₦airaland Forum

Jen33:
From what I've seen, nothing really changes in ''born again'' people. Sure they attend more religious meetings, become more preachy, and want to pray everywhere they go.

But they are not visibly more giving, kinder to others, or more willing to forgo their enjoyment for the benefit of others. Neither are they any less materialistic, or less inclined to join the military etc etc.

So there's very little evidence of any sort of heightened spirituality among 'born again' people. There's more a SHOW of being righteous, but beneath that, there's nothing.

Oh sorry for your experiences, you seem to have almost always find yourself flanking ways with the wrong sets perhaps you are yet to meet some of us. Be that as it may, the mind of an individual does not automatically changes almost immediately he or she is bornagain (and mind you born again is not same as repentance), the transformation of the mind is a process and not an instance because the mind feeds on information and this mind in question has been feeding on stuffs that do not edify for as long as he or she can remember these information cannot vanish over night no thats magic hence the experience is not real thats why we say that christianity is a life. For instance, if you used to have a boy-friend or girl-friend prior to the time you got born again, the mere fact that you are now born again does not obliterate the tons and tons of informations you have deligently accummulated all these duration of shared mutual intimacy, or would it?
But the bible which is our instruction manual and guilde provides us a veritable solution
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God".
it is interesting to note that the Greek word translated "renewing" here is <anakainosis> which means renewal by an activity of renovation ; renovation is not spontaneous rather its a process

Ephesians 4:23
"And be renewed in the spirit of your mind".
in this context the choice of Greek word used to communicate the intent of the author from whence the English "renewed" was translated from is "<ananeoo>" which has amongst several synonyms an interesting one-reform
so when the bible says "---be renewed in the spirit of your mind" the implication is that your mind already has a supposed predefined "form" so now "give" it a new form, alter the settings and configurations how; the word of God is the key and agency of/for any meaningfull change.

The issue now is that in the course of this "renovation and reformation" process which could be regarded also as the "the process of growth and maturity" like in a child errors and mistakes are not unexpected hitherto the apostle said "---when l was a child l spoke like a child, but now that am old l put childish things behind"

And l love this scripture that captures the character of a child
Proverbs 20:11
"Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right".
There's what is know as "the doings of a child", why because he/she is a child

You see many people don't know what chirstianity is all about because they don't take the descipline to study and meditate on the word of God, they just pounce on issues and make open their folly and ignorance

When a Christian makes mistakes it is foolishness and a show of ignorance for one to conclude that they are not genuinely born again, what means it that you have a Christian who is still a babe (child)

Galasians 4:1-2
"Now I say, that the heir, as long as he is a child, different nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father”.

The child will be given to tutors- there is no need for tutors if perfection has been attained and that does not annul, abrogate, nullify, discredit, or disqualify them from being legitimate sons or daughters of their father

@nuella

They went to Abraham's bossom. 

  The American Heritage Dictionary defines bosom as "The heart or center". I believe that faithful people, prior to Christ's resurrection, were carried off to Abraham's Bosom. Abraham's Bosom was at the center of the earth across from hell and separated from it by "a great gulf fixed"(Luke 16:26). The old testament saints, sins COVERED by the blood of the animal sacrifices, were waiting in Abraham's Bosom (Paradise). This can be seen when the witch at Endor brings up Samuel(1 Samuel 28:15). Matthew 12:40 states that Christ must be three days and three nights in the HEART of the EARTH. Ephesians 4:8-10 also demonstrates that he descended to the "lower parts of the earth". As Christ said to the thief on the cross "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."(Luke 23:43) The thief would die and go to Abraham's Bosom, since Christ had not yet applied His Blood to the Mercy Seat to WASH away our sins. Christ's Soul would descend to Abraham's Bosom to preach, maclamatios.(1 Peter 3:19). But, He did not stay there(Acts 2:27). He also took the keys of death from the devil, after defeating him, he make a spectacle of them in hell.After the three days Christ took paradise and the saints to heaven with him. This is evident in Matthew 27:52. After Christ's resurrection paradise is referred to as being above as mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4. 
Posted on: Yesterday at 11:12:22 AM

Thisis a brilliant post!

Im more comfortable with the idea they got born again on pentecost is more acceptable for me, because it agrees with
the experience of Peter in the house of cornelius appreared?

@joagbaje
Well back to Topic , when did the apostles got saved.

Joagbaje:
The question was , when did the apostles get born again? . I know there are two major schools of thought . One says on the Pentecost ,the second says when Jesus appeared in the upper room and breathed upon them saying "recieve the spirit"

It's popularly believed they got born again and filled with the holyghost same time on the day of Pentecost .Just like cornelius and his family.

