₦airaland Forum

Hehehehehe. Until we buy Goetze, Ramires no dey go anywhere.

This is Kalou's last game for Chelsea. Dude doesn't get games. He comes in and ruins a whole day's hard work.

Can you believe that? Kalou!

Nice change. Kalou to the right. Alba's having his way down the right. Time to double up on him.

Malouda almost cost us. Silly boy!

Anyone watching Luiz's positioning and anticipation? He's been immense so far.

Ibime's pal is off. Meireles on.

Wow! Mata.

Get in Lamps. 1-0. . .composed strike.

@Ritchboy

I hear the boy is the real deal. I have seen a few clips of him. From what I saw he's pacy, he's gt good technique, and very composed in front of goal. He's indeed very similar to Rooney in playing style. He made Scotland's U17 squad  at 14, however poor the Scotland squad is.

Hopefully he would grow up to become a top player. He has all he needs. I'll make some time to see him at Cobham.

dayokanu:
The stats provided shows that Drogba has more assists than Torres which means he makes better decisions with the ball than Torres

That is a very naive statement. Better decisions with the could be meant to mean anything. In fact, I could tell you that you cannot decide who makes better decisions with the ball without considering no of shots and subsequently, goal conversion ratio. I will in due time compile the stats for that.

However, you cannot tell me that someone who has an almost 50% chance of losing the ball to an opponent makes better decisions with ball. That is just plain silly.

Debo I will answer your questions. Please give me some time.

dayokanu:
What are succesful passes? Someone has more assist and you are still on this succesful Denilson-Mikel passes? is it these Mikel-Denilson like passes that makes him a better team player?

Can you tell us how many penalties Drogba took? ARe you also forgetting that Torres played more games in those 4 yrs than Drogba?

A successful pass is a pass to find a player. The more times this happens, the higher the ball retention capacity of the team.
Assist can come from anything. If Drogba takes a free kick, ball hits the woodwork and a player scores, it's an assist. That's not a pass. If Drogba shoots at goal and someone else scores, it's an assist. That's not a pass either.

There's a massive difference between an assist and a pass.

I gave you the stats.



In the 09/10 season, Drogba made 763 passes. - Suc 430, Unsuc 333. . . . 43% unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, Torres made 416 passes. - Suc 272, Unsuc 144. . . . . . . 34% unsuccessful pass rate.


Deal with it.

dayokanu:
Between age 23-27 Drogba won the Onze D Or. Was Europes most sought after striker.

Nateevs you should know when you have been owned. You are feather weight when it comes to football analysis. Just because I dont frequent this thread has made your opata go unchallenged for long.

Fact is Torres joined a football academy at age 5 while for drogba

He started 10years later.

Drogba meteoric rise between 2002 from an 80k transfer to 2004 24m transfer is something commendable

You brought out teamwork as an attribute of Torres yet stats has shown that in the last 4 seasons Drogba has had more contribution to goals than Torres either as the scorer or as the assist.

Dude. I will not go on arguing like you do. I will concede to Drogba having more assists than Torres.
That said, it is the only thing Drogba has on Torres. Only thing. Assists sometimes can be overrated.

Torres makes more successful passes than Drogba and Torres has outscored Drogba in the league 58 to 53 goals.
All Torres' goals come from open play. No penalties and no free kicks. Torres is a pure striker. Not saying that Drogba isn't.
Therefore I can conclude that potentially Torres is a better team player than Drogba.

What next?

dayokanu:
The figures I gave you were strictly from EPL games not Carling, not FA cup and not Champions league. So any other point?

Goals + assist Drogba is miles ahead of Torres.

You can deduct Dtogbas penalties if you have the figures. I am still certain he would bag more points cos Lampard is the 1st choice penalty taker for Chelsea

Okay. Torres outscores Drogba.

Hehehehehehehe. Dayo don murder person ooooo.
Beer parlour analysis. Drogba had an inferior upbringing.


WTF are you saying? You've run out of stats now it's about upbringing eh?
Do you know how many players represented Spain in Torres' category and never made it?
What happened to their "privileged background" ?


What sort of moronic interpretation are you bringing up?
Dude, I give you one chance to go back to your stats.
Do go down this route, you won't even win.

coogar:
except that in the statistics drawn out, only torres has not scored from the penalty spot in 4 seasons.
dimitar scored few pens and freekicks for spurs.

drogba and rooney are perpetual set-piece takers - rooney scored a hatrick of set-pieces against arsenal!
drogba and lampard fight regularly to boss set-pieces

torres is a pure goal-scorer. all his goals in this league were copped from open play. his statistics is the best as far as creativity is concerned
followed closely by dimitar berbatov. . . .

go and deduct the number of penalties and direct freekicks from drogba's goal haul and let's have a proper argument.
goals scored from penalties can [b]dop[i]e[/i] up [/b]a players' statistics to make him look scary!

