That's why the story was interesting as the 'sound guy' had almost gotten home but then decided to go back to church because he revered his MOG not knowing that God called that meeting for him especially.

( 8 ) People can force you to give without you knowing it when you see them as demi gods and worship them instead of the Almighty. They coax you, they dont coerce you

Boring and irreverent.

Without even mincing words I am happy you left the ministry. You are the sort that gives us a bad name. Thank God you left. Enjoy wherever you now are.

trustman: I have in the past pointed out your attitude which to say the least is VERY NEGATIVE. You actually attach your faults on others and blame them for it. You THINK you ALWAYS have a superior argument. This is expressed by your OBSESSION to fire back at every comment against your position. You will do so with this my post.

You bet it. I have been on NL longer than most of you and I don't have as many posts as some because I am not on every thread saying things that I haven't properly studied-something most of you are guilty of though some more than others.

Have you ever heard of the Hypostatic union? Simply put it the teaching that Jesus Christ was BOTH undiminished deity and true humanity IN ONE person for ever. While he was on earth he was what I just described above. Now is there ANY other human being that can be described in the same way? Maybe you guys know. I would say NO ONE.

Oga, I agreed in the previous exchange that Jesus was 100 percent man and 100 percent God while on earth. I said he functioned ONLY as a man while on earth while he made "God-like" claims. That's what Paul meant by:

Philippians 2:6-10New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself

Jesus knew he was God but he let himself be subject to principles and systems of men- he humbled himself that way. That's why he ran away when he was threatened on some occasions and when Peter brought out a sword to fend off soldiers Jesus reminded him that he could have brought the host's of heaven to fight for him (a statement Elijah also made many years before). That's true humility: having power and choosing not to use it; thinking less of yourself without thinking of yourself, less.

When you therefore belittle the UNIQUENESS of Jesus Christ one wonders which Christ you believe. When the angel announced in Luke 2: 11-:For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." was that baby in a manger the savior and Christ the Lord or just like any other human being? What sustained his humanity from there till and then through his public ministry? His human will-power? According to you it had to be because you NOT ONLY compared him with a prodigy you claim "Jesus could do no single miracle till he received the Holy Spirit at age 30. Until then any attributes of divinity like his prodigious wisdom at age 12 were purely coincidental." COINCIDENCE? So to you the workings of God in Jesus were just a matter of CHANCE.

Nobody can belittle Jesus- even if they tried. Jesus is the Christ and Lord and I believe there is a general consensus on that matter but the baby in the manger was not yet the savior even if he was appointed unto that. The bible says the young boy Jesus grew in wisdom. Tell me, will God need to grow in wisdom? Is God not the very essence of wisdom? When I compared Jesus to a child prodigy I was indirectly telling you who he was as a boy- a prodigy. That God made him so wasn't by chance but linking it to his divinity is wrong and that's what I challenged.

And yes, Jesus did no miracle till he was 30. The bible says so and tells us why- the Holy Spirit, the author of the miracles hadn't come upon him. Read this:

John 2:11New International Version (NIV)
11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

This was after he had been baptized. Until his baptism, even Satan did not know who he was that's why he made random attempts to kill him as a child.

I want to ASSUME you agree he had[b]NO SIN NATURE[/b]. If for that FACT alone he still in your estimation DOES NOT qualify to be in a class of his own then I wonder what you guys are thinking. Except like I said you just want to 'puncture' every 'opponent' points whether good or bad.

Jesus, the son of Man had no sin nature I agree. But this is not what made him perform miracles- the Holy Spirit's presence in him was. The uniqueness of Jesus as a class of his own was that like Adam he represented mankind. Whatever happened to him would affect the rest of us who are born after him like it affected us since we were born after the first Adam. That's why Jesus was a class of his own- nothing else.

So you sincerely think that as at the time he started his ministry he still had TO GROW HIS FAITH [/b]that is why his miracles KEPT IMPROVING? In spite of what he proved himself to be at 12 years?

He grew in wisdom, he grew in faith, he grew in knowledge, he grew in stature, his miracles kept growing greater etc. He didn't prove himself to be anything but a supremely intelligent young kid at age 12. His divinity was yet to be manifest till he died and resurrected. Until then, he made claims to it but never manifested it till his death. When he resurrected, Thomas called him Lord and God not just the "son of God".

Did Jesus [b]SOLICIT for people to be brought to him in order for him to perform miracles? The answer is No. That is what is meant by the fact that Jesus' miracles WERE NOT formally arranged. That people brought the sick to him in droves or individually DOES NOT remove from the fact that he DID NOT set up a healing school OR even set apart specific times in his day or week solely for miracle working. They just come in the ordinary course of his business.

Jesus gave instructions to his then disciples to go in 2's healing the sick and preaching about the kingdom. They didn't go around and expect sick people to just come to them spontaneously- they were sent to go out and heal them while teaching. Besides, Jesus read Isaiah's prophecy and told everyone in the synagogue that the prophecy was fulfilled by his presence. He was basically asking the sick, blind, lame etc to come to him. they didn't just randomly come. So the fact that "Healing Ministers" today have schools for it doesn't make them wrong. They are bringing organization to it just like we have Televangelists today. I must not go about on foot to preach, I could do it via the internet or with a vehicle etc.