This is a food for thought:
The praises of men is like chewing gum, what you do with it is you chew it and throw it away, you don't swallow it else it'll run your stomach
so for every great man; it makes no difference if the praise or critisize, every true man of God is unperturbed by the praises or criticism of people rather Hebrews 12:2 becomes their companion.
Hebrews 12:2
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of throne of God".

@ Joagbaje

Joagbaje:
Go and sit down and study you bible well dear.

Is it not better for you to point the portion of scriptures he should study?

LoveKing:
Jude 1:16

New International Version (©1984)
These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

New Living Translation (©2007)
These people are grumblers and complainers, living only to satisfy their desires. They brag loudly about themselves, and they flatter others to get what they want.

English Standard Version (©2001)
These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.

International Standard Version (©2008)
These people are complainers and faultfinders, following their own desires. They say arrogant things and flatter people in order to take advantage of them.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
These people complain, find fault, follow their own desires, say arrogant things, and flatter people in order to take advantage of them.

King James Bible
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

American King James Version
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaks great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Go on boy list out your ignorance of scripture because it is obvious that the read the Bible with oil in your eyes.-----l sympathize with you on your pathetic need for knowledge

Some comments are really really comical, If I may say . How can we display jubilance over a man that abandon his call. Because of people .  He needs a father like paul boost his courage .

Colossians 4:17
17 And tell Archippus, “Pay attention to the ministry you have received in the Lord, so that you can accomplish it. ”

Some good Samaritans should have done what Paul did in the scripture above. They rather made a hero out of someone who deserted his call and assignment.

@ Mobinga
Pease calm down man abeg, don't be to quick in raining shame on everybody including yourself. No be him franchise again haha na wa o please stop talking with sentiments hanging over your lips

Forgiveness is gift of love
Romans 13 : 10
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilment of the law."

the problem with alot of people especialky christians is that regardless of them fact that they are fully aware of the need to forgive buty many are affraid to perhaps because they feel that ifi they do they'll loose that feeling of justice by revenge which to them is one hard pill to swallow especially when thewrong came from a bossom person hetherto they consider unfair for such a one to easily get away with it.

Love does not count wrong done to it
TO FORGIVE IS A GIFT OF LOVE AND LOVE IS GOD

@Joagbaje
Please permit me to call your attention to this very interesting scripture you sited earlier on which l feel its a key to understand how that the apostles or anybody else could't have possibly gotten bornagain prior to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Corinthians 12 : 13
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

You know what Jo, l feel this is the key because if by one Spirit we ALL have been baptized (Grk baptizo- to be immense completely) into Christ meaning that the Holy Spirit was/is the agency by which we all were inducted and initiated as God's legitimate adopted sons in Christ Jesus and this Holy Spirit described to us by Jesus as the "another comforter"

John 14 : 16 "And l will prayer the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abideth with you for ever"

vs26 "But the Comforter, which is them Holy Ghost, whom them Father will send in my name ---"

This all important gift was a promise till Acts 2, so important was this promised Comforter that Jesus enjoined His disciples to remain in Jerusalem untill "the promise of the Father" (officially) shows up thus beginning His operation on earth (He was/is the key)

Acts1:4-5
"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, buty wait for them promise of the Father, which, saith he, yes have heard of me. ---but ye shall be BAPTIZED with the Holy Ghost not many days hence"

JESUS SAID REMAIN UNTILL THE HOLY SPIRIT (WHO IS THE AGENCY OF THEIR INDUCTION AND INITIATION INTO SONSHIP IN CHRIST JESUS AS WELL BEGOTTEN CHILDREN) SHOWS UP

Remember the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Adoption
Romans 8: 14 -15
"For as many as are led by them Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For yes have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; buty yes have received them Spirit of ADOPTION , whereby we cry, Abba Father".

The question now is: how is it pissible for these same apostles to be bornagain (become adopted children) without the Holy Spirit or before the coming of the Holy Spirit

John 1: 12
"Buty as many as received him,(which the apostles did) to them gave he power to become them sons God, even to them that believe in his name."

