gregyboy:



Did Roupell's write anything about benin and ife connection,

Egharevba works was over influenced.....
When i mean over influence i mean the over with all emphasis


Egharevba was born in ondo by a benin-akure chief who had reside in ondo by the orders of the oba to oversee economic activities and he later married an ondo woman, egharevba had later finished is primary school in ondo before returning to benin
He later went to the University of ibadan the only university at then nigeria,and was also later crowned a benin chief
After his masters program he needed to further his studies for his phd level and before any admission can be given. He needed a publication of its own
Before he could qualify to study for his phd
He decided to write on benin history.....
The oba had influenced his writing as a chief in the palace for his political ambitions
While going to publish it at the ibadan printing press he was asked to favour his writings to the yorubas after doing it before his book was published in his subsequent books he tried to correct his first edition but no one took him serious again except the edo people.....

You're lucky I left that Egharevba's book in Ife.

1. He was from Benin

2. His father was an original Benin

3. His mother was a serious Benin with prominent ancestry.

4. His wife was a proper Bini woman with better Benin ancestry

5. He schooled and grew up in Ondo.

6. You were not there when he handed the book to the press. Don't regurgitate roadside uneducated rumours.

Finally, Egharevba got all of his data from Benin people in Benin & also Benin palace.

samuk:


You don't actually have the Roupell's Official papers but the book that was written after 1897 that cites the report. No problem, I will look elsewhere for the 1897 report.

Since no one was able to meet the $2000 challenge, it's now off the table. Cheers.

No one, I mean no one is interested in your $2K. Spend it on getting a better education.
And the book I extracted it from was written in 1897.

samuk:


I made a simple request for the written accounts of Benin history from 1475 to 1897. If you can't provide any, say so, no beating around the Bush. All the screenshot you have provided so far were all written after 1897. No need to fight over it. Cheers.

Hell O Hell.

Roupell's Official papers has quoted in the screenshot were written in 1897.

samuk:


What you screenshot is not Roupell's work as requested by gregyboy, nice try.

Shake my damn head.
The screenshots are in response to his post about finding the starting point of literatures on Bini history. I did not upload them as Roupell's papers.

Dude, if you had $2000 then you will be able to afford a massive quantity of copies of archival data on Bini right from 1897 till date. In fact you'll be an authority on Bini history and your chiefs will come to you for consultations on matters of history.

Why not spend that your money on Engu, Ibadan & British archives? It will do you a lot of good rather than jumping up & down the pages of NL for knowledge from people with zero knowledge to share in return.

Gregboy

samuk:


The reason OgboAto is reluctant to site the book he got the screenshot from is because that is not Roupell's work but the criticism of it by someone else.

If he had the actual Roupell's book, he would have cited it already

You can now see the inconveniences in the various accounts, from Eweka, Oranmiyan back to Ekaladerhan.

If Oduduwa is not a mythical figure, his origin is also fraught in inconsistencies.

You are very difficult to do with yet you nor sabi anything. You're an airhead yet you rabble-rouse a lot.

If you be person wey dey calm down you would know that Roupell did not write or publish a book but he interviewed locals, wrote what he got from them verbatim & sent them to the British government. He did this for Bini first & at later points, certain Yoruba towns like Akure. I got that screenshot from a book that quoted him. If you're so pressed for Roupell or free knowledge on the internet spend that your $2000 on getting archival data on Bini from Britain, Enugu & Ibadan archives.

gregyboy:
When was the earliest writing of benin-ife connection in contemporary time


When was it first mentioned from either both side what year and who mentioned it......



This can help us break down were the history began

This paper attempts to provide an overview of the works written on Bini history. Apart from Roupell's paper, it appears that the first work written on Bini was by Egharevba & his fellow Bini brothers much later.

gregyboy:


Can i see the Roupell's work

Roupell's papers are mostly reports he got from locals & they're in the archives at Enugu & Britain.

samuk:


If you read the screenshot by OgboAto, you will notice the inconsistency about how Benin got its name from Ibinu to the claim of Ile-Ibinu.