So check this out again:
Jesus’ miracles were not formally arranged. It did not take those healed days or weeks to be healed as a result of their needing to increase their faith to be healed. There is no record that anyone he healed came back to say he ‘lost’ his healing for any reason.

Jesus didn't use the internet to preach or teach. Some sick people needed more faith to get healed. The man whose son was possessed by a deaf and dumb spirit asked Jesus to help his lack of faith- Unbelief.

Mark 9:23-25New International Version (NIV)
23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

Did you notice Jesus asked the Demon never to enter the boy again? Why do you think he said so? because the demon could enter again and make the boy deaf and dumb as well as epileptic. That's why someone can lose their healing- Jesus is saying so again but if you have no experiences in casting out demons or praying for the sick, you would not know.

Now please show me where scriptures that states that no one lost their healings or that the healings were irreversible, I ask for the umpteenth time?

If we come to an account as this:
14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”
The question should be 'What is SOMETHING GREATER that can happen to this man? Greater sickness or what?

Jesus said something WORSE could happen to you. A WORSE SICKNESS than the one he had previously suffered.

Still on this issue of 'greater', when Jesus said greater works what did he mean? Are we to look at 'works' from the perspective of miracles alone? Can any single man since Christ claim that he alone has done greater works than Christ did? So how is that verse to be understood?

Jesus said that GREATER WORKS than the miracles he had done. The works meant miracles. The preceding verses 10 and 11 state so unequivocally. Jesus said the "Father in me (Holy Spirit) does the works" What works? The miracles, signs, wonders. In verse 11 he said even if you don't believe me, believe the works (Miracles) for no one could do what he did except God was with him.

No single man need claim anything. Let us first of all do what Jesus did before we can bother about being or doing greater. But ignorance and unbelief has made many not to bother doing anything instead they hurl abuses and persecute those who dare to.

So,
What percentage of those who come to the healing school eventually get healed?
How much do the procedure for healing there line up with what we have in the New Testament?

The procedures line up as much as using the internet to preach does. Let us not split hairs unnecessarily. And as per the percentage who keeps the figures? I see more people get healed instantly than those I have ever seen in any hospital for the same sicknesses and even worse. That's a good way to start.

SirJohn: Again you evade talking about your take on the video posted
Well Bro, you have already taken a side on a matter so what difference does it make. I called the lady and her brother and they never admitted that she was blind period. I'm sure joagbaje still has her contact, you can do a follow up yourself . He told me he had proof of a boy healed of a hole in the heart, when I demanded he provide the x-rays showing the before and after, he started brandishing numbers of other people. tell me why would I call anyone again when I have been accused of lying with the first one I called?

I am not interested in the videos because they are not referring to the HS and the only videos you have as regards the HS was provided by CEC. If they are smart enough to deceive people for how many years now, why do you think you would spot any discrepancies in the videos they provided for your viewing? As per, your exchange with Joagbaje I believe I have stated my position on the issue and I believe him over you. For starters, I know someone that attends the same church with him who tells me of all the miraculous things he sees happening regularly Or maybe he too stage-manages it?

You are one very funny guy, you enjoy making things look complicated. Every picture I have posted from the HS have been from either the HS site or the HS magazine. I have not denied that and it doesn't make any difference where the pictures are from. in my last post I said "Those were not just pictures from the healing school website" I gave links to pictures in the HS website in my original post but the links no longer work so I had to post some of the pictures directly. I wonder how little things like this are difficult for you to understand. Those were folks from the 2008 HS session, if you think they're not then let me know Bro

If the pictures you provided were from CE or the HS website then you are only giving your own interpretation of the pictures- nothing else. Hope you understand. If you say "look at this woman in red, she came there without a wheelchair. . .now she's sitting on one" It doesn't mean that's how it happened. The very woman may have come in that wheelchair yet you are reporting otherwise and misleading those who didn't go there. That's why I asked you for your own pictures and videos. Kapische?

Oh come on!, I was hoping you wouldn't say this, it was the same crap Pst Deola Okeowo said at the beginning of the HS session. But like I mentioned in my original post, there was no such thing. Some of the wheelchairs used in the HS where borrowed from other students. In 2008 for example, out of over 100 wheelchair cases in that session, only five made it to the healing line, out of that five, three were given wheelchairs taken from other students, only two came with their wheelchairs and they where not crippled but had conditions that required them to stay less on their feet so as not to put more pressure on their limbs; one of such conditions is arthritis. Even after they were prayed for and asked to stand out of the wheelchair to the amazement of the unsuspecting audience who obviously thought these folks couldn't walk, they quietly sat back in their wheelchairs as before after the audience had left.

You can already tell you are in the wrong if everyone's testimony has to be a lie for yours to be true yet more people have gone to the HS than you. Also, you said some of the wheelchairs used were borrowed and not all, so why should Pastor Deola's statement be crap? Then you said out of over 100 wheelchair cases only 5 made it to the Healing line so the remaining >95 were left hanging yet many people still go to the HS with wheelchairs 6 years after? Besides, you didn't say that the 5 people that were on the healing line with wheelchairs were not all crippled did you? So if someone gets healed of Arthritis they should keep standing all through after the healing to prove what? Don't you know walking or standing for long will feel anomalous to them given that they hadn't been doing so before?