"He gave them piwer to become sons---" "buty yes have received them Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry Abba Father"

For God sake this is a simple "logic"

SirJohn:
look at Joagbaje accusing someone of evading questions wonders shall never end

My dear SirJohn please this forum would gladly appreciate no deviation from the thread. Thank you

@ OLAADEGBU
l think you should answer them question Joagbje asked you: ifi them disciples were bornagain before Jesus died and resurrected then of what significance then is the shedding of the blood of Jesus to their them. thank you

@shotster50
[quote author=shotster50 link=topic=108614.msg7580614#msg7580614 date=1295673673
U love yourself too much. Infact I am pretty sure you make love to yourself.
[quote][/quote]alarm! wooooh, wooooh the software of this forum has been infiltrated by a human virus with a corrupt and twisted mind how else can one justify such a deviation in thought from morality.

For God sake everybody, this is a simple matter; the apostles of Jesus couldn't have been born again during period of his earth walk prior to His death and eventual resurrection, because even Jesus Christ Himself who is described as "the first begotten from the dead" was declared the son God by the resurrection from the dead:
[b]Romans 1:3-4
"Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead"[/b]From the fall of Adam from grace as accounted for in the book of Genesis stretching down to the point Jesus died, was buried and triumphanly resurrected from the dead by the glory of the Father, all men where spiritually dead separated from God by virtue of the adamic nature hetherto their best of trying to please God wasn't good enough little wonder Jesus speaking in John 4:23 that God seeks for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Meaning that all the people of the old dispensation could offer couldn't suffice thus necessitating the coming of the ultimate sacrifice- Jesus Christ, also those of the old worshippers were not the true worhippers else Jesus wouldn't announce how that the Father is seeking for true worshippers that means they were not available as at then because all men including the apostles of Jesus before His death and resurrection didn't have the capacity to accommodate the new life which comes by virtue of the new birth leading to an installation of a re-created spirit, so there was way they have been born again.

Another important point is that the mere fact that the Holy Spirit officially came to commence His ministry on earth as the promised "Alos Parakletos" is enough prove that these apostles could't have gotten born again before Jesus died and rose from the dead.

l am a strong believer and subscriber to the school of thought that the apostles got born again during the experience with the Holy Spirit at that upper room in the day of pentacost (Acts 2) because is almost the same scenerio recorded in Acts 10 at the home of Cornelius because there is no record of those gentiles getting born again the "normal" manner we are aware with

Acts 10:44-48
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days”

am enjoying this coz the ring is getting hot and the punches are getting really ferociously hard on contact, keep the it up boys the arena is full to capacity.

Zikkyy:
If tithe belong to God, and God command that the tithe be given to the Levites what right has the pastor to collect what has been given to the Levite as inheritance? God did not collect tithe in the Old Testament but directed that it be given to the Levites, by giving your tithe to the Levites, you are giving to God. Your pastor has claimed for himself an inheritance that does not belong to him. That is why people see MOGs as thieves.

Where have you been my dear all this while because it seem crystal obvious you've missed out on alot of vital info. I have mentioned earlier on this topic or one related with it that the old testament was a shadow of the new (REAL), while the new testament was concealed in the old testament little wonder the statement of Jesus in John 4:23-24
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when THE TRUE worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

oh if there is the "true worshippers" then by default there is undoubtedly "the false worshippers". Now to show the ignorance of many; somebody might pick on the "false" and say ok so are you saying that they were not real and but God actually gave them the details and pattern of worship they practised so what makes it "not the real". That was the best God could get but that wasn't the ultimate.
The blood of goats and bulls and sheeps were good back in the old testament because they brough in a sense "justice" satisfying the emphasis of God's righteousness
"---without the sheding of blood there is no remission of sins--"

so the levitical order, the priestly order and all of the other orders where only but shadow of the real with all due respect. They fuctioned as the shepherd of God for the people and that is the minisyrt and office of the pastor

Jeremiah 3:15
"And l will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

garyarnold:
Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God.  After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God.  Then he self-appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe or his gifts.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if your pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God?

Lucky for those of you who think you tithe, you are merely giving a tenth of your income to your church.  You aren't paying the Biblical tithe or you would be disobeying God's command to take His tithe to the Levites.  But then, if in your heart you are paying the Biblical tithe, then I guess you are sinning and breaking God's commands.

Was it God that came down to collect tithes in the old testament times? Was it not His ministers?

^^^
good question!