The account claimed Eweka was the one that came to Benin not Oranmiyan as currently being claimed.

Oral history could pose serious problems for those that are interested in real history devoid of myths and unsubstantiated claims. But Luckily for Benin history there are written eyewitness accounts to examine and interrogate our oral history.

Chief that account was given by your people to Roupell.

If you check other accounts in different periods, some said it was Oronmiyan, some said it was Ekalederhen.


Now fast forward to 1950s when you people began to change narratives, the accounts were not stable & you wonder why or what the problem is with Bini folks.

samuk:

We seem to be going round in circles without you citing your screenshot with the date it was published. Your screenshot also called into question, the claim that Benin got its name from Oranmiyan who called the land Ile-Ibinu

.

Why are you asking me to cite Roupell's work when you & other Bini folks have talked about it endlessly on this thread or did Mr. Roupell publish more than one Bini account? As for the Ile-Ibinu, it originated from you people. All the accounts Yoruba have ran with on Bini have been provided by the Bini & your Kings also showed validations of it. Let me give you a quick sample: there's the gist that Oba Bini are not to enter ife except when dead, your previous king validated this by staying in Modakeke when he attended Yoruba Oba meetings in colonial times. Now your new King when he visited Ife, I was at the family compound meeting when message reached from the palace that the elders needed to leave. Your king stayed along Ondo road & didn't come in the entire time until certain chiefs went to get him & he stopped at Oranmiyan's shrine [I nor dey there so I do not know what they did there] & used the route along Oranmiyan's settlement into Ife. Exactly the same way your King did when he came to Ife during Adesoji Aderemi's time.

Note that it was not Yoruba that asked both Kings to come & neither was it Yoruba who asked him to observe the tradition of staying outside of Ife. I went to the palace the day this king your present king visited & he didn't just visit, he also observed certain rites inside the palace. He could have just said no to all of these things & made his visit a strict 'Ooni hollaring' visit & left. My whole point is, na una done cause these things, Yoruba nor get any prerogative to ask or force you or your kings to these things but you say it and do it.

Finally I was surprised that a lot of Ife both educated & non-educated were aware of the revisionisms coming from Bini and everyone was surprised that 1. The Bini king came & that 2. He performed rites & 3. He wasn't in a rush to greet and leave but visited places for sight seeing [no rites were done & I guess he just wanted to see things]. This one thing was what took the revisionism out of the minds of many Ife people. In fact your Oba brought about 3 Hiace [hummer bus] load of Bini girls dressed in beads & red wrappers mostly fair in complexion. I nor know if they were his wives, daughters, relatives or just people but that also raised curiosity of those who wanted to have Bini chicks.

Like I said before oral history is fraught with inconsistencies, that is the reason I am interested in eyewitness written accounts of any period being discussed.

I will not go into the debate of the history of christianity with you, the bible itself is filled with Jewish history being presented in the name of christianity.

Being a Christian means to be like Christ. Christ was a jew and practiced the Jewish tradition and culture. The bible is filled with Jewish history and many aspects of Jewish culture.

Jesus & his guys did not organize a religion with rituals. It was the Romans who started the idea of churches, rituals, trinity, cross deification & all of the ideologies of what we call Christianity today. All of the Churches in the Bible that Paul wrote to were Roman/Greek churches. Jesus himself did not start an organized religion & neither did his disciples, the Romans started it.

samuk:


You already know the history of Egharevba and the circumstances he wrote the first edition of his book. Since then there have been numerous revisions.

Unless Benin people wake up and start taking their history serious by examining the wealth of materials available to them and start to write their history themselves pointing out the distortions currently being made by so called scholars, a time will come Benin children will be learning Benin history from the Yoruba revisionist versions.

How can someone point to a Benin artworks depicting a Nupe/Igala man and change it to a messager from Ife when Ife is not mentioned anywhere in Benin history during that period.

The Yoruba examine the vast European writings on Benin, saw the mention of Ogane kingdom in the east and claim it's Ife in the West

The Benin people are now lethargic about their history and suffering from the fatigue of empire building, we seem not aware or are very unconcerned about the population ethnic politics that are being played around us using Benin history as tool.