Fabulous piece of punditry!
How did I even miss that?

Plus they cannot add the goals from CL, Carling Cup, FA Cup when Liverpool would clearly have rested Torres for the Cup games and may not have have gone as far as Chelsea in the CL. The only valid and fair comparison would be the league and over four seasons in the league, Torres outscores Drogba.

dayokanu:
The period in consideration Drogba was between age 29-33 (When attacking players are in decline) and Torres was 23-27yrs (The age where strikers are at their peak)

This is why I think you leave a few details behind for the sole purpose of argument.
Let' s follow through on this.

Could you possibly fish out the goal + assist numbers for Drogba between 23 and 27years?
That way we can have near comparative analysis.

Secondly have you taken into cognisance, that Drogba had been in the league for 3 straight seasons before Torres?
Take into consideration that Drogba has mastered the league by Torres' arrival.

It's very nice to not throw details like these away.
Oya answer question.

BlueDiva:
Who exactly are inferior players? Alonso, Gerrard, Benayoun or who?

Would you swap midfields? Remember Lamps, Ballack, Mikel, Makalele, Essien, Ballack, Deco to name a few all contributed to Drogba's goal ratio. Which would you rather have?

Now tell me they weren't inferior.

debosky:
Based on your data, I'll have to agree that he causes play to break down much more than the others.

However, it may also lead to a parallel conclusion that DD should focus on his strengths - i.e. scoring instead of trying to 'bring others into play'.

Even with his atrocious passing stats, he still creates far more than Torres, which may also suggest that a lot of Torres' passing is non-beneficial (see Denilson - king of sideways passing ) while DD is incisive and productive.

I know you've said that Liverpool didn't have championship winning form, but I think that is a slightly tenuous assertion.

Thank you very much. This is the type of discussion I like to have. If you throw a point I think is right, I will agree. Not the gibberish I see on the other side.



Back to the stats argument. If you look well Debo, you will find that the argument is subjective.

In Torres' first season, 07/08, he scored 24 league goals. Drogba scored 8  
In the second season, 08/09, he scored 14 league goals. Drogba scored 5.
In the 09/10 season, Torres scored 11 league goals. Drogba scored 29.
In the 210/11 season, Torres scored 9 league goals. Drogba scores 11.


You will find my friend that in the past four seasons, Torres has scored 58 goals . . . Drogba 53.
This is despite Torres playing with inferior players than Drogba.
Torres was not playing with the top assist player in the league (Lamps), Torres was not.

So my argument can be extended even further, not only do the stats prove that Torres is a better team player than Drogba, the stats also prove that Torres has outscored Drogba in the league over the past four seasons.


Let's have a discussion.

This is utter fallacy. Treat the stats in one post and deal my my assertions in another. Do not force Lampard's pass rate down my throat and fail to treat Drogba's one. I am not dealing with Lamps' stats, it's talk for another day.

If anyone is avoiding the issue, it's you. There is clear difference between TEAM WORK and WORK RATE. Torres is more likely to find a team mate than Drogba will. Five straight posts and you have avoided the issue. Na you dey run.

In trying to prove that DD is a poor team player, he proved that Lamps is the greatest teamplayer - yet his argument is that both Lamps and DD are detrimental to teamwork.

You are playing smart by not tackling my views on DD head on. It's very convenient to throw the Lamps argument and smartly use that as a smoke screen to avoid any direct discussions for Drogba then eventually throw in Drogba's scoring stats when I never argued about his goals in the first place.

Face the Drogba - Torres pal. Leave the Lamps one for another day.

So the foreign investors are going to swallow this hook, line and sinker and bring all the billions without proof eh?

@Dayo

I am sorry I cannot reply to your post because it's bereft of any technical analysis.
The only thing I see is Torres was benched for Spain. What has that got to do with being a better Chelsea team player?
How can you even say what I'm saying does not make sense, when the evidence is glaring in the face?

There's no reason for me to reveal Lamps stats. No one's arguing Lamps pass rate.
The revelation of other stats was to oblige Debo's request to eliminate the slight chance of bias.
And I did. Debo, I expect will come back and say "yes Nateevs, you are right, based on the facts"


That said, it seems stupid to me that you will rant over the revelation of stats that screw Drogba and call it, "fixing a leaking roof when the house is burning" yet in the same post challenge me to bring out the same stats for Lamps because you know it will side with you. You must be out of your mind to reason that way.

I will compile the stats for Lamps and I bet you will come back and ask me what I think. Yet you see the same stats about Drogba and you think I am trolling. Deal with it dude!

Story story . . . . All this is gibberish to me. The argument is the difference between "TEAM WORK" and "WORK RATE".
The argument stems from you creating a false sense of reality that Drogba has better team work than Torres.

