₦airaland Forum

Abel make Mikel no take am oh

Dem dey play this match with juju

Obiora4life: Perhaps it does...

Perhaps, they are not the only ones operating that route...

I believe your calculation represents what befalls Bauchi airport.

I have just showed you how to use ones brain rightly! How on earth do you expect other nation states to take people like you seriously when you cannot use your brain reason out a simple lie as this? Benin Airport by volume attracts more than 5flights daily yet does not record that number of passengers yearly Akwa-Ibom whose route is still being developed will attract 500,000? The statistics by FAAN though mainly of Federal Airport clearly tell you that Akwa-Ibom for now cannot attract 500,000 yearly

http://www.faannigeria.org/documents/statistics/2012-Annual%20Traffic%20Report_first%20half.xlsx

Does that link suggest Akwa-Ibom can garner 500,000 yearly? Lets do the maths,
Annual passenger by. Volume =500,000
Number of days in a year, =365days,

Daily passenger by volume = 500,000/365 = ~1369 passengers/day

Arik Air B737 full yield = 210 passengers (all NG series) -source www. Boeing.com

1369/210 = ~ 6.5flights daily !

My people, does Arik Air or Aero operate up to 4 flights daily into Akwa-Ibom Airport? Does that route even attract full load of 210 passengers?

So many Nigerians have become callous in that anybody can spew rubbish and they will believe! God help us all.

Desola: Good call! It baffles me that a grossly negligent company that cost so many lives would be allowed to resurrect in the first place. The company should be completely closed down and both the director and aviation minister either made to stand trial or to face a panel and account for their wrong doing!

What you do not know is if the FG decide to revoke Dana's certificate without recourse to laid down regulations by ICAO, other Nigeria based carriers might face serious retaliation from the international body, and IATA if Dana takes her protest to there.

We know the current Senate is utter useless and lack complete depth. Aviation is not one of those sectors you play politics with. If they are not aware, FAA will be keep an eye o this situation and our CAT 1 may just go with the wind if care is not taken.

In any case, it is only a recommendation which the FG is left to heed or abandon!

[quote author=Wise-talk]If office 2013 is best used when you are online, then, its no good for the common man, especially the average Nigerian. Considering the poor internet service we have in this country. Really, I saw it coming, Microsoft with their tricks again. 2003 was great, 2007 was better, I saw a lot of changes, especially in the environment. With the introduction of the office button to replace the usual 'File menu' in 2003 and the introduction of the large ribbon to replace the numerous toolbars in 2003, these features and more made 2007 a wonderful experience. But when I saw 2010, I was really disappointed. No significant difference from 2007, they only changed the office button in 2007 back to the 'File menu' in 2003 and add one new tool under the insert tab that allows a user to capture an environment and add it to a document. That wasn't new to me, I've been using the 'PrintSrn' key to achieve that before. When I heard that 2013 was coming out, I wondered what trick Microsoft will bring up this time, like I guessed, the trick is simple: there is really nothing to add at the offline level, hence the online features. I will install it and teach my students, but I may not frequently use it for my personal jobs. I like my office 2007, it's unique for me, besides, I dont have to worry about docx files.[/quote]I hope you know MS does not make money of single users like you and me when they sell their MS suites. They do so by selling in volumes to PC OEMs, so watch out the next dell Alienware you buy or the next Sony, Samsung pc will have MS2013

See the stupidity of some Nigerian? If it was Nigeria P-square was attacked like y'all be shouting insecurity blah blah... Now it happened in FLORIDA! All I can read people say is nigaaz goon pay for this and that!

Any travel warnings to Florida by Nigeria Embassy yet

CFCfan: The Bauchi runway could be like 10-15 inches thick.

How did you come up with this? Do you have access to the any data that can shed more light on this?

manny4life: @Omo,

I respect your opinion and reasoning, and yeah, you're very sound in aviation... Thinking about going back to aviation full time, but on the issue of Bauchi, as someone who works numbers, personally, I just don't see it... IMO

Let's electronically shake hands to agree not to disagree (if I made any sense)

It's always okay to agree to disagree. Like I said, opinions are what they are, valid in the eyes of who owns them. But it's all good that people can see merits and demerit of what a government intends to do or is doing.

manny4life: So now, it's not the navigation system but the pavement stress of handling a heavier aircraft? Ok, you just have to be more specific because I thought you were tryna say that it's the navigating ILS system....Anyway, what's the worse case it will handle, 1million pound of an A380?

I was watching modern marvels three days ago, and they use foam (treated differently) to build roads and runways depending on your stress limit requirement and I was shocked. My bottom line is, regardless of how much stress you're budgeting for, even a local runway can land a 747 when diverted.

I still don't believe you need all that much for a runway... IMO, I think I can ask for data to correspond to what you're saying.