The average Benin are far interested in travelling to Europe, America and other countries today than anything else, at this rate, we may soon become like the Jews who where all over Europe and America for millenniums without a homeland until 1949 because the arabs and muslims have taken over Israel in their absence. You can already see some frictions in areas of Edo lands that have sizeable populations of other tribes.

How can you be an Enogie and hardly resides in your domain, those they leased their lands to are now fighting them over their lands, just the way others are now fighting us over our history.

Today, the headquarter of christianity is the vertical in Rome and the Pope is the holiest Christian or man living but christianity didn't start in Rome and not by Europeans but by Jews in Jerusalem.

How did the Europeans manage to take over christianity and turned it to their private property, show me any jew that has been Pope for almost two thousand years of Catholic/Christian history.

My guy, Yoruba did not claim you. It has been you people claiming Yoruba. A foreign author has provided a chronology of your claims of Yoruba & then sudden rigmaroles with ever changing stories of who Ekalederhen was and what he actually did. It has been you people who have been unstable forever. It was not Yoruba that forced your king to tell them things about his Ife origin & it was not Yoruba that forced your king to attend Yoruba Oba meetings & it wss not Yoruba that forced your Oba to take white researchers into the palace & talk them into how he used to say prayers for himself & Yoruba kings. Na una start am. Yoruba barely knew about Bini stories until your people began telling colonialists all sorts. Even Samuel Johnson who published way earlier than any Bini man had little knowledge of Bini story. Yoruba is not your problem, you are your own problem.

P.S: the Jews did not start Christianity, Romans [who were Europeans] designed, structured, defined, started & spread Christianity. Christianity is of European origins & an European religion.

samuk:


Why not cite the title of the book you screenshot and the year published for all to see.

Anybody can claim anything, that's why a specifically request for a publication between 1475 to 1897.

I could have requested for exact 400 years starting from 1475 to 1875, but decided to make it even easier by extending it to 1897, the year the old Benin empire came to an end.

Don't you find it odd that we are struggling to find a publication on Benin and Ife connection in the late 1890s?

Considering the importance of such relationships, there would have been numerous mention of it in the various Europeans accounts throughout the 1475 to 1897.

As of today the origin of Oduduwa have various versions with those that support them and those that disagree with them.

1. Oduduwa Benin origin through Ekaladerhan.

2. Oduduwa mecca origin

3. Oduduwa Ife origin

And other versions and myths.

One thing that has remained undisputed so far is there were no mention of these names in Benin written history for the first four hundred years.

You want me to cite the Roupell's book in which that was stated?
There's no difficulty in finding records between your time frame with such details. It is difficult because you won'r read.

samuk:


The screenshot you presented without citing the date of publication actually questioned the Benin Oba Ife origin narrative at the very bottom but you cut that bit out.

The Yoruba don't agree on one source of origin for Oduduwa, you guys should be working to reconcile the various inconsistent Yoruba versions of Oduduwa origin rather than spending more of your time discussing and distorting Benin history.

It clearly states that it was Roupell's account.
It didn't question anything at the bottom but if you want to see the bottom then I got you.

Gregboy

Your friend needs to calm down with the aggression and the dates he's throwing around.
Several accounts published before his 1920 claims show records of your own people talking about Ife monarch origins through Oranmiyan, Eweka or Ekalederhen.

Here's a screenshot of Roupell's account of Bini & since your limit date is 1897, what date was Roupell's account published again? And there's more where that came from, just hang on.

P.S: I have to go back to read each of the accounts again in my library so it may take some time to post more. However, I won't do the hardwork you both should be doing and I'll limit my effort. You're the Bini and should be scouring the internet and libraries for your own records.

TAO11:


Not minding your self-deluding repitition that you've not being humiliated already (on your moronic "1487 to 1897" challenge), are you now admitting that the Obas of Benin Kingdom all insist on a Ife-Benin connection?

