₦airaland Forum

truthislight: I think i seem to get what u are driving at.
That the catholics members can disagree on issues.

Yes. I was clear enough all along. The Witnesses boast about this fact (as you have done here) and won't ordinarily deny it. Maybe you were just too busy clapping for thehomer who was just doing "debate" to notice the point I was trying to clarify for him and his readers. The Witnesses emphasise how united they are and in their mistaken view, unity equals uniformity of worldview - which is achieved at the expense of freedom of thought, conscience and opinion.

Well, that is obviouse.

The JW dont have anything to do with disagreeing on issues, since human opinion is inconsiquential on the matter of their beliefs.

You put it so well. Your statement would be perfect if we substitute "personal opinion" for "human opinion". Witnessing is a product of human opinions.

As long as the bible has a say on the issue under consideration it is final.
But when the bible does not have a say it is left to the individuals conscience.

Wrong. If you were right, why are matters on which the Bible is not clear, such as (1) blood transfusion, management and related matters, and (2) the return of Jesus, not left to individual consciences or understanding? Why is participation in politics through voting or other means not left to individual consciences?

NO INDIVIDUA IS THERE MOUNTH PIECE,
NO INDIVIDUAL OPINIONS IS ACCEPTED,
THE BIBLE HAS tHE FINAL SAY.

You cannot say no individual is a mouth piece since God does not speak to you. People do. Or the literature you read, are they printed from heaven? Remember that according to the Watchtower magazine, your FDS is represented by the GB, which is made up of about 12 people - all male, all elderly, nearly all white. These twelve or so people are your mouthpiece. What they say is all that matters to you. Nothing else does. Voicing out a dissent (not an enquiry) to anyone can lead to consequences.

There can only be an issue when the bible is not followed, but as it is obviouse, the bible is always there stand, so, no need for dissent unless the individuals says he is not in support of the bible, then, the outcome is obviouse.

There are many issues the Bible is not clear on and there are many others it is not very clear on. What people do is to use their own opinions to interprete it and then attribute that to the Holy Spirit. Deal with it.

Note: Your answers to my questions so far show clearly that you labelled me wrongly when you called me "dishonest". And I am certainly no "religiouse people (pentecostal/catholic)"

MacDaddy01: A crime is a crime. These christians are as crazy as the Boko Hrama they hate!

Right. In a sane society these people would be found out and prosecuted. There are even faces in the videos. Nigeria has long gone past all pretenses at being a
civilized society. At least, parts of it.

mazaje: Coming from someone that justifies r[i]a[/i]pe murder and slavery as divine punishment. . How did you know that it wasn't their god that told them to do it? After all he did it before and he never changes,no? .What does it take to be a christian?. . .They are even singing that they are soldiers of Jesus and they will never get tired in hausa. . . .What exactly is the difference tw these people and the BH?. . .

@Myjoe
They are singing that they are soldiers of Jesus and they will never get tired. . . .Thats the song they are singing in hausa.

I get your point. And, of course, it's inaccurate for anyone to say they are not Christians, since, indeed, they are. That would be as untrue as someone saying Al Qaeda or Bokos are not Moslems. They happen to be. The questions to ask are (1) whether they use Islam to justify their acts, (2) whether Islam justifies their acts, and (3) whether their acts can be justified in Islam. These Berom guys don't set about eating people because of their religion. If they went to fight against of any other tribe who happened to be Christians they would have done what they did. Cannibalism, as practised here, has no religion and there is simply no way to trace it to Christianity.

Zainab Usman is misguided in describing Jos as fighting "in the name of religion". There is no study you will carry out on the Jos crisis that will lead you to religion as the source of conflict. Jos is different from Kano, Bauchi or Zango-Kataf.

Carnibalism as a cultural practice has existed among tribes from ancient times in every continent of the world, with the possible exception of Europe. Unfortunately, this practice has survived into modern times in some places, including parts of Nigeria. The Berom are probably one of such tribes.

The practice varies from place to place. Somewhere, only enemies killed in war are eaten. Elsewhere, criminals are edible. At other places, any lost stranger would do just fine. Characterising this as Christians eating Moslems may be somewhat misleading. But it is understandable since the Berom are mostly Christian and the Hausa/Fulani are mostly Moslem.

truthislight: what has an individual statement like sarcasm to do with me on a public forum?

It is not what that goes into a man that defile the man but what that comes out of him.