It is not just the case that a runway can land a B747 when it's OWE. Here we are talking of a runway landing a B747 when it is overweight landing! Not that many airport around the world can handle such a landing load factor that is why you see B747 and A380 cannot land in certain airports, although for A380 is is largely due to her double decker size with requirements for super gateways.

But what I am driving at is this, if you want your runway to be able to handle high landing load factor, then you would have to thicken it up just like you would do if you were constructing a truck route used for cross-border trucking than you would for a trunk B road.

manny4life: Hmm, while I understand your argument, but for a state like Bauchi, you will ignore all other critical infrastrutures to build one that's its viabilitty is on limbo. The reason why I asked using the amortization example is because, to me, financially, it does not make any sense

If you borrowed money $40million, not only is the govt paying $2million annually, + they're are actually funding the airports (say another $1million annually) = $3million. If eventually 5years down the road it becomes viable, you would have deprived your state of $15million... WAS IT WORTH IT? If you empowered Bauchians with $15million, won't the economy be robust by 5x?

Well you can't be that sure the government borrowed the money. Remember recently, AfDB talked about grant for Nigeria aviation sector, and one of them might just be Bauchi state, but I do not know either.

We can all speculate, but let leave this to the state government because I am sure they government would have spent that amount on something more pressing if the money was not coming cheap. Come to think of it, did it not cost Delta state over 20bn Naira for the Asaba airport?

manny4life: How do you mean "heaviest" of all aircraft? Isn't it same ILS that lands a 737 lands a 747? Please educate me a lil? I'm lost to how you mean, I mean, is there something special amongst these aircraft with their lading system?

ILS is just a navigation system like you know. Your runway pavement bearing stress determines the landing load factor it can handle. So if your runway is constructed cheaply then you will be able to handle only a certain landing load factor. And let me add that the load factor you can handle will determine the amount of revenue you get from your runway.

manny4life: WOW, so he's undertaking a less needed infrastructural need compared to the other?

So I guess, he builds an airports, continues to fund it annually with several hundreds of million of Naira (that should be used to drive the economy) till the airport is viable just because of the savings in the future. Is that your argument?

My point is this, if a business case has been presented that necessitated the airport being built now, so be it. Sometimes you have to take a risk into investing infrastructure and try to make things happen with your investment.

manny4life: Bros, stop bringing me info from Airliners.net

I have come to find out that that website isn't really reliable.

In addition to aircraft landing, I'm aware of landing fees. Here in the U.S. some airports charge $4 while some charge $5 per 1,000lbs. Yes I'm aware of that what I'm disagreeing with you is the runway cost. Unless you want to be ATL who spent $1bbillion for a runway,I think FAA will provide more detailed information.

All I am pointing out to you is that if you want to build a runway that can handle the heaviest of the aircraft out there, then $40m will just about put the first layer on with white markings

Oh by the way, Airliners.net is not some site where you post nonsense, that forum is frequented by those that make the world of aviation go round and if you know your stuff you will easily tell those who are peddling falsehood.

manny4life: An 8-lane projection is simply based on the "right now" demand and potential future, there are more cars and besides, the govt isn't doing this to achieve any revenue from it but rather an infrastructural development. I bet if you billed everyone who traveled on that road, it will definitely pay for itself on the first day.

You're not suggesting that an airport in Bauchi is a needed infrastructure, are you?

I corroborated my earlier submission that an infrastructural investment in the now can translate to great savings in the future, so by making such a move now, building a runway that can serve the state for at least 20years with control tower and proper communication gadgets, He might be saving the state some future expedition should the state have to build it later out of necessity!

manny4life: I don't know what class of runway you wanna build, but ok

I NEVER argued that it's ONLY states with oil should build one, I've always argued on viability and sustainability.

Right now, all you have said is true, but mere theory... let's forget about the theories and focus on actuality


Per my question, I really wanna know what your thoughts are - do you honestly believe that Bauchi can make enough to cover its expense?

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/154910/

Just read that and see what I mean when I said that sum was small for a runway because the revenue you make from runways is a function of other things but major your Pavement Classification Number PCN and Aircraft Classification number,ACN.Also, having navigational aid to landing and take off also bring in money! On average it cost about €40 per landings four some of the least heavy aircraft.

liquid7: Actually i have to agree with those saying a new airport is misplaced priority

You know in Nigeria we are quite good in tel others how bad they are but never good at helping know what they need to do to become good in themselves. The reason is not far fetch - we ourselves have nothing better to give.

Tell us why the airport is such a bad idea and not just agreeing with others.

manny4life: @Omo,

I want us to leave hypothesis and focus on some more reality,

I really wanna know your thoughts on this

If you amortize $40million for 20 years, that's $2million annually, (assuming this is a debt without interest etc), will the govt continue to pay this debt or do u think Bauchi airport will start making $2million annually to repay?