KunleOshob:
@newmumu
Hebrews 7:5-19 clearly states that tithes has been done away with. It also described it as a weak useless and unprofitable practise.

hi my boy- kuns kuns 
this is just a concern; are you sure the glasses you are using  are not stained or maybe you are beginning to see men as trees   
wake up boy you still have a long way 

ogajim:
Some Nigerians and their "haste" to "make" it will go any length and follow any "Pastor, MO, Prophet, Evangelist, GO, GS, GOC, etc" who promise them that prosperity is within reach if only "you believe, have faith, pay tithe, sow a seed, offer first fruit offerings" but at the end of the day while the common folks are still holding on to those beliefs, their "leader" is smiling to the bank. I don't know when these bunch are going to get it but our Lord Jesus Christ was only recorded to have mentioned tithe (of produce no less) ONCE yet they tell you they follow Jesus Christ.

Those who believe they need to pay tithe to their local church ought to continue doing so as long as they know it is not mandatory or a requirement for salvation as our God can't be bought. The early missionaries brought something with them be it subsidized or free education, lived among the people under the same conditions, etc but not these new age jet set prosperity preachers.

Let me people go!

Nobody said that it was a prerequisite for salvation, we already know the basic requirements for eternal salvation of a man's soul. You see that is the problem with many of you people; you think you know but you only succeed in displaying a well informed ignorance, tithing is based one a principle the attention is not what is being tithed on rather its on the principle guiding its practice and the statement of its significance to the the believer.
l am not a pastor, am a christian one that has practice the faith for years actively on a consistent basis since the age of 6 and l have found out by studies that tithing is consistent with truth coz lf have lived and am still leaving a well planned and fulfilled life. lf didn't learnt tithing in the church, l began learning tithing at home by my mum so the idea of oh the pastor has designed tithing to enrich himself at my detriment is share fallacy and propaganda.

Genesis 14 : 20
"And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he (Abraham) gave him (Melchizedek) TITHES OF ALL "

Only 40days fasting? What of 4 nights
Is the EFCC afraid? Why using softsell magazines to brag? If you feel someone committed an offence,just arrest him Na ! Why all these noise.

If. We must stick with the bible, there is no scripture that says God did away with tithe. It existed before the law so the changing of the law is insignificant to tithing.let's not work by assumptions .

KunleOshob:
@newmi
We know your your god whom you serve with your tithes is oyaks, unfortunately he is not recognized by Jesus who views the vagabond as a wolf in sheeps clothing.

My tithes Goes to God,and not my pastor. What God is looking at is the heart by which I give it and not where the physical cash goes.

Has he not proven it Enough? With the write up above?

@poster
What manner of a title is this?
any way the title simply reveals the character of your person, so your have not us told us how your do your own

olu77:
Knowing God is the best thing that has ever happened to me, His favour, mercy and grace surround me and my family. I have learn to trust Him because He is ever faithful. Whatever happens, I only need to remind him of His covenant.

My prayer is: Lord in your great mercy reveal yourself to those who do not know you, those who have concluded in their heart that you do not exist; like you revealed yourself to Saul and changed his name to Paul, do it again that these precious lives may not perish in their unbelief.

yeah you are right there couldn't be anything or anyone else better to experience other than experiencing God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Ghost. And for that prayer am saying a very big AMEN

This tithe issue is simple: if don't believe it; good no problem stay poor or rich with your believe and if you do then stay true to your believe the fact is that though now we know in part but the time cometh when Christ shall appear and we shall see Him just as He is
1 Co 13: 9
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."

1Co 13:10
"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

1Co 13:12
" For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

The question is simple, if you know how the tithe according to scripture calculated then comment and lets not keep repeating same issue over and over again.

All through scripture, we have in records of the percentage allocated to the tithe

Gensis 28:22
" And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee."

Num 18:21
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Even the what
Lev 27:30
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

The Where
Mal 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it

Heb 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Eveything is not recorded in the bible. He was a tither and  he gave tithes of all. Gold, silver and livestocks. God took vows seriously because God reminded him of thesame vow in chapter 31

Genesis 31:13. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land. ’ ”

^^^
says who? the devil is only trying to Robb us of blessing by attacking tithes. We will continually serve God with our tithing till Jesus comes.

Aside the fact that it preceeded the law, there are number of practices and injuctions that out-lived the law for instance
Exodus 20: 12
"Honour thy and mother; that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy giveth thee"

wouldn'tit been ludacris for us to dishonour our parents justifing such on the grounds that "we are  now in the new dispensation and the old has come and gone". This injuctions still is applicable to us today and this re-echoed by the apostle paul

Ephesian 6: 1-3
"Children obey your parents in the Lord for this right. Honour thy and mother which is the first commandment with promise, that it may be well with thee and that mayest lives long on the earth."

Firstfruit offering is one of those injuctions that outlived the law.

First fruit was instituted from beginning , ever before the law came. It is by faith.

Genesis 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: