₦airaland Forum

Joagbaje:
And God told moses only to collect from those who give it willingly . Is that not the same thing? They only collected from those who gave willingly Just as Gideon was asked to send back those who were not willing to follow him. He accepted those who came . God has never taken from man his will power. You have the right to obey or disobey God.

Thats totally different....during the time of the law,collections and offerings where primarily hinged on what you get out of it....and failure to offer some thing negated you from God.....This is just another reason why the law never placed the giver with a choice to give from a free mind devoid of compulsion or hesitation....
So according to the loop-sided law,If you pay,You get God's blessings,if you don't pay,God seizes to bless you...this was also synonymous with "tithe payment"!
But under a new covenant,giving is based on LOVE and not compulsion or imposition...hence the law made nothing perfect!

Joagbaje:
Really? Can I ask you a honest question? What bible did they have in the early church? If you carefully search . It's the law and the prophets.

After carefully searching through....it was apparent that some jews intended forcing the newly converted believer to observe the law and the prophets...

Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved!”
But after Paul and Barnabas had engaged them in serious argument and debate, the church arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this controversy.
When they had been sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, explaining in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and they created great joy among all the brothers.

When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, the apostles, and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. But some of the believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law of Moses!”

Then the apostles and the elders assembled to consider this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them: “Brothers, you are aware that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the gospel message and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now then, why are you testing God by putting a "yoke" on the disciples’ necks that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe we are saved through the "grace of the Lord Jesus" in the same way they are.” Acts 15:1-11


If you read and study the entire Acts 15,you will agree with me that the apostles were alarmed and disappointed by some of the jews who wanted the newly converted believers to observe the law of moses....Due to frequent harassment from the jews,the elders and apostles wrote a letter to the gentiles...where they were advised to observe some laws like abstaining from food offered to idols, from blood, from eating anything that has been strangled, and from sexual immorality....And this was done in order to keep them safe from the constant siege of the judaism based audience who want the to circumcise and observe the entire laws...Acts 15:22-29

Joagbaje:
When paul told Timothy to study ,. What scriptures ? THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS .

Could you be so kind to place the scripture where Paul told timothy to study THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS

Joagbaje:
In Pauls personal study why he was asking for books and parchment to read. What was it LAW AND PROPHETS. let's not become holier than God . All scriptures are given by God inspiration . They are holy scriptures .

First of ALL provide scriptures where Paul told timothy to study the "law and the prophets"....

All scriptures are given by God's inspiration right?
Which means the scripture where the "burning of incense" is sighted is holy and acceptable right?
Okay...we should also carry out heave and wave offerings too...cos its part of the holy scriptures..
Wat about burnt offerings?
Physical Circumcision is also part of the holy scripture....
Now since they are holy scriptures according to you...How many have you so far observed?

Joagbaje:
Tithing existed before the law. As every other spiritual principle . Like prayer , sacrifice , fasting offerings Etc . The fact that the law talks about them does not make the law the originator. The law is only for references . And the fact that the law was done away doesn't take away kingdom principles . There no place God or christ ever spoke against tithing

So we can as well conclude...that "burnt offerings" are "spiritual principles"....Physical circumcision is also a spiritual principle right?
Remember these practices were existed before the law like tithes according to Joagbaje....hence they are still valid right?
Now If you answers are in the affirmative,when did you last partake in a burnt offering?
Have you had ur physical circumcision?
And i beg you, don't start saying the rest were replaced except tithe.....such statements will label u a deceptive person!

Joagbaje:
He is a prophet and he has Gods revelations . The principle was revealed to him.

No more "revelations" Mr Joagbaje...show me from scriptures

Joagbaje:
Let me tell you something . Tithing is the least of our givings. I may sound boastful I would have mentioned some things . My givings far exceed my tithing . Personal giving. And also giving for my company and business corporately. People give cars lands houses which far exceed their tithes as they were inspired .

I asked you a simple question....instead of answering,you started listing all the thing you do with your money.....
Please who receives the other 90% of ur income after you have offered 10% to your supposed priest.....according to that scripture?