What you're pretending not to understand is the implication of your claim of 'no-connection':

All your Obas insist on a connection, but you insist otherwise. The question to you which you must then answer which you're obviously afraid of answering thus remains:

What makes you think that all the Obas of Benin Kingdom are all liars, betrayers, cheats, deceivers, traitors, renegades, snakes, and mordern Judas with a faulty sense of dignity who sold you all for a miserable price by stooping low to lick Oonis' boots for cheap political gains??

Having said that: In the course of the history of Benin Kingdom, the Obas of Benin have so far made two general accounts of the Ife-Benin connection known, namely:

(1) The classical Benin account which simply states that Ife founded Benin kingdom and its present dynasty ---- thus agreeing perfectly with the ancient Ife account which may also be seen in the 1897-completed work of S. Johnson.

I am not sure which Yoruba came up with the Ife-Benin connection in the 1920s. Anyways, anything that makes you sleep at night is allowed.

(2) The modern Benin account which chips in a certain Ekaladerhan and makes him one and the same person as Oduduwa.

Although historians have debunked and trashed the modern Benin account about Ekaladerhan (Bondarenko, 2003:67-68), both Benin accounts, however, agree that there is an Ife-Benin Ife connection.

So, I am patiently waiting for your answer on the bolded.

That guy is poorly read. If he was well read, he would know that the European accounts of the 1487 to 1897 he seems to have so much confidence in is filled with records of Europeans writing that the Bini people said to different explorers that their monarch was from Ife. The number of European accounts rehashing the Ife origins of their monarch as told by the Bini is larger than the few accounts that spoke of different origins. When I find the European paper that regards the Ekhaledehn story as nonsense, I'll share.

gregyboy:




See who is talking, yorubas history is full of revisionism

In one part youre correct please do you know how i can Double quote your writeup to explain my point accordingly

We're not in a contest of who revises the most, bro. I was just trying to tell you how Ife was brought into Bini history by your own selves.

As for quote put the whatever you want to quote in between: [quote][/quote]
Make sure the text is between the ] [

gregyboy:




See who is talking, yorubas history is full of revisionism

In one part youre correct please do you know how i can Double quote your writeup to explain my point accordingly

We're not in a contest of who revises the most, bro. I was just trying to tell you how Ife was brought into Bini history by your own selves.

As for quote put the whatever you want to quote in between:

gregyboy:


And he also didnt conclude ife had brought the artwork to benin instead he disagreed on the benin narrative

Do you mean the gist surrounding ife in benin



We were never influenced by ife in anyway if someone say our oba came from owo it will look more presentable than ife


If benins could influence ekiti which is the closet neighbor to ife i dont see why they couldn't maintain a relationship the Portuguese couldn't see and write something about

He did not give any conclusions. This is why the paper is regarded as speculative. The point however is that he questioned Bini's stories.

Are you even aware of the fact that ever since the Europeans began interacting with Bini since the 15th/16th century, it was the Bini who have told the Europeans they've come from Ife at different points?

Note that I did not say Portuguese, I said Europeans because after Portuguese, the British, Dutch, French & all sailors of different European nationalities visited and if you compare the accounts you'll see that the Bini themselves told the European their monarch & art had ties with Ife.

When colonial administration was put in place, the colonialists gathered native history to help them establish NA system. What your own people told the British then was that their monarch [and art] originated from Ife. This fact was reflected by your monarch in attending meetings of Yoruba kings; & one of them bringing a part of his dead father to Ife to make his enthronement known. It was what informed the grouping of Bini with Yoruba in Western region in the constitutional conferences. All of these & many other things your own people said & did was what informed grouping Bini with Yorubaland in the constitutional conferences.

When History became a thing in Nigeria, it was still your own people who told researchers at the time that you had ties with Ife. They told local & foreign researchers the same thong. The Yoruba/Ife only knew little about the whole Oranmiyan/Ogiamen issue & the Iguega gist. It was your own people who put all of that in the public NOT IFE/Yoruba people.

It was your own people who set off the gists about being connected to Ife & after the damage has been done, you all want to change story. This is why world over, scholars have regarded your new change of story has revisionism & not one scholar has thought of it as worthy of being taken seriously, not even scholars of Bini origins & there are a lot of them. And you'll be surprised that the first time your Ekhalederhan was published was in the 1970s & it has at different points continued to change with one Ekhalederhen account being different from the other.

