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trustman: [size=16pt]Astheneia[/size]

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 2010 by Thomas Nelson Publishers:

feebleness (of body or mind); by impl. malady; mor. frailty - infirmity, weakness, disease, sickness.
The word means lit., "lacking strength, weakness, infirmity" and is translated (1) "infirmities" in Mt 8:17; it most used rendering; (2) "disease" in Acts 28:9; (3) "sickness" in Jn 11:4 and (4) "weakness" in 1 Cor 2:3, 15:43; 2 Cor 12:9 ......

Matthew 8:17King James Version (KJV)
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our _a infirmities, and bare our _b sicknesses.

Every infirmity is not a disease or sickness but all these are infirmities. So you can be allowed to call a sickness an infirmity but you are NEVER allowed to call all infirmities sicknesses or diseases.

The word astheneia is used for (a)infirmities here while the other word (b)sickness is exactly sickness and means only physical sickness. Paul always used the word astheneia for himself while he used astheneo in referring to Epaphroditus and Trophimus. We cannot then interchangeably give Paul a "sickness" when it suits our unbelief and then revert it to weakness when it doesn't. That's poorly dividing or translating the word of truth. Besides, in Paul's personal writings i.e Corinthians 1&2 and Galatians he used astheneia. So we must relate the Corinthians account to the Galatians and this is what we would come up with: beatings, stonings, floggings, hunger etc. Any weakness of mind or ability is still an infirmity. If I say "I wanted to pray but I was too tired because I worked all day" that's an example of me expressing an infirmity of the body- The body's weakness to pray because of [overwork] in this case.


Acts 28:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

9 So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

From vv8 Publius had "puretos" rightly translated "fever" and dusenteria (dysentry)hence the word "sick" there and Paul healed him. So other "Infirmed" people came to meet him and he healed them. The other Infirmed people could be a mixture of all sorts of infirmities (Sicknesses, diseases, weaknesses) but following vv8 which was a dis-ease if you please, the translators had to use disease. Remember it was Luke that wrote this and not Paul. Paul would have used "astheneo".


John 11:3-4King James Version (KJV)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

In John 11:4 Lazarus' sisters sent a message to Jesus that Lazarus was weakening or fast sinking. How do I know? because in vv.1 the word for sick as used there was "astheneo". Jesus in vv4 said the "astheneia" will not lead to death. Which can be translated to mean the fact that he is getting weaker doesn't mean he would die. That's why the disciples didn't fret initially and even said if he sleeps he will get well oblivious of the fact that Lazarus was already dead and Jesus knew.

Besides John's disciple(s) wrote the account and I have rightly translated it.

If you have more examples we can look at it.

Candour: Quit the lies. Its not in your character to help anybody save face. You simply are overwhelmed by the truth.

Does this make you know Paul was sick?

Galatians 4:13-14 KJV
Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. [14] And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Keep trying to lie for Paul like he commissioned you to

I wanted to ignore this, but the prospect of showing you how little you know was too tempting.

The word for "Infirmities of the flesh" as used here in Galatians 4, 2 Corinthians 11:30 and 2 Corinthians 12:10 is Astheneia. It means a weakness; want of strength; weakness of human nature. It was NEVER (I stress the NEVER) translated or referred to as a sickness or a disease in scripture. It was the same word used in Romans 8: 26. Tell us how you can fix sickness into that verse now let us see you try.


Romans 8:26King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities sicknesses : for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


We can tell so easily by reading the verses in Corinthians to know what Paul referred to as the things that caused the Infirmities of his body: reproaches, persecutions, distresses, trials etc. Paul is saying he was hungry, beaten, flogged, imprisoned and as such he was WEAK. In fact, vv12 of 2 Corinthians 12 talks about him still performing signs, wonders, mighty deeds etc while still WEAK. Abi don't you think he would have healed himself if he was sick?

And I know you will come back with "thorn in the flesh" by the messenger of satan. It is a figure of speech like "pain in the neck". Paul was saying Satan was responsible for all the persecutions, weaknesses, beatings etc. he faced and God told him that his strength will be made perfect by the persecutions. So Paul began to boast about it!

To help you since you would not study and will be employing underhand tactics to make me teach you, the word for sickness is Astheneo and was used 17 times in scripture to refer to it (few times to refer to physical break down due to overwork). This was the word used for Epaphroditus' case. Thank God Paul told us what caused in Philippians 3:30- for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death. Which simply means he overworked himself into getting sick and this was the same word used for Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20.

So Paul was not sick neither was he diseased. Trophimus and Epaphroditus were and we know why.

Please use another example to live in unbelief or save face and learn behind the scene so that you won't fall your hand on your thread.

I am really succumbing to your "truths". Trust me, I can do this to virtually everything you have said including telling us to suffer like Paul and the apostles but stay without the power for God didn't give us that one.

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Candour: See Paul's statement on his infirmity that 'God didn't cure'

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

It was causing Paul pains but he refused to focus on it, rather he decided to be more faithful while even glorying in his infirmities. That was the same attitude Dr Kent showed.




Does God want us to have infirmities like the one Paul had?




Oral Roberts had 2 major heart attacks that landed him in hospital. One was even a day after being prayed for on TBN (I think). It was so serious he lived with a pacemaker inserted to aid his heart. This is an open secret.

That he said he'll go 3 times in the months leading to his death at 91 tells us nothing. At that age, if he didn't say he'll go, what should we expect? That he'll keep coming for ever? All humans will go and if a 91 year old man isn't preparing and expecting to go, I wonder who should.

Also, on his financial life, do you know he raised $9m for an $8m hospital which he claimed if he doesn't build, God would call him home? Well it was a failed project eventually. Maybe he became bankrupt later that necessitated Benny Hinn's help, I can't say.




Very good attitude for a christian at the bolded. Bad things happen to even Christians but it shouldn't affect our faithfulness to God, shouldn't call for regrets and shouldn't make us that didn't get affected sneer at those who got affected as 'lacking faith' or 'walking in ignorance and darkness'.

"Those whose palm kernels are cracked for them by a benevolent spirit shouldn't forget to be humble" says an Igbo proverb. We can draw lessons from that.





If one of those you term "faithless" and "walking in ignorance" had experienced this, would you have been as understanding? Its only a vain and cruel man that would mock a human being for succumbing to sickness and that is what you and WOF have been doing to others since. You enjoy mocking those whom life has dealt harshly with.

Its the penchant of WOF for lying and living in denial that is the issue here and that is what is being mocked: the lies. If Elisha with all the miracles God did through him could fall sick so much that he died, then who are the modern wanabees feeling like gods? Do you think Elisha never saw psalm 82 throughout his life? Khulman died in 1976 from complications resulting from open heart surgery and it showed how frail and human she and the rest of us are.

Biofun Kunuyi died of cancer in 2010 but she isn't in the sane category with khulman because never for once did she or her husband preach godhood of believers or that a Christian cannot be sick.

Bad things happen to people including Christians and Kathryn khulman et al were no exceptions.

Like I said before alot of words and scriptures are being tossed around with little understanding. There are some basic things I would have thought you people that know more the Pastors that you libel would have known and if I start again you will meet me at some point and claim that's what you were referring to or agree with.

To help you save face again I would ask you to go and Learn the 3 different words that some translators referred to as infirmities, afflictions and sicknesses. They do not all mean the diseases. For example in the account of Paul you referred to in Corinthians, he was not referring to any ailment or a disease but you would not know because you have not studied it and when I show it to you, you will turn around and act like you always did.

As per all the mixtures of lies and misrepresentations about Oral Roberts, I leave you to believe what you want o jare. You will not travel to America to see the doctors report but if another person talks about going to Tanzania you would not ask him for doctors report instead you would call him a liar.

I am getting tired of the same old rehashed nonsense that pride would not let you admit to. Imagine seeing the 2 Corinthians 1:18-20 account by Paul concerning God's blessings and promises in Christ and then in turn asking if Paul didn't know about it when didn't "prosper" to you Or asking me about Timothy getting sick?

I believe I have put enough truth here that will help anyone that is still in doubt and would leave the ignorant and egomaniacal naysayers in the dark. You needed to see me laughing here watching all of you fumble scriptures and try to spin it like you were in the know all along.

I can count the amount of people that actually know scriptures in the letter and spirit on one hand (on NL) and none of them is in your camp. The quantity of ignorance here is frightening.

This is my last post on this thread. Let me do like bro Image123 and let you have the last word.

Cheers.

trustman: I pointed you to the fact that Jesus referred to the poor – Matt. 26:11
Paul in Romans referred to POOR SAINTS – Rom. 15:26
Galatians referred to the poor – Gal. 2:10
James also referred to the poor – James 2: 2-5
It would be unscriptural and demonic then to claim that there are or there should be NO POOR among Christians. That would contradict these portions of Scripture.
I asked you to state where in the Bible it says that poverty, disease and sickness are not from God. I await your answer.
I also await your response to the Deuteronomy 28: 21, 27, 28 , 1 Cor. 11:30, and other passages I listed. Do these show that believers can be sick? Whatever the cause?
I also asked - Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride?
When you attempt to see “suffering” as different from sickness and poverty it is unfortunate. Maybe again it is your (WoF) way of trying to read your meaning into words. But these two, for your information, are aspects of suffering. A sick person is suffering from some form of ailment or disease or whatever. Secondly how do you qualify or figure out when these are, to use your words, “unrelated to the gospel”?
So ONLY the disciples of Jesus were to suffer? The modern day Christian is immune from it. Any direct scriptural reference?
As at the time Joshua was in the picture here, the prophets had not yet written their books. What Candour was referring to was that “the book of the law” mentioned in Joshua 1;8 consisted only those written by Moses.
If meditate means 'roaring' or 'roar the words' how can you use that to explain the passage? You have again decided to pick and choose what you want? Context!!!!
Merely stating that “the prosperity ... is prosperity' is no answer. What is the meaning of prosperity? Is it to be able to successfully do a thing or is it to have material abundance? What is the exact meaning in the context in which it was used?
It is interesting how you interpret the scriptures. So when Jesus said God sends rain on the just and on the unjust that is taken by you to mean it is ONLY when such a person follows a ‘principle’ that God has established that he gets the ‘rain’. How did you come about this?
So you are more ‘advanced’ in spiritual things than the early Christians and can then differentiate yourself from them? Maybe you even know more than they did about the Christian way of life and that is why you are more ‘prosperous’ than them?
Death came as a consequence of SIN. Is death taken away now – i.e. today, or are we still expecting a future victory over death?
What Candour pointed to was the reference which you made. The fact that Jesus dwelt in a house does not equate to OWNING the house or houses he stayed in. So what is your point – that Jesus was so rich materially that he had a lot of real estate or what?
God’s word says none of these. Quote them clearly if you can.
So again where did Jesus ask us to set up healing schools?
The issue I pointed out here is that Christians were sick and God can afflict with sickness as a means of discipline. Maybe you will need to qualify your statement to mean something like ‘Good, perfect, sinless Christians don’t get sick …bla, bla, bla’
It is the height of absurdity to equate creation of a thread to the issue of discerning the body. This again is how you guys in WoF TWIST the scriptures to suit what you want it to mean for you. That portion of scripture clearly showed what it addressed – the Lord’s Supper.
See 2 Chronicles 16: 9 - "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him". What does the "eyes" of the Lord see here? Those who speak the word? Those who meditate by 'roaring'?
Proverbs 21:2 - "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart". What does the Lord 'weigh' here? The external and obvious or the inside?
Proverbs 23:6, 7 - "Do not eat the bread of a man who is stingy; do not desire his delicacies, for he is like one who is inwardly calculating. “Eat and drink!” he says to you, but his heart is not with you". Can the outward show be different from what is on the inside?
Isaiah 29:13 - "And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
cf Matthew 15:8 & Mark 10:6
God is clearly saying in all these that man can verbalize as much as he wants whereas the heart (the inside of him) is FAR from him.
So which is the great lie? What i stated or what you alleged? Even after you said "Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first ..."? If what is to be spoken MUST FIRST be believed then does that not mean that the inside is more important?