In 2008 Higherlife Conference in PHC, a lady got healed in the crowd some long distance away from the podium where Pastor Chris stood. Her family members kept hoisting the wheelchair that once carried her in the air while they walked towards the testimony line. By the time she got to meet with Pastor Chris she looked very tired and he said so. He said they should have not let her walk that long distance as she wasn't used to doing so in a while, then he asked her to sit back on the wheelchair while he continued listening to other testimonies saying he would minister to her again (remember I said I was an usher in that meeting), towards the end of the meeting he stepped up to her and held the 2 arms of the chair moving his legs while he stared intently at her. After a while he asked her to get up and this time she did so more briskly and even started hopping and jumping faster. He made her run across the stage and she did it a lot better than she had earlier done. The Liberation stadium erupted!

So someone else may have attended that meeting and claimed that the woman "didn't come in a wheelchair" or "could walk before they put her in a wheelchair" or "she didn't walk any better when she came out to give her testimony" or even better. . . "she sat back after testifying with a pale look on her face, while family members didn't look like they saw any miracle".

Again my friend, this is what you were made to believe, all these folks were well able to stand and walk up till when they were prayed for. Those who are unable to stand and walk never I repeat NEVER make it to the healing line. Pst Chris ministers to only people he knows will get up when he says so because the healing line has been carefully selected. I explained the process in my initial write up

Like I said in my above response, it's all about perspective. Someone said "he took the rope and tied the goat" another person said "he took the goat and tied the rope" the question is "was the goat tied?" In the case that caused a rukus between Pastors Chris and TB Joshua and the whole of PFN there was a dutch man named Westerhorf that was on a wheelchair following a debilitating disease or an accident (can't recall). The man got up and walked in front of everyone. PFN saw it and didn't deny it- they claimed he used satanic powers. But you are saying he stage-managed it- even in TB Joshua's church? Haba.

Yes concerning Kenyan28, I'd rather not talk about her again as her matter has resorted to "your word against mine" "She said he said".
The truth is, a lot of what she posted initially were modified facts just to give credence to her healing story. God opened her eyes and she came out clean with me. You dont have to feel for her, she and her daughter is doing very fine now and her daughter I understand is now free of the virus.
Its very possible that her husband is HIV free as it is not automatic to contract the virus even if you have intimate intercourse with an infected person. percentage can sometimes be less than 1 in 1000 chance.

Absolute bogus hocus pocus. The modified facts could be what she said after due to anger and frustration. Did anybody call her to come on NL to testify? Did she ever claim anyone did? Did she not of her own volition say that she got healed by acting her faith in Jesus? Did she not unsolicitedly state that Pastor Chris didn't touch her? Did anyone ask her who sent her to the clinic? Did she not say she went there on her own and saw them use the same strips that she had tested positive to 13 times in Kenya yet she tested negative this time around? Did she not keep saying so even after a full year that she had lived symptom-free without ever taking medications?

On the issue of "her daughter is living virus-free now" I doubt it, and I would tell you why. Just recently, the medications that were administered to a baby that tested positive, failed 3 years down the line as the virus re-emerged and this case was in Kenya. I don't wish that for her though but I wonder if she will come back to insult medicine for failing if that were the case. As per her husband, make we leave matter. I am not sure the created their baby after 1 try. That he is HIV negative is a miracle in my view. Period.

You're trying too hard to evade several strong issues raised on the post and endlessly clinging to trivial issues. Oh I get it, you're trying unsuccessfully to put a hole in a small part of my story so you can discredit the entire account.
Sorry Bro, it aint working

No bro, on the contrary. You and I as well as every healthy person on NL don't count. The people that do are those who will get sick and try all the medical technologies available but will fail to see a result. They will look for other means and the one's who believe will go to the HS and get healed free of charge.

Talking about clinging to trivialities, isn't that what you need to do to convince yourself that anybody who says they went to the HS and got healed is lying while you who says "all healings were stage-managed" is saying the truth. If A says it is a big spoon but B, C, D and E all say it is a spade. Pray, tell me what are the odds of A's correctness? Mathematics says 20% and 20% by any standard is a fail.

SirJohn and Trustman, I will respond when I am chanced. I just wanted to clarify on WinsomeX and nnenneigbo.

@WinsomeX there was a just concluded Healing School session in Canada. Thousands again went there to be deceived many of which must have heard about SirJohn's thread in 2008. I wonder why they are still going there. And of course, there were many staged-miracles and lying wonders all free of charge. Praise the Lord.

I checked the link you and nnenneigbo provided for the write-up but it didn't work. Maybe you and her can provide a better one. Alternately, you can read the handle 'Feedthenation's post as it was more comprehensive. (I attended that service so I know). When you are done reading it please tell the forum where you and nnenneigbo got the concluding paragraph. The

"Chris Oyakhilome and his ex-wife Anita" my zonal Pastor...bla bla bla.