The point here is, Bini started the whole thing. We were far away in the hinterlands when you were telling Europeans about Uhe at Ughoton port

gregyboy:



You're simply misinterpreting what he said deliberately


However what he meant was his intention was to shed light on the fact that benin account insisted the artworks came from ife....
He criticized that idea ife artwork came from ife and he wasnt a tribalist who quickly jumb
To the offer.....

Even i was shocked to read about this criticism coming from a Yoruba man.........


When we see the truth we should say it regardless of who we identify with



There was no oranmiyan in benin

Even when the oba his insisting there is but the truth is slaping them at thier face



Again no matter how convincing a scholar could have written he will always leave room for doubts by other writers

A civil response to my brash post? That was mature, I give it to you. I'll edit the expletives in my previous post. Note that, I reacted that way because of your dispositions in previous encounters. So apologies for the insults.

As for your response, you are the one who is misinterpreting. In history, when so much has been written about a subject that it seems over-flogged, there's usually a speculative angle meant to find gaps & raise a ? mark to indicate there's still something left out. This was what Professor Lawal did in that paper. He did not run with what Bini said about their art originating in Ife because he wanted the Bini to fix an error in their timeline of events & claims. If you look at the paper again, you'll see that he didn't necessarily say Bini art was homegrown either.

I won't lie to you, I personally place a question mark on the gist surrounding's presence in Benin.

gregyboy:


Nope i have posted it before i wouldn't do that again


If i happened to come across it again

Contrary to your falsehood or ignorance, it is a journal article & not a book.
Here's the reference: Lawal, Babatunde , The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities, The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2, 1977, pp. 193-216

The key thing in the journal title is 'Problems & Possibilities', meaning the content is not out to present facts but possibly create a new vista of study. Can you people not read & analyse? What exactly is wrong with you people & what school did you go to? This entire paper hovers around the space of Speculative History yet you're here bandying it as a 'New Testament'. For better understanding, see image 1

All of what Babatunde Lawal wrote in that page & the following are speculative [I truly hope you know what that means]. An extant repository of works have suggested & argued the Ife-Bini links in art and what B. Lawal did was an attempt to look for a gap. He did not necessarily dispute the widely agreed theory of Ife's influence on Bini art but sought for a re-adjustment in chronology in Bini history because the Bini themselves kept saying their art came from Ife with not much evidence to back it up - see image 2.

P.S: You a Benin man had to resort to the work of a Yoruba man. Now when we say the Benin are nothing without the Yoruba, you'll begin to bleat all over the place like a fxking Hot goat. All of you Bini, from your monarch to the least person are attached to the nut-sack of the Yoruba for every knowledge & relevance you have and we can see that in this thread

gregyboy:




I had posted several in my previous comments i dont have the time to do that again

Scholars have debunked the origin of benin artwork from ife and had agree nupe artwork resembles the ife-artworks.......


The reason scholars used to trace Beni-ife artwork was the fact they believe benin and ife had a connection but that has been proved otherwise

You have?
Oya please mention just one so I can read-up.
Please?

gregyboy:



You should probably say nupe artwork is the closest to yoruba artwork not benin

Learn to read books ife-benin link holds ni ground anymore by scholars

I beg you in the name of everything you believe in, please cite 5 peer reviewed journal articles discussing zero links between Ife-Bini arts. Please

LegendHero:


Have you seen any country that is giving food to her enemies during a war? Do you think war is chicken and salad?

During the USA civil war, the union army laid a blockade against the rebels and the rebels were only able to survive because the south is fertile for land. But yet they still suffered some casualties.

You Igbos like hitting on the wrong person. Instead of you to blame the foolish Ojukwu that went to war without the required logistics and means to procure food for his people. You’re here blaming your enemy for not showing you love during the war.

Yes Awolowo exterminated you guys because he justified the saying of all is fair in war. If you like wail from now till eternity, it doesn’t diminish the late Awo’s glory and his impact on the sands of time.

