RamessesIV:
of course they use white actors cause white people do the movies,anyways I don't have the time for afrocentric/eurocentric debate about egypt and other people's history as it wasn't the point of my post.

Am well aware of the eurocentric and "hamitic hyothesis" by early Early white historians,what I am referring to is claims made[b] by nigerians and even afrocentrist themself,some claim it was knowledge from mecca,some claim it was knowledge from connection with egypt[/b] so as you can see this isn't a case of white-washed but claims made by indeginous yoruba people.

samuk:


The reason for what you described above was possible was because of the lack of a written and documented history of the period and people that made the Bronze artworks.

If there were written documents of eyewitnesses that record the Bronzes being made in Ife by Ife people, it would have been very difficult for anyone to ascribed them to a different culture.

There is absolutely no doubt about the Benin Bronzes and the people that made them.

Whatever is written by Yoruba biased scholars later to correct whatever was previously written about the Ife Bronze by white racist are still subjective and biased narratives of the writer.

The fact that the Bronzes were dug up in Ife doesn't mean that they were made there and they weren't brought there from somewhere else.

samuk:


Why should I doubt it, was I there 6oo years ago to know what the practice was?.

The Portuguese gave a detailed account of what he claimed he was told by a Benin informant, and gave a description of the location of the Oghene kingdom.

[s]That kingdom cannot be Ife because of the description and account of the Portuguese. If the evidence points the Oghene kingdom to Asaba, Warri or Kogi and there is concrete prove for it, I will not only accept it, but will equally embrace it as a shared common history between Benin and those places.

Even if it can be proven that Benin accept crosses from another rulers, it doesn't affect the numerous other achievements recorded by the Benin empire.

In Europe, the history of Greece and Rome are celebrated as a shared common history amongst the European, nothing to be ashamed or feel inferior about.[/s]

samuk:


You asked a very good question. I can tell you now that they will not be able to provide an answer that referenced the period in question because there is simply no written records of that period. What you will get as answer is going to be a biased opinion or narrative.

There is no written record of an eyewitness account of Ife society before 1900.

What you will get is a recently written fabrications presented as scholarly work. A modern biased interpretations of what happened centuries ago by those who were not eyewitness.

Apart from the Bronze arts being dug up in Ife, there is simply no recorded of artistic history that says they were made in Ife or Ife even had the tradition of Bronze casting. Benin could have tailor made those Bronzes for whoever took them there.

Don't be surprised if they come back with a Benin source or reference Benin for their answer.

Another example that they parrot is Ogane being Ife.

In about 1475 a Portuguese that visited Benin recorded that he was told by a Benin resident and informat that there was another great kingdom that had relationship with Benin.

1. This kingdom was to the east of Benin

2. This Ogane kingdom was a distance of 250 leagues or 900 miles

3. The travelling time from Benin to this kingdom of Ogane was 20 moon or 20 months or 1 year 8 months.

Despite the fact that none of the above support Ife as being the location, they still point to some fictitious recent scholars that claim this kingdom is Ife.

For the benefits of doubt.

1. Ife is west of Benin not east as described by the Portuguese who recorded the conversion.

2. Ife is 171 miles from Benin, not 900 miles as recorded by the Portuguese.

3. There was no way the journey from Benin to Ife would have taken 20 months because another European recorded in 1603 that Benin was despatching 2 messagers every day from Benin military camp in Lagos to Benin City. Lagos to Benin is a distance of 201 miles, more than the distance from Benin to Ife.

So, you have to be very wary and mindful when you are given the so called scholarly works that were not written during the period in time as answer to your question.

Anybody can write some nonsense today and tell you that his nonsense opinion is the answer to what happened in 1535AD.

All they often do to disguise their lies and confused the less informed is simply tag their lies and personal opinions as archeological and anthropological findings.

If any Benin person tells you that they colonised Lagos as far back as 1603, demand for a written
independent eyewitness evidence or account that was written in 1603, don't accept or settle for anything written later than 1603. Don't accept historical opinions of some historians written in 1975.