Do you see how you have reposted a lie because you want to believe what you want to believe? Nnenneigbo can help you out as she seems to be the source of that aspect and don't tell me it is trivial because I am trying to show you how easy it is to believe anything no matter how even non-commonsensical it is. For example, believing that someone would use millions of dollars to organise a show where he and a few people stage-manage miracles when they don't get anything in return for doing so.

Tos87: SirJohn(m): 9:16am On Jul 11, 2010
But I am of the opinion that we may
never be able to see some of the bible
time miracles in our day for very obvious
reasons :
there is a very large knowledge gap between
the old times and now, medical science has
greatly improved since then and so has
engineering, arts, politics etc. I believe
these are all workings of God.
@Mbaemeka...there is nothing wrong there. gosshhhh!!!...honestly you av got no iota of point anymore. Why don't you forget that this thread ever surfaced.

If you can't answer the concomitant question just log off. You are in the click of those who judge someone by just seeing them on TV and you are talking to me about an "Iota of a point". The people that go to the HS don't you think they tried all medical technologies available to them first before seeking other options because of its failure?

SirJohn: I posted a video of how W V Grant and Peter Poppoff was exposed by James Randi, these were men who supposedly worked miracles and displayed exceptional gifts of the spirit, yet they were exposed for who they are: scam artists. What is more disturbing is not that they were exposed but the level certain loyalists are ready to put their lives on the line for a belief they have been made to embrace. I suggest you watch that video again, it will explain more of what I mean. Delusion is the word
I challenged a lot of those phoney testimonies here on NL and even took Joagbaje on a challenge when he bragged about a woman he supposedly healed of blindness, it later didn't go down well as Joagbaje accused me of lying after the woman I interviewed on phone told me she was never blind. The whole of that exchange is still here on NL for reference purposes.

Delusion works either ways. I am either deluded or you are. I read your exchange with Joagbaje and I trust his account more as you have changed your stories on so many occasions. The lady in question didn't expect your call at first and then she denied everything to you including ever having any eye- defect. When Joagbaje told her who you were she told you she was healed of blindness but you came on NL and claimed she said it was only an eye-defect with her having "peppery" sensations. Joagbaje came back to say she vehemently called you a liar for claiming that. Much later, when Joagbaje offered you more phone numbers to verify other cases you said you were no longer interested in numbers again.

Don't you think it is delusive to stay where you are and claim every other person is lying when you could be even more guilty than they?

Those were not just pictures from the healing school website, they were people I saw and stayed with for two weeks who later ended up in borrowed wheelchairs only when pastor chris ministered to them, a fact you and all of christ embassy have not been able to explain.

Tell the world where you got the pictures from. I am itching to hear it. There are spare wheelchairs and stretchers in the HS many of which were left behind by people who got healed in previous sessions and decided to donate it. It is a known fact that some conditions get worse even while at the HS and as such some people were placed on those wheelchairs and stretchers to aid them before they could meet the MOG. Some other conditions had people who couldn't really walk well but the lines would have looked disorganized if someone was there to help them stand or back them. Putting them on the wheelchairs only makes it more "Packaged" or organized. Many CE members told you this but did you listen to them? No.

When eventually time revealed the truth, I was able to reach her on phone and that was when I asked her to tell me how she tested negative and she told me that she and a couple of other people were directed to a hospital by a healing school staff and they all tested negative there. she never bothered to test somewhere else afterwards. She is still alive today and I can call on her to come reveal more

Concerning Kenya28, I don't want to mention her too much because I feel for her but she got bitter and made a lot of contradictory statements which one can understand. If you would be honest with yourself you would know without a doubt that she got healed by faith and lived as so for more than a year (symptoms free). This is apart from testing negative. Coupled with that she got married and had a child. If her husband tested negative isn't that a miracle in itself or how did they create their child?

This is what she said much later when she was angry. Compare it to what she said much earlier (Please take note that she said Pastor Chris never ministered to her)

Kenyan28: 8:29am On Nov 01, 2012

I did my test at Randburg,SA which was -ve. Infact I remember very well the white ladies at the clinic didnt want to hear about pastor Chris or the healing school, they said it was a lie and I should go for a repeat test after 2 months which I never did (ooh how I wish I did).

I have a very big feeling that the kit that was used was faulty or expired. Like someone earlier said, someone can be symptom free even when they still have the virus, I have enough experience now of 11 good yrs.

Kenyan 28:

@sir John, i cant hold tears as I type this on fone.as i do,am inside the healing school south africa.am not a member of Christ Embasy.i traveled all the way from Kenya more than a wk ago.i sat with pple who had life threatening conditions BUT on Sunday they wa healed on graduation day.I say the lame walk,cancer die,HIV was not spared either! initially wen u talked of healin line i thot it was just a line of 20 pple or so only to witnes over 1000 pple get their miracles! I UNDERSTAND your BITTERNES IS COZ U & your FOLK DIDNT MAKE IT TO THE HEALING LINE SIMPLY COZ U HAD NO FAITH.THERE ARE INTERVIEWS CONDUCTED IN THE GROUPS ABOUT FAITH,THATS THE CRETERIA TO THE HEALING LINE.May God reveal Himself to you.Pastor Chris is a true servant of God.I WILL BE BACK WITH A TESTIMONY OF MY HEALING SHORTLY, stay tuned!