This line of thought when it comes to infrastructure is really not the best of ideas. Come to think of it, why would FG be spending 221bn Naira on 8-lanes in Abuja when the population of Abuja as of today can be served rightly by four lanes? But FG have done a projection of what it would require to build hat lane in 10years when it will really be needed and doing it now, and the difference means do it now will save in the long run. I can see the same line of argument with the Airport.

manny4life: I don't know about international airports being subsidized, but I do know about airlines being subsidized. Subsidy in itself isn't bad, but my question remains, for a state like Bauchi, with good poverty, and poor infrastructure and what have you, is it wise that the govt is "continuously funding" the airport? The U.K. Government has taken it upon itself to subsidize LHR because of it's status on the international level, perhaps they got the money. Does Bauchi have the money?

Remember I once asked you, if you amortize $40million for 20 years, that's $2million annually, (assuming this is a debt), will the govt continue to pay this debt or do u think Bauchi will start making $2million annually to repay?

To begin, $40m is even too small an amount to build an airport runway, but it is a good start. While I am not completely against your line of thinking, I do feel bait uncomfortable with that idea that only states with billions from oil or some other sources should build one. I think for the size of Nigeria, to think that we only have 22 airports is something of great concern. If you recall during the boom of 2005 to 2008, the middle class Nigeria began flying again and most of the airliners could not meet their needs.

As the economy picks up, there would be a need for greater connectivity between cities and towns for business and administration, and places like Bauchi that already invested in infrastructure will be one step ahead of others in the game of pulling people to your local economy.

manny4life: Look man, the reason why I said I wouldn't argue on that part is because I know industry consultants here who have said (with facts) contrary to what you have said, but hey, I left that argument be because it's not worth it.

Dude, no matter how we flog this issue, one thing is clear, just like parents spend their money to train their kids till adulthood, same applies. The govt WILL CONTINUE to subsidize this airport till it's viable. Question remain, is the subsidy really important for a state like Bauchi?

If only you knew that virtually all major airports around the world are subsidised by the state because of spiral effect. Do you know as busy as Heathrow is, it is the government subsidy that enables IAG group to come anywhere close to making a profit there? Subsidy in itself is not a bad idea if it is well utilise for the intended purpose, I.e. to stimulate until stability is arrived at.

Eko Ile: lmao.....Embry OLODO Aeronautical,

With all due respect, I think we can have a discuss without insulting each other. That someone disagree with you does not mean we have to result to insult. Make your valid point and let the person see reasons to believe your view point.

That someone has a contrary opinion is in itself not a deadly sin that warrant insults. Just discuss, learn and move on. Can I also add that we all learn from each other even as we discuss.

manny4life: Bros, if you say so, I'm not even gonna argue that.

I understand your view point, but my personal opinion is sometimes, it is very difficult to see any potential in a child, yet 15years down the line, some parents begin to eat their words. Same goes with many states today in Nigeria.

We just need to get the right people in the right places and those potentials will become obvious to us all.

manny4life: @OMO_TIER,

Let's just agree to disagree...

Hopefully the airport will come online soon enough, I'll be more than interested to see how far it goes...

If we go by the same line of argument, you might as well ask, what business does Benin have that made FG to cite an airport there? Knowing how close it is to Lagos. Yet that Airport in the period I functioned with Okada air was a delight for many travellers.

manny4life: Regardless of it's potential whether regional, local or even international, it does not matter. Why I said that is because regional hubs are LOCAL and are not subject to international laws. What I'm arguing against is it's potential, serving as regional and future upgrade to international is vital due to cost wise.

Point of correction with all due respect, no Airport is subject to any international laws, rather every airport authority is expected to domesticate what ever has been agreed within the ICAO. As for the potential, it all depends what Bauchi does with Her economy and how she wants to operate it.

manny4life: Bros, let's leave all this english, it makes perfect economic sense to put a turboprop of less than 70seats on a route than put a 737 @ 140 seats achieving same load requirements. This is simple economics at work, then other operational issues follow. You talk about poor infrastructures in Nigeria (though they may exist), but same applies to all aircraft even if you're flying a 747.

It doesn't matter because the Q400 is a fly by wire aircraft and is subject to same airspace that a 737 enters. The Q400 may climb faster or descend faster (I really don't wanna know the rate), but what I do know is operational economics comes no1.

I understand you will make such a comment because like I suspect, you may have little or no knowledge of what operational flight control really is! I once flew from Heathrow to Benin City with Arik Air, they had hundreds of passengers at Lagos GAT waiting to fly to Benin, but they to my surprise I saw them put out a Q4000. When I Enquires, I found out the B737 the initially scheduled for that flight has been reroute e by flight ops to do a three leg round trip which will make them more money than flying a full B737 to Benin and back. I won't say much but just leave it as that, there much to flight ops that determines what aircraft flies where.

manny4life: Apparently, you're not seeing my line of arguments. It's people like you and I that have thoughts, (though we may not wake up one morning to decide it), that's absolutely not the point. N7.9billion which is like $40million for an airport is quite enormous.