If you need any sympathy for your loss in the war, you will get NONE from the Yorubas. So grow up and stop all this emotional bullsh*t about Awo not giving you food.

They're generally emotional & stupid

davidnazee:


Lol.. still grabbing at anything Benin abi..
Its on record that one of Benin major trade was in clothing.. Benin was renown for clothing trade not Ijebu..
Its also on record that Ihebu was temprarily subjugated by Mighty Benin Kingdom.

LOL what cloth?
As at 1890s Bini people were mostly naked. Did you sell of all your rags in that part of Nigeria to waltz around naked till your Yoruba king clothes you?


TAO11

RamessesIV:
Am not entirely incorrect if I go by egyptian history,egyptian culture went uninterrupted till hellenistic plotemic period where hellinistic culture and knowledge spread in greek city of alexandria,even at that Egyptian culture was still with the native population as plotemies took in Egyptian culture,there was alot of egyptian arts during plotemic and early roman period,Egypt large monument were already in decline for centuries due to environmental and political issues affecting egypt before Greeks or romans came,egypt never lost their population demograph,hence why plotemies enlisted egyptians in their armies,and roman soldiers were always ending riots,egypt was the food basket of the roman empire and one of the most populated and "settled places with cities" In the ancient world,Egyptian indigenous culture went into decline due to spread of Christianity and continued in a mixed greek christian coptic culture and ended with Arab conquest,and present day egypt is "Arab" the only remnance of ancient egypt in modern Egyptian culture today is the "coptic language" and there wasn't a forced migration out,conquest doesn't lead to depopulation,and there was never a record of large scale famine,enslavement of the native population,or large scale genocide to have warranted an exodus,pheonicians went arab,persia went hellinistic and muslim persia thanks to greek and arab conquest

Post-Roman Egypt.
However, the process of the cleavage began much earlier than the Christians & Arabs.
I agree the present 'Egyptians' are Arabs.

TAO11:


One day we will read here on Nairaland that the autopsy report on some Bini corpse shows bigotry to be the cause of their death.

Just watch out!

LOOOOOL
The hate is deep rooted in them.
I have a research paper that details what appears to be a continuous shift in the Bini-centric narrative of the Ife-Bini connections. The narrative had changed several times that the author declared it as nonsense, I died .

RamessesIV:
Thanks for this,I didn't take his word per say,just unlike the benins[b] i have never heard of ife bronze culture in modern times,I was just wondering why it didn't survive till modern times(or if it did and I am unaware of then is my bad)
[/b]
Was it due to loss of power of ife

Famine,disease,war

Colonization

Christianity and rise of islam

Take example we know for sure egyptian culture when to decline not due to invasion or population change as widely claimed,but first spread of christianity before it was finally killed out by arab conquest.

I'll begin with the second part I emboldened. The factor you stated as the cause of the gap between the Old & New Egypt is not only incorrect but an outright oversimplification of a historical process that took a long time.

The Egyptians were conquered & reconquered by several groups starting with the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Arabs, to the several Berber tribes & Mamluks, to the Ottomans & finally the British. However, the Greek & Roman invasions were recorded to have forced migration of Egyptians into Mid-East, Sahara belt & the West of North Africa for instance thereby leaving a gap between the monuments/arts from pre-historic times and the post-Rome Egypt. The gist is, at the time the Arabs and British got there, the gap between Old & New Egypt had already been created.

For the first emboldened line, the Ife made art works in Stones, Clay, Bronze & Iron. Several of the production sites have been discovered and written about extensively by archeologists, many who made their entire careers from studies on Ile-Ife.

I have attempted to provide a snapshot of some of the studies discussing production sites of some of these works in Ile-Ife. However, there are compounds in Ile-Ife today whose Oriki describe their exploits in Stone working, Iron working, Bronze working & Bead Industry. For instance, Hon Ajilesoro, a member of the HOR, is from Obalufon house but his name describes his ancestors' role in bead making industry - their oriki explores full gist. In fact, the name 'Ajilesoro' is derived from a process of bead making.