I mean you no offence man but this is a long pile of nonsense. You are taking me back to things I have already explained in detail. Please refer to my posts to Candour for reference and take all the corrections where necessary.

There's nothing you have said here that I have not responded to even the one's that I flat out off point. I don't think you people know the word as much as you think you do or probably you don't understand it as much. So I find it laughable that you have now taken the position as detectives in the house of God.

If I see anything worth responding to I will. Cheers.

Candour: Try and keep out the pettiness and silly patronage. If the chat is getting to you, then quit. You've shown you do not admit mistakes but I've refrained from using sly words on you. I advice you show some maturity.




My younger brother also 'houses' his friends in my house. It doesn't make him a house owner. He rents a house at his university. That still doesn't make him a house owner.

If you agree Jesus didn't own 'a big fancy mansion' like some pastors claim, then we have no reason to argue on this issue. Even the mad man he cured had a 'place' he abode.




If this is the line you're taking, then there probably was no homeless person in Israel as at this time and we shouldn't be having this argument. If every 25 year old had a place of his to stay, then what's so special about Jesus having a place to house 2 others who also had their own place?




You say it like you were there or scriptures recorded that anywhere. See the scripture again. Focus on the bolded

Luke 9:59-62 KJV
And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. [60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. [61] And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. [62] And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Its actually easier and better to believe they both went than to say otherwise if you consider that bolded portion. If the man still remained adamant, the scriptures would have recorded it. Whether he spoke it in public or not, he was simply letting the man know why it wasn't right to go back.

I love how we started from "Jesus had no roof over his head" to "Foxes have holes. . " to "My younger brother also 'houses' his friends in my house. It doesn't make him a house owner. He rents a house at his university. That still doesn't make him a house owner.

If you agree Jesus didn't own 'a big fancy mansion' like some pastors claim, then we have no reason to argue on this issue. Even the mad man he cured had a 'place' he abode.

If this is the line you're taking, then there probably was no homeless person in Israel as at this time and we shouldn't be having this argument. If every 25 year old had a place of his to stay, then what's so special about Jesus having a place to house 2 others who also had their own place?"

And I am charged with this:

You've shown you do not admit mistakes

Ha ha ha ha ha! There's nothing more to say.

Candour: @the bolded, Job didn't say that. Eliphaz did and it was part of the misrepresentations that made God get angry with him and his 2 friends. If you wish to know, Eliphaz started talking in Job 4:1 and continued till Job 5:27, before Job replied him in Job 6. Meanwhile, see God's conclusion about what Eliphaz and his 2 friends had been saying.

Job 42:7-8 KJV
And it was so , that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath . [8] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Their conclusion was that a righteous man never has calamities so Job was unrighteous hence his problems and this made God displeased with them.

If Job had expected a restoration of double, he would never had cursed the day he was born. He was in agony if spirit and body all through that episode but he never doubted God's faithfullness in the midst of it all. His implicit faith in God never wavered like his wife would have wished.

Yes you are right that Eliphaz and not Job made the statements in Job 5. And NO, a thousand times NO! Not everything Eliphaz said was wrong. Same way not all Job said was correct e.g cursing the day he was born etc. God corrected not just Eliphaz and the rest he also corrected Job. What Eliphaz said in (Job 5:19,22) for example, were correct. We know the things that he said that were wrong because God said so. Eliphaz believed that God was punishing Job for not doing enough good, and Bildad thought Job was just whining because he wanted His wealth back. On the other hand, by justifying himself, Job was condemning God as being unjust. Elihu on the other hand was correct. In chapter 34 he confirmed the Lord’s inability to do wrong or pervert justice.

Then in chapter 38 when God Himself joined the conversation, we see that Job is neither given a bill of indictment nor a verdict of innocence, but his understanding of God was certainly brought into question. We can see all that.

The question I asked again is how did Job show his "implicit faith" in God? How didn't he waver? Is it similar to Abraham in Romans 4:18-23? Scripture too said Abraham didn't waiver and if Job did same he must have been confessing God's words rightly and giving thanks like Abraham did.

Candour: @the bolded, you did. Your acquiescence was an afterthought. Once again, see what you said initially

Yes, God didn't commission me to suffer A.K.A be in poverty, be sick etc for the Gospel. God want's me to Prosper A.K.A be in health, peace, rich etc for the gospel. That's what I have always said, maybe my latter post just elucidated my position better to you.

That scripture never suggested such. Its a figment of the imagination of those promoting that idea. There was never a time Christ said John was exempted from death. His life is a testament to God's sovereignty. God simply decided to keep him, maybe to write Revelations. We might never be sure.

Also John's survival of the boiling cauldron is part of why that era was special. Philip teleporting. Paul rising up after being "stoned to death" etc. They indeed did spectacular things.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you

Jesus had earlier on told them all that they would be killed. Then after his resurrection while talking to Peter he gives Peter a more vivid description of the way he would actually be killed. When Peter asked about John's (because Peter knew that Jesus had a special bond with John), Jesus said what is that to you if I say he will remain till I come? John, in his typical thoughtful and humble style said - "Jesus didn't say I would not die, he only said what if I say John will be here till I return?".

I have made my deductions from the afore and my logic is in order.

As per that teaching about an "era" that's just plain rubbish. If you don't see people teleport, come back from the dead etc It's because people are not taught that these manifestations by the Spirit still happen. We have even seen some say that it ended with the apostles entirely while some say medical science has replaced it. The same Holy Spirit that was in Philip is in me, he can make me teleport if the need arises.

You're correct that God spoke there. However its actually wrong to say when he spoke there, he meant more than the books of the law Moses compiled which is also known as the Pentateuch. Most of the psalms were written by David and he didn't surface until almost 500 years after this statement so it should be very obvious that the laws Isreal meditated on and practiced to get good success all those 500 years had nothing to do with Psalms 1:1-3.

I never said what Israel meditated on had to do with Psalms 1:1-3. I said the Psalmist taught the same thing that Joshua was taught by God years ago. Joshua had the books of Moses to meditate on, and as more books were added to the Torah the Jews had more books to meditate on.

It should interest you that in the prosperity scriptures of deut 28, success was clearly predicated on conformance to all the laws Moses gave and the summary of these laws started from deut 4:44 and ends in deut 27:26 which reads as follows

Deuteronomy 27:26 KJV
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Deut 28:1-13 gives the blessings for conformance while deut 28:14-68 gave the curses and consequences of deviating from these laws and Isreal duly got both at different times.

These laws are not what Paul asked Timothy to meditate on and the profiting he mentioned had nothing to do with money.

Christ has redeemed us from receiving the blessings by conformance to the "laws". Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law. We can therefore take the blessings and run with it. That's what Paul taught Timothy and others.

2 Corinthians 1:18-20New International Version (NIV)

18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas[a] and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Paul taught Timothy that God's promises (ALL OF THEM) are not some "yes" and some "no". It has ALWAYS been Yes. No matter how many promises God says yes to them in "Christ". That's why we SPEAK AMEN (I claim it) to the glory of God.

That's why I say- I will never be broke in my life; I Dwell in health; I cannot be sick; I prosper in all I do etc. I am claiming the blessings and promises. I am saying AMEN to them.

Paul prospered in the gospel. He wasn't prosperous in financial terms. Prosperity isn't always about having material or financial goods.

If Agur is free to express himself, then John too was free to wish his friend prosper and be in health as in 3John 2. John wrote a letter to his friend and made a good wish for him. God didn't speak there and ask anyone to make it a doctrine.

Sure you are right about Paul. He gave all he had to the preaching of the gospel. LOL @ John. Not with what you have seen above ^^ concerning the promises besides, this is John the Divine; full of the Holy Spirit. If he wished it for anyone, it must have been word-based.

If they're rules for life and it works for even atheists, why make it look like it only works for Christians? So do you agree that a sinner who gives but mocks God, sits in the seat of the seat of the scornful etc will still prosper as long as he's obedient to these giving laws?

Does that mean Psalm 1:4-6 is suspended by these immutable laws?

If a Christian puts his fingers into fire it will burn him. If a Christian jumps up he will come down. If a sinner gives he will receive back. What happened to your definition of prosperity being not just about finances? How will the sinner gain access to the blessings of divine health? How will he gain access to the blessings of grace-unmerited favour?

That's why we said there are some principles a sinner can stumble unto by chance and they will benefit him. There are some he can only find by studying and meditating on the scriptures.

There's no basis for saying the Christians became poor for the gospel sake except you're saying they were prevented from making money because of persecution. At least this was the case of the Macedonian Christians

2 Corinthians 8:2 KJV
How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

Being poor for the gospel is what Barnabas did. He gave all he had into the gospel and lived like he had nothing. The Macedonians above abounded in the grace of generosity for the gospel despite the fact that they had little and experienced trials. They gave their widows mite. That's what it means to be poor for the gospels sake.

Physical death also came as a result of sin, has death been stopped? Pain and labour during pregnancy also came as a result of sin, have christian women stopped screaming of pain when dilating for child birth? How come hardened sinners who have not yet had their sin problem dealt with prospering and having "laws of giving" work for them?