Kenyan 28:

Jesus is the same yesterday,today & forever, I forgot 2 say I took herbs for 4 months in 2005 & 2006 that boosted my immune & put on a lot of weight.I sm how thot I was healed yet the test was still POSITIVE, If u dont believe in Pr.Chris' miracles just know that in 2010 alone pple frm 90 countries all ova the world av kam 4 the healing skul.Dont u know for all those thousands of pple 2 kam 2 the healing skul is A MIRACLE BY ITSELF?! brethren am typin on fone but wen I get bak 2 Kenya on 13th,al tell u more and more

Kenyan 28:

Lord have mercy 2 your pple. my test was very very independed,no one told me 2 go 4 my test.NO 1 AT ALL.I didnt do the test at the healing school but in a clinic a VCT centre.the HIV test kits used in Kenya,the same that has 13 times showed 2 lines of HIV POSITIVE showed 1-one line of HIV NEGATIVE, However av neva been on medication rather managed with proper diet and a magnetic AMEGA bracelet with far-infrared on my hand which i bot 4 years.Again i lived in denial & swore neva 2 tek any ARVS coz I knew God wld heal me.My own dad knows my story!I went 2 a dif�rent doctor 2 get my results/medical report written down.Every 1 in Randburg around that clinic knew I was healed coz I CRIED TEARS of joy.for 3 hours I cried tears of joy.The devil LOST the battle when my trip 2 the healing school was succesful.God knows.Glory be 2 GOD for anointing Pr.Chris,am waiting 2 graduate on 11th 2 go bak 2 Kenya.REMEMBER PR.CHRIS HAS NOT TOUCHED ME YET AM HEALED.ITS ABOUT FAITH & APPLYING THE TRUE WORD OF GOD 2 MY BODY

So if you claim she made these posts out of excitement then I can say she made the other one's based on anger. Either way she testified that Pastor Chris didn't touch her and that albeit in the past drugs had made her gain weight and alleviate her symptoms for short-phases they never once tested negative. She even said that NO ONE told her to go there. So I wonder who is lying between you and her?

Sometimes I wonder how it is difficult for you to understand something so simple:
I was at the healing school between May 5th 2009 to June 3rd 2009. A period in which though I observed several things, I fought with the thoughts and like you, tried to make excuses for the things I saw. I left in November after my meeting with Pst Sola Olubode, I don't know if I mentioned anywhere that my Sis was a Pastor in the ministry, in fact, She was Pst Sola Olubode's PA and in charge of partnership in the branch. She eventually resigned and left the ministry too several days after I left.

I am sure you meant 2008. Now you say you left in November of 2008. Fine. Please explain this:

SirJohn(m): 8:53pm On Dec 04, 2008
Believers' Loveworld,
is a place where we share Gods Love
reaching out with peace and love
making plain Gods plan for all
Believers Loveworld building a happier world with love,

For five years until several months back, I would sing this anthem with joy.

Several months back from Dec 04 was when you stopped singing the song with Joy. That was when you suspected the scam. So any other thing you did from June till November was to prove your suspicions and not to find out any truth. That's why you are hysterical when others say they went there and got healed. You even refused to accept the testimony of Omopastor that said his daughter was healed for 8 years and is still healed till date 10 years after.

Bro, I have moved on, but very much aware of happenings around me not just in CE. I don't know how this thread and the other one made it to FP recently. Believe me, I would have cared less about it but on a second thought decided to comment. I still have loads of CE friends both within and outside Nigeria so its a no-brainer how I know certain things by default.

Good to know. I don't think CE Ojo misses you or your sister- Pastor Sola is still staging-miracles for free and for Jesus.

Topgainer: @ Gombs, Mba Emeka you are really determined to preserve this dishonorable business of yours perhaps your cunning has brought you much gain. In all your responses, it is very clear you have been busy evading the questions about the credibility of your organization.
Let me make it clear to you that your present schedule here is beyond your capacity to handle. Nowhere had Sir John denied the occurrence of miracles in life, he had only brought to the fore what many already know that the healing ministry of Pastor Chris Oyakhilome as well as the lifestyle he has impacted into most of his followers left much to be desired when compared to the Biblical truths , the things you guys do at Christ Embassy is so manipulative
But don't over stress your hackers, lawyers, thugs, image sellers simply for fear of losing members. If you study your bible well False Teachers Will Always Have Adherents to preside over, I can guarantee you'll have new members just as the ones who are beginning to see you guys for who you are, are EXITING

This discourse is above you. I don't know why you are losing sleep about a ministry that means nothing to you. Stop trolling, I have been on NL ever before this thread was started as a guest and I read all the encounters on the parent thread. Let me just shut you up once and for all. Besides, don't bother talking about scriptures with me, I can perceive you know nothing in that regard.

SirJohn(m): 9:16am On Jul 11, 2010
But I am of the opinion that we may never be able to see some of the bible time miracles in our day for very obvious reasons:
there is a very large knowledge gap between the old times and now, medical science has greatly improved since then and so has engineering, arts, politics etc. I believe these are all workings of God.

Compare what he said above with what Jesus promised (and Jesus never lied) but an unstable man would not know this.

John 14:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Is science, engineering greater than what Jesus did? Do Most of the people who pioneered the recent scientific discoveries qualify as "he who believes in me?" Go and sleep.