Joagbaje:
I agree

Am glad you did cos i wud have used that to question the foundation of ur belief system!

Joagbaje:
There are 2 things I will want you to understand. There's different between the content of the law and obedience to the law. You kept trying to give impression as though I'm advocating obedience to the law. Let me take it that you're doing it innocently . I've told you my stand on the law over and over and over . And it's sad each time you're making a case concerning law round and round. We are no longer under bondage to the law . But at the same time that doesn't condemn the content of the law. Because Many of Gods principles are contained in the law. Such as honoring your parents. Will you commit murder ? Will you dishonor parents Because the law is no longer a master no. Because despite the fact that these content are in the law . The are not wrong in themselves because they reveal Gods principles. Helping the poor ,keeping away from idol Etc. These are revelation of Gods mind. We do it because they are kingdom principle . The law reveals Gods mind ,standard of judgement,fairness ,love Etc. But because the people were not regenerated yet they lack the ability to obey the law and secondly they couldn't attain perfection or righteousness by it. Because the best man among them still has unrighteousness as nature . The law is the law of God .

Mr Joagbaje,Both contents and obedience of the law have been abolished because it was weak and useless....
Ok you are implying the "obedience part" is the one abolished while the "contents" remain....
Are you reading your very words?
Then whats the use of the "contents of the law" if we are not going to obey them....
Its the obedience part that ensures that contents are adhered to....
The scriptures were specific and its very clear Mr Joagbaje,
whether you choose to believe it or not.....
The former commandments have been set aside because it was weak and useless..for the law made nothing perfect...
So quick questions for you....
Why use "contents of the law" that are weak and useless?
Is there any sense in using contents of an expired and obsolete product?
The Lord said the law of Moses which includes its contents and obedience has been annulled and abolished.....End of story!

Will I commit murder ? Will I dishonor my parents? Hmmm....let me think....
In other words,You are suggesting that a believer needs the law of Moses in order not to commit murder?....in order not to bear false witness?...in order not to disobey ur parents?
Let me just believe you have not come across this scripture.....Or Maybe You have but chose to ignore it due to the fact that it conflicts with ur "tithe revelations"

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10

What motive or intent did our lord conceive before offering his son as a sacrifice for mankind?
Did God allow Christ to endure and go through all the tortures on the cross Just to uphold a law he went to complete and nullify?
Do you need more scriptures to prove that Love TOOK OVER from the law of Moses the very day Jesus said it was finished on the cross?

Finally,You sud never be mistaken about God......He has the power to take out any LAW and instill another.....
That was exactly what he did......Take out the old and establish the new...

For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:7-13

Now before u start asking which law God wud be putting into their minds and hearts....,
You sud know that a change of priesthood also necessitated a change of the law ....Read Hebrews 7:12 for reference.
Hence,God was talking about a new law that was totally different from the former....
This corresponds with the scripture....

And this is [b]his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (1 John 3:23)[/b]

LOVE fulfilled ALL the requirements of the LAW....So when next you think of killing some one...Think about love...
Whenever you are tempted to steal....Think about LOVE for your neighbor....
So whatever Intent You have......Think about LOVE...
When God sent his own son Jesus to offer his life as an atoning sacrifice for ALL,his intent was that of LOVE....(John 3:16)
Remember Love for your neighbor does not mean ur nearest neighbor or friend.....
So if i may slightly borrow quote from T.B Joshua...."Let LOVE lead the WAY"

Joagbaje:
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law still gave the standard of righteness and wrong. Without the law you would not have known wrong or sin. The law revealed sin.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

What was the belief systems of the Romans?
were they under the law or out side the law?
why did he say "because of the Jews,i became a jew to win over the jew"...."for the sake of those under the law,i became one under the law,though am not under the law,but i do so to win over those who are under the law......"
Those were part of Paul's very words in the scripture 1 Corinthians 9:19-23....
I have explained to you Paul's reason behind using the law as a tool to teach the Romans about christ....
Unfortunately,You have chosen to ignore that scripture for reasons best known to you and yet you keep doing a repetition and as well sounding like a broken record....
Again....i will show you those scriptures again and hope u lay aside ur obvious pride and study those scriptures....
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and Acts 28
You will understand why Paul (not God) had to use the ousted law of Moses to teach people about Christ...

