One of Jesus's founding doctrine was the doctrine of passive non-resistance to evil and violence. This is expounded in the books of Luke 6: 27 - 28 and Matthew 5: 39 - 41.

[table]

[tr][td]Luke 6: 24-31[/td][td]Matthew 5: 37-45[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. [/td]
[td]
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. [/td][/tr]
[/table]




These are some of the most preposterous words attributed to Jesus. He is commanding people to love, not least their enemies. Love, the classic sense of the word, is a sentiment that is gained and not commanded. Loving ones enemies is not the route to resolving the tension that may exist between both parties. Negotiation and discussions are a better way to deal with ones enemies than the blanket expenditure of ones love.

Further, why should one NOT resist evil? Basically, he takes from an individual the legitimate right to defend himself. If a man walks into your house and takes away your books, do you also give him you clothes? If he strikes you, would you show him the other cheek? How many Christians adhere to this standard?

Here is what George Smith has to say about this doctrine;

Why? For what possible reason should one offer oneself as a sacrificial animal in this way? Such questions, however, do not apply to Jesus, because he is interested only in obedience, not in presenting rational arguments. In fact, when viewed in this context, this commands begin to make sense. We are not to judge others, Jesus says, which is merely another facet of suspending ones critical faculties. We are to tolerate injustice, we are to refrain from passing value judgements of other people -- such precepts require the obliteration of one's capacity to distinguish the good from the evil; the require the kind of intellectual and moral passiveness that generates a mentality of obedience. The man who is incapable of passing independent value judgements will be least critical when given orders. And he will be unlikely to evaluate the moral worth of the man, or the supposed god, from whence those orders come. Source: Atheism: The case Against God, George H. Smith, Page 325.

No wonder they are called "The Flock", servile little machines, at the beck and call of clerics and deities!

Are there any Christians today who follow these precepts of Jesus? If you don't, are you justified in calling yourself a Christian?



=====================================================================================================

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====================================================================================================

Would you try and stop a burglar breaking into your home? Why? That is not what Jesus would have done!

Are you like a religous scholar or something,Therationa?I admire your vast knowledge on religous issues

I will answer with this quote taken from Gore Vidal's speech;

The great unmentionable evil at the center of our culture is monotheism. From a barbaric Bronze Age text known as the Old Testament, three anti-human religions have evolved --Judaism, Christianity, Islam. These are sky-god religions. They are, literally, patriarchal --God is the omnipotent father-- hence the loathing of women for 2,000 years in those countries afflicted by the sky-god and his earthly male delegates. The sky-god is a jealous god, of course. He requires total obedience from everyone on earth, as he is in place not for just one tribe but for all creation. Those who would reject him must be converted or killed for their own good. Ultimately, totalitarianism is the only sort of politics that can truly serve the sky-god's purpose. Any movement of a liberal nature endangers his authority and that of his delegates on earth. One God, one King, one Pope, one master in the factory, one father-leader in the family home.
; Source: http://www.isebrand.com/Gore_Vidal_Monotheism_1992.htm

The progress of human civilization is in danger if superstitions are allowed to grow unchecked. Just like the doctors and scientist study viruses and bacteria in the hope of minimizing their impact of humans, I study religion for the same reason.

@therationa

Shoddy biblical scholarship - as usual

imhotep:

@therationa

Shoddy biblical scholarship - as usual

Why don't you rebut by arguments rather than just comment sloppily. I want to see your arguments.

therationa:

Why don't you rebut by arguments rather than just comment sloppily. I want to see your arguments.

@therationa
This level of sloppy biblical scholarship deserves no response.

Go and improve yourself before asking dumb questions.

imhotep:

@therationa
This level of sloppy biblical scholarship deserves no response.

Go and improve yourself before asking dumb questions.

Well, yet again. The last refuge of the coward. Nowhere to hide now, can't even think of a rebuttal? C'mon, address the verses I mentioned above.

You have been unable to defend atheism and evoltuion.

You have also failed to lampoon the bible. You merely revealed your inner shallowness.

imhotep:

You have been unable to defend atheism and evoltuion.

You have also failed to lampoon the bible. You merely revealed your inner shallowness.

When I see you thrashing about like this, I know I have got you. I have asked you to defend the subject of this post (ie Jesus doctrine of passive non-resistance to evil) yet you have said NOT a single word about it. You only want to thrash about from here to there, and there.

We are not talking about atheism and evolution on this post. There are other posts for that. Please, stay on topic.

@therationa
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

If this is the purpose of the dat passage why then do u condemn it? Because as u well know the sun n rain benefit both the just n unjust. Why does it not benefit only those deserving/just? U may say it can't make value judgements but u as a human who makes value judgements still choose to forgive do u not or do always get ur revenge/justice on those who wrong u?

Interestingly, there's not been a single rebauttal of therationa's arguments on this thread. Wonder why!

Interestingly, there's not been a single rebauttal of therationa's arguments on this thread. Wonder why!

because no matter what u say or prove,he will never stop believing that ''he is a descendant of monkey or gorillaz''
So why wasting my time? i'v got important things to do rather than to waste time here. .