Likewise, if any Yoruba person makes an historical claim, demand a written eyewitness accounts of the time and period in question, don't accept what may be an opinion of someone which is written centuries after the event.

How can someone accurately write about the events of 1600s, 1700s in 1984 and call it the absolute truth.

Anybody can write anything to support their history and put others down, which is why it's very important to demand for eyewitness accounts not opinions of those that were not there masquerading as scholars.

samuk:


I just wanted to point out that history could be very subjective and biased without concrete eyewitness collaborative evidence from the times and periods in discussion.

Imagine if a Yoruba historian was to write about the Nigeria civil war today, the historian will do everything possible to make the Yoruba and Awolowo look good.

Same way an Igbo historian will absorb the Igbo of any blame and make Ojukwu look good.

So, anyone reading both versions should ask for independent eyewitness accounts, that were written before and during the war. These eyewitness accounts will gives the reader an insight into the events leading to the war and what happened during the war.

[b]Anything outside of these eyewitness accounts could become the subjective and biased opinion of the write[/b]r.

RamessesIV:
Thanks

I would love to seek your opinion since you have a vast knowledge and lots of resources on yoruba culture and i can trust you'll provide answer backed by evidence and not bigotry

1.what do you think of the claims that the[b] ife arts are not indigenous to ife,i read somewhere that there is little proof that it was produced in ife rather was brought by Arabs or lost knowledge from egypt linking the semetic/hamitic theory of yoruba civilization,a yoruba-claimed historian on twitter said that the art works were "too sophisticated" to produced by yorubas judging by the level of architecture,metallurgy(whatever that means) hence it must have been gotten from connection probably trade or contact with foreigners hence "Arabs" or Egypt or,some others claim it was the Benin since Benin still have the culture and knowledge on how theirs were produced and ife do not[/b]

Am sorry to derail from the thread,but seeing that horse statue I thought i should ask,since you are one of the few here who tries to back up claims with evidence,and I would like the input of others also if they have necessary information. @macof

(And unlike also social medium nairaland has no "Dms',so thread would have to do).

samuk:


No, my ancestors were not the ones that were sacrificed, according to Yoruba history and historians, it was my ancestors that used to sacrificed your ancestors, the Ijebus to our gods.

Please read it again below.

Regarding "food", the historian Samuel Johnson made the following claim in his book:

"The origin of the Ijebus has been variously given ; one account makes them spring from the victims offered in sacrifice by the King of Benin to the god of the ocean, hence the term Ijebu from Ije-ibu, i.e., the food of the deep. The Ijebus themselves claim to have descended from Oba-nita, as they say of themselves, "Ogietiele, eru Obanita," i.e., Ogetiele, servants of Obanita. But who was this Oba-nita? Tradition says he also was a victim of sacrifice by the Olowu or King of Owu." - Samuel Johnson, The History of the Yorubas, pp. 18-19

A historian, Tunde Oduwobi, gives an interesting analysis of this ascription of servile origins to the Ijebu in his publication "Early Ìjèbú history: An analysis on demographic evolution and state formation" (2006). Oduwobi also notes in that article and in another article that, of course, the Ijebu had their own completely different traditions about their origins.

eldeens:


It's not of importance to know what capacity If you are not a Muslim. So forget it. Don't even bother replying because i am done here.

TAO11:


The word "Benin" and the word "Edo" are latter words too.

Their point is meaningless.

cc: babtoundey

eldeens:


If you don't respect and value your religion then I dont think you will respect or value others, at this point I will say practice yours and lemme do mine, and stay tf outta what dosent concern you.

eldeens:



And you cannot read or abi u don't know how to. Some people will never mind their business.

TAO11:


Yes! Lol

I asked for evidence to substantiate one of his grandiose claims about Benin Kingdom, and he replied along the lines of: [i]I can't provide you evidence and there is nothing you can do about that.[/I] Lol

I will modify this comment and provide his actual words if I find it.