Anyway, a few of these compounds still hold on to & operate their ancestral professions today particularly in Bronze & Iron working today using the original sites they began from in pre-historic times. Be that as it may, there appears to be a gap between the many monuments from Ife & the Ife of today [like the Egyptian monuments & the Egyptians of today] and this is due to shifts in the items of value; each Ooni from the time past seemed to have a preference for certain professions which they served as patrons for; & the wars with Modakeke leading to the expulsion of Ife for about two consecutive times leading to the migration of Ife to Isoya, Oke Igbo, Ifewara, Ifetedo where a good number refused to return for fear of the war reoccurring. For instance, Ooni Obalufon sponsored Bronze industry; Ooni Lajamisan sponsored bead industry; Ooni Lafogido sponsored stone industry; and Ooni Okiti heavily promoted Iron industry. This state backing had effected on the line of profession and item of trade the people pursued thereby causing a shift in continuity of these things. Furthermore, if you've read Wydham's account of his visit to Ife, he saw so many monuments/artifacts abandoned and many carted of by the Modakeke during the wars.

Conversely, if you look at Bini, you'll find the Bronze and Bead works in that region appear to have been continuously sponsored by every of their Kings. This long term stability created some time of preservation of profession and continuity.

davidnazee:



How many bronze casting sites or pits were discovered in Ife? was any ancient bronze casting sites found in Ife?

LOL several too numerous to count.
However, to continue to give the thread a feel of claims based in research [as Lady TAO has strictly been doing], I provided screenshots of the sites where some of the old arts were made but your brother Samluk or whatever ignored it all together.

davidnazee:


You are funny, and probably not smart.
you had earlier described some whitemen as racist because they claimed the works of Africans were made by ancient europeans but now accept the theory of a white man who seek to degrade an African civilization and reject the eye witness accounts of other white men who praised benin and described it as a civilized and well organized beautiful city.

Well there are multiple accounts written about Benin that says Benin was an organized and well planned city, and many Europeans lived in Benin and never wrote about what u just mentioned above.. U can out of jealousy quickly accept the racist accounts that suits ur purpose.

1. It seems the inability to sensibly approach & react to issues is a quality naturally missing in the Bini. You couldn't see the post about European in the context of hamitic hypothesis and you also couldn't separate it from accounts localized to Africa? To help your slow mind, me writing to appropriate your fine clothes as mine is different from me writing to generally describe your wardrobe.

2. I'll give you this offer, provide screenshots of European accounts describing the broad streets and lamps of Bini and I'll provide you with accounts detailing the shabbiness, dilapidated, corrosive, disorganized and run-down plan of Bini. And the bonus, for each account you post, I'll reply with two accounts.

I am not jealous, it is in the past & what is there to be jealous of a 2 by 2 kingdom confined to the mercy of the Ijaw people in Edo state?
I just want to put an end to the mouth to mouth regurgitation of just one single account among you Bini people. Please take the offer, it might just be an opportunity for you to impress on the general public that Bini was a beauty to behold not a land of endless murder with rotten bodies & human bones lying across the streets.

TAO11:


Inferiority complex has eaten deep into that boy. I think some Yorubas have shown him hell in the past.

He will be gladly willing to concede (even without any evidence) that the Ogane (whom Benin Kings consider to be some kind of god) is anyone else but not the Ooni.

He believes that the following scholars hate him and his Benin heritage so much --- Scholars who have examined the European writtings to conclude that the Ogane was none but the Ooni of Ife:

Bradbury
Stoll
Roth
Marquart
Talbott
R. Smith
R. Horton
Obayemi
Schurhammer
P. Marti
Mauny
Akinjogbin
F. Willett
Adediran
R. Law
Akintoye
Bondarenko

LOL.

Ontop of his complex, he's an illiterate.
I doubt if he has read one line from any of the scholars you've listed.

samuk:


A simple questions was asked about evidence to support the claim that Ife Bronzes were made in Ife and not brought by the people you claimed came from Egypt or Macca to colonised the people and land.