I take people for what they say and not what i imagine or the meaning i read into their action.

Am an honest man as such i take that others are honest.
The gate is doing the abortion promotion since where she is anything goes.
If catholic had tought her to respect the bible she would have seen Gods view on abortion and respected it [size=14pt]and not think[/size] it is man decission and put her hands into it.
She feels her views are also important on such issues and not just the pope's.
JW would [size=14pt]all[/size] have allowed the bible to have the finall say.[b][/b]
Peace.

@bolded
Thank you. You and me know things thehomer doesn't.

@italicised
Are you, as a Witness, also allowed to "feel" your views on, say, blood transfusion, are important and not just the church's? If you went to a public forum and make contrary pronouncements on blood transfusion, would your church take it the way the Catholic Church will take Mrs Gate's actions?
Thank you.

^^^Honesty? Please answer this honestly. Melinda Gates, a Catholic, is promoting contraception at a public forum as we speak. Can you do a similar thing as a Witness?

As for being "rational, clear and just", I think thehomer is all that because he appears to support your position. Obviously you miss the sarcasm. Poor you!

^^^ Armchair? This has become circular already. Have a nice day.

truthislight: @myjoe
The JW, all of them base there teaching on the bible, from the top members down, all of them on the bible. Why will u expect them to argue with each other when they can all verify from the bible that what is said is correctly applied?

The catholic say that God talks to them, and that supper seeds what the bible says, so, it is understandable when their members refuse it owing to their understanding of what the bible says as being diff.
Peace.

Yes yes.

thehomer: What clarification was that? Saying that one is rigid and the other isn't is not a clarification since dissent isn't allowed in either of those groups.

Dissent is TOLERATED in one group. It is not in the other. That is the clarification. Thank you.

Sure you did but when you say someone is supposed to agree with what their authorities say but that the authorities aren't rigid, it implies that one doesn't necessarily have to agree with what their authorities say.

I think your knowledge of the two groups is poor. Do you or do not know of any lay Catholic who faced a panel for voicing out a disagreement with official teaching of the church? Do you or do you not know of any Witness who did?

It is a well known fact that many groups don't permit self criticism from their members and the Catholic church isn't exempt from this. The fact that some people are independent thinkers doesn't mean that the church actually allows for it.

The Catholic expects its members to follow its teachings. But it TOLERATES criticism. Get it.

Do you think that if your colleague mentioned what she said out loud to the church authorities, her views would be welcomed and compared with that of Adeboye?

I hope you know the difference between between going to authorities to ask questions and expressing criticism randomly? If she went to RCCG authorities isn't it logical it would be to ask for clarifications which most religions, JW or RCC, permits?

You don't think that Catholics are psychologically conditioned? Again, the fact that people are able to break free is a testament to them not to the Church because organizations like that do not like dissent.

The Catholic Church does not like dissent. Right. But it is aware its parishioners criticise it and it TOLERATES these people. Get it. I have read articles and listened to JWs highlight this, that is, the fact that Catholics and other Christians express dissatisfaction with Church teachings and JWs don't.

Since you have access to this information, can you please tell me how you know that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot discuss with each other on issues that they find problematic?

Refer to my last post. You can verify this point instead of arguing where no argument exists. HOW I know does not matter. You can challenge WHAT I claim to know if you find it is untrue.

The short answer is that they did not recognise Jesus as the one they were expecting, that is, the Messiah.

But that was in a past era. The Jews of today largely don't care about all that "God's people's" stuff. In fact, a large minority of Israel's population is atheist. You see, almost every tribe in the world has myths that try to explain how the world began. The Igbo have the Eri myth. The Yoruba have Oduduwa and so on. Now, imagine what would have happened if Yorubas had a written culture and had conquered the world and exported their religion to other peoples. Everyone following the religion would believe that Oduduwa descended from heaven at Ile-Ife and that was how the world began - the way everyone following Christianity once believed that God piled some sand together, molded a Jewish man and breathed into his nose the breath of life and thus came all men.

Many modern Jews recognise all these for the myth it is. As for the religious Jews, refer to my first paragraph. They believe Jesus was an impostor since they expected that when the Messiah came, he would take on the Romans and liberate them from bondage, which Jesus did not do. They hold on to Judaism, but their Judaism is an evolved one. For example, they don't kill animals for burnt sacrifices. Only Christians still believe in blood sacrifices.

thehomer: Says who? Haven't you heard of the battle between the American nuns and the bishops? Guess whose side the bishops are on.

