₦airaland Forum

Image123:
Let's not get distracted here. Again, "The point i simply made was that he gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be."

Jesus mentioned that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE. He also mentioned to watch and to pray always i.e it ought to be as well. i hope you get the point and correlation as you attempt to go further.

You mentioned Abram gave a tithe of all...whereas what he tithed were from the spoils of war. He tithed only once... which was never from his income. Please where was it stated in the Bible that he gave a tithe of all? Please show us the Bible verse.


And by the way, who was tithing mandatory for that they ought to tithe? Wasn't it the Jews?

Gentiles were never under any obligation to tithe... either in the old or new testament.


Please show us where in the Bible Abram gave a tithe of all...as opposed to tithe of war spoils...

Image123:
Ask the Bible that recorded that he gave tithes of all. The point i simply made was that he gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be.



What is interesting is that you do not know. It is common knowledge that jews are descendants of Israel. Jacob and Abraham were not descendants of Israel were they? i would be gracious enough to enlighten you anyway.
Jews are (people of Judea). This name was properly applied to a member of the kingdom of Judah after the separation of the ten tribes. The term first makes its appearance just before the captivity of the ten tribes. 2Kings16:6. After the return, the word received a larger application.
Partly from the predominance of the members of the old kingdom of Judah among those who returned to Palestine, partly from the identification of Judah



Now you know that tithing precedes the law, GOOD of you, very good. Please don't go back again to assuming otherwise. Circumcision, burnt offerings and fruit offerings can be done by anyone for any reason. Nobody is hindered from doing so if you so desire. So stop condemning people for guilt tripping people that for any reason do them. Once you have purpose driven life, and a good purpose for that matter, i say FIRE ON. i clearly remember incidences when members of our little church have offered fruits to the church and no one batted an eyelid.

Please where in the Bible was it stated that Abram gave a tithe of all?


You also stated that the Bible mentioned we ought to tithe...now that would be disobedience if people don't tithe right?

Image123:
1. i can't say, his name is Abram. Why do you ask?

2. Yes, Abraham and Jacob for instance. Why?

3. Tithing was before the law.There was no instructions like the ones you recalled before the first recorded tithe. What is your point again?

1) So you mean that Abram giving a tithe of war spoils automatically means giving a tithe of all he had? Did he also tithe from his personal income?

2) So the Bible states Jacob and Abraham are not Jews? This is really interesting...

3) Circumcision, burnt offerings and fruit offerings also preceded the Law... What's the basis for not doing these but sticking to tithing?

Bear in mind that male circumcision is done these days on health grounds with no spiritual connotations...

Image123:
I'm a fellow man like you, not your oga. The Bible is written to all from God, it is not for any one tribe. There's no single verse in the Bible that says not to tithe.
The Bible is not 8verses but 66books. Inside it, we see a man give tithes of all.

1) The man who gave tithes "of all"... was he a Jew or a Gentile?

2) Was there any record of a non-Jew in the entire bible that gave tithes before, during or after the law

3) There are numerous instructions from God in addition to tithing such as;
a) Not shaving beards
b) Not wearing mixed clothing materials
c) Not planting two different kinds of seeds in the garden
d) Sewing tassels at the corners of one's garment...

What is the basis for accepting tithing but not adhering to these?

Image123:
Have you bothered to read the whole Bible instead? There are a whole lot of things not mentioned in Acts 15 which we do if we make Acts 15 the standard. Do you pray, fellowship with other believers or sing? Is there any place God said not to tithe with money? If tithe using money is not tithe, what then is the headache?

Oga... I have read the whole bible, and I have not seen anywhere it was stated that non-Jews tithed or were told to tithe. Can you show us any in your bible?

You also asked where God never required money as tithe.... now please read Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29 where instructions on tithing were clearly spelt out... was it agro-produce or money that was tithed?

Image123:
Any biblical example where tithing is frowned at, or rejected?

Have you read Acts 15 to find out if tithing applies to the gentiles too?

Can you also show us where God asked for tithes to be paid monetarily like the church is doing today?

Image123:
Your supposition is as worthless as the meaning. Jesus Christ said tithing ought to be done, QED.

Any biblical example of non-Jews that tithed?

Image123:
I'd take it you now know that Jesus said that tithing ought to be done?

Oh yes... tithing as the Jews did back then in line with the Mosaic Laws as outlined in Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29...


So were gentiles tithing too?

Do you have any examples in the old and new testament to show us where non-Jews tithed?

Image123:
So you agree that jews should tithe right? Good, because I am sure that Jesus said that it ought to be done. QED

Do you know that even the Jews do not tithe currently?

By the way, you haven't mentioned any non-Jew that gave tithes both in the old and new testament...

Image123:
Forget your excuses, Jesus Christ said it ought to be done. QED

And how was tithing done back then?

Can you also give an example of non-Jews that tithed?

Because I'm wondering how a law for the Jews alone now becomes necessary for non-Jews to follow... even after what transpired in Acts 15.

Image123:
^Don't be ridiculous. Jesus said it ought to be done. QED

Isn't the tithing Jesus made as a passing comment to the Pharisees what was practiced in line with Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29?

How exactly is tithing in church consistent with it?

I've also searched both the old and new testament... and I'm yet to see a non-Jew that tithed... For example, it was never stated anywhere that Job tithed... Do you know of any non-Jew that tithed?

I'm also yet to see where God instructed tithes to be given monetarily...

Dear OP, what you are writing here isn't new.

You're taking a Gnostic approach to interpreting the scriptures... looking for "hidden knowledge" where there is none...

CodeTemplar:
To honour God's prosperity covenant.

Did Job tithe before God prospered him?

enilove:
If there was no reason for the laws , God would not have given it.

Abraham tithed . Jesus also confirmed that it should be done, why would someone wants to abandoned it ?

God would have told someone like Prophet AYO Babalola not to pay and collect tithe , if it was a fraud or a wrong thing to do so .

Who was the Law given to? The Jews or the Gentiles?


Also, where did God ask for money to be given as tithe?

Can you show us a non-Jew either in the old or new testament that gave tithes?

Did Abraham give tithes on a monthly basis from his income or just once from the spoils of war?

If Prophet Ayo Babalola gave and collected tithes in a manner inconsistent with what was in the scriptures, will you go ahead and follow him to do so? God's word versus man's doctrines.

Ask yourself this question...Prophet Ayo Babalola is a follower of Jesus right? Was it on record anywhere that Jesus the Son of God asked for and collected tithes from His followers? Did the Apostles do so too? If they didn't, then where are these pastors and prophets getting their authority from to collect tithes monetarily?


Also do some research on how the Jews tithed...and whether the Jews are still tithing today.

enilove:
The Mosaic laws starts with the Ten commandments .
Are the ten commandments not relevant to the Christians because it was given to the Jews?

Before the 10 commandments were given...did man know what good and evil was? Let me give you a hint... killing a fellow human was a crime in Egypt because it was evil, Moses fled Egypt for his safety.

Anyways the 10 commandments does not include tithing...


Before the Law, there were men who walked uprightly with God...did they make reference to the 10 commandments before pleasing God?

Did Job observe the Mosaic Laws before his ways pleased God?

enilove:
Does it mean we should not follow the laws because Jesus came to fulfil it ?

Jesus says in the Bible that our righteousness should exceed those of the Pharisees and he upgraded some of the laws :

Matthew 5:18-22,27-28 KJV
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
[27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
[28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What did Matthew 5 v 18 say...

Till heaven and Earth pass...One jot or tittle shall not pass from the Law TILL ALL IS FULFILLED.


Now ask... Has Jesus fulfilled the LAW? Yes or No...

Bear in mind Jesus fulfilled the LAW via His death...and after His death, were the Apostles and Christians bound to observe the requirements of the LAW? Did they offer sacrifices? Did they give tithes and first fruits or burnt offerings? Did they offer lambs or turtledoves to God to sanctify their new born babies 8 days after birth? Did they sew tassels at the corner of their garments?

Are you living your life currently by the Mosaic Laws?... Just like the examples I gave in the previous paragraph? If no...why?



Another question to ask:

Who was the Mosaic Law given to obey? The Jews or the Gentiles?

3. Ancient Church councils favoured tithings of land and produce, e.g., the Councils of Tours, A.D. 567; the second Council of Macon, A.D. 585; the Council of Rouen, A.D. 650; of Nantes, A.D. 660; of Metz, .

4. Its first imperial enactment. (king of the Franks, A.D. 768-814, and Roman Emperor, A.D. 800-814) originated the enactment of tithes as a public law, and by his capitularies formally established the practice over the Roman Empire which his rule swayed. From this start it extended itself over Western Christendom; and it became general for a tenth to be paid to the Church.

5. Introduction of tithes into England. , king of Mercia, is credited with its assertion here, at the close of the eighth century. It spread over other divisions of Saxon England, until Ethelwulf made it a law for the whole English realm. It remained optional with those who were compelled to pay tithes to determine to what Church they should be devoted, until Innocent III. addressed to the Archbishop of Canterbury, A.D. 1200, a decretal requiring tithes to be paid to the clergy of the parish to which payees belonged. About this time also, tithes, which had originally been confined to those called praedial, or the fruits of the earth, was extended to every species of profit and to the wages of every kind of labour.