You have failed to produce any credible evidence to support the claims that the Bronzes dug up in Ife were made there by Ife people, you are asking me to provide evidence that Benin written history is 500 years older than Ife history that started in 1920.

Benin tell real history whilst you guys copy and paste stories that were written in 20th century.

If Benin tell you that they produce 20ft iron poles that houses oil lamps to light up the Palace and the square around the Palace 400 years ago, a precursor to modern Street lights and Benin being amongst the first few cities in world with semblance of Street lights, we back it up with an independent eyewitness written accounts that was written in that period, not some 1960 or 1980 fabrications.

You are not very smart. It is common knowledge that no one came from Mecca. The analysis and basis for all of those nonsense has been analyzed in journal articles, if only you'll read. It has been established no one migrated from Mecca/Sudan/Egypt. In addition, the production sites and tools of Ife arts have been uncovered and detailed in studies. Why are you getting involved in issues beyond your academic level? See the first two attached images.

Secondly, you're only deluding yourself with the street lamp fables that many of you vomit into each other's mouths. Bini was a place of filth and disgust to the Europeans. It was a run down place of slavery & endless ritual murders where decapitated human bodies and bones littered the streets in hundreds. You should be thankful for the punitive expedition, else your ancestors would have probably been murdered as votive to your deities. I've attached just two pages describing Bini's barbarity and dilapidated town but there's more if you want the truth about your town.

samuk:


The book you provided was written in 1970, the page you requested I should read, referenced another book that was written in 1967.

Both your 1970 and 1967 authors are strainously trying to situate the Kingdom of Ogane in Ife.

The Portuguese who recorded the account, said the kingdom was east of Benin City, is Ife east of Benin City, the answer is no because Ife is West of Benin City.

The Portuguese writer stated that the distance of the Ogane kingdom from Benin City is 900 miles, is Ife 900 miles from Benin, the answer is no because Ife is only 171 miles from Benin City.

The Portuguese recorded the travelling time to be 20 months journey, Benin to Ife is not a 20 months journey because Benin was doing daily journeys from Benin to Lagos in 1603.

Others reasons why Ogane couldn't be Ife.

1. There is nothing in Yoruba/Ife history that say Ife used to be called Oghene.

2. Between 1475 to 1897 of recorded and written documentation of Benin history, there is not a single mention of Ife, Ooni, Oduduwa, Oranmiyan in Benin history.

Every other tribes and people encountered between 1475 and 1897 are all recorded in Benin history. People of Lagos, Akure, Ekiti, Owo, Agbor etc were all recorded but not a single thing about Ife.

If Benin had any relationship with Ife, there is no way that it wouldn't have been recorded for over 500 years of constant recording and documentation of Benin history by various Europeans.

You just can't wake up 500 years later, in 1967 or 1970 and claim Ogane is Ife, even though the description of Ogane and other evidences doesn't support the location of Ife. That is not history but wishful thinking of the authors.

What stops someone else from waking up tomorrow and claim the Ogane kingdom to be Kano or Sokoto. I hope you can now see why the need to adhere to credible evidence is very important in making any claim.

The evidences doesn't support Ife to be the kingdom of Ogane that was recorded in Benin around 1475.

You also can't make the spurious claim of Benin Bronze being influenced by Ife when there are no evidence to suggest that those Bronzes dug up in Ife were made in Ife and by Ife people.

The only people that this sort of history will make sense to are the Yorubas who only started recording Ife history from 1920.

Everyday since then, more and more fabrications are being authored and written to cover up for the 500 years gab between Benin history and Ife history.

You have not provided any non-material evidences to dispute your Kings have not been facing the East to say prayers for the Ooni.

You have not provided any material evidences to dispute the cross recorded by the Portuguese was not the same excavated in Ile-Ife.

You have not provided any scientific evidence showing any dated artifact to indicate that the periods of Bini arts were not post-Ife arts and as such, further refuting all of the content in the screen shot.

I am not interested in your own conjectures and what you think. You're not that educated and neither have you conducted, written and published any research article in your life - as such, your opinions are inconsequential here. Provide peer reviewed articles to augment each of your itemized claims.

Thank you.