The stats prove that Torres is more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is. 10% more likely for that matters.
Simple. If you want to argue something else, then that's up to you.

Just like you said:

I don't think anyone has ever claimed that DD is neat on the ball.

I am saying:

I don't think anyone claims he doesn't score goals.

There's nothing you are proving that's more relevant. It's the same old rant from you.
Accept the facts. Then we move on to the next.

So I obliged Deborah's challenge and went to compile the stats of other player in attack for Chelsea in the same 09/10 season and this is the results.

In the 09/10 season, Malouda made 1573 passes.  Suc. 1228   Unsuc. 345. . . . . 21% unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, Anelka made 1112 passes.  Suc. 831   Unsuc. 281. . . . . 25% unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, kalou made 385 passes.  Suc. 295   Unsuc. 90. . . . . 23% unsuccessful pass rate.

In the 09/10 season, Drogba made 763 passes. - Suc 430, Unsuc 333. 43% unsuccessful pass rate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This absolutely, without any iota of bias, confirms that despite the goals, Drogba is the[b] prime[/b] reason our play in attack breaks down. Malouda is 22% more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is.



As stated earlier. I have compiled this data in spreadsheet format and anyone who wants it can request for it.

BlueDiva:
Haba, is this some academic exercise?
Nateevs, please i would like to know 5 strikers who have played for Chelsea in the last 10 yrs you consider better than DD and why.

It's impossible for me to give you a concrete answer because there are several things to consider.
However, speaking from a technical stand point, please give me JFH, Eidur, Crespo, Zola and TAF anyday of the week.

Ibime:
Now Nateevs is saying its DD and Lamps fault that the team struggle without them. I guess its Zidanes fault that France struggle without him or Rooneys fault that Utd struggle without him.

@Ibime.
Ofcourse there is nothing refreshing. When it comes to upholding stats, you shy away. Face the stats staring you in the face dude. If it doesn't prove anything at all it shoots down your theories. You are going round in circles saying things I have not said. When I have the time, I will quote all the things you think I have said and I will challenge you to find quotes for them.

Firstly, please find quotes where I have made people believe this:-

Ibime:
Now Nateevs is saying its DD and Lamps fault that the team struggle without them.

If not, stick to facts and stop yarning opata.

debosky:
Care to give us pass completion stats for all the other players in the side apart from Drogba? The other forwards and attacking midfielders would be useful as a start.

It would help us ascertain whether the below statement is simply a case of a confirmation bias (ask statisticians like Ibime for more info) or really a valid conclusion.

Okay. I will make some time and provide the stats. It will give us a definite answer. Give me some time as it takes quite a while to compile.

Obama when he spoke commended Nigeria but back home we are being abused. When we had the Security Council meeting outside the General Assembly but here we are[b] being abused[/b]. When the President of South Africa, Gabon spoke they commended Nigeria but here we are not being appreciated. But what I can assure you is that Nigeria is on course and with your prayers and guidance of God we will surely get to the destination we are going.

WTF does he mean by "being abused"?
Does he even know what he means by "being abused"?
Gosh!


Grown man who doesn't know the difference between being insulted and being abused.

After being inspired by Ritchboy's clear difference between "WORK RATE and TEAM WORK",  I took time to work on some stats - specifically pass rate. I took a sample season - 09/10 season. I chose this season because it was Drogba's most successful season and the season we played the best football with the most passes and goals, breaking all records in the Roman Era.

I then compared that same season with Torres and this is what I came out with.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reviewing every single game, I came up with the total number of successful and unsuccessful passes made by each player in their respective teams and this is the data.

In the 09/10 season, Drogba made 763 passes. - Suc 430, Unsuc 333. 43% percent unsuccessful pass rate.
In the 09/10 season, Torres made 416 passes. - Suc 272, Unsuc 144. 34% percent unsuccessful pass rate.



It's very simple. Even though Drogba gets a lot of goals in attack, he is the prime reason we don't play well in attack. Drogba is 43% likely to not find a team mate when he has the ball. Based on the data sample, Torres is 10% more likely to find a team mate than Drogba is. This concludes that Torres is potentially a better team player than Drogba is.

Other factors to consider are:-

1. Chelsea had a much better midfield than Liverpool did.
2. Chelsea had much better cohesion than Liverpool did.
3. Chelsea had much better off field and on field stability than Liverpool.
4. Chelsea had Premier League winning form.



I have this data compiled in Excel Spreadsheet format for those who want it.

Hey man, you are attacking me rather than understanding me. I was not having a go at Ramires. I was having a go at Ibime. He cannot stand Ramires, yet the boy is effective. So that post was to spur his thinking wrt stats. If Ramires goes on to score 15 goals in the season yet continues "hiding from passes" and making awful passes, will Ibime be hailing him as the next best thing?