®~^Sly^~®:

because no matter what u say or prove,he will never stop believing that ''he is a descendant of monkey or gorillaz''
So why wasting my time? i'v got important things to do rather than to waste time here. .

But this thread is not about ''he is a descendant of monkey or gorillaz'' ie evolution. It is about Jesus's view on self-defense, a far cry from evolution - so I think it deserve a serious rebuttal.

Incidentally, I do not think therationa's idea of evolution is ''he is a descendant of monkey or gorillaz''. If I remember my biology correctly, I think evolution simply says humans and apes and primates have a common ancestor; not that humans are descended from apes. - a major difference.

@tpaine
I asked therationa a question he has not answered.

@therationa

Permit me to say here that the issue
of rebutting your arguments is irrelevant.

Why? You ask.

Analogy: imagine trying to interpret a
Yoruba poem with Igbo, just because a few
words in Yoruba SOUND LIKE Igbo.

Let me explain:

You said: "Love, is a sentiment"

Well, you'll only have to read the Bible to
find out the Bible's OWN definition of
love. Not exactly your average
dictionary definition of love, the kind
that you are avoiding a "blanket expenditure"
of.

"Suspending critical faculties"? Let me tell you something
about suspending critical faculties.

Let's say you are sick. For you to be treated by a
doctor, you have to "suspend your critical faculties"
and trust that this fellow in white robes actually knows
a bit more than you about how your body operates.

Does that make you a fool? Does that mean you
are brainless, since you are supposed to know
enough about yourself to treat yourself?

It's only enlightened self-interest to admit that
there are some things beyond you and that
you need HELP. That is even why you read a
lot of material from folks better versed in atheism
than you.

Finally, the Bible is the Word of GOD! Granted, very bold claim.
To you, maybe very irrational claim, afterall there are
volumes of "inspired" documents out there.

Why do I want to stress this point? Because the Bible
is its own interpreter. It doesn't pander to anybody's
pet ideas about "injustice", "moral worth of man", "rational
arguments",

How would our world be if the law of gravity was so "liberal"
as to know the right time to operate and when to ease
off a bit? How comforting that some things are FIXED,
granting a certain stability and peace of mind!


P.S. Just a thought; could you really have a fruitful
negotiation/discussion without "refrain[ing] from
passing value judgment [on] other people"?

On this one of my earlier threads (in the now infamous pseudonym therationa) I broached the morally repugnant subject of non-resistance against evil, one of Jesus's core messages. How many Christians live their lives by this standard?

Is it right to curse someone who steals from you?

Is George Bush right to go after the Taliban?

huxley:

Is George Bush right to go after the Taliban?

I doubt if george bush believes in christainity. . . he is just using it as a cover up to futher his agenda. . . the religious right in america is clearly what is wrong with religion today . . . . kill the enemy is what they advocate for most of the time . . . . its hard to believe that people like newt gingrich, rudy guliani, mitt romney, rush limburg, sean hannity, karl rove, vice president cheiney, and donald rumsfield believe in the religion the profess to adhere to. . . . . .

You seem to have nailed the issue therationa! You've actually stumbled onto the very reason Jesus wound up being tortured to death - the fact that his entire purpose rotated around love. The thing is that Jesus was very specific about what love actually is, whereas you've adopted the bland Disney version which is nothing but a caricature of Jesus' idea. According to the Bible, "God is Love" - not "God is loving",  a description of him that we can interpret based on our own philosophy of what love is. The idea is that love is not a concept but a person - our actions only qualify as love if they resemble his.

In short, Jesus' teaching on love amounts to "hate absorbed is hate defeated". He was not advocating standing there waiting for bad men to hit you, he was talking about storming the enemies' territory to bring care for the broken, understanding for the hate-filled and forgiveness for the hopelessly messed up. That sort of thing makes people want to hurt you; that's why he wants his people to turn the other cheek.

You look at His teaching in the same way as the people did that heard him - impractical idealism. Why should they love the occupying force of the Roman army when they should be fighting them and achieving political freedom? Because Jesus was not interested in a political kingdom but in "the Kingdom of Heaven" - the character of God that "speaks up for those who cannot speak for themselves". People that don't value their own lives or possessions as much as they value the welfare of even their worst enemies. You're right  - it's not a way to get rich, but Jesus suggested that there were even more important things than money and personal health. Important enough that you would be prepared to lose everything standing up for God's big three priorities justice, mercy & faithfulness.

It's not popular - Israel has always rejected it. You see them still with more of an interest in political freedom than in love; how well is that working out for them? I'm not singling them out  - Jesus' teaching is no more popular with "Christians" either. As he said "the road is narrow and few travel on it."

If you want to know what Jesus' love looks like, look at what he did, look at people that tried to live it out like the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King. Ghandi thought it was the answer to the world's problems even though he was a Hindu. If you're interested, I have some thoughts on it at http://bloodwoodtree.org/war/.