I think you need to make more effort to understand people's viewpoint before replying them. My post was meant to be read in whole. What you said about the nuns and the bishops ought to help get my point across to you. I wasn't "debating" what you said or anything of the sort. I just made a clarification. Do you know what would happen to those nuns if they were Witnesses?

Catholics are supposed to agree with everything the pope says.

Read my post again. I said so.

The fact that some of them don't is a testament to their own elevation of independent thinking.

Yes. And "elevation of independent thinking" is not a rare thing among Catholics, or, even other Christians. There is a large minority of Christians, perhaps not a minority, who don't do "follow-follow" - it is not hard to notice this. Once, at the office, a Pentecostal colleague told me something her leader, Enoch Adeboye said, and how wrong she thought it was. She then wondered how anyone could be foolish enough to take the words of an old man on that particular matter. Such "elevation of independent thinking" is not a commodity among the Witnesses, as the Witness is told that God does not teach an individual. That, sir, was my point. One of the major problems with the Witnessing thing is that independent thinking is specifically censured. Further, the Witness is psychologically conditioned to think that whatever he is told cannot be questioned. You can ask for clarifications but you can't criticise it. A Witness who feels sure the church has got it wrong would have to keep that to himself. On the chance he finds someone to discuss it with and this gets to local minders this will not be received passively. There will be consequences.

Your claim that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot dissent to each other I think requires you to have access to more information than you can justify.

[/quote]I do have access to information that you don't. And I can justify it. In any case, there is no claim I have made that you can't verify.

thehomer: There is nothing strange about this. The Catholic Church actually does something very similar. They have the Pope who is considered infallible etc. At least, the Jehovah's Witnesses defer to a group and not just one unelected man.

Catholic folk defers to one unelected elderly man. The Witnesses defer to a group of 12 or so men - elderly, unelected, all-male, nearly all-white. The Catholics are expected to agree with everything the Pope says, but this is not so rigid. The Witnesses are expected to agree with everything the group of 12 says - this is very rigid. So while two Catholics may disagree with a papal declaration and discuss it among themselves, it is unheard-of for two Witnesses to voice out dissent about any official pronouncement of the church to each other. You are expected to agree completely in all things all the time. Very similar. Quite different.

plaetton: Boring or just scary to you? The fact that we may be on the verge of gleaming a new understanding of the universe is certain to be unsettling to many. old ideas and paradigms may fall and people's comfort zones may shatter. But dont worry, Its just human nature. I feel the same way when newer models of mercedes benz roll out, simply I had not finished my lover affair with the previous model. It takes me a while before I begin to appreciate the finer blend of beauty and functions in the newer models.
Take heart all you theists
.

I wouldn't say this at all. There is nothing to scare theists about this Higgs Boson thing. Nothing.

Deep Sight: I don't know if its just me or all of the above is in fact incredibly boring.

Not sure I want to read what you pasted above. That would probably be boring. But when that professor fellow was explaining it on the radio this morning, it was all so lucid and interesting.

@op
Please change "eshan" to Esan. That is the correct spelling and pronunciation[ay'san]. Thank you.

@Missy_B
Brilliant post. But a few observations-
1. Palm oil is essential, not optional.
2. It's okay to say palm fruit is optional, but you will notice a striking difference if you leave it out. In fact, my mother won't accept the bowl from you if you did!
3. I agree with this:

mogbomoya: Replace pumpkin leave with scent leave!

Or, better still, leave that out. The bitter leaf is good enough. But, I guess this is a matter of taste, so pumkin or scent, you are still right.

Deep Sight: Saw some breaking news on this higgs boson business on tv today. . . they say they have cracked the code of the universe. Make we siddon look the tory finish sha.

Heard it on the radio this morning. Mr can't-recall-his-name sounded really enthusiastic.

[quote author=edogram.]Which region are u from? Opkokiyor is a slangs in South. Opkokiyor is spiritual poison.[/quote]You said you SAW the woman put it. Please describe the shape and colour of Okpokiyor abi Opkokiyor for the benefit of the rest of us.