First off, death is referred to as the enemy. Secondly, it might interest you again to know that not all christians will die (so just keep that in perspective when you speak about death). Thirdly, Jesus has the keys of Hell and Death now so (for us christians) he reserves the right to call us home and he doesn't do it without our consent (he is that kind).

As per labour in child birth, I can flood this thread with testimonies of Christian women that didn't experience such. It all boils down to how much of the word of God (and his promises) we have believed in and said "amen" to. That's why the accurate teaching of the word of God is required.

A christian can speak the word concerning his health and be in health but be stingy with his money and not prosper. The word of God doesn't work for you simply because you're christian. You have to personalize it- the just shall live by HIS OWN faith.

Acts 11:28-30 KJV
And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. [29] Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: [30] Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Bad things happen, and it happens to Christians too. Pls stop disparaging folks who have been dealt harshly by life. You mock their creator so doing. There is no where the bible said or insinuated that "they were dangerous to the gospel" and you have no right to say that

The Christians that were sending relief to Judea why didn't the famine affect them too? The famine was for the whole world. Challenges come to everyone, but how you respond to them matters. After all, the same "Credit crunch" that affected Bill Gates negatively made Warren Buffet the man with the most money in the world.

We can start small but we should not remain there- regardless of life's challenges. Jesus said we are in the world but not of the "masses". What affects the "masses" should not affect us. I remember when I was in the university and rumours will be flying around that only one student got an A in a particular course. I would always say "I know I am the one" even when I had other very intelligent Christians in my class. I virtually always ended up being the one. One day, someone said I was boasting and I showed him this:


Romans 3:27King James Version (KJV)
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

He started talking the same way too.

Someone who is talking faith cannot be boasting- in a nutshell.

Candour,

Dr Kent's statement and Paul's are not the same. If a christian lives he lives for Christ. If a Christian dies he dies to be with Christ. We agree.

Dr Kent said "help me be faithful in my illness" and I said God wants us faithful but not in illness for he wants us well.

Which brings me to the names you keep throwing at me namely: Kathryn khulman, Oral Roberts etc. Oral Roberts was 91 when he went to be with the Lord and I cannot remember him suffering any ailment. In fact, I saw him pray for Paul Crouch some months before he was announced to have passed (I mean Oral).

Secondly, in those months leading to when he left he on at least 3 different occasions said he would soon go. (I watched it myself on TBN) no hearsay. Let me use this opportunity to even speak a little about his life. Contrary to the lies about Mansions that satan-influenced fellows said he had he was being accomodated by Benny Hinn who also paid him a salary on monthly basis.

Oral Roberts also lost a son to suicide but it didn't deter his dedication to the things of God and I he is dearly beloved by me. No regrets whatsoever.

So when I hear about various ailments that caused their deaths I just laugh because Satan has his media and the church of christ has hers. I don't take Satans seriously. I am that biased for the things of God.

If Kathryn khulman died due to any sickness she doesn't sink in my estimation. She was still a woman of God used by him in a mighty way. Elisha who enjoyed more miracles than his Mentor Elijah died due to sickness. (I know you may want to make reference to him). Well scripture says, at times he got angry and the anointing didn't flow until he was ministered to by a musician. It's possible he didn't cause it to flow at the point of his death. Much later a man was going to be buried and due to fear his Paulbearers tossed his body into Elishas grave. The dead man's body revived on contact with Elishas dry bones. That's how anointed Elisha was. Same goes for Kathryn and Mrs Kumuyi.

They are with the Lord and I am here to live by my own faith and you too should.

Candour: ^^^
All John 1:37 onwards tell us is that Christ had a place to stay and no one has said that Christ slept in the open (though I won't put it beyond my Lord to do that sometimes). WOF claim Christ owned a big house where he housed guests like you insinuated here, and there's nothing in the whole of the bible that remotely suggests that. They say that to justify their ostentatiousness and addiction to materialism.
In fact your analysis of Israel's geography proved Christ had no need for his own house. If he spent that long in transit due to all the places he preached in (no chariots), why would he indulge in the waste of maintaining a house he didn't need most of the time? Christ borrowed boats, a donkey etc, whats so big about concluding he would also have graciously accepted lodging from his family or other kind hearted people?
Also the bible didn't say those 2 didn't follow Jesus. Thats your idea. The statement in vs 62 was directed to one of the men not all the disciples or multitude. See the scripture
Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Don't be incorrigible, learn to take corrections when you are wrong or to save face, you should ignore the issue entirely.

I never said here that he had a mansion and housed many people. I never even insinuated so. I said when Andrew and Phillip visited him he accomodated them which means it was spacious enough to do so.

Speaking of his place, Peter and Matthew too had theirs but had to leave it in order to follow him through his journeys. That's what Jesus did.

Christ had the house before he began his ministry. It was unusual for a Jewish man of the time (aged 25-30) to still be with his parents and Jesus was no different. All historical evidences prove that he began his ministry at Age 30 so between 25 till when he began his ministry he must have been working and living somewhere. When he started ministry work he left his job and his house (when he wasn't in Capernaum of course) Period.

And yes the 2 men didn't follow Jesus. They gave excuses that will only require one deduction, especially since Jesus made the vv 62 reference. And No, he wasn't only teaching the man even if he was directing the statement to him. He said it to the hearing of his disciples from whom Luke could have learned the story.

I will still respond to your other posts when I am with a better device.

Candour: So you could actually decode from John 1:37 onwards that Jesus OWNED a house?

You explanation comes from Luke's account of this episode so I'll take the verses that dealt with it

Luke 9:57-62 KJV
And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. [59] And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. [60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. [61] And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. [62] And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

See all the bolded portions. 3 men wanted to go with him but only 1 went back when he heard about "having no place to lay his head". In fact to prove your thesis wrong, it was the very man that indicated "readiness to go withersoever" with the Lord, indicating distance or location wasn't his problem. What he couldn't stand was not having a sure place to lay his head. People in those times trekked long distances so that wasnt the problem. The other two had excuses too which Christ dealt with.

You conclusion that "its because he had no place to lay his head in Samaria" is very wrong and misleading because the man was ready to go beyond Samaria, in fact he was ready to go "withersoever"







The remaining part of the quote is commendable





And you keep shying away from giving the answer to why organisers of healing schools like John G Lake, his wife, Kathryn khulman, Oral Roberts etc all battled sickness and died from it.

Were they walking in ignorance too? At least it would prove that "some God's generals" also walked in ignorance and in darkness.





I think Dr Kent in saying that was in perfect harmony with scriptures.

Romans 14:8-9 KJV
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

1 Thessalonians 5:10-11 KJV
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [11] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul was sick, Timothy was sick, Epaphroditus was sick, Trophimus was sick. These were all elders in the faith. Whom do you think prayed for them?





@the bolded, Job didn't say that. Eliphaz did and it was part of the misrepresentations that made God get angry with him and his 2 friends. If you wish to know, Eliphaz started talking in Job 4:1 and continued till Job 5:27, before Job replied him in Job 6. Meanwhile, see God's conclusion about what Eliphaz and his 2 friends had been saying.

Job 42:7-8 KJV
And it was so , that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath . [8] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Their conclusion was that a righteous man never has calamities so Job was unrighteous hence his problems and this made God displeased with them.

If Job had expected a restoration of double, he would never had cursed the day he was born. He was in agony if spirit and body all through that episode but he never doubted God's faithfullness in the midst of it all. His implicit faith in God never wavered like his wife would have wished.







Thank God for John D Rockefeller. He was a shrewed, smart and hardworking businessman and it showed in his achievements. Thank God he was a christian too.

There's a lot of words and scriptures being thrown around and not much learning is being done. You want to ignore that Jesus accomodated 2 people who came and saw where he dwelled and then run with a singular poorly studied verse to sweepingly claim someone who has obviously done more research than you on this issue is wrong.

Let us now refer to Matthews account and Lukes to see who is wrong between me and you (maybe this time you will finally concede).

Carefully studying a map of then Palestine you would notice that Cana from Capernaum is quite close yet it took Jesus and his 2 disciples about 2 days to get there yet they're regions within Galilee. That's how much the distance is. When you see the distance between Capernaum and Jerusalem in Judea you will understand how long that distance would have been. That's just the first aspect.

Matthews account (Chapter begins with Jesus at Capernaum where he spoke to the centurion and also visited Peter's house. Luke (who followed the trail of events better chronologically) corroborated the story in Chapter 4 of his book- all these were happening in Galilee.

Matthew then says that because of the healing of Peter's mother in law many other sick folks gathered around Jesus and because of the mass he commanded that they departed to the 'other side'. According to Matthew, that was when a scribe asked to follow Jesus and then Jesus replied "foxes have. . ."

Luke tells us a more detailed story. He says the multitudes caused Jesus to borrow Peter's boat and teach from the Lake of Gennesaret. Peter who had just witnessed the healing of his mother in law and now the teaching of this Jesus became in awe of him so he obeyed and let down his net even though he had toiled long before then and caught nothing. We know the rest of that story. . .

Now, this is what caused Peter, James and John to forsake all and begin following Jesus (time is passing). According to Luke this is when Jesus met the leper and cleansed him (yet Matthews account makes it look like Jesus did this before meeting the centurion).

Luke says the healing of this leper caused Jesus' popularity to increase so much that great multitudes (from Galilee, Judea etc) began to swarm around him so Jesus often withdrew himself to pray (time is still passing).

On a certain day they brought a paralytic to Jesus while taught people under a roofed house. Many historians believed this to be Jesus'. When the people couldn't find a way to get the man to Jesus they broke the roof (and Jesus didn't complain neither did the Pharisees who were present) so we know this couldn't have been the synagogue. It was after this that Jesus met Matthew (which explains why he mixed the stories up for he wasn't there when it occurred).

Now a lot of time has passed and Jesus is going about teaching and healing with his disciples. Now many many days had passed before Jesus met the centurion (according to Luke 7) and afterwards Jesus went through every city and village in Galilee teaching about the kingdom. It was while he was doing this that his mother and brothers came from Nazareth to see him (for he was not living with them). Still time is passing.

Then Jesus boards a boat to cross to Gadara which scripture shows is opposite Galilee (Luke this was where he met the mad man and healed him and also where the swine issue occurred. This act made him very popular in Gadara. Interestingly, when the man who was hitherto mad, asked to follow Jesus he didn't say "foxes have holes. . ." He said "return to your own house and testify what God has done for you".(vv39) Jesus could not say he had no where to lay his head because he was still close to Galilee where he and his disciples had their homes.

