₦airaland Forum

africaken:
those peace keeping missions is whats making your blood boil

what will be different with combat missions?

sharper teeth and a healthy tail?

africaken:
for a peace time army like south africa army may be,but not countries like kenya and nigeria dealing with insurgents

The SA army currently doesn't operate like a peacetime army with multiple deployments.

africaken:
do you know how many forward operating bases we have in somalia .also a vulnerable border where alshabaab sneak in to ambush both military and police,plant IED and attack police stations and everyone want close air support and you still need to carry ISR tasks.this also is hundreds kilometers from where you carry out air craft overhaul

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2phuxU6xYnA

Again read about the fire force in the link I shared.

QRF is a capability most African armed forces still have to build.

- Ground and air.

Henry240:
Everything can be debated.


However, MI-17terminator and MI-35M are both from the same contract.

The MI-35M is a Heavy dedicated attack helicopter, terms are only going to confuse you.

Air Force = MIL

Army = EADS


What isn't standardised in the fleet?


Now...... You've gone pretty much off topic.

Mi-35M is not the class of the Apache, Mi-28 and the Rooivalk.

How many helicopters types does the Nigerian military fly?

africaken:
for a peace time army like south africa army may be,but not countries like kenya and nigeria dealing with insurgents

Yes, insurgents.

Nothing even the Oryx gunship can't handle backed by LIFT jets.

Read about the fireforce: Helicopter warfare.

http://www.jrtwood.com/article_fireforce.asp

Henry240:
Heavy Attack Helicopters - Air Force


Light Scout Helicopters - Army


If the LSH were bought due to operational requirements, there won't be a follow-on order for both types. MI-35M and MI-17 terminator for Air Force, Gazelle for Army.

Standardized fleet? Nope.

Heavy dedicated attack helicopter in the class of Mi-28, Apache and the Rooivalk.

The types bought can again be debated and their origin.

agaugust:
10 km range MOKOPA HIGH PERFORMANCE GUIDED MISSILE missed a clearly marked and pre-confirmed target at 8 km firing range
.

Not the operational missile.

Marked by a Gripen fighter jets during tests the telemetry missile used to collect data missed the target. The reason for the miss has not been established.

The Hellfire, India's Nag all have missed targets in tests.

Your point?

Again you demonstrate your lack of knowledge regarding missiles.

Henry240:
Approx. 12 units of LUH were deployed in the AO

Approximately!

Add 20> modern heavy attack helicopters( Mi-28, Apache, Rooivalk etc) . And see how your air forces copes.

Then have 30> medium transport helicopters.

Again I'm also of the opinion that the LUH weren't bought due to operational requirements.

agaugust:
So you now say Rooivalk can ONLY operate against rag tag M23 rebels armed with ordinary machine guns like 14.5mm, and that Rooivalk cannot fight against a real army. Okay, I agree.

Multi-asset fusion that resulted in $40 million Rooivalk and $60 million Gripen = $ 100 million joint air assets firing missile and MISSING TARGET...Alright, I see how the invited viewer air forces are expected to spend $ 100 million to fire and miss target in real life war and get k.illed in counter-fire reply from the enemy that has SAM and MANPAD like South Sudan army, not to talk of the real African regional powers.

Pic....South Sudan MANPAD
.

Doctrine.

Look at how the helicopters are used.

- The helicopter in anti-tank missions carries 16 missiles.

- It is protected against such threats.

Regional power?

africaken:
while @MikeCZAR is trying to tell us its economically impossible to field both,while nigeria deployed both Gazelle LUH and Mil Hind's

In small numbers.

Henry240:
Excuse my language, one wonders why the Sudanese are always so keen on kissing the As$ of Saudi-Arabia, when they (Sudan) has a major Darfur problem to attend to.

Until you see what new weapons Saudi money is getting for them.

africaken:
how many rooivalk do you have,can they cater for south african army needs in battle ?

11 Rooivalks. One stationed at air force's Overberg AF base home to the Test flight and Development Centre.

Yes they can.

Lesser Rooivalks in the space means more vehicles or armour.

agaugust:
.
As part of the revitalised Rooivalk Mk 2 programme, Denel is moving forward with certifying the Mokopa missile on the aircraft and two missiles were fired during the Rooivalk demonstration on 3 and 4 February, 2016.

The Rooivalk launched the acclaimed 10 km range missile at a range of 8 km, which followed the laser beam from the Gripen, but narrowly missed the target.

Source : defenceweb, 7 hours ago.

http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/home/item_id-42356/

Guided missile Mokopa of 10 km range MISSED TARGET at 8 km firing range, so what will happen at 10 km ? What will happen if an attack helicopter missile misses a radar guided anti-aircraft SAM system like Pantsir in real war, not against rag tag rebels ?
.

1. Tests.

2. Not production missile.

3. The Hellfire and the Nag ATGMs did miss targets in tests.

africaken:
no body is talking about replacing them just supplementing them, JESUS!

I'm speakingfrom a African context.

Where it would be expensive to main a light and heavy real helicopter capability.

africaken:
there is something most of us neglect ,light scout attack helicopters. which can be procured in large numbers to offer extra support to the heavy helicopter gunships like the america army OH-58 Kiowa Warrior

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNwcCj9YTn0

They'll never replace heavy attack helicopter.

Similar to the debate of wheeled armoured fighting vehicles replacing tanks. l

Msauza:
That man is more like so many former ANC military wing called Mkhonto we Sizwe (MK) who fled the country yet could speak volume about their bravery. Cowards is their name.