TAO11:


True!!

He actually has nothing to offer. A[b]nd he was blatantly honest in admitting that[/b].

TAO11:


That guy you just quoted is the "most-stupidestest" liar from the Edo revisionist alliance party oo. lol.

He never completes a statement, has problems comprehending 2-line sentences, and has difficulty stringing words together.

I just need you to be aware of that.

TAO11:


I know right. But sometimes I feel their delusions need to be truncated. My bad. I think I need to choose my battles more carefully. There are bigger fishes to fry.

gregyboy:



Tell me more on this shit please

Again why did first arguing in the favour of benin and ife myth

davidnazee:


Another myth without evidence.
And your story just destroyed the belief that Oduduwa was the father of Yoruba race or reformer of Ife.

samuk:


You may be right, that's why we are now re-examining the whole story because it doesn't sound right and doesn't add up.

Unlike some Yoruba people here, we are ready to research and find the truth no matter where it leads.

The current history of Benin/Ife and Yoruba smells of politics and supremacy tussles.

That to us is not history. People deserve to know their history rather than fabrications and playing politics with it.

I smell conspiracy between Benin and Oyo monarchy against Ife.

All they need to say is Ooni is a descendant of a shrine keeper as recorded by the great Yoruba historian Johnson.

Oba of Benin becomes the most acknowledged senior son of Oranmiyan and Alaafin his junior brother. Or Ooni and Alaafin continue to fight themselves whilst Benin stays senior.

The way it stands, Oyo, Ife and Benin don't agree on who Oduduwa was. They all have their own versions which makes the own history ridiculous.

Some say Oduduwa is

1. Benin banished prince
2. He was from Mecca
3. Climbed down from sky with chains
4. Son of Ham that was driven out of Saudi Arabia

We can all come together to find the truth rather than see it as fight between Benin and Yoruba.

We believe the Benin/Ife connection as it currently stands is a fabrication.

samuk:


So Oyo and Ife doesn't even agree on Oduduwa origin.

TAO11:


Hello 'hanty'!!! Lol

I think you are replying to someone else under my comment. Let's be guided oo.


Moreover, I am still waiting for you address the points I outlined fir you yesterday in my last comment yesterday.

I am also still waiting for yoir apology whjch you promised.

(4) For God sake this came-from came-from repitition is the most nauseous thing I jave ever heard in recent times.

For the umpteenth time "... All who study the history of Ife and of the Yoruba people are now generally agreed that the great political changes which began in Ife in about the tenth century were indigenous in their origin, in their unfolding and in their dramatis personae. It is on the soil of Yorubaland that Oduduwa was born and raised; it is only in that soil that his roots can be found."

[b]Oduduwa was born and raised in Ife. How many times must I repeat this on this thread?
[/b]s

You all search for your Ekaladerhan in Ughoton graves. Gosh!

MetaPhysical:


That was assumed.

The first account of Nyffe appeared in relation to its Statehood and was passed on by Arabs in Massina (present day Mali). These Arabs were first to document history of the people of Sudan belt and produced maps of who was where in the belt.
They served as source of knowledge for the new Fulani States in Hausaland.

Before Sokoto sacked Hausa Kings Priest-Kings controlled City-States in the Sudan.

Crossing from about 1750 to 1880 rapid wars across the belt had transformed the landscape and put power in hands of Imperial-Kings. One of these was Oyo.

Oyo had surpassed Ife as central authority on Yoruba politics.

Arabs knew Yoruba as Nyffe and made the record of their roots in Canaan.

Sokoto which rose to power much later behind the Arab travellers knew Yoruba as Oyo.

In relating the history of Yoruba to Clapperton in Sokoto in 1824, Sultan Bello described the people, their history, their landscape and their political relationship with Muslims.

Clapperton returned in 1825 to tour from coast upward to desert and see the Niger.