JeSoul: Telepathy ehn! lol I was just thinking about you last week and our discussion on the MB a while back. I'm not happy that I was right jare, one can almost always bet on the vain nature of man to prevail. We need a thread to discuss soon...

and I'm fine oh. Family, work & all is well. We thank God. Hope mrs, jnrs and extensions are all in stellar health & mind & body & soul :-)

All is fine fine o.

Will be a good idea about the thread. You may have observed that their Tunisian cousins haven't broken their word yet, though.

JeSoul, long time. How is you?

So you were right about the MB and I was dead wrong - well, mostly! I mean, their actions so far don't lead me to any further optimism. Though there's still hope with the matter of their Tunisian neighbours.

Lemme give you a few, not necessarily because they are tops, but because they stick in my mind positively.


Deep Sight's threads seeking to get Christians to commit on whether or not God will fry good people who just can't be bothered to chant "blood of Jeeeeeeeeeezus" or attend Sunday services .... or "believe". I will pick just two:
Inesqor on the Salvation of the Non-Christian
https://www.nairaland.com/411099/inesqor-salvation-non-christian#5663966

Nuclearboy Puts Deep Sight's Concerns on Christianity to the Sword
https://www.nairaland.com/369330/nuclearboy-puts-deep-sightss-concerns#5152570

Threads about atheism and the existence of God starring Deep Sight and Some Other Great Guys We Care About. Those were the days:
Empirical Reasoning for the Existence of God
https://www.nairaland.com/315294/atheists-empirical-reasoning-existence-god#4427391

Another Deep Sight thread:
Pastor AIO Come Teach Us the Truth
https://www.nairaland.com/335826/pastor-aio-come-teach-us#4710771

From dreams to existentialism, from near death experiences to Grail Message, to Hinduism to time travel, you will find it all in one place, here. Great thread:
The Problems with Dreams, Visions and Clairvoyance
https://www.nairaland.com/436863/problem-dreams-visions-clairvoyance#5952559

This one is not strictly religion, but it's one of my favs:
What is Intelligence?
https://www.nairaland.com/534389/what-intelligence#6965491

I like Bible topics and have opened one or two of my own. But I will paste just this one from JeSoul:
It Doesn't Matter Who Wrote the Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/651380/it-doesnt-matter-wrote-bible#8173533

If you want to laugh, you can check out this one out. Been planning a sequel for the new chaps, but haven't got round to it.
The Religion Section Posters Jamb Questions
https://www.nairaland.com/423058/religious-section-posters-j-m#5805269

Limaoscar: Too many "POORLY brought-up children" in this forum. I haven't seen real substance in most of the critisms on this forum. All they are talking about is How He speaks....How He hasn't pronounced words....and by the way, why is it that we have degenerated so low as a Nation to be abusing our President online. We may have political differences but to build our Nation is our common business as Nigerians. Quit attacking the man's person, criticise issues and suggest on this forum what YOU think is possible otherwise change your dial and go watch football.

Thank you!

Martian: As for the priest and the levite. Maybe they were just wary of being set up. maybe they didn't have the means.

Yes. . . . or maybe they just didn't care. Which makes the commandment to love (call it reminder, if you like,) necessary, wouldn't you say?

You don't have to love someone to help them, so why elevate a simple story of philantrophy and empathy into about how to behave at all times?

Does everyone behave this way? Some people are empathetic by nature and will abandon their own pursuit to help others. Others would rather keep a loaf of bread and watch if spoil than give it to a starving kid. It can be argued that it just comes down to temperament, as described by the psychologists. If everyone took Jesus' command to heart then, can they possibly be led astray by it?

So no, the man didn't dererve to be loved, but he needed help and men help themselves when they can. There is nothing trancendental about it.

Some men help others when they can. That is not far from the love Jesus preached. Charity.

I am opening this thread to gauge your responses to the command to “love your neighbour”. What gave rise to this is a post made by Martian, that Nairaland’s most committed materialist once dismissed by Jewitemi as possessing a “fossilised paradigmal mindset”.

Here is the post:

The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”

Once again, the "greatest man" who ever lived sounds like a fool.

Number 1. Love the person in the mirror and whoever else deserves it.
Number 2. You don't have to love your neighbor, just respect and tolerate them no matter your differences. If they are a nuisance,make it known that they are making life uncomfortable for you.
Number 3 Respect your society as long as there is a rule of law.
\
Nuber 4. Who the f#ck is the Lord his God? This isn't Israel.