Now multitudes kept thronging him as his popularity grew and as he journeyed across villages and towns. It is on one of such journeys that he raised a dead girl- the daughter of a ruler in the synagogue and also when he now gave his disciples authority to heal the sick and preach about the kingdom. While giving them the instructions he asked them not to take any money or what not for the journey (they were to stay in places provided for them by the residents of the area that they preached). Still time is passing. (Luke 9)

On a certain day in Bethsaida (still in Galilee close to the sea of Galilee) while talking to his disciples multitudes came till the day was fast gone. The disciples adviced Jesus to send them away so they could get provisions for themselves and then lodge. (If Jesus is still within Galilee yet he didn't have access to such I wonder how it would get any easy when he is in a new region-Samaria). Jesus multiplied bread and fish and fed them. Time is still passing.

Then he met with Elijah and Moses and Peter, James and John saw it. They heard God's voice and felt more powerful than ever before and then the following day they came back down from the mountain where they met a man but they couldn't heal his son (they weren't as full of faith and power as they thought); then Jesus healed the man's son and rebuked his disciples.

Now all my long story was for vv51. When it was clear to Jesus that he had to go to Jerusalem to die (for his time had come and he knew it). He decided to take the Samarian route so he sent disciples ahead of him so they could prepare a place for him to stay while he journeyed. He did this because at this time he was already well-known in Samaria due to all the news they had heard of him from his encounters in Galilee. (Of course, while in Samaria he was going to teach and heal as was his custom).

But the Samaritans didn't receive him because they knew he was actually on his way to Jerusalem vv53. This was when the scribe (in Matthews account) came to ask that he followed Jesus WHEREVER he was GOING TO.

Jesus was going to Jerusalem to be killed; he had no personal house in Jerusalem; he had to rest in Samaria before getting to Jerusalem; he had no place to lay his head in Samaria; he didn't want to inconvenience the man). That's why he turned the man down. As for the other two men, it was clear they didn't want to follow Jesus (and they didn't). Jesus used the responses they gave to teach so vv62.

The scriptures are clear for all to interprete. Jesus wasn't homeless. Many just don't take their time to study properly.

I will respond to the others when I have the time. Bye.

trustman: Unfortunately you have really not. Lumping up many issues together ends up obscuring your responses. 
 Maybe when a lot of things are being considered at once it makes it difficult for you to deal with them well. Let's just take this your statement above. 
When God gave His word "Ask and you will receive ..." or "When you pray "Pray then like this: ... ... ... And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. " and we ask and we pray do the things we expect to happen just happen on their own? Or do we leave the place prayer with faith in God that as he has promised HE WILL DO IT? In other words do the things we get in life as Christians get to us by some way independent of God or by his direct involvement? Do the words act apart from God? Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride?

The same Jesus that said when you PRAY say this amd that is the same Jesus that said SPEAK to the MOUNTAIN and not SPEAK to GOD about the mountain.

What we see here is you lumping everything into PRAYER and wondering why you don't receive answers to all your prayers. When God didn't tell you to ONLY pray.

John 14:14 says if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Who is the 'I' that will do it? It can't be Jesus himself because because he already said "the Father who dwells in him does the works" vv10. And we know the father is always on his throne because Jesus said I go to my father vv12.

So we can deduce who Jesus is referring to as the Father in Him and that is the Holy Spirit because he responds to Jesus' name vv26. Which means Jesus wasn't teaching about prayer here because in Prayer we pray to the Father in Jesus' name John 16:23.

To leave us without any doubt that he was referring to prayer in Chapter 16 he explained himself better in vv26 saying that we don't even ask him to ask the father on our behalf.

NOW with this knowledge you can understand why Peter and John didn't pray to heal the man at the beautiful gate. They did what Jesus taught them in John 14. Much later when persecution broke out they then prayed to God to cause miraculous signs to happen through them Acts 4: 29-30.

trustman: Candour has done a good job at responding to you on this your post but let me add some more things.



[size=8pt]Lets look at the portion of Scripture you quoted to see who is likely to lead people into deception and who is exhibiting gross ignorance

[size=7pt][/size]

NOWHERE in Joshua 1:8 does it teach “that we are to keep speaking the word of God consistently”. Again you want to use this to justify WoF position on “speaking faith-filled words”, “name it and claim it” and the like.
This is what Joshua 1:8 says – “This book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. ”
You chose to emphasize the ‘mouth’ their but downplayed ‘meditate’ and what those two are supposed to bring about. The key issue is ‘TO DO’. The emphasis is knowing the book of the Law and then doing what it says so that it will bring about the desired result. Note too that as a leader Joshua had to ‘speak’ the content of the book of the Law to the people; not his own words or his own imagined rules. So, “shall not depart from your mouth” has much more wider application than you are trying to make it fit into.




Again NOTHING in Joshua 1:8 remotely suggests that it talks about “First, we speak the word. Next, the speaking causes … …” It is first “meditate” then do. You have to first take in the word of God before application – doing. It is first the internalizing of the word of God that will make Joshua be able to communicate (Speak) it to people.



Very clear from what? Certainly this is not derived from the Joshua 1:8 passage. Because the passage DOES NOT SAY SO.
Almost verbatim from the OT to the NT it is clear that it is God that does things for the believer (whether it is the OT believer or the NT believer) and not that it is the individual’s spoken words (apart from God) that accomplishes things in the life of the believer.




The teaching here expressed in clear words is again “meditates”. The believer here delights in the law of the LORD and meditates on it day and night. It would amount to twisting the scripture to equate “meditate” with “speaking of the word”.
So what do we believe – what the Word says which is “meditate” or what you are trying to make it say? Words have meaning. Words are meant to communicate. No believer is at liberty to make the words given by the Almighty mean something different from what He intended.



Who was Jesus referring to here in Matthew 26: 11 – the poor.
Who were the poor here in Romans 15:26 – the saints or unbelievers?
What do we find in Galatians 2:10? To remember the poor.
What can you glean from James 2: 2-5?
What can you make of James 5: 1-6?
What is unscriptural and demonic is to claim that there are or there should be NO POOR among the saints. That would contradict these portions of scripture.
You need to learn to think with the scripture not use some form of philosophy or ‘teachings’ to think out of the scripture.




Where specifically in the Word does it say that poverty, disease, and sicknesses are not from God?
What did Deuteronomy 28: 21, 27, 28 tell the Jews?
What did Paul tell the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 11:30? Is there mention of being sick there? And as a result of what? Chastening or discipline by who?
Apart from the Epaphroditus case of Phil. 2:27, Timothy had an ailment (1 Timothy 5:23) and Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus (2Timothy 4:20). So what should these tell us?



No one is saying ALL Christians should be poor, far from it. The issue is some Christians will be poor. So the focus in the Christian life is neither riches nor poverty but the spiritual life.
Even though you may not qualify Lazarus as a NT believer (and so not call him Christian) he was certainly a BELIEVER nonetheless. There were believers in the Christ (the Messiah – who came to be known as Jesus Christ) both in the OT as well as in the NT.
To have a place in Abraham’s bosom does not mean Lazarus was poor any longer using worldly standards. That the rich man still looked at him as “poor” (if indeed that is so) when he himself was in torments should be what is laughable, mbaemeka.




John 1: 37 – 39 (note the additional verses) never stated who owned where Jesus stayed. In addition, NO MAN can equate Jesus’ ministry to any other. Trying to use this to justify riches does not hold water.



It will amount to being an ignorant folk to think that giving all you can to the poor out of a WRONG MOTIVE will amount to anything with God.



You saw the Corinthian references on the sick.
What is outright lie and insult to the cross of Jesus is to make it seem that the most it accomplished was physical prosperity for the believer. The most important work of the cross was resolving the sin problem. Any other derived issue pales into a distant second.
Nothing in James said it was an ‘anomaly’ to be sick. Nothing.




Job’s adverse circumstances were PERMITTED by God. He never engaged in ‘speaking and acting his (God’s?) word” before he was delivered from his situation. When God determined that Job had passed the test, he intervened.
The Christian’s reward is NOT ONLY in heaven. He can have some here on earth. BUT the rewards come in far too many ways than to restrict them to ONLY PHYSICAL PROSPERITY, unless your definition of rewards is different from what the Scripture says.



The believer is ALWAYS to TRUST in the Lord, cast all his care upon him, etc. In any circumstances his focus must always be on God and not in himself and what he can speak into existence. Doing otherwise, resorting to any other system is to turn away from the source of TRUE SOLUTION.



In Hebrews 11 even those who in the eyes of the world (and some Christians) or in physical assessment appeared to have lost out were still commended. Why?
Physical evidence that a system or philosophy or whatever works, does not necessarily make it God-approved.

Faith is belief in God and His Word. Faith IS NOT a “great force”, a “universal principle” or the like. Faith starts first and foremost on the inside and God considers the heart to be of greater importance than spoken words.

Any bitterness, envy, jealousy and hatred toward anyone or a Christian brother or sister in particular who happens to differ doctrinally from one’s position is still SIN whether the other person is mistaken in his belief or wrong in his stance. The Christian MUST THEREFORE ensure that he continues to walk in LOVE no matter what the opposition is. Hope your calling others “ignoramus”, etc is not out of bitterness or hatred or any of the other sins you listed?

True promotion for the Christian is unknown to many. Real spiritual advancement is equally not so readily visible. Therefore a Christian’s spiritual progress is not something that can be gauged using physical or material yardstick.

I have answered your questions in my post to Candour. God gave you his word and told you to use his word to prosper and you are telling him you will wait for him instead? That's pride.

As per 1 Corinthians 11:30 please study these verses you post very well before referring me to them. Do you think I don't know all these verses before posting? Ok let us examine what Paul said there:

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Paul was writing to a carnal church in Corinth and was explaining to them why they have many sick members in their midst. Why should he be explaining the reason to them if it was normal and expected that christians could fall sick and die anyhow like mere men?

He was explaining it to them because it was an anomaly to have such and he told them why (some of you on here are guilty if this). He said because Christians were eating the physical body of Jesus but insulting the main body which is the Church. When you create threads on men and women of God and call them names you are not discerning the lord's body. You are eating of the communion unworthily and not that you are unworthy. So I am using this medium to warn you again- refrain from this evil!

That is why vv30 says many of THEM (Corinthians) were sick and many died.

As per "God considers the heart more important than the words spoken" there could be no greater lie than that. Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first but (you will not experience the reality of it) until you speak it forth. Paul said with the heart man believes unto righteousness but you see he would never experience the SALVATION until he uses his mouth (Romans 10:9-10). That's what Paul taught us and Jesus had made references to it earlier when he said- If you believe in your heart (without doubting) and say with your mouth to the mountain- Move! it will.

Learn to Hagah the word of God!!!

