₦airaland Forum

johnydon22:
The bolded is sorely your assumption. I have not said that, neither has Hopefullandlord.

Where did you get that from?

Do you alwaya assume up the position of your opponent in an argument and then argue against this your assumption that have not even appeared in your opponents argument?

Oh...so are you now advocating that theists belief in the existence of God is logical?

johnydon22:
How many times would you be pointed back to argumentum ad ignorantum and how it doesn't work?



1. Why do you assume anyone is arguing their belief in God is invalid? Theirs is just as valid as yours. Stop arguing against arguments you make yourself.

2. Appeal to authority? The belief of a scientist is a personal matter, has no place in the lab.

3. Einstein is a spinozoist

4. I'm yet to here your argument

And does a Spinozoist believe in the absence of God?

I also learnt Einstein had leanings towards Pantheism...

Bottom line, Einstein is not an atheist.

hopefulLandlord:
did you just appeal to authority? because I could also list "distinguished scientists" who concluded on absence of "god" too....

Exactly my point. Both theists and atheists we're distinguished scientists in their field...

Despite their various contributions to Science, yet they differ in their conclusion on the existence of God.

What makes the atheists conclusion valid and that of the theists illogical if Science is your basis to prove the absence of God?

hopefulLandlord:
Does it mean, if you don’t understand something, and the community of physicists don’t understand it, that means God did it? Is that how you want to play this game? Because if it is, here’s a list of things in the past that the physicists at the time didn’t understand [and now we do understand] [...]. If that’s how you want to invoke your evidence for God, then God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance that’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on - so just be ready for that to happen, if that’s how you want to come at the problem.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Tell us if Science has the explanation to everything in the natural realm...

It's interesting to note that even Nobel prize winners like Albert Einstein...or distinguished scientists like Isaac Newton did not arrive at the conclusion on the absence of God despite their contributions to this very same Science you uphold...


What makes their conclusion on their beliefs in God illogical and yet that of atheists valid?

johnydon22:
1. Why are you assuming anyone said anything came out of nothing?

2. How does this still imply or prove God?

3. Would you go a step further and assume God came out of nothing?



Logically contingent depending on the model and system in consideration.

In sunmary: Yes.

Causes and effects as observed in nature does.



Some assumptions are just subject to post hoc

Causes and effects in nature is a proof that a system can exist without a designer in place? If that's the case, can this be extrapolated further to conclude life has no origin?


I asked a question earlier...if Science proves that energy cannot be created or destroyed...then does God have to be created as well?

johnydon22:
I'm not sure the model we derive our answers from goes the way you make it be.

You first assume up an answer

Then assume it must be true

Then insist in order to discard this idea, absolute knowledge must be achieved.

That actually is nonsense.

You don't assume up an answer that must be true before you study.

And every speculation is not assumed to be true becauss of the inadequacy of knowledge.

Your argument is quite weird

I asked a simple question and you haven't addressed it in anyway.

Do you have any example or logic or scientific theory that proves life, matter and the universe at large came out of nothing...

Is it logical to assume a system exists without a designer behind it?

Certain assumptions need not be far fetched.

johnydon22:
Argumentum ad ignoranum. This doesn't really imply or prove God.

It is just you replacing thr mystery your heart yearns to understand with another and even bigger mystery.

Can life be created out of nothing?

darkchild64:
This your argument is heavily flawed,if the universe needed a creator,then the creator needed creator x,creator x needed creator x + 1,creator x + 1 needed creator x + 2 and it goes on and on,look what we are saying is this,there are a million theories that one can make up to explain how the universe came to be at the end so the only one we believe is the one that presents sufficient evidence and reason,even if you say that there is someone "God" who created the universe,fine but that is all that u knw about the "God" that he created the universe,what else do you know,do tou know if he is still alive or dead,do you know what nature he possesses, do you know if he cares about humans or not,do you know if he created other galaxies besides ours where life exists,do you know if other life forms more superior than him exists,do you even know if he is qualified to be described as a "being",even if a someone or something was responsible for the creation of the universe which is the natural answer a lot of us would want to give,since we don't want to do any research and think what makes you think that that somwone or something is the person you know as " God* ?