Losing members? What a joke. Jesus lost many members in a fell swoop. Paul lost members including Demas (one who had seen all the miracles wrought by Paul). John lost members etc. Losing divisive members is good. It shows growth.

trustman: Note what I said: at the time Jesus started his public ministry HE WAS FULLY prepared for it. Recall that at the age of 12 he already matched the religious leaders of the day with his knowledge and understanding of scripture. Luke 2: 42 – 47: “And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, but supposing him to be in the group they went a day’s journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.” Note what he was able to do at age 12 and imagine what he would have become at the start of his ministry.

William James Sidis could talk at 2 months and before he was 7 had taught himself 2 Languages. 9 he attained the best entrance score for Harvard but was turned down because of His age. Got a position in Rice University as a visiting professor aged 11 and was confounding Mathematics Professors in Harvard with 4th dimensional concepts same age and time. Hope you catch my drift- even he was an ordinary man like you.

Jesus could do no single miracle till he received the Holy Spirit at age 30. Until then any attributes of divinity like his prodigious wisdom at age 12 were purely coincidental.

The fact that he DID NOT POSSESS the sin nature meant amongst other things that his physical as well as mental and other capacities were untainted in any way.

The only reason for his not possessing the sin nature according to scripture was because he was going to be the sin-sacrifice and the sin-sacrifice capable of saving the world had to have sinless blood. That's why he was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

So I reiterate: Jesus was in a class of his own. Therefore HE DID NOT NEED TO GROW HIS FAITH in order to see that his miracles keep improving.

Jesus functioned 100 percent as a man. He did so to show that what he could do, other men could. That's why he berated his disciples on occasions when they couldn't do what he could. If Jesus was functioning as "God or a class of his own" then he would not have needed to pray. Who was he praying to or for what purpose? Does Jesus still pray now?


Mark 1:35King James Version (KJV)
35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.

Luke 5:16King James Version (KJV)
16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.

Luke 18:1King James Version (KJV)
18 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Who will God need to pray to?

Note also that before this incident here at Nazareth he had healed various diseases including demon possession. So there is no basis to claim that the quality of his miracle kept IMPROVING or that, like you claim, as a result “That’s suggestive of a growing faith”. That would be your own interpretation of the events.
If by ‘quality’ you mean the degree of excellence, then the issue would be to first rank miracles in order of difficulty and then begin to see if Jesus did the easiest ones earlier in his ministry and then progressively did the harder ones. I see no basis for this in scripture.

Thrash! Before the case of the demoniac in Chapter 5 that you made reference to look at Chapter 1 verse 21.

Mark 1:21King James Version (KJV)
21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.

at verse 23 he then commanded demons to leave then his fame spread as a result verse 28. Before chapters 2-5 could happen.

Answer one question for once. Between raising Lazarus from the dead or resurrecting himself which was greater?

John 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Explain this verse. Why would Jesus say something if it wasn't so?

John 14:2King James Version (KJV)
2 . . . if it were not so, I would have told you. . .


Do you people study at all?

Did Jesus’ non-performance of much miracle at Nazareth stem from his response to their lack of faith in him to perform miracles or rejection of him as the Messiah? I think the more obvious answer is the latter

What rubbish is this? Look at Mark's account

Mark 6:4-6New International Version (NIV)

4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 [color=#990000]He was amazed at their lack of faith.
Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village.

or Luke's

Luke 4:24New International Version (NIV)
24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown.

They rejected him in Nazareth as a Prophet. The majority of Israel (especially represented by their rulers) rejected him as the Messiah not just Nazareth and this happened much later. Even Capernum rejected him as the Messiah but they accepted him as a Prophet. His disciples didn't know he was the Messiah until later too when he revealed it to them after Peter's confession.

Stop making disingenuous claims.

Jesus’ miracles were not formally arranged. It did not take those healed days or weeks to be healed as a result of their needing to increase their faith to be healed. There is no record that anyone he healed came back to say he ‘lost’ his healing for any reason.

Mark 1
32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was

Don't speak when you don't know or have not properly researched. Jesus had started teaching here in Capernaum and had healed a few people in the synagogue so far, so his fame spread far and wide. Then that evening the WHOLE town gathered at his door and they brought ALL the sick and demon-possessed. This wasn't spontaneous.

Secondly, casting demons out doesn't require teachings per se. We cast out demons without much ado or ceremony. But when it comes to healing people the teachings of faith (concerning healings are necessary). There is another class of miracles called "creative miracles" and they are different too. If you walk in the power of God (as you should) you would know.

You say there is no record of anyone that Jesus healed losing their healing? Well there is no record that they all remained healed or didn't die. But we can tell from Jesus' teaching to the impotent man at Bethsaida that such was possible and he said why.

14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

If Jesus could tell someone that he just healed that something worse could happen to him if he kept sinning then it means the miracles weren't irreversible per se- and this is Jesus we are talking about. He would either be speaking from experience or from wisdom.

Pastor Chris has healed people impromptu before in the Airport and even in between services on a normal Wednesday or Sunday service.