Joagbaje:
[color=red]2 Timothy 1:11
Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.


He was apostles to the Gentiles . But that's not our point now . Let's not be distracted.

The question is why would paul used an obsolete law to teach a new people. It's simple it's the law of God!

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good

Like i already explained in detail Paul missionary journey did not only teach the gentiles....
2 Timothy 1:11 only stated that he was a teacher of the gentiles....It didn't say he was ONLY DESIGNED OR INSTRUCTED TO teach the gentiles..
Thats why he was quoted as saying he became everything to everyone (Including being as one under the law and out side the law) Just so that he could win souls for the Christ...

When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers.
From morning till evening he expounded to them,
testifying to the [b] kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
Acts 28:23[/b]

The audience Paul was teaching or preaching to were not yet MATURED enough to grasp the gospel of grace...hence he used the law to convince them about Christ....It doesn't necessarily mean he believed in the law of Moses...knowing fully well about the futility of the law of Moses and its contrast with the "gospel of grace" (Ref: Galatians 3)

Since you are so insistent on ur law mantra...which you claim is not ur basis for ur tithe doctrine....(Which i don't believe)
If the law of Moses was perfect or needed or had relevant contents like you opined,Why did God order for a change of the law?
Was it because the new law was superior,presided over by a high priest Jesus and founded on better promises?
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing....Galatians 2:15
if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law....Or don't you think so?

Joagbaje:
That's different . He sent himself ,he had to use fleshly way to win them which can never work. Even though That should have even made more sense to show identification with the Jews by compromising his faith. But what we are dealing with was Paul using the law to teach Gods principle to Gentiles . Let's humble ourselves . It's because the principles are based on truth. Kingdom principles . Law or no law . It should have been a crime to use what was evil to illustrate good

Interestingly,you are now getting to understand wat Paul was trying to do....
What you call crime or compromise,he calls it winning souls for Christ....
And he doesn't care about the means....he had a mandate...he had an intent and a motivation..and the zeal....which was far more important than the pattern he used....

There are no kingdom principles in an out-dated and condemned law.....
His means may have flawed but only true and spiritually inclined believers will appreciate his calling....

Joagbaje:
We don't need o former night club stripper to continue to strip so as to lure men to christ.

illustration bro....that's what Paul had to do....you can question his pattern or means but not his commitment to win souls for the sake of the gospel...

Joagbaje:
That would have been excellent if he was dealing with Jews. But now he became a Jew to the Gentiles!

From his submissions,it was quite obvious that he was also dealing with the Jews....
He outlined those he was ministering to; The Jews,those under the law,those outside the law and the weak!
Or are you implying that if he had an opportunity to preach or teach the gospel of grace to a Jewish audience,he will decline the offer simply because he only teaches the gentiles?
Who was he teaching or preaching to in Acts 28?
It seems you are forgetting that the Jews are not also saved because they practice Judaism which is totally alien to the gospel of grace...which literally makes them SINNERS

Joagbaje:
It's takes humility to admit wrong. I just showed you where paul got the principle from because you never knew that the love of God was not a New Testament revelation . I wish you could study the old without biase

Like i told you before....i don't need or use outdated or obsolete products...maybe you use them...but not me...
There is no bias for the old....it is simply what you called it OLD....and worn out....
It was great while it lasted...unfortunately God found out that the law alienated him from his people...
The law made his people worship him with their lips but their heart was far away from him....
The law made God's people obtain justification through eye-service or self-righteousness...
Same law that prevents priests from helping anyone in need simply because they were forbidden by law to touch any thing that had blood on it...
There were so many inconsistencies about the law....God took notice and made changes...!

Joagbaje:
So when God asked the people to come with offering , that is imposition right? We are talking about God. Yet Paul asked the churches to lay money aside weekly as relief .and that is love . What's the difference ?