What's the basis for your argument? That the universe was created out of nothing?

If Science can conclude that energy can neither be created nor destroyed... and you are fine with that...

Then how can we also sufficiently prove that God was created?

Even with all the collective knowledge man has, there's a lot yet unknown to sufficiently and convincingly argue away the existence of God.

You know how logic works...you need all the facts on ground before concluding on a subject matter.

If you can come up with a logical argument on how the universe or life generally came out of absolutely nothing...then you have a strong case on ground. Till then...

dalaman:
Are you a deist?

Honestly, I don't know what deism about. So I can't give a conclusive answer on that.

dalaman:
That's the only idea of God that I know and believed to be real all my life.

Mehn...I understand where you are coming from.
God has no religion, and you need no religion to find God.

dalaman:
When I say God I am talking about Yahweh the God of christian theism. Thats the God that I was indoctrinated with as a child. I know such a God does NOT exist because we have how he said he created the universe written inside the bible. The universe as we know was NOT created according to the nonsense that was written inside the book of Genesis. The Genesis account is no different from the Yoruba creation mythology. I might not know what 52525727272 × 5162792525266 is but what I know for sure is that the answer can never be 1000.

I might not know how the universe came about but I know for sure that the Genesis creation account is not how the universe we live in came about. That creation mythology was written by ancient people that know nothing about the universe or how it functions.

How did you know that life came about as a result of a single entity called God?

Aren't you just projecting your assumptions on others? How did you know that only a single creator was involved?

Oh it's clearer now. You have issues seeing God through the Jewish/Christian lenses...

ScienceWatch:
You falsely claim that you don't know how the ............ You can only claim there is No-god because you know how the universe came into existence.

The foundations for your arrival at a correct answer to your own questions concerning God and the universe can found in your own Atheist bible fondly known as
The Atheists Training Manual shared here earlier.
For your convenience, here are a few lessons taken from your Atheists bible;

1. Make sure your main focus is on Christians. You can 'touch' on other groups to appear even-handed, but ensure you are careful to make Christians your constant target; you don't want to get killed in a Jihad, do you? So only 'mention' the others such as Islam but then say that there is no difference between radical Muslims and 'fundamentalist' Christians.

2. Remember that you are looking for faults in other religions (Christians) not trying to defend yours so do not try to prove atheism! Remember, it's much easier to destroy than build up.

3. When referring to atheists always use power-filled terms like 'intelligent, educated, thinkers, strong minded and independent.'

4. Ensure you call Christians childish degrading names like, pathetic air-heads, pointless God-bother-er's, deluded bible kissers and insult them with statements which include the terms like ignorant, clueless, uneducated. The goal here is to provoke and frustrate the Christian to the point they become angry, then, you can then claim they are a hypocrite for not being 'loving like Jesus.'

Apparently, religion has its flaws in describing who God is, and that's what the atheists are latching on.

However, at the end of the day, it takes a leap of faith to study the workings of the universe and still conclude that there is no God... or that all of it is an accident or sheer coincidence...

dalaman:
So the reason why you believe in God is because you do not know how the universe came into being?

As an atheist I do not know how the universe came about. Cam you use God alone and objectively explain to me how the universe cane about?

If you do not know how the universe came into being? Then how can you be certain God does not exist?

I do not know how exactly the universe came to be...but at the very least, I know the universe did not appear out of nothing.

Also, life cannot come out of nothing without a Creator involved.


But hey, can science and logic disprove that?

Atheists are certain God does not exist!

I'd like to know how this universe came to be in the first place...

Was it by accident?

M0ron:
But we know chance or random acts can’t possibly generate order!

It'll be nice to see an atheist using logic to counter this.

Freh:
I believe life on other planets is a given. It's not logical to think that in this whole universe we are the only ones. Just as I believe it's illogical to believe this whole universe came from nothing. The religions may not have it right when they describe creation stories of 6 days and what not.....but it is extremely difficult even scientifically to imagine things just happening like that for no apparent reason. There has to be a cause for all the galaxies being discovered. A cause, I won't call God because of the image already in most peoples head. But let's say a single parlticle in the primordial chaos that reached a state of consciousness or entered a new quantum state and started a cascade reaction that gave birth to everything that we see.

Of course that would mean God is not a man in the sky sitting on a chair. That's a man made image. Instead "who is God?" We should ask "What is God". Instead of a he ir she think in terms of an it. Which I feel accurately portrays our ignorance on the definition of the God concept.


That's by the way. Just imagine what life on other planets will mean for Christian end-of-days teachings on rapture and destruction of the earth in fire. Is it the same timetable for everyone? If it's not let's hop on a spaceship to another planet and skip the end of days

Lol... you're on point!

Hi OP...it's a very interesting thread you've opened and has got me thinking a lot!


Ummm, extra-terrestial life will no doubt have an impact on religion as we see it. Especially if these extra-terrestials are far more advanced in intelligence than the human race. Several centuries into the future, these extra-terrestials will end up being worshipped as gods too.


With all due respect to what the human race has achieved... I still think there's a whole lot of things we don't know yet...


Just my two cents... please I'm not here to fight or argue with anyone...

Cheers...

superhumanist:
It would pay you to do research before coming to argue. Try to understand how these polls on religion are done.

That 35-36% of religious people are those that outrightly state that they are irreligious. That figure does not include irreligious people who still identify as christians due to baptism or tradition. There is also the fact that irreligious people tick "I don't know" or "other religion", as well.


That aside, Germany is a very secular country. That is an undeniable fact.

Isreal is not as religious as Nigeria. Isreal has never won the world cup. Isreal is also a racist country that has failed to understand peace since the 70s.

Brazil has won the world cup and is a strong footballing country...same goes for Spain... and they're not irreligious nation's...

Anyways... God has no business with soccer...

People can be sentimental and emotional over a game of soccer...

superhumanist:
Winner01,

Germany won the last world cup.

Germany is one of the most secular countries in the world

35-36% of Germans are irreligious

51% of German youth are irreligious



Receive sense!

This world cup hasnt ended

Going by your statistics ...


66-67% of Germans are what?

49% of German youths are what?

Moreover, Israel is a religious country...why aren't they backward like Nigeria?

aribisala0:
Tithes were NOT given

The money was to be used on arrival to buy food and alcohol to be eaten and drunk in the presence of da Lord

Exactly!

Eating of tithes ( which was never monetary) is clearly mentioned in the Bible in Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29...


Why isn't this preached?

Jaynom:
Hey. I quoted those verses to prove money existed and that God never asked for money as tithe. I have asked around and NO CHURCH practices the Eating of Tithe because it means less money in the bank account and in the pocket

Oh okay... we're on the same page then...

Which church will ever preach eating of tithes is biblical? As a matter of fact, Oritsejafor mentioned that if you eat your tithe...you'll die quickly...

Bunch of fraudsters...

Jaynom:
Oh no. There was MONEY. Read DEUTERONOMY 14:24-25

24
AMP:And if the distance is too long for you to carry your tithe, or the place where the Lord your God chooses to set His Name [and Presence] is too far away for you, when the Lord your God has blessed you,
25
AMP:Then you shall turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go to the place [of worship] which the Lord your God has chosen.

Kindly continue on to verse 26 and confirm if tithes were given monetarily....

mandate12:
Daddy freeze and this leke guy r birds of a feather - people that will not keep their ignorance within. I just like the fact that u know how to read the bible. A lot of people just read a line hastily without furtherance.

It would nice if you and Jaynom continued by reading up Deuteronomy 14 v 26 and 27..

The Bible clearly mentioned that the money should be used to buy cattle, wine or whatever your heart desires...

In summary, tithes were never required to be given monetarily...

This hasn't gotten to front page?

Lalasticlala... It's a snake thread...

Maestro21:
.

There is a reason I avoid biblical debates on here and it is for the simple reason that most who engage in it are not doing so based on scripture but human feelings. If you are not christian, then you are free to do what you like. But if you are the called of God, then the bible should be your standard. To that end, the emboldened part of your post is not only wrong it is unscriptural. If Paul was a christian who expounded on deep biblical truths then listen to him. This was Paul's response after a man struck him on his face. Paul criticised the man but when he was told that he was the JEWSIH High priest (not even a christian) here was Paul's response:

"I'm sorry, brothers. I didn't realize he was the high priest," Paul replied, "for the Scriptures say, 'You must not speak evil of any of your rulers.'" Acts 23:5

The man mistreated Paul. Paul spoke against him. But when he realized he was a leader, Paul immediately apologised by quoting scripture. I think Pastor Chris and Paul belong in the same camp. I prefer their camp.



Pastor Chris is following scripture. Ask any one who listens to him or has done so even in the past. You would NEVER hear him speak critically of even Nigerian presidents who are easy targets. So this has nothing to do with only religious leaders.



The word of God is wisdom. Those who act contrary to it yet are children of the word are the people who should be warned. Like I am doing now.



Let Nigerians do what they want. As a christian your loyalty is to God first, before Nigeria. So God's word should be honoured first and foremost.


Just like it was said many years ago, it will be said now: Your criticism, what has it achieved? ZERO. NOTHING.



Absolute RUBBISH. David was referring to himself as a Flea. And it was figurative. David was saying, I am inconsequential (little, trivial, irrelevant) yet the king seeks my life. That is exactly what Herod tried to do when he heard that a king was born (Jesus). Herod sought to kill an "inconsequential" baby because he was paranoid.



RUBBISH again. Saul was demon possessed and when overwhelmed, he sought to kill David because David was anointed to replace him not his own son Jonathan. So Saul's response here was simply one of those moments of weakness when the demon was less active. The same Saul afterwards still tried to kill David at least 2 more times before his eventual death. So no, he did NOT REPENT.



Saul was fond of David until the anointing went to David. And that resentment for David never waned because Saul wanted his own biological son to replace him and not David the son of a shepherd with no royal history.



I don't care about Pastors. I care about honouring the word of God.



Same as above.

Paul called out Peter for his hypocritical stance towards the gentiles just to be in good books with the Jews...

What do you call that?

Was Peter not a man of God?

frank317:
What else do u expect when people keep making claims they cannot substantiate.

There will be no back and forth if the guy can just prove beyond doubt that he speaks with the creator of the universe.

Let him tell me one very important mind boggling info the creator has ever given to him.

The lies in this forum are getting too much Abeg.

I agree, people keep making claims they can't substantiate!

The theists cannot give evidence of talking to God... Neither can the atheist give us proof of how this world and universe resulted from nothing!

The theist can never explain the existence of God or whatever to the satisfaction of an atheist... neither can an atheist convincingly explain the absence of God to a theist!

And this same cycle keeps repeating itself on Nairaland...this thing no dey tire una? ( I'm referring to theists and atheists)


All men to their beliefs abeg

And yet... another theist vs atheist catfight thread...


This is getting stale

The pilot should keep the engine running...they won't stay long...

The same Jesus that told a rich young man to sell all his properties and give the proceeds to the poor? Or another Jesus

It's interesting to note that going by Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29, God never asked for tithes to be paid monetarily (i.e. gold, silver or any other form of money)...

Certain Pastorpreneurs have twisted the scriptures to claim tithes are to be paid monetarily.

Well, I'd be happy for them to explain what the Israelites used to create the golden calf...and why God didn't request for gold as part of the items to be tithed.


I'll also like these Pastorpreneurs to show me where in the old or new testament non-Jews gave tithes!

I'm wondering where non-Jews gave tithes in the Bible...

I'm also wondering if the Israelites give tithes as at today...

Even more worrisome is the fact that all these Pastorpreneurs cannot show me where God demanded tithes to be paid monetarily!