Candour: Pls stop calling people ignoramuses when you clearly display ignorance yourself. John 1:37 NEVER said Jesus owned a house. Otherwise we might be tempted to call Christ a liar for saying the below

Matthew 8:20 KJV
And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Don't call Jesus a liar, call those who sold you the lie that Jesus was homeless liars. Jesus had a house and he lived in Capernum.

John 1:37-39King James Version (KJV)
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour

Jesus was able to house Phillip and Andrews in the place where he dwelled.

Galilee was a big city in then Palestine, same with Judea, Samaria, Decapolis etc. Galilee housed towns such as Chorazin, Magdala, Cana, Capernum, Nazareth, Nain etc. Same way Judea encompassed towns such as Hebron, Bethlehem, Bethany, Jerusalem etc. Jesus for example was born in Bethlehem but was taken to Egypt and then brought back to Nazareth (because the new Herod wanted him dead as well in Judea). He was brought up in Nazareth with his folks but when he grew up he moved to Capernum.

I said all that to say this, when studying the map (as can be Googled) it is clear that if anyone is making a journey from Galilee to Judea they would have to pass Samaria or take a circuitous route to bypass it (which is longer). The Jews of Jesus' day had issues with the Samaritans and many of them took the latter option but in Jesus' case he decided to use the Samaritan route.

The distance was quite long and he needed a place to rest before continuing the Journey but the Samaritans refused him a place to stay seeing that he was a Jew and was heading to Jerusalem in Judea. That's why James offered that they called down fire from heaven to kill them to which Jesus rebuked him. It was while passing the villages in Samaria that a man asked to follow Jesus where he was going to and then Jesus replied- "foxes have holes, birds have nest but the son of man has no where to lay his head". The son of man had no where to lay his head in Samaria.

I am not the Ignorant one.

The issue is how can you truly help somebody [s]when you actually despise and look down on him[/s]?

- You can help by teaching them that God doesn't want them poor and has made provision through his word for them to prosper.
- You can help them by giving them aides like start-up money, education, provisions, a job etc

Of course many Christians fall sick. Its not a doctrine, its simple fact. Otherwise you'll not even be promoting a "healing school". What we say is that Christians can fall sick even like any other person unlike people who claim "i cannot be sick". When Christians pray for healing like James admonished, it should be with the belief that the sovereign God will answer. God never promised that any christian wont be sick but even in sickness, God still remains faithful and we should be too

The healing school is not for ONLY christians. It is a means to convince Naysayers, scoffers, atheists that God's power is real and active till date. What words may not be able to do, the tangible power and demonstration of it many times does. And no, Christians should not fall sick like ANY other person for they are members of Christ's body; his flesh and his bones!! That is why I (for example, cannot be sick). Jesus took upon himself all my sicknesses and diseases and died with it on the cross. Then he woke up to a newness of life (that is not subject to sicknesses or diseases) and told me I too could walk in the same newness of life by his spirit.

James was aware of this that is why he asked- "is there ANY sick among you?" and not "since there are many sick among you". He used the conditional phrase "is there" because it had to be an aberration. The major reason many of God's children still suffer sicknesses is IGNORANCE and nothing more. "they know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in Ignorance" because God through Jesus, has already taken away ALL our infirmities.

The Ebola afflicted doctor said as much

"As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness,” he said.“And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.“I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers." - Dr Kent Brantly

The doctor spoke according to the knowledge that he had. A man said to Jesus- "if you are willing, you can make me whole" Jesus replied "I am willing". Then later he said he only does the works that he saw his father do which means God is in the business of healing his children. When Dr. Kent comes to this knowledge he would see that saying "help me be faithful, even in my illness" was redundant, for God wanted him well.

What will happen to the "elders" in the book of James when they get sick? Who will pray for them?

@the first bolded- true. @the second bolded- false. Job was trying to prove his righteousness to his friends and God. in fact God wasn't pleased with the idea of Job proving his righteousness and faithfulness. See what God told him

Job 40:8 KJV
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

See Job's response to God's challenge

Job 42:3, 6 KJV
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. [6] Wherefore I abhor myself , and repent in dust and ashes.

Job was restored simply because of God's goodness and mercies which he even shows to unrepentant atheists today though they vehemently deny him.

There's no extra exegesis to this. Satan approached God because of Job; God let Satan afflict Job with death, disease and poverty; God told Satan that Job would not budge; Job held onto his belief in God; God restored Jobs blessings two-fold. Period.

The question is how did Job maintain his faith in God? Job knew that God will deliver him from 6 troubles and even 7 and no evil will touch him and Job said it (Job 5:19), he knew he would laugh at destruction and famine and be unafraid of evil and he said it vv.22. Job was doing what Hebrews 10:23 taught us to do- hold on to the confessions of our faith without wavering because God who made the promise is faithful. He was displaying faith and PATIENCE and therefore he obtained the promises of God. (Hebrews 6:12) There is nothing random about how God acts. That's why he gave us his word to go by while the world grope in darkness.

Everybody uses 'faith' today that its almost difficult to decipher who talks of bible faith. The Chinese by 'faith' and belief built their country from the ruins Mao Zedong met to the superpower they are now. So too UAE.

With 'faith' and some genius, Mark Zuckerberg, a young Jewish atheist built Facebook and became a billionaire in less than 10 years from practically nothing. He simply believed he could do it.

The new age practitioners preach 'faith' which enables them do seemingly miraculous things and experience wonderful achievements.

What the bible calls faith indeed isn't the same as these and its imperative we study to really know and understand it.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of unseen realities.

John D. Rockefeller, a Baptist Christian, believed this, gave tithes and was found always saying that his prayer was to give 100,000 USD to Charity and to live till he was 100 years old. Before he died he gave over 100 Million dollars to charitable works and he slept just before his 98th birthday. He was atleast 30 times richer than Zuckerberg. His life is a testimony.

I hope this post answers Trustman's too.

Candour: While i think we've said all there is to say on this issue, its important to note that both divides are guilty of this idea. In fact you said something along this line that is the below

It is on record here and (repeatedly too) that I never refuted the aspect of suffering for the gospel. I am against teachings of sicknesses and poverty (that is unrelated to the gospel) as what that suffering refers to and I am not going to refrain from it as it is very scriptural.

We all including you and all mog must know this. For instance, how do you explain all the disciples dying violent deaths except John?

Jesus promised them so and some scripture suggests that he may have absolved John from it (John 21:19-23). Bible History let's us know that John was placed in boiling cauldron for hours but he was unhurt and as a result was given the appellation- Saint John "the Divine" and was banished to the Island of Patmos from where he wrote the book of Revelations.

Joshua didn't say "word of God". He said "book of the law"

Joshua 1:8 KJV
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

This scripture speaks exclusively to the Jews because it talks about obeying the laws of Moses diligently otherwise there would he punishments. It was a works based admonition. Does any Christian observe and obey the laws of Moses carefully and diligently today?

It might interest you to know that God and not Joshua said that. Also your interpretation of the "book of the law" to refer to the law(s) of Moses is also grossly flawed. The law ALWAYS referred to ALL the books of Moses and wasn't limited to it. As more books from the prophets were given they too were added into the Law. In fact, when the apostles began teaching the gospel of Jesus they did so using the Law which was actually the Pentateuch, Prophets and the Psalms or writings.


John 10:34King James Version (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jesus referred to the book of Psalms as the law.

That aside, the Law of Moses comprised of 5 Books which included Deuteronomy (and Chapter 28) which was God's promise to them concerning the blessings in general and in this case prosperity. It was not a works-based admonition because those blessings still apply to the church.

Again (and by so doing Trustman can get my responses to his post) there is no separation or demarcation between the Mouth and Meditate as was used in Joshua 1:8. The Hebrew for the word meditate is Hagah and it means: silent whispering; muttering; talking; roaring. It refers to using the mouth to whisper, mutter, talk and roar the words. This is what we refer to as speaking the word. The same admonition was referred to in Jeremiah with the same word "Hagah" and in Psalms 1:1-3. If you even checked the marginal of a regular KJV they would place an alphabet aside the word meditate and refer to it as a form of talking while cross-referencing you to the book of Joshua 1:8

Also the Verse like I said before was Crystal clear- meditate on the word day and night so that you may observe to do all that is written. You will make your way prosperous and you will have good success. The observing to do was connected to the meditating and this was averred by Jehovah. PLEASE believe him.

Paul taught Timothy about the same things and the Greek for the word Meditate can be understudied too.


1 Timothy 4:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

Here, Paul says if you meditate on the word and give yourself wholly to it the evidence will be clear to all.

If you had done a good study you would have known all this.

What is the prosperity the psalmist was talking about there? Is it the same thing like what the world (and the modern church) call prosperity today?

What do you make of this scripture below?

Proverbs 30:7-9 KJV
Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: [8] Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: [9] Lest I be full, and deny thee , and say, Who is the Lord ? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain .

Do you think the writer was speaking faithless words?

The prosperity the Psalmist referred to is Prosperity, Period.

As per the words of Agur he is free to express himself as such. Abraham and Isaac were more prosperous and their prosperity didn't make them deny God or inveigle his name. We should learn to divide the word of truth properly so as not to be found as poor workmen.

Also, What does Christ mean by this?

Matthew 5:45 KJV
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Does God discrimate in the sending of his blessings to the earth and the peoples on it? Methinks this explains why even hardened atheists enjoy the prosperity and riches which the 'church' is chasing madly after today.

There are principles that God has established on earth- laws, if you please. If anyone (Saint or sinner) is found observing them they will receive the results of such actions. One of them is giving. If a sinner has a habit of giving he will always have and if a christian is selfish he will always lack. That's what Jesus meant.

Some Atheists help more people than many selfish Christians who do not give. It is no surprise that some of them prosper. It is a principle same with Studying for exams. If an unbeliever studies he will excel and if a christian doesn't he won't. That's why Christians are admonished to meditate on the word. As we do so we begin to "do" all that is written e.g Give, study etc.

You call people ignoramuses but you make some ignorant contradictions in your own post. Contrast the statement in black with the one in blue. How do they agree? How did the early Christians 'live as though they were poor'? The scripture even records that those in Macedonia who gave, also had deep poverty.

2 Corinthians 8:2 KJV
How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

What is wealth? How do you measure it?

What is poverty? How do you measure it?

How do you classify the early Christians?

Mr A doesn't have money to pay his rent yet he is a tongue-talking Christian. Of course, he will not give anything to the work of the ministry because he is poor and has nothing to give. Mr B has money to pay his rent in Ikoyi but decides to live in Obalende so he can have something tangible to give towards God's work. Mr B should be commended and Mr A should meditate on the word and prosper so he can be like Mr B. That's the 'contradiction' I was trying to make and that's what I meant by "I too suffer lack from time to time because of a need or the other in God's house". That's what the early Christians did.