[quote author=SirJohn][/quote]So let us assume that there is some verisimilitude to your claims. That you were a secretary to the HAVEN; a foundation school graduate and teacher per excellence, the greatest giver in the ministry, one who people could tell within 10 minutes that you were a disciple of Pastor Chris and a member of CEC- one who once walked in the power and slayed people at will. Let us assume it.

Let us also assume that you went to the Healing school with an invalid, that you saw how stage-managed the miracles were, how the Pastors and Partners were being hoodwinked by Pastor Chris and his camera men, and the deceptions and lies. Let us for a second consider the possibility that you are right.

It still doesn't explain why Pastor Chris has been able to deceive some of the biggest names who testify that they went there and got healed and are still alive today. It still doesn't explain the testimonies of many others who have come in contact with Pastor Chris and got healed. It does not checkmate the testimonies of those who graced your thread in 2008 to proffer alternate views to yours neither does it gainsay the testimony of my friend- the one who heard his case being called out on TV to almost mirror-like accuracy by the Man of God. It does not explain why people still throng the Healing school in South Africa as well as the one in Canada. That's one aspect.

I made references to miracles I experienced while in CE Ojo by the Resident Pastor. I even went as far as telling you that the recipient of one of the healings never went out to testify and he is still Asthma free as we speak. How do I explain such a "scam" using your thesis? How do I explain the scam of my interaction with a woman while I worked as an official during the Higher life Conference in PHC 2008 where the lady acted recalcitrant while she was trying to purchase a book for lower than the stipulated price. The same lady refused to sit where she was asked to and I watched her making phone calls virtually all through the happenings on the day but when the Man of God, Pastor Chris began to pray that same lady began to manifest by striking herself repeatedly on the floor and jerking uncontrollably. Then after the programme the lady came to apologize to me (I was the Usher on that Aisle) and if you had looked at her you could tell that something different had happened to her. How do you explain it to me?

Let me even concentrate on your story. As a follow-up team leader you never prayed for anyone and saw them get well, you never heard God minister to you, you didn't speak in tongues and none of the gifts of the spirit functioned in you and vice versa or what? Ok, so you saw the scam in 2 weeks but suffered on for another 2 weeks. Then you carried out your research in 6 months and came up with: All healings are fake (not just the one's in the Healing school), all Pastors you believed in are fake and we would never see miracles again in this day and age. So the one's that happened when you prayed for people they were what or you never saw results when you prayed?

So the pictures you got from the Healing school website to which you gave your own interpretations to are the hard-evidences you got or did you take your own cameras to provide us with your own? Did you investigate the people that got healed and you could prove that they were actors? Do you have the proofs so we too can subject them to our own investigations if they exist? If your story is true will you need to falsify instances and prevaricate the one's you didn't even see? For example, you claimed that "all the HIV positive people were sent to a particular Hospital in Randberg where they were sure to get a new Negative result" and you said Kenya28 provided you with such information. Yet her post's at the time clearly show that the Hospital she went to had Nurses (the one's that helped test her) that expressed their hatred for Pastor Chris, so why did you taint it and claim otherwise or are you saying that the nurses averring that they 'hate him' was also part of their act? You also said you made up your mind "several months back [before November]" and later, retrospectively said that you did your research in 6 months and then came up with your findings. So when was it: when did you really leave, as the answer to that can explain how you made your research?

I mean you no disrespect but you are sounding like an obsessed fan that was jilted by your celebrity crush. If you left CEC in 2008 because of the sham in the Healing school and you have told your story why not give it a rest? Why do you still monitor the ministry's activities even more than those that are still there close to 6 years after (If we assume you left November)? Why does the mention of Pastor Chris or CE cause you sleepless nights? If the ministry is as demonic or fake as you say why not go to the one you feel more ahome in or better still start your own? Why are you still looking for reasons to retract your claims if you are already cork-sure about them?

As per your "Hacked accounts and unsolicited CE correspondence" it's mind-boggling to know which untrained CE brethren will do that (If at all the story is true). It is unlike us. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like a man who went fishing and when he cast his net into the sea he caught all types of fish. As he brought them to the dock he began to pick the one's that weren't good and then he tossed them back into the sea. I know a brother a while back that told me he was leaving CEC because of all the immorality that he was seeing and that God told him to leave. 2 years followed and he got 2 different women pregnant even as he lost his job. He thought he left CE because of the immorality he was "seeing" but unbeknownst to him, God was purging him from the church for the very same fact- He was the immorality in the church.

You said no hard feelings? I say no feelings at all.

Cheers.

SirJohn: @mbaemeka,
I have been trying to PM you for a while now. You seem to know about CE ojo and I'd appreciate if you respond to my PM.
there are things I don't want to say on the forum as they may involve some names.
Kindly oblige my request.
Regards

I have been seeing the notifications each time I Log in. I would respectfully decline your request for two reasons.

1. I am led to.
2. I don't have access to email address that I used to register with this account.

If you notice any "perceived" ills in the church of Christ as a whole I beseech you to write your grievances to the constituted authority even as you supplement it with prayers of intercession as is the custom of a child of God. I for one, do not partake with workers of dissension nor do I entertain them in any form for I do not want to be part of any man's sin and therefore curses.

My humble submission. Hope you understand.

Cheers.