6. The great and small tithe. The great tithe was made upon the main products of. the soil, corn, hay, wood, &c.; the small on the less important growths. To the rector the great tithes of a parish are assigned, and to the vicar the small.

7. Tithes paid "in kind." These claim the tenth portion of the product itself (vers. 30-33). This is varied by a payment of an annual valuation; or an average taken over seven years; or by a composition, which, in a bulk sum, redeems the land from all future impost, rendering it henceforth "tithe flee."

(W. H. Jellie.)

http://biblehub.com/sermons/pub/the_history_of_tithes.htm


In summary, tithing was reintroduced to the Church ( Catholic Church ) in 567 AD...


The history of tithing in Pentecostal churches is even more embarrassing...

enilove:
I don't like to argue for arguments sake.

If tithing was resolved by the Apostles , where and when was it reintroduced in all the churches around the world ?

Are all the churches in Nigeria set up by man without God's direct instructions ? Why has the holy Spirit not reveal this to any of them including the great Prophet AYO Babalola ?

Lastly , Jesus told us that he did not come to abolish the laws.

Of course, Jesus did not come to abolish the law...but TO FULFILL THEM.

If Jesus has fulfilled the Law...are you under any obligation to obey what He has fulfilled?


And I hope you know the Mosaic Laws contains over 600 instructions to obey apart from tithes...

As for where tithing was reintroduced to the church...I'll put the story and source in subsequent posts...


You mentioned you don't argue...I'm not arguing with you, I'm asking you questions, do you have answers from the Bible on them?

I wanted to establish these:

1) God's definition of tithe is not money.

2) Only the Jews (Judaizers) i.e. Jewish farmers and Shepherds were mandated to tithe...

enilove:
If tithe is part of the laws , did acts 15 say ALL the laws ?

Yes, Acts 15 made reference to the entire Mosaic Laws... and not parts of it.

Did you read the Apostles response to the controversy? Did they admonish the early Christians to tithe?


You are not answering my questions.

1) Where did God instruct money to be given as tithes?

2) Were there non-Jews and Christians that gave tithes in the Bible?

enilove:
IT IS LIKE YOU WANT TO WRITE YOUR OWN BIBLE , IS THAT NOT SO?
WHO TOLD YOU TITHING WAS PART OF IT ?
WAS TITHING MENTIONED?

I DON'T ADD TO OR REMOVE FROM THE BIBLE. I SAY WHAT I READ AND I DON'T ASSUME.

Is tithing part of the Mosaic Laws?
Yes or No...


Was Acts 15 also talking of the Mosaic Laws? Yes or No...



It's nice to know that you do not assume or add to the Bible. You have not mentioned where God instructed tithes to be given monetarily.

I quoted Deuteronomy 14 v 24-26 to show you that tithe was never monetary to start with...so who is that person that knows more than God to ask for tithes monetarily?


Please also search the scriptures and show us any non-Jew that gave tithes...

enilove:
Because God did not mention tithes to be giving in monetary terms means the present Jews will not be paying tithes , isn't it ? If the Jews are paying tithes and more than 70% of them are salary earners , how do they pay it ? In monetary term.

Deuteronomy 14:25 KJV
Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

Tithing was not an issue with early Christians and Jews that was why it was never spoken for or against.

If the condition specified for eating from the tithe is applicable to you , then eat from it as the Lord instructed.

Deuteronomy 14:22-29

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

22 Thou shalt give the tithe of all the increase of thy seed, that cometh forth of the field year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God (in the place which he shall choose to cause his Name to dwell there) the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstborn of thy kine, and of thy sheep, that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it, because the place is far from thee, where the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name, when the Lord thy God shall bless thee,

25 Then shalt thou make it in money, and take the money in thine hand, and go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose.

26 And thou shalt bestow the money for whatsoever thine heart desireth: whether it be ox, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatsoever thine heart desireth: and shalt eat it there before the Lord thy God, and rejoice, both thou, and thine household.

27 And the Levite that is within thy gates, shalt thou not forsake: for he hath neither part nor inheritance with thee.

28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithes of thine increase of the same year, and lay it up within thy gates.

29 Then the Levite shall come, because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, and shall eat, and be filled, that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

THIS IS HOW GOD DEMANDED TITHES FROM THE ISRAELITES... I don't know where the church got its doctrine of monetary tithing which is contrary to God's instructions!

enilove:
Because God did not mention tithes to be giving in monetary terms means the present Jews will not be paying tithes , isn't it ? If the Jews are paying tithes and more than 70% of them are salary earners , how do they pay it ? In monetary term.

Deuteronomy 14:25 KJV
Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

Tithing was not an issue with early Christians and Jews that was why it was never spoken for or against.