We were asked to flee from sin, not poverty, diseases and death because no human being needs to be told to flee from poverty, diseases and death. Its inbuilt in us all. All humans are wired to hate them. Christians, Muslims and atheists all hate these three phenomena. Sin isn't in the same class because the natural man loves to sin. Sin is 'pleasurable'. Infact the sons of Adam are wired to enjoy sin.

Pls don't equate them to each other or put them in the same class for that is misleading.

How could it possibly be? Sicknesses, poverty and death came as a result of the entrance of sin. If Sin as a nature is taken away then the consequences should have been too. Now if people who have their sins taken away still find themselves sinning "occasionally" does it mean the sin wasn't taken away to begin with? Whose duty is it to stay away from sin? Do you think it is possible to stay away from the acts of sin without the concomitant consequences?

@the bolded is all the truth we need to know. A Christian could indeed be poor and no where in the bible is it remotely suggested that such is "dangerous to the gospel". That is at best a vain statement and at worst a horribly deceptive lie. If we agree with the quote, honesty demands we refer to the early Christians whom you said decided to be poor for the gospel as "dangerous to the gospel they worked tirelessly to propagate".

I believe I have explained what the early church did. They were "poor for the gospel's sake" and not "poor for the sake of life's vicissitudes". The latter represents the dangerous group. A poor man cannot help himself and will become a burden to others; a poor man's wisdom will be despised; the rich will always rule over the poor; the gospel will not move swiftly without the prosperity of the proponents; Jesus' death made us rich etc.

Why do you think Satanic songs do better than Word-based songs? Sinners will always use their prosperity to propagate what they believe in, and the church is admonished to do same.

I am eschewing the urge to make a very long post. Let me end here and continue on a separate post.

DrummaBoy: At the risk of being misunderstood by you, I will still like to shed some light on the errors of your thinking.

There is no such thing as "subject to the principles of this world" in all the bible. Such a thing a New Age doctrine; it has no foundation in the word of God. This New Age or eastern doctrine teaches that believers should not be subject to the caprices of life or principles of this world. Rather we should use God's power within us to make life subject to us. It teaches that we, not God, should determine our own destiny. We cannot allow things to just hit us down; rather we should bring our world under our control by our confession and by our beliefs. I repeat that this doctrine is demonic and from the very depths of hell.

Before I proceed, let me offer a balance.

Christians can suffer persecution for their faith in Christ. Christians can also suffer illness and poverty because they dwell in a fallen body and are subject to the economy of this world. In spite of this reality, God is merciful to the Christian because God is first of all our Father. I am a father; and in spite of my weakness, I know my good plans for my kids. How much more God and Jesus testifies to this: that God will grant our requests. So what happens in case of sickness and poverty? The truth is that the number one anti dote to poverty is not faith or confession. Its plain hard work. If Mr Christian spent his youth in school, grabbed a good degree and trusted God to order his steps, he would not suffer in life. He would not be poor. God would ensure he is well taken care of. Simple. Just like any other non Christian.

If Mr Christian does not abuse his body, does exercises, eats well and trust God, he would not be sick.

However, in spite of Mr Christian's hard work and good eating, Mr Christian can still hit life's visiccitude. What should he do then? Mr Christian must trust God. Please notice that the unbeliever can do all that the Christian can do, except to trust God. That's what distinguishes them. If Mr Christian then hits challenges concerning his health and wealth, what does he do? HE SHOULD TRUST GOD!!!

So that the New Testament has made abundant provision for the poor Christian. A Christian who was not irresponsible but suddenly hits financial challenge must have his wants supplied by the brethren in church (2cor 8: 13-14). Our abundance must supply his want. When he is OK, he could then give to others who lack too. There is nothing wrong with a poor Christian but there is everything wrong with a stingy church. This is the recommendation of the NT!

What happens to an ill Christian? James 5, we call the elders of the church who should pray for him. The prayer of faith will save the sick.

God is sovereign and it pleases him to deal with us all, in this path of sanctification, in the way he chooses. Through any trial he deems fit. The minute we begin to choose what we want as challenges or suffering - saying we want persecution and not health or financial challenge - we cease to make him Lord over us; rather we become a clay that dictates to the Porter. That is the tragedy of this New Age doctrine called Word of Faith!

And, yes, the Christian suffering can include persecution for the faith but it is not limited to that. The NT has abundant evidence that Christians can be poor. Lazarus was poor and Jesus spoke well about him. Jesus referred to himself as poor, having no roof over himself or a place to lay his head. Jesus identified with the poor in Matthew 25. James advised we should not despise the poor. Peter and Paul differed in ministry but agreed to take care of poor Christians in Galatians 2. Many Christians were ill, including Timothy and Epaphroditus. Job was poor and ill. In their bid to credit their gospel, WOF despises the poor and shames the sick. WOF hates Job with a passion but in spite of their hatred, Job remains a leading prophet of scripture God said he spoke well of Him.

The subtle distinction between the Christian faith and the Word of Faith is that the former submits to God; while the latter dictates to God. The former consider God as Lord; the latter makes God an errand boy and transforms man to god. The former is the truth of the gospel; the latter is New Age and it is down right demonic.

mbaemeka stop the deception!!!

The greatest challenge we are faced with is the presence of ignorant folks that have arrogated the right to pick and choose what they think is demonic and what is not. For some of these ignorant folks if it matches their experiences it is truth (regardless of it is word-based or not) and if it doesn't match their experiences (even if it is very word-based) it is demonic.

We are only faced with one mission and that is to show them as much of the word of God as possible and pray that the Holy Spirit; the master teacher, will help convey these truths to them and if not, that the other folks whose faiths might be shaky would not be swayed by their deception and gross ignorance.

Joshua 1:8 was very instructive. It teaches that we are to keep speaking the word of God consistently- every day and night so that we would observe to do all that is written therein. It says that by so doing 'we' and not 'God' will make our way prosperous and then have good success.

Merely looking at the trail of events shows where the cart is and where the horse should be. First, we Speak the words. Next, the speaking causes us to observe what is written (e.g being diligent, working hard, praying etc). And then by so doing we make our way prosperous and we experience good success.

It is very clear that the speaking of the word precedes the hardwork as against the "speaking the word, confessions or faith doesn't make one successful. . .plain hardwork does" as these ignoramuses would have us believe. Also interesting is the fact that these notion isn't singular all through scripture and was repeated ad nauseam almost verbatim from the OT to the NT. It therefore beggars belief that some would call it a new age teaching and even go even further to call it demonic.

In Psalms 1:1-3, The very same teaching is expressed in clear words- the speaking of the word yields the observance which in turn yields the prosperity. The Psalmist even makes a stack comparison between the believer and the unbeliever in this instance and even brazenly declares that the unbeliever will not act so and thereby not experience it (vv.4). So we are forced to ask ourselves who to believe: the word or the ignoramuses- and of course, your guess is as good as mine.

On the notion of wealth, these ignoramuses claim "there is nothing wrong with a poor christian; the only thing that is wrong is a stingy church". While I agree with the latter aspect of the sentence, I beg to differ with the first and that is because it is not scriptural. A poor christian is as much as dangerous as a sinful one and the reason is simple- they act as though Christ died for nothing. Of course, it is possible for one to live as though poor because of the gospel. That is commendable and similar to the decisions of bulk of the early Christians. But it is a lie for anyone to claim that God makes anyone poor as a way to test them. That is very unscriptural and demonic.

God has given us his word to go by. He has told us what to expect and what to reject out-rightly. We know that poverty, diseases and sicknesses are not from God same way we know sin is not from him. The same way we are taught to flee from sin is the same way we are to flee from the consequences of sin of which poverty, diseases and death are 3 of the chief consequences.

Without a doubt the NT does mention that a christian could be poor but not that the Christian SHOULD be- it is a matter of choice. Lazarus (who wasn't a Christian at the time Jesus spoke of him) was poor and remained poor in the eyes of the rich man even while at Abraham's bossom. The rich man that died and went to hell asked Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his hand into water and let him get a taste of it. It is actually laughable how the rich man didn't ask Abraham to do so himself, instead he asked him to tell Lazarus- the same poor man Lazarus that he knew while on earth .

Speaking of Jesus, he was not poor as some of these ignoramuses assert neither did he refer himself as so. He had a house (John 1:37), and was responsible for feeding so many people during his stay on earth. He paid his taxes as and when due and he had a viable means of livelihood and so did his other disciples.

Certainly, he identified with the poor and encouraged that they should be helped even as his disciples continued to teach so. I am aware of a lot of charitable works that many of today's churches are involved in to help the poor. Some of these works make the state appear incompetent and we are admonished as christians to support instead of defame them as some ignorant folks have done to their own peril.

Another worrisome idea being peddled amongst these ignorant folks is the "many Christians were sick" doctrine. That is an outright lie and an insult to the cross of Jesus. Indeed, the notion of sicknesses was expected to be an anomaly that James had to ask the brethren if any sick person was still amongst them. Then he recommended the use of the prayer of faith by the elders. The isolated instances of Timothy and Epaphroditus only shows us the importance of proper hygiene even as we live by faith, for we are not ignorant of the devices of the devil.

Speaking of Job, his life's testimony is ample proof that God can use any seemingly unfortunate situation to bring forth his goodness as long as we stay true to our faith in him- by speaking and acting his word. Job's patience and faith exemplifies exactly what Paul taught in Hebrews 6:12 and that is exactly what we endeavor to teach others as against the "your reward is ONLY in heaven gospel" that some try to sell.

From the foregoing we can tell that even though life or the devil can throw different challenges at us all regardless of our faiths. We are responsible for the way we choose to react to the challenges. While some pretend that they leave everything in God's sovereign hands; we can tell how feigned such acts are as we see this same lot talk about how plain hard work overrides the meditation of God's word. For others, they have known to rightfully divide the word and thereby knowing which situations require praying, using the name of Jesus, speaking the word or letting them go with the consciousness that they are already more than conquerors through it all. And in each situation this group always gives the glory and thanks to God through Jesus- the author and finisher of faith.

In conclusion, the obvious distinction between these Christians who act their faiths and the ignoramuses is that the former have believed and meditated so much on the word of God that the results are already evident in their lives-they prosper, dwell in health, heal the sick, feed the poor and show forth the fruits of the spirit- love, joy, peace etc. While the latter, rationalize the word so much that they have no faith and therefore do not act on the word. They in its stead, house bitterness, envy, jealousy and hatred for the former just like Joseph's brothers did him. They are required for the formers promotion and advancement (albeit oblivious to them).

shdemidemi: We are saying the same thing here, I think. Though we go through afflictions (a proof that we won't have it all smooth even as Christians), we are sure(because we trust and believe the word) that we are more than conquerors.