You and i know it was contained in the law to make OFFERINGS!
It was a law requirement....which is the same as an imposition!
It just shows you the loop-sided nature of the law....which God in his immerse wisdom and unspeakable love corrected by setting aside the old and establishing the new....
What Paul did was not different from what transpired in Acts 4:32-35 where believers sold their lands and brought the money equivalent to help those that were in NEED (GENEROSITY)....same gesture was displayed by the Macedonians whom Paul admonished the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 8:1-7 to emulate and also learn the grace of giving from the Macedonians....
Just as the law of Moses differs from the law of grace....hence GENEROSITY differs from OFFERINGS...!

@Joagbaje ....was slightly busy........let me respond to them

so the mods finally decided to move LFC "matches" to front page after a long while? ...I love this change transformation

Candour:
With all the discussions you and I have taken part in in time past, you should know you're the last person I'll waste time with on the issue of commercialisation of Christianity or fraudulent twisting of Scripture to fleece folks of their money in the name of tithe.

I'm only letting openmine know the inconsistencies in the tithe doctrine of your and your daddy. Openmine is obviously just encountering you so you're free to keep up the charade.

Meanwhile, have you paid sirjohn the 500k you vowed before all of us to pay?

I thought he had paid the guy.....

Joagbaje:
If I have time I may look at whatever you wrote if there's need worth responding to .

Well...Take ALL the time you need....My statements are worth responding!!!

Candour:
@openmine, Compare the bold above with what joagbaje and his oga teach their flocks in their most important literature after the bible(for some of them, you could argue that ROR is more important than the bible)




Joagbaje says you give tithe as voluntary but his most holy ROR by his daddy says actually you PAY tithe and its a MUST otherwise you're a robber.

Jo can't change. Not until oyaks repents from the fraud of tithe demands.

Oga Joagbaje and tithes are liken to bread and butter....they can never be separated...
Oga candour how far nah...longest time....

annunaki2:
Even if oyaks repents from the tithes scam, I doubt very much that joagbaje will repent from this very lucrative scam.

Joagbaje:
Kindly quote where it says the law was useless thanks

With ALL pleasure.....

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness Hebrews 7:18 ESV

So the previous command is annulled because it was weak and unprofitable Hebrews 7:18 (Holman christian standard bible)


For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. Hebrews 7:18 King James version

18 The old rule is now ended because it was weak and worthless. Hebrews 7:18 ERV

Do you want more translations?
Please let me know....
Surprisingly,Its right there in your bible and i have quoted this scripture more than 10 times...on different posts....
Are you implying that you don't follow up my scripture quotes?

Joagbaje:
At least I showed you the scripture where paul say so . Do you know better than paul ? I also asked you to show where it says the law is evil . I'm waiting for your response .

And i provided you with a corresponding rebuttal scripture to counter that....
And it was just to prove that Paul was intentionally observing the law of Moses to win souls in rome....

Acts 28:23
Paul and the Jews chose a day for a meeting. On that day many more of these Jews met with Paul at his house. He spoke to them all day long, explaining God’s kingdom to them. He used the Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets to persuade them to believe in Jesus.

The Highlighted verse of Acts corresponds to an earlier scripture where Paul highlighted his intents for the sake of the gospel

Hear him;

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.


To those under the law I became as one under the law ( though not being myself under the law ) that I might win those under the law.


To those outside the law I became as one outside the law ( not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ ) that I might win those outside the law.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.

I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME.

I do it all for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

You sud know that just a scripture cannot stand on their own....You need a corresponding scripture to interpret the former...

Now you asked a question if i knew better than Paul.....Well...At least you can see from the highlighted scriptures that he knew what he was doing...Unfortunately,You were carried away by his support for the law of moses without considering that he was doing so to persuade the Romans about the gospel of christ and not because he Supported an expired,weak and useless law...Paul knew better...do you??