You were merely attending a CE church. You were not a member for if you were you would have known that CE is more than a church, it is a vision. If you go there and you don't catch the vision of the ministry you would feel lost and restive. It is only normal. You don't just wake up one morning and decide to go to a church, that's not how God leads people. It is like waking up one morning and telling yourself which of your neighbors houses you would go to have breakfast. That's spiritual vagrancy.

Let me just correct some of your falsities for the sake of posterity.

1. Anybody (even those not called of God) can mount the podium and teach on Adultery and fornication or indecent dressing. It will not change the fact that people will still do it. If you prevent them from entering the church, they will do it outside. So what have you achieved? So in CE, we don't complain about the darkness we just show you the light. That's a better approach and it has longer lasting implications.

2. If you believe that giving a first fruit to God denies you and your family the basic amenities you require, then CE wasn't the problem- your greed is. God gave his own firstfruit to you and it didn't deny him of any amenities, instead he gained more sons through him.

3. If the man gave his all what does that have to do with you or CE. Did they force him to give his all? If he didn't would they have ostracised him? What about the widows mite? What about the widow of Zarephath? Didn't they give their all? How is this a new act in the church? If you were ever in CE as long as you claim then what were you still doing there for 1...2...3...8 years for I am sure these type of givings were always done in all your stay? And the man deprived his wife because of this, the church told him that?

4. CE don't teach you how to give your fellow man? Are you sure you where in a CEC? Pastor Chris teaches that if you are in a house that has some unused rooms it is wrong for you to move to a bigger one. He teaches that we are to accommodate as many people as the house can take and only move to a new one when the capacity has been met. We raised more than $3M to help alleviate the challenges in Haiti during the earthquakes they suffered (no other church in Africa did as much). All our CEC around the world have innercity missions where we take homeless children and orphans. Feed them, clothe them, put them in schools etc. Their accommodation is even better than many other good institutions or orphanages etc. During RON we give cars and patrol vehicles to the police, we give ICT centres to prisons, we provide pipeborne water to rural communities etc.

I ask again are you sure that was a CEC?

5. Besides, all those arms of ministry that you claim belongs to Pastor Chris and Anita are lies. Neither of them gets a dime from the sales of any books and if you were a member for as long as you claim you ought to have known all these. Maybe you need to do some research and find out how expensive it is to host anything on the air via satellites or the Internet. When you do you would have the fear of God.

6. The award nights is for awards and not REWARDS. The awards are for recognition and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The rewards for all labour towards God's people or his work is given by God and Pastor Chris teaches that profusely.

7. As for that your story I don't even know where to begin from. All I can sense is your greed. You have mentioned "deprived" like 100 times and it is to your shame. There was a sound guy that lived in Agbara and worked in CE Ikeja. One day one of the resident pastors told them that Pastor Chris wanted to have a meeting with the workers so they all assembled and waited to no avail. Hours went by and much later the Pastor came and called off the meeting saying the MOG was very busy. So this sound guy headed home by bus. When he was almost there the a friend of his who happened to be a fellow worker called him to say that Pastor Chris was on his way for the meeting. The sound guy thought to continue with his journey home but he remembered a pledge he had made to himself in the past that no day will come when Pastor Chris was meeting with them and he won't be there to attend so he turned back and attended the meeting.

Pastor Chris didn't teach or stay for long. He just asked each person what their roles were but when he got to the sound guy who introduced himself as so the MOG paused for some seconds and kept muttering "the sound guy, the sound guy. . .thank you lord". Then he asked him to go out and pick one of the 2 Brandnew SUV Landcruiser models that was parked outside.

I wonder how long the sound guy would have saved to get such a car yet he got it by just simple obedience. The things of God require such.

8. Again with all your talk about being forced to give Mr greedy man. Nobody can force you to give or make a pledge. If you didn't want to why did you do so? You ran away from church because of pledges you made. Funny guy. You remind me of someone who said he was leaving church because of the "immoralities" he was noticing. But when he left and stopped going to church he got 2 girls pregnant and lost his job. He wasn't noticing any immoralities- he was the immorality and God removed him from our midst. Amen.

Besides, 2007 January 1 to 2013/2014 is never 8 years no matter how dishonestly you try to calculate it. So let your tales by moonlight have better symmetry. And again learn the importance of praying in your closet about the perceived ills in the church, instead of subjecting her to public scorn like the children of destruction are known for. If you were a serious member for even 3 years you would have known all these things.

Bro Gombs,

Thank you o. I shared the same things you just did on some other thread and it was like what I quoted wasn't from scripture. I am happy you are showing it to them. I have more respect for him than his friend as he sometimes discusses the scriptures. His Pal will see scriptures and runaway or isolate a miniscule aspect of your post and feign peity yet he will be starting threads and calling people's father's and husband's "Charlatans and evil".

Sometimes I wonder what they think they know if the knowledge of these scriptures is above them. It reminds me of when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus and had to ask him "Are you the leader of Israel yet you don't know all these things?".

We just have to pray like Paul that the eyes of their understanding will be enlightened so that they may know the hope of our calling and the riches of our inheritance in Christ even as he takes form in them and dwells in their heart by faith-as it is clear that it is not so as we speak. Amen.