Now, it all boils down to how much we can see our present condition in the light of the hope we have in God. I believe 'amid all these things' can come in any form- impoverished, bedridden, incarcerated, rejected, poor.

Our afflictions and sufferings are relational, the apostles suffered great afflictions at their time, I might not suffer that same affliction today; mine might come in the form of been labelled, maligned, isolated ......whichever way it comes I put my mind at rest with the hope that a glory will be revealed at the advent of Christ.

Peter said-
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Paul told the Corinth church in 2 Corinthians 1:7

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

This shows the suffering was not just designed for Paul or Peter or Timothy but for every soldier in Christ.




I don't think the chapter mentions anything about exempting Christians from sufferings today.

The keywords are 'partakers of the sufferings of christ' or 'afflictions for the GOSPEL'. The afflictions/persecutions/tribulations/impoverishment/incarceration/labelling etc. Should be for the GOSPEL'S sake and nothing else.

If we are partaking of christs sufferings then we ought to suffer what Christ suffered and nothing more and it has to be for the reason he suffered- which is because of his convictions.

Did Christ suffer sickness? Did Christ suffer 'poverty' by virtue of his birth or because of the gospel? Was Christ subject to the principles of the world?

Then we cannot teach people to accept such things except they are in tandem with the gospel or the preaching of it. Epaphroditus didn't take care of himself well and took ill BECAUSE of the work of the ministry. Paul told us that much and that's a worthy example.

trustman: Hope in Romans 8 refers to a future prospect; the anticipation of something NOT YET present. I believe that is the point Shidemidemi is presenting here. When that hope is fulfilled - when that future event becomes a reality - it will no longer be a hope.
If we are hoping - having absolute confidence - for a better future it means the present is not as good as that future. In other words what we can have NOW cannot be like what we will have in the future. For now there is still the 'present sufferings'(v.18), 'bondage of corruption'(v.21), 'eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body'(v.23)
For now there will still be 'tribulation ', 'distress', 'persecution', 'famine', 'unclothedness', 'peril', or 'sword'(v.35). These will still be a present reality. But nothing can separate us from the love of Christ in all these because the believer who rightly applies the Word of God can face them with 'hope' and other divine provisions.

I agree with the notion of a future: one to look forward to. And I agree that Paul addressed it there too. I only said that wasn't all he alluded to there. For example, the very verse 11 isn't futuristic and we know this because he said the Holy Spirit will vitalize our MORTAL bodies.

I believe the underlying point is that no matter what we enjoy from the fortaste of the glory now it will never be compared to the one that will be revealed. That's why I have been imploring us all not to focus so much on the future one thereby missing out on the present. It is with this Eido (awareness) that the apostles still went on to heal as many sick people as they encountered instead of just reminding them to suffer the disease now so they would enjoy the glory in heaven.

shdemidemi: Romans 8 speaks a lot about the 'HOPE' of what is to come, if we are truly immune from tribulations as Christians today, why would we have to hope?
Pls check the 2 Timothy I quoted earlier.

Afflictions because of the gospel which is persecution for the gospel in otherwords. We know about that and generally agree on that. Paul spoke about it too in Romans 8:37 as I referred you to. He said "In (amid all these things) tribulations. . .and persecution. . .we are more than conquerors.

BTW the book of Romans 8 wasn't only about the hopes we have. He spoke about the past, present and future. The past being Christ's death; the present being what it achieved for us now I.e the Holy Spirit's presence and his effect vv11, vv26; and our future being the Immortal body we would have at his appearing.

We can't lump everything into the future when Jesus didn't.

shdemidemi: of course you are in the world, i guess you wanted to say you are not of the world.

You ain't immune to world challenges bro, like Paul told Timothy, he told you this too -
2 Tim 1
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

I was taught in English language to always consider the 'but' when two simple sentences are combined. Let us re-read Jesus' words:

In me you will have peace BUT in the world you will have tribulation.

It is clear that he is comparing the "In him" to the "in the world" and this can only bring us to one conclusion and the latter part of the verse proves it. He said "BUT be of good cheer, I have already overcome the world" and we can cross-reference it with what Paul said in Romans 8:37: In all these things we ARE (not going to be) more than conquerors.

We already are!

shdemidemi: As far as the Word of God is concerned, even Paul isnt good. Paul himself never called himself good.

I think the problem we also have in today's church is the idea that when a man becomes born again, he suddenly change. No, If i was an emotional person before becoming a christian, i will remain emotional even as a christian. What christians do is pretend, hide and keep up a front. Get on the wrong side of christians, you will realise the man still have his demons lurking.

Every man is a sum total of the combination of the gene he gathers from his parent linked down to Adam and sinful nature. Our self consciousness, mentality, volition, emotions and our conscience were all picked up from the genes of our parents. All these things don't change just because we become christians. After we become christians we need to understand doctrine to feed our soul with the right food else we will be making decisions from the realm of the mind linked to sin nature and the world.

Paul was a complete sinner as far as he was concerned, he understood it took Jesus to help him even at that state.

When one becomes born again his Spirit is new but his mind (soul) and body have to be renewed. The mind by the word and the body when Jesus appears, I agree.

But while we wait even while we grow old because of the corruption God promised we could remain healed because of what Jesus' death wrought for us. The Holy Spirit within assures of the promises while we wait for the Immortal body.

As far as our bible is concerned the Spirit is the real man while the body is the house. The new man is not wretched.

Got to go. Cheers.

Candour: Jesus is the only begotten son. We are adopted children. One of my inlaws has an adopted child, no matter how they love-vendor him, he CAN NEVER share the same DNA wirh my inlaw. He can share priviledges but NEVER their makeup and there are some priviledges strictly associated with this makeup. So it is with us and the Godhead.
There's a reason why we pray in Jesus name. If I'm equal with him, why should I pray in his name? If I can do what God can do, why do I need him?
But then you and I can agree to disagree

Jesus was the only begotten later described as the first begotten over many brethren. There's such a thing as timing in God's way and of course, the times have changed.

Before his death he described his disciples as servants later friends just before his death and then brothers as soon as he ressurected. We are brothers with him now.

Also when scripture calls us adopted the Greek for it was Huios. The adoption isn't like the case you referred to in your post. This adoption is the same with what Kings of old did when they had many sons and were undecided about who was to replace them as king.

Solomon was Davids Huios for example. Solomon was prepared by David to replace him so everything that Solomon needed to know or learn to carry out his duty amicably, David let him know. That's the same way we have been adopted by God through his word- the same Word that impregnated Mary with Jesus.

I am not GOD and I am not Jesus neither am I a member of the Godhead. But I am in christ who is God and I am a member of his body; flesh and bones.

Since Christ is ahead of all principalities and powers and rulers of 'this' world then I am ahead of them too because I am IN him.

I do not perform miracles in my name (indeed I can't) but I use the power of attorney (the authority he gave me) to use his name while I am on earth to enforce his promises concerning me against what 'the god of this world' would have desired.

I don't command God to do anything for me but I know better than to expect God to come to my aide of his own sovereignty all the time. Sometimes he expects me to use the authority he gave me to fix my challenges.

I also believe in suffering for the gospel but maybe not as some of you would have us believe. Indeed, I too suffer lack from time because of one need or the other in God's house. I also know about persecution and to some degree natural challenges like the war-torn zones in Iraq and Borno but make no mistake, I know God can more than make me super comfortable even while living there.

These are some of the things that shape my convictions and I make no apologies for it.

Like you said we can agree to disagree.

Cheers.

shdemidemi: Is Paul good?

Only the word if God can say.

What does the word say?

Candour: I won't tire to show you.

Is it the invisible 'you' you're referring to or your physical body?

Was Paul in Christ or not when he suffered as enumerated below?

2 Corinthians 11:23-27 KJV
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. [24] Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. [25] Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; [26] In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; [27] In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and unclothedness.

Do you not think he felt pains, pangs and terror in his body as a result? What do you make of that?




You're trying to turn a new leaf by talking gently, pls leave insults out so we can relate properly. I sabi play that game I trust you know?

Christ peace actually gives patience in tribulation. I wrote a piece on it sometime ago. If it won't be too much, you can go through it. I trust it answers your queries

https://www.nairaland.com/1334944/peace-mark-true-christian

Everything is all muddled up again. I know about persecution for the sake of the gospel and I must not be scourged, beaten, flogged etc before saying I have been persecuted.

What I don't understand is how you can see the many verses in which God tells the apostles about the violent beatings and 'sufferings' they will undergo for his name (individually) yet when I arrogate the same powers that he gave them to waltz through life to myself you call me a thief?

Oh so God gave them power to perform all kinds of miracles and also suffer for his name but he gave me the suffering aspect and reserved future powers for heaven?

Candour: You're the one who needs to calm down. Even if you don't agree with what I say, stop taking it personal.

Simple comprehension of bible passages should have helped you realise that the god mentioned in psalms 82 wasn't referring to you neither was Jesus referring to you in John 10:34 too. Intellectual my foot

Congratulations on your membership of MENSA but I wish you'll stop falling the standard of that elite group. You're not representing them well.

I don't take anything you say personal. I know you don't agree with some of BabaGnoni's nonsense or shdemidemi's that's why I don't call you all a general name. As much as possible I try to discuss based on each persons personal beliefs. But you don't afford me the same courtesy.

My Psalms 82 exegesis is as clear as crystal. GOD said "Ye are gods and all of you are CHILDREN of the most high". Jesus said if "God called his children gods simplybecause they received his words why AM I not more God than they if he gave birth to me and the scriptures cannot be broken?"

Theres nothing to add or remove from there.

shdemidemi: @ mbaemeka



I think this verse is as clear as daylight, how could you miss it?

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The man never said 'o wretched man that I was', or did he? He was actually speaking of his present state as a man who carries a new life in Christ but yet in a sinful body of death.

Dear, I gave a detailed, virtually verse by verse explanation of the chapter. You can re-read it again. In any case let's assume you are right and he was referring to the present. Then Paul is Under the law; Slave to sin; sold to sin; Dead; carnal; evil etc. Because he also said I AM carnal too in the preceding verses.


No, a thousand times No he wasn't referring to the present. He was referring to himself when he was under the law; He was describing the state as wretched.

Candour: No matter how many times you scream "I admire kumuyi....", its clear that you're simply exercising your mouth and utilising your right to free speech. You're free to believe it and anyone else is free to believe you, I don't or would you deny me my right to disbelieve you?