He came in through Badagry. He visited Egba and Abeokuta.

Well Abeokuta was a resettlement....a city of refuge for the Egba, Owu, who were defeated in Yoruba political conflicts and were chased out of their original towns in hinterland.

These internal wars and others with external opponents was responsible for the quick emergence of Oyo as Yoruba State.

Sultan did not mention Nupe as a State. The history of Nyffe as a State and remnants of a Canaan stock is inconsistent with Nupe origin, which was an offshoot of Igala.

The old capital of Nupe was Raba. It was Fulani that relocated it to Bida.

Clapperton visited Raba but did not reconcile it with what he was told by Sultan a year before, as he did in recollection on his visit to Oyo.

In fact, he linked the grandeur of Statehood in Oyo with that of the King's palace in Mali and mused about their consistency in observing protocols.

So, the identity of Nyffe in old Mali continued as a tradition, changing reference but never loosing form and target through the periods of contacts from Arabs and Moors to Sultan of Sokoto and later Clapperton.

MetaPhysical:


Yes, I know without doubt this was all in reference to Ife.

What is striking is all the writers on Benin agreed the Oba has a superior....whether they associate it to Ife, to Nupe/Igala or to Ibo.

That thread was to highlight East and its possibilities in advantage back to Ife.

Catherine Acholonu emphasized Oduduwa as the Idu of creation, the divine-King, as told by narratives of Great Benin classics.


So even if I point to East and Ibo country as the superior monarch mentioned.....there are classical history there to loop and acknowledge superiority and pre-Eminence of Ife.


I believe even Thornton, or perharps Ryder mentioned that even the Northern Arabs, Ibn Batutta specifically, recognized Nyffe (Iffe/Ife) as most powerful and most recognized King-Priest of the region.

No account has ever said Ooni reported to a superior....unlike Benin which every chronicler indeed said was inferior to another king.
This is key!

davidnazee:


Please where is the picture of the burial sites or graves and what evidence is there that says it was Benin kings buried there?
Do you know that the same historians you quote also agrees that the institution of kingship in Benin is older than that of Ile-Ife or other Yoruba states.. so how can Ife be older or greater than Benin?
continue your bad work of revisionist, it doesn't change a thing or place Ife above Benin..

kayfra:
It is Ikpeazu. The Kerosene dispenser

emmabest2000:
I don't understand why sudden panic among people all over the world now

This same virus was in China from last year December till mid March , killed Chinese in thousands while many also recovered, If Chinese upon their population can fight and overpowered this virus, it means that any other countries can do it too ,
China is almost clear from the covid-19
Many cities in China don't wear masks while going out anymore.

It's not a death sentence

Sanchez01:

Asaba was still under the old Bendel when the likes of Hubert Ogunde graced our screens in the 80s. We shouldn't mince things and mumble everything here. Yorubas are the pioneers of Nollywood and it was led by highly educated folks among them whose goal was to showcase their culture.

Ogunde and a few educated Yoruba entertainers had been acting since 1945 before they digitalized their plays in the 80s. English Nollywood or what we call 'Igbo Nollywood' today didn't come until about 3 decades later, roughly.

The earliest Igbo actors who took opportunity of the industry were largely uneducated. Eucharia even mentioned this recently when she graced 'Your views' on TVC and it explains why unlettered actors like Mr. Ibu, who though came quite early was boxed into acting the village clown and along with other actors.

Although Hubert Ogunde's first screen movie was in 1979, his theatre group had been around since 1945. And note, Ogunde formed the first contemporary professional theatrical company in Nigeria.

To see who started what, do a simple Google check on the development of the Eastern region in '45 and Ogunde's theatre group in 45. No disrespect but this aspect of our history doesn't deserve to be twisted to suit any narrative.

Ogunde's TV Movies

AIYE - 1979
JAIYESIMI - 1980
AROPIN N’TENIA - 1982
AYANMO - 1989