In my opinion, the love your neighbour thesis is both reasonable and practical. But what do you think? Is Martian’s antithesis reasonable – is his write-up really antithetical to Jesus' statement?

@Martian: What do you mean by loving only those who deserve to be loved? In [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010:29-37&version=NIV1984]the parable of the good Samaritan[/url], for instance, did the injured man deserve to be loved or not?

@All: What does the command to love your neighbour mean to you? Do you think it is reasonable and practical?

jayriginal:
Actually you dont. Very little if anything can be neatly tied up in the bible (figuratively speaking). You have simply offered a position and supported it from the bible. Anyone else can counter you and support his/her claim from the bible and be entitled to be taken to be correct.

Dont forget, the issue here is who's 'revelation' is correct and not who is making the most sense.

Of course, you are right about there being no consensus among Christians on the biblical position on most things and about the Bible being open to different interpretations on matters. But on this particular one, if a debate were orgnanised between me and the person taking the literal viewpoint, I would land so many kicks and uppercuts as I cite verse after verse that he would end up looking like Rodney King after an encounter with the LA police.

Seriously, though, most Christians try to construe the meaning of scripture text from the surrounding words or by making reference to other verses. They usually resort to "revelation" when the argument is not going well for them. It's dishonest.

lagerwhenindoubt: Sure you don't need a pinch of prayer on it too - what harm could it possibly do eh

Lol. An army of prayer warriors will do just fine.

jayriginal: PS:
For the records, I do not see how the reprimand proves conclusively that Peter's action was a sin but I'm not willing to be drawn into that for now.

Well, it was Jesus himself giving the reprimand and it appears Peter accepted it. Of course, he did! It was his Lord talking. But if you have any doubts about this case, perhaps because the word "sin" was not used, what about the adulterous woman? In that case, Jesus simply said, "madam, no do am again" - go and sin no more. No mutilation recommended.

You see I have this one neatly tied up?

sauer: Intelligent, independent women are rare in Nigeria. And if our men of all kind have gone so far as to soil the fabrics of this nation, only such women can positively liberate the country.

I see people still hold on to this fallacy.

mazaje: I was stunned, I was busy cursing and swearing at them under my breath. . .

Lol. I guess I'm patient by nature.

Nice write up. . .How are you doing?. . .Its been a while. . .

I'm good. Thanks. Dealing with some critical challenges. But things are under control.

jayriginal:
I think its a good line still. If I was a pastor and I believed in amputation of offending members, that verse will not dent my conviction one bit. Thats the beauty of the bible passages. They can be interpreted to suit a wide variety of tastes.

Was it a sin for Peter to defend his master ? When Jesus asked them to pick up a sword was it cake they were going to cut with it ?
I could always find something to explain it away as a 'spirit filled' preacher. Anyone who would disagree will only make our case stronger by creating an us versus them situation (as seen within different christian denominations today).

Yes, because Jesus reprimanded him by invoking the law that anyone who kills by the sword would die by the sword. You see, he asked them to get swords, yet only one of them defends him with with it, and all that one gets is a reprimand. Maybe he had other things in mind as per the sword matter...? That's just my speculation, though. I think the reprimand proves conclusively that Peter's act was deemed a sin.

My point is that an opportunity was clearly presented for Matthew 5:20 be carried out - Peter's hands caused him to sin, but this was not done. This is different from if one merely said, "Well, Jesus must have seen people committing sins, and he never asked them to mutilate themselves." In that case, your eba analogy would be close to being apt.

jayriginal:

She did say "hand' not ear or any other parts so I'm going by that.

Right. Peter sinned with his hand.

jayriginal: EDIT:
Just by the way, I didn't take a position on whether it was metaphorical or literal. I'm simply asking how one can determine which interpretation is correct. See below

Same here. In fact, I buy your general tone in the thread. I just felt you shouldn't be allowed to get away with that line.

@op
Like someone has said, you best bet is to contact the bikers clubs. The crowd here obviously thinks it's Haojue okada we are talking about. And, of course, any Nigerian who's not into bikes will think it's insane to spend what you are asking for on one.

Your asking price is not bad, but still it will not be easy to get a buyer. A Lagos boy buys a power bike for N250k and he is good to go. I hear there are even N150k ones. Someone I know recently went to Cotonou to get one and it cost him N750k. But there are people around who go for good quality stuff, so you may get a buyer. Good luck.

Double post.