MK initially tried to have it's HQ in SA. But after the arrest of the ANC leadership/high command including Madiba at the farm HQ a decision was made to have their HQ outside.

Speaking about bravery well it took balls to infiltrate into then Rhodesia(Zimbabwe), South West Africa(Namibia) and South Africa as failure often meant death or life in Robben island.

There was no way similar from ZIPRA, PLAN to MK could they have taken on the oppressive governments' security forces conventionally.

Msauza:
So much talk that couldn't materialised either. What is so sad is that he couldn't fight in either Windhoek or Johannesburg but Apartheid forces invaded his land and he disappeared in exile.

It was a great speech made to resonate among the PLAN ranks. It was difficult to maintain morale of the chaps in the military camps as conditions were really harsh.


He.ll even MK spoke about fighting all the way street by street to the Union building.

jteku:
Henry any idea what its doing

Ratel fitted with mine rollers clearing a path for the advancing forces.

The idea is for the pressure applied by the rollers to detonate mines in the path.

bidexiii:
Correct......

Has anyone imagined why the t90 is smaller amongst his rival class, yet deadly

Not sure about the deadly part.

But it is due to ammo storage.

gottfried21:
@ViceAdmiral Look at this I'm so confused

Rock stars.

lionel4power:
1) A toyota land cruiser has a max spped of 210KM/H while a 60mm/120mm mortar has a blasst radius of just 40m/60m. a land cruiser on max speeds has neutralize the mortar.
2) unit price of 1 unit of Javelin ATGM is US$246,000,Price of a TOW misssile In FY 2015 is $58,908 for just one missile so multiply that with probably 200 terrorist technicals and see your countries resources burn out.

3) mortars are area effect munitions and as such widely inaccurate. at 10km u cant hit sh|t.

1. The mounted anti-aircraft guns on technicals are not stabilized.

- The vehicle must stop to fire accurately.

- They don't move at high speed.

2. Modern mortar systems with an observation system (laser rangefinders, digital compass, GPS) and a fire directing system are highly accurate. The time between receiving a mission and firing the weapon is much shorter because of digitized fire solutions.

They offer great fire support to ground troops. They can be used from illumination during night fighting to firing smoke bombs to cover the movement of own forces.

Putting anti-aircraft guns on "bakkies" as a response to rebels' ways of fighting. Allowing your foes to describe the nature of fighting is......

The French faced rebels/insurgents equipped with technicals. But the density and composition of the French forces particularly the ground force was such that the technicals weren't a great threat anymore.

M14A1:
Really?
Who needs accuracy when hosing down goatforkers with high ex incendiary rounds

The other points are completely valid.


Oh and fork the beach and dotted skyline. The view from this metal can make your keyboard sticky.

Fire support, force composition and tactics.

rugged7:
I see you conveniently left out sri lanka in your analysis.

No matter how you look at it, srilanka, russia and algeria have been far more successful in counterinsurgency than ANY western military...FACT

Thatz my last word on the matter. You are free to believe what you want.

Sri Lanka?

Henry240:
Force composition is not ignored, it is upgraded to deal with the quintessential threats faced. Understand the difference.

It is.

Then why isn't force employment, tactics and fire support discussed?

You're saying all vehicles should be armed with 12,7mm systems, without looking at what fire support systems should a your units have at it's disposal. And ignoring logistics and money.

Henry240:
Agaugust is right. Minimum caliber for the infantry man should be a 12.7mm. All MRAPs, LAVs and Gun-trucks in Nigeria carry a 12.7mm minimum. Firepower wins you wars.

Wrong.

Ignoring force composition.

agaugust:
Please advise Kenya and Uganda to replace all 5.56mm and 7.62mm light machine guns on armoured vehicles deployed for anti-terrorism ops except for SF that want very light arms for close quarters combat and can mount 4 LMGs on one vehicle facing all 4 directions and backing them up with hand held MGLs.

Minimum calibre for regular infantry should be 12.7mm DshK, but better to do 14.5mm x 1 ZPU, or else terrorists will do yöur troops much damage with superior firepower in calibre and range. Nigeria learned this big lesson the hard way.

PHOTO 1 : AFRICAN PEACE KEEPERS, MOROCCO IN IVORY COAST, PIC 1

You never run out of jokes.

agaugust:
It's actually no news, it's propaganda not news. There is no proof that the tank in that video is a T-90 tanks, the image so far away and clouded view, nobody can identify that as a T-90, it could equally be T-72 or T-80 tank.

There is no official and reliable confirmation of any T-90 destroyed in any war.

Anyways, Abrams tank, Merkava tank, and Challenger tanks have all been destroyed at one time or the other, and hey the mighty British Challenger tank was destroyed by a mere RPG not even an ATGM !!!

Stop misleading people with Syrian rebels' propaganda that cannot be proved.

Soon you'll be crying about "agreesive posts".

africaken:
when did you last watch the news !

I don't follow what is happening in that country.

The warring sides had an agreement or something?

africaken:
Uganda troops leaving south sudan

Ahead of fighting season?

bidexiii:
Call it anything u like that machine is an havoc recker...........

Agreed, in good hands ofcourse.

bidexiii:
A South African Olifant Mk1A (?) #tank destroyed during the battle of Cuito Cuanavale 1987

Moved up as part of the reinforcements with 4 SAI.

Henry240:
Can't the rooivalk fire Ingwe missiles?

It can't. The prototype carried pods for the Ingwe was dropped in favour of the newer, longer and powerful black mamba.

The reason I think it was dropped is because of the fact that the Rooivalk operates almost exclusively or really takes advantage of it's NOE capabilities.

Exposes the helo.