Joagbaje:
The aspect of the law fulfilled by christ can not be undone. But tithing has no fulfillment except that christ is now the one who recieve our tune in the order of Melchizedek

The fulfillment of the law by christ implies that you no longer need to be under the supervision of the law....
Really?
Who told you tithe was no fulfilled?
was tithing not part of the law of Moses?
I have quoted scriptures to either convince or show you that Christ priesthood does not receive tithes or gifts or make sacrifices.....
I have also shown u using scriptures on why the priesthood of Christ is far superior than that of Melchizedek....
But unfortunately you ignored them....using Melchizedek as ur standard...
Tell me did Melchizedek offer himself as an atoning sacrifice for all men?
Did Melchizedek die for ur sins?
Was there a sworn oath on king Melchizedek priesthood like that of Christ?
I know why you keep insisting on Melchizedek.....just to substantiate ur weak tithe claims??
Don't you worry...Many believers are now finding out the truth about the obvious deception behind tithe doctrine...And so many souls will be delivered by this apparent slavery perpetuated by respected ministers of the Gospel....The truth never hides!!!

Joagbaje:
I'm seeing some dishonesty here . Let me just take it as a Mistake for now. I already told you the only problem with the law is that it lacks the power of justification. Now you're quoting a scripture which says excactly that but you cut away that part . What are you really trying to achieve ?

Dishonesty?
Please be specific and highlight where you don't comprehend.....So that i can make it clearer for you.....
The law lacks justification because its no longer relevant....The finished work on the cross ensured that it stayed that way...
Its duty or intents or relevance ended the day Christ was revealed.....
Trying to UN-nullify an ousted law just so that you can justify ur tithe beliefs only shows that you are the dishonest one....

Joagbaje:
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.same paul the apostle said
Christ is the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOSNESS . But you tried to make the scripture say otherwise . See I don't waste my time with dishonest people.but let me still give you benefit of doubt .

The only dishonest and deceptive one is you....

Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God. Romans 10:4 ERV

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for every one who believes Romans 10:4 NIV

I don't know a clearer and better illustration that Romans 10:4...
So where is the dishonesty coming from?
If you want me to explain the scripture for you to comprehend...no wahala...just ask....and i will explain with corresponding scriptures....afterall,scriptures mast match scriptures....!!!

Joagbaje:
The message is very clear . Justification ,righteousness ( peace with God ) cannot come by the law .

Well Your statements and beliefs from ur earlier posts betray wat u just put up....Or are you trying to say you don't understand wat it means to be justified..?

Joagbaje:
Come on now how does this theory of yours explain this scripture . .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promisewink
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

What gospel will paul be preaching by using a condemned law? It doesn't add up try again.

If we go by this theory of yours which appears to be double standard Then why are you getting mad at the quoting Malachi to support tithe ?

This is not my theory but based on the intelligence of Paul....
I even went as far as showing you scriptures and corresponding scriptures to buttress Paul's intents which was for the sake of the gospel...
You obviously ignored those scriptures and now you call it my own theory ?
Hilarious
I have shown you with scriptures why Paul used the condemned laws...
But you intentionally chose to ignore them sighting the honoring of ur parents scriptures...
If you really want to learn or find out why Paul used a condemned law to teach the gospel,
Then study Acts 28 and 1 Corinthians 9:19 - 23
And if possible humbly study the entire book of Acts....to understand what Paul did what he had to do!
As for Malachi 3:10,Please don't go there cos you yourself said ur tithe is pre-law ...."abi u wan take am join threaten ur congregation?"

Joagbaje:
Can you kindly quote where I refereed to myself as a Levite. Thanks and if you cannot . Kindly stop harassing me.

Ohh very easy....go back to your first post on this thread and start looking...you will find it out...but when you do please don't take it off ohhh
I cant do that for you....its ur post not mine
As per harassing you....I did not Ohh ...am telling you wat u explicitly displayed....