If the condition specified for eating from the tithe is applicable to you , then eat from it as the Lord instructed.

You mentioned that tithing was not an issue with early Christians...

Do you recall the crises that rocked the early church with respect to obeying the Mosaic Laws ( of which mandatory tithing was part of) and how the Apostles resolved it through the help of the Holy Spirit in Acts 15?

Double post

enilove:
Because God did not mention tithes to be giving in monetary terms means the present Jews will not be paying tithes , isn't it ? If the Jews are paying tithes and more than 70% of them are salary earners , how do they pay it ? In monetary term.

Deuteronomy 14:25 KJV
Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

Tithing was not an issue with early Christians and Jews that was why it was never spoken for or against.

If the condition specified for eating from the tithe is applicable to you , then eat from it as the Lord instructed.

You just quoted and stopped at Deuteronomy 14 v 25.

After converting the tithe to money...what happens to the money when you arrive to the place where the Lord has chosen?


You also have not mentioned anything as to why eating of tithes as instructed by God isn't preached?

On a final note...are you aware that Jews do not tithe right now?

spongeisback:
Wow the deception. When did mint,anise and cumin which are spices become money?!

Thank you very much. This is one question I've been asking those defending this tithing stuff.

enilove:
The purpose of tithing is to appreciate God for His provisions for us.

Abraham was the first to tithe without the any specific law or instructions. After the Israelites got to the promised land God instructed the Israelites to continue in that act.

Since we are children of Abraham by faith , we should or are expected to appreciate God by giving tenth of our income to God as well.

Giving is part and parcel of the doctrines of the Gospel.

The truth is that we are expected to do more than giving of tithes like what Apostles practiced :

Acts 4:34-37 KJV
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
[35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
[36] And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
[37] Having land, sold it , and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.


IF DADDY FREEZE IS AGAINST TITHING , WHY HAD HE NOT SUGGESTED THIS FOR THE CHURCHES ?

You mentioned that since we are children of Abraham, we are expected to tithe as well...


1) Abraham tithed out of his discretion.

2) It is on record that Abraham tithed only once.

3) It is also on record that Abraham tithed out of the booty of war...and not his income...

4) Abraham was already blessed and prosperous before he tithed.

enilove:
A reasonable person doesn't abuse .

If you want to make your point , go ahead and make your point.

What about where Jesus told us that tithing is necessary ?

Matthew 23:23 KJV
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When God gave the Jews instructions on tithing in Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29, did God mention tithes to be given monetarily?


Also, can you give an example of any non-Jew or Christian that gave tithes in the Bible?


Lastly, Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29 clearly instructed tithers to eat from the tithe as well, so why isn't this preached as well?

I have a question.

How much do you need to know before concluding on the presence or absence of God?

Gggg102:
nothing shows intelligence is behind the cause. you are speculating.

is it based on science and observable reality of the universe? because scientifically speaking and as shown in the universe, there was no intelligence in the beginning then after intelligence came into existence. order is observed in the universe even when there are no intelligence behind it. e.g ice crystals, sand dunes... forces of nature are not intelligent yet they produce order.

even if intelligence is required, which by the way is not supported by science, outside the universe no law of logic applies(as you said yourself). so unintelligence could have caused intelligence.

either way, the odds are against you.

Is it logical to conclude unintelligence brings forth intelligence?

Are you certain of this or are you speculating?

You were referring to nature as a practical example of how order is observed without intelligence. Yet you didn't consider how nature came to be in the first place.

Have you effectively ruled out the input of intelligence in the origin of nature?

johnydon22:
Nope. I think Judeo-Christian God is a limited conception but God can still be anything including a deistic conceptualization

Labels confine you to a fine line you must walk. Take instance: Throughout the discussion here, you kept assuming a position your opponent must take.

That is the effect of labels, people presuppose a position you must take even if it's wrong and argue against their presupposition instead of arguing against your points

I clearly understand your position on labels...

However, without labels a lot of things may be vague and ambiguous. Labels can confine, but you cannot take out the advantage of clarity it offers...

johnydon22:
What is the importance of label on this discussion? I do not believe in God but i am otherwise open to the possibility of one.

And by God...are we referring to the Judeo-Christian God here?

I am asking because you mentioned you were open to the possibility of acknowledging one...

johnydon22:
still arguing from your own assumption?

1.My position have always been, the existence of God is logically contingent. Is not necessarily true neither can it be disproved. Arguments can be made for and against it within the logical purview.

2. Disbelief in a concept is not same as saying it is logically improbable. You seem to be confusing the two.


What is your argument again?

Going by your first point on the existence or otherwise of God... Are you agnostic or an atheist?