The same who said this

John 17:22 KJV
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

Also said this

John 16:33 KJV
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

There's balance in scripture if you choose to find it but of course, Paul was asked to suffer and pass through tribulation. You were only signed up for the rosy part.

Keep god-ding away

Simple comprehension again. In CHRIST I would have peace but In the WORLD I would have tribulation.

Am I In Christ OR am I in the WORLD?

While answering refer to your post to Nlmediator where you said we can have peace without Christ. (Which is right btw) but we know Christ has the way he gives his own peace different from the world's. But if you are simple-minded this will pass you bye and you would muddle everything up (as is second-nature to you).

Candour: Its obvious your own IQ is too minute and insignificant to register on any scale. That wasn't where it started. Try checking your first statement on Barnabas.

I also hope you're keeping a catalogue of the 'ad hominems' you generously dished out on this thread? So that when you, who and what you represent are repaid in full measure, pressed down etc you'll not start complaining?




Bring up the post where I said that so we can thrash it. I've dealt with more intelligent and complex people. I don't enter a discussion I'm I'll prepared for. If you have nothing to say, keep quiet. That's what sensible adults do.




Lazy bones. No wonder you're desperately searching for money everywhere. Why won't comprehension be difficult for you?

Calm down man, Jesus loves you. The intellectual beatings you are suffering will produce in you a far greater reward in eternity Okay?

Simple comprehension should have helped you in separating ideas and not in conflating all of them into one like you usually do.

I am a member of MENSA if you know what that means.

shdemidemi: @mbaemeka

I think the misconception we have as a church today is mixing our biological life with our soul life.
Genesis 2
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


A man is made up of the combination of these two, meaning a man is not complete without a soul life neither is he complete without a biological life. Our biological life is linked directly to the world, it responds to medicine, hence science keeps unraveling whatever is connected to our biological life. On the other hand our soul life is linked to God, it responds to true doctrine and nothing else.

Therefore, when a christian fall ill, it makes biblical sense to go by the way of medicine (medicine isn't from the devil). Therefore any preacher whose teachings is rooted and directed to the biological life is most likely a false teacher.

Man IS a spirit, who has a soul and who lives in a body. When a man becomes born again he receives a new Spirit from God. This new Spirit was created by the presence of God's spirit intermingling with the old one and thereby supplanting it. Paul said he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit. That's the first aspect.

The second aspect is that the new Spirit is recreated in righteousness and TRUE holiness because it hails from God. That spirit now has to be fed Spiritual food which happens to be the word of God. It is by such spiritual food that one's spirit grows thereby.

The evidence of growth is in our show of dominion over the principles of the world and the powers that effect such principles. For example, a principle of the world says if we have cancer we should die. Well a higher principle (from God's word) says if God's spirit lives in us it can destroy cancer and restrain it from ravaging our mortal bodies. That's the principle God expects his kids to follow.

Of course, Medicine isn't evil and I am not against it. But what becomes of a man who is faced with a situation where Medicine cannot be of help (e.g AIDS not HIV o) ? Do we concede and die simply because we would receive another immortal body later or do we resist the devil and his works so that he will flee? That's the gospel I believe in.

I know about the glory God showed Moses in the 'past'. I know about the one he will show through us in 'eternity' but I am also making do with the one in the 'present'- the one he has already revealed. That's the difference between me and some others.

Candour: You're getting desperate and its showing. See my post which you quoted



How does that relate to the 'plenty words full of fury, bile, lies while signifying nothing' you posted up there?

Its a weak, confused and lost man that introduces red herrings into discussions to deflect from the matter at hand.

If you can, try and keep up with the trail of discussion.

I know your IQ is barely above 99. Go and read one of the last 3 posts you directed at me and see where you asked me if "someone could lose their salvation because of sin". Then understand my response to you.

While at it don't run away from the lies you told about Paul addressing himself as a "wretched man". That post is still on this thread.

It's difficult responding to you in detail because when you are boxed-in you raise more issues that may require one to belabor already established truths.

Candour: You'll never be caught dead in a deeper life tent listening to kumuyi, so why the desperation to leverage on him now? Your beliefs are totally opposite to that of DLBC so why latch unto them for support? Its obvious you know deep down that your heroes lack integrity so you look for one that still has a good standing to hide under.

Kumuyi doesn't preach that Christians are gods and that sets you on mad rants. He doesn't encourage greed and that angers you because your wild obsession with money by rushing "everywhere the money is...." has robbed you of peace, your soul and left you on edge as you're still expecting to find it. He preaches against greedy 'pastors' like yours and that shows you guys as the crooks you are. Any honest person who observes kumuyi will know your heroes are very far from the bible.

Kumuyi also preaches honesty and that is why he never hid the fact that his wife was sick neither did he deny the cause of her death when she died during an easter retreat. If it were to be you guys, you'll lie that she sat in her chair and 'decided' to die.

I'm glad i attended LFC as it gave me an insider view of happenings there. I was also an attendee at some CEC programmes and infact handled some financial transactions of your church and pastor omorogieva and his wife Pauline. It also enabled me to see you guys for what you really are: greedy money grabbing lot. Also, if it will interest you, I attended a C & S programme back in June. Oya go ahead and use that one too to slander me.

Below is one of my earliest posts on NL. Character and principles never change even if locations do. My perception of Kumuyi and DLBC is always reinforced whenever I see folks like you.



https://www.nairaland.com/1189741/tithes-offerings/7#14334767

I hold kumuyi in high esteem and don't pretend about him like you're doing now.

People like kumuyi and DLBC are the reason I know you and your heroes are simply greedy people who are after getting as much money as they can. If all christian groups treat and handle money the same way they do, there will be less criminality in Christianity.






Paul and other apostles obviously didn't read the same memo neither did you hear the same spirit. Once again, see what Paul did when vain and confused souls like you called him a god

Acts 14:14-15 KJV
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of , they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, [15] And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

In fact the thought of them being called gods was so abhorrent that the bible records that 'they cried out'

The whole world is in wickedness according to the bible but we are of God.

1 John 5:19 KJV
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know the god who is always in charge of the dark and wicked realm

2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The world is under the control of the devil but thankfully, God has marked us as his own and made a down payment with his spirit (Eph 1:13-14). We are not of the world but our body which is only a tabernacle for the real us is earthly and subject to the corruption in the world.

2 Corinthians 5:1-6 KJV
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: [3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. [4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. [5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. [6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

I can't wait to have that body so I groan to have it just like Paul in the scripture above. Until the ressurection which is at the second coming of Christ, then you're simply inside corruptible mass of flesh

1 Corinthians 15:53-54 KJV
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

As long as you'll suffer death if Christ tarries, then your body will and can be afflicted with corruption.

Keep 'manifesting' your counterfeit 'godhood' in that obscure corner of NL where you're.

All these words yet you could not make an iota of a point. I am glad that some of your 'likers' are seeing beyond this wanton display of gross ignorance concerning simply comprehension of either English or the bible.

It is on record here that I said "even if I do not agree with all Kumuyi's teachings I still esteem him very highly as a MOG because of his work".

That statement makes all your gibberish null and void. I don't agree with all Oyedepo's teachings, TB Joshua's, Bill Winston's etc. . . even Kenneth E Hagin's (of blessed memory) but I esteem all of them very highly in love. That's why I laugh when you say things like WOFers etc. I know it's as a result of sheer ignorance on your part.

BTW another scripture to cause the demons to manifest again:

The glory God gave Jesus on earth I already have (John 17:22).

"GREATER is he that is IN me than he that is the world"

DrummaBoy: You didn't get the comparison with 50'; did you? In other words there is little difference BTW a hard core rapper and a WOF devotee.



You are wrong. You can try again.



Wrong in one; right on another.

The purpose for my blog is not for GAIN. We are not like some who peddle God's word for PROFIT.

And yes I use a modest phone. It actually can
do everything the most sophisticated phone can do; except that I should be blamed for not being patient enough to do them.

I have my testimony already: its not about a big car, large house, expensive phones, etc. Its a living faith in Jesus Christ.



[b]
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,

4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions

5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it.

8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.

9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness - 1 Timothy 6 (NIV)[/b]

You tried to mock some other poster for his arithmetic a while back yet simple arithmetic is above you too.

Read again:

12 years ago 50Cents made a name for himself with the album you made reference to. It put you at between 28-34 years of age when you were still listening to him.

Which means you are definitely in your 40s now at least. . .oldie!

- Do you give tithes? Pastor Kumuyi teaches on tithes
- Do you speak evil about dignitaries? Pastor Kumuyi teaches against it
- Do you tell lies as a habit? Pastor Kumuyi teaches against it
- Do you believe in the efficacy of the spoken word of God? Pastor Kumuyi believes in the efficacy of the spoken word
- Don't you believe the name of Jesus can be used by false prophets? Pastor Kumuyi teaches against it
- Don't you bear false witness? etc...

Yet you would have us believe that you believe him in totality whilst the rest of us use him as a smokescreen meanwhile you rebelled, left this tutelage, ran to Oyedepo because you were looking for financial prosperity, ( you didn't prosper obviously) and then you continued your vagrant travails until you found yourself in whatever church you are in ATM (that is greatly unfortunate to have you) because you would soon rebel and run elsewhere like the mad man of Gadara finding no resting place.

Candour: You called yourself the god of this world. See what the god of this world does to humanity

2 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Stop your satanic claims of godhood.

I find it extremely risible that someone who would gleefully call satan "god of this world" will in the next breath accuse someone else of making "satanic claims of godhood". The only person who made a satanic claim of godhood is you.

I saw the word of God spoken about me and I consented and accepted it in my life and you are offended? Why? It is annoying the demons who counsel you? They preferred their master to be god over you and your ilk?

Well, there is another breed of Christians who know better than that. These ones are part-takers of the Divine nature; Kings and priests unto God. That is why he is called King of kings, Lord of lords and our High Priest (because obviously we are the priests).

Another scripture to cause the demons speaking through you to shake in awe (if you cast out demons you would know how they talk. Bold Christians annoy them):


Ephesians 1:19-23King James Version (KJV)

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, ^{not only in this world}, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

God's exceeding mighty power is directed towards US who BELIEVE. It is the same power that raised Jesus from the dead and has set him above ALL principalities, power, might, dominion and EVERY name that is named NOT only IN THIS WORLD but in the one which is to come and has put all things under his feet and made him the head over all things to benefit the church- his body. And I am a member of his body; flesh and bones. And I am already seated with him now (Ephesians 2:6)

How can I meditate on this long enough and still feel I am subject to disease and what not when I am already seated far above it all?

Well, they know not, neither will they understand it. . .they walk on in darkness.