Joagbaje:
I still don't know why you go in this circles . I tried to make you understand my point. If I do what is contained in the law . I'm not not doing it because the law say so . I do it because it's a principle inGods kingdom . But the principles of God existed before the law came . So the coming and passing of the law doesn't change constant principles

You were obviously the one moving in circles non-stop all along and dats because you know you have been cornered....
Your obvious statements(previous and present) proves my point that your pre-law tithes has little or no bearing....without Malachi 3:8 - 10
U keep mentioning principles and kingdom principles...don't these so called principles have a scripture statement or is it part of ur imagination?
Okay lets say you were preaching to an individual and he inquires about a scripture to substantiate ur pre-law tithe...what will be ur answer?
You will start explaining why the kingdom principles cant be found in the scriptures or you will eventually run to Mr Malachi....?

That's why partners sud engage in random discussions in other to see each odas reaction based on the issue...
I know people can pretend....
but trust me,wen the time is right,it will surely be revealed....and u wud have to make a choice on whether to accept him or her with deir flaws or move on...
The choice is urs and ur future is at stake....wit d choice u make....

midehi2:
exactly, if she was a chronic lez, as far as she refused having sex with him, she won't even delete those nude pics, she really want a change and the op failed her again

Wats d difference...whether chronic lez or normal lez or bi....that lady ain't ready to change....if she wanted to, she wud have asked for help long ago....
but its obvious she is well engrossed in the act....
she might also be mas.turbating while watching dose vids....
The more reason why she is not really interested in getting intimate with the OP....
whenever you are struggling with a habit dat u don't like,the first step is to admit it....Second step is to ask for help....unfortunately, the lady hasn't done any of them...

Joagbaje:
The law was a guide . Instructions in law are not slavery . What of the instructions paul gave . Will you say the instructions paul gave to give money was slavery?
The instruction not to lie was slavery?
The instruction not to defraud ,steal etc are slavery? Why didn't he leave every man to their conscience . And the love of God shed abroad ? I will appreciate your response.

Yes the law was a guide to lead us to a superior law....the law of christ
The law then WAS our guide,our school master,until chrst was revealed...Now that christ has been revealed and faith has been established,we are no longer under the dictates or supervisions of the law(Galatians 3:23-25)....and thats because of the law of christ which is grace based...

A little illustration will be all u need to understand this transition....
Lets say that am travelling to Ekiti state from bayelsa state...the bus stops me at ondo state,and i get into another bus heading to Ekiti state...
The bus that conveyed me from bayelsa to ondo state has completed its duty ....while i take a bus heading to ekiti from ondo state....which is my destination!
The law of moses just like the bus from bayelsa fulfilled its duty by dropping me at ondo state...while the bus heading to ekiti is going to my final destination just like the law of christ had taken over from the law of moses to lead us.....
Will i still need the bus that took me to ondo state?
Absolutely not...
Its has fullfilled its mission and duty...hence its services are no longer needed or wanted....same is applicable to the law of moses....
As it pertains to instructions based on the law,how do i claim to be a believer of the gospel of christ and received the gift of righteousness and yet claim to receive instructions from the law of moses.....?
In other words am saying christ died for nothing.....
You are under a new covenant presided by a high priest Jesus christ...hence you are to follow instructions based on the laws of christ and not the obsolete and ousted laws of moses which u disappointingly and tirelessly hold on to just to justify ur tithe beliefs....

Joagbaje:
Can I ask you a question? Are you aware that paul was a minister to the Gentiles? Are you aware that the Ephesians were not Jews? So don't say paul was dealing with those who are neck deep in the law. Look at this scripture again .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Paul didnt only teach the gentiles,he also taught the romans and jews.....
His goal like i sighted earlier in previous posts was to win as many people as he possibly cud using the laws of moses....
I believe this was very explicit wen he admitted that he was a servant to all though he was a free man....
paul's teachings were not only limited to the gentiles.....like u earlier implied,he taught ALL men no matter their beliefs just for the sake of the gospel....if you studied the book of Acts very well,you wud have observed tha paul even went to countries where judaism was a norm...he even went as far as behaving like them....he even burnt insense and partook in burnt offering in order for him to use the very abolished laws of moses to preach about the gospel of christ....

He knew he was a believer of the gospel and not subjected to the laws of moses...yet he used the laws of moses(judaism) as means to reach out and convince them about the gospel