I have no problem with govt building the airports or simply airlines wanting to penetrate into the market, but using an International airport as an excuse is plainly lame. That's why I said, why can't it be local or regional or whatever? Why should the govt bring out $40million annually for that project? If you amortize that money in 20years, that's $2million per year. Will this airport make more than $2million/yr?

It can't be regional because Bauchi is a near border state that can serve as an international feeder to those towns and cities in Cameroon.

manny4life: My argument is simply on the passenger inflow and outflow based on their equipment. After all it's same Arik that flies Q400 on smaller routes, so my point remains (not necessarily Cessna), but the number of passengers. Rather than say we have 5 flights, (which is good), let's say how many passengers actually utilize it to calculate cost wise.

Go figure out, most routes Arik Air flies her Q4000 is not because there are not passengers, mainly down to poor infrastructure within the nigeria airspace and also as a result of terrain and distance. With turbo props, you can fly climb quick, and descend quick within a short space. I flew Bremen in Germany to Amsterdam and then England with KLM and the airplane they used was a hawker from Bremen to Amsterdam and a Turbo from Amsterdam to England. So there are so many operational reasons why Arik Air will deploy a Q4000 on those routes.

manny4life: All these are supposedly parts of operational certification and not necessarily size of the airports. What I mean by liability is SIMPLE - if you have an average of 1,000 passenger per week (very minute volume) compared to the cost of operation (direct + indirect cost, fixed cost of operation such as electricity,) etc, all these will definitely outweigh the revenue thus becoming a liability for the govt. The govt will continue to subsidize till it becomes viable. The question remains (WHEN?)

What people like you fail to understand is no government wakes up to say oh.. I need a new airport, I am going to build one next week! Serious business case is made for such an airport and in most cases, airlines who want to develop routes into those states put pressure on the government to do something! I was amazed when I did a scan of flights from London to Nigeria, I saw agents offering flights direct to Asaba or warri via Lagos connection. Now that got me thinking again.

Baby mama: Don't mind Blind arguments
Abeokuta perhaps has more visitors going to see Olumo rock in one week than Yankari gets in a month
There was more tourism going in in Jos with shere hills and wild life park than Yankari at its peak
I visited both places at the same period

I have done more with publicizing Yakari game reserve than Bauchi govt has ever done
I have colleagues going to the safari in Kenya and they always ask if we had one Nigeria
Why is Isah Yuguda not advertising his tourism

A tourist doesn't have to fly straight from Obodo oyibo to Bauchi,he can catch a connecting flight to Bauchi and now that it flies weekly Yuguda should work on getting a daily flight more than anything else

It takes a visionary and politically sincere leader to turn things around and people like you will start posting pictures all over the Internet hailing the individual.

manny4life: You do know it's one thing to have five flights in a 737 @ 130 people (100%LF) and it's another to have five flights using a Cessna single engine...

Does Arik Air have Cessna as part of her fleet? Do you know that Arik Air operates 5times out of gombe to Abuja? As for Bauchi, do you know what business case has been presented by Arik Air, Aero , etc to the governor showing how many Bauchi citizens fly to other states daily for onward connection to Bauchi via road?

manny4life: You say direct connection, have you thought of local, regional, or even hub connection, why does it have to be international connection? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

You say Bauchi has more to offer, no doubt that it doesn't, however my point remains, till the offers are worth it, why sink the money into this. Looking on a short term perspective, this is a HUGE liability. Give supposedly three years from now, after building it, are there possibilities that it will yield enough revenues to sustain itself?

To me, international airport isn't necessarily about the size but the operation part of it, that's what makes it different. If you're gonna meet ICAO standards of operations, it cost good money to put certain things in place, and that is fact.

Sorry could not respond, was driving home

What makes an airport international is dependent on runway length, aircraft type handling capacity which is impacted by the radar, ILS etc you have to put in place. So if these are part of the current contract, I do not understand how you mean by liability

Baby mama: How can you compare Akwa Ibom to Bauchi?
I keep redirecting you
bauchi already has an airport that sustains one flight per week
An airport built over 20 years ago



What is stopping it from averaging 2 flights a week in the last 20 odd years?
You have not answered that question


If you are driving a danfo and can barely fill it up for a trip from Afikpo to Abakaliki in 25 years of danfo business,will you go and buy a luxurious bus?
Isn't this common sense?

Do you know Gombe as small as it may look has 5 flights to Abuja from the capital? Going by your reasoning all along, what has Gombe to offer to warrant 5 flights to Abuja alone and now plans are in full gear to make it daily flight! That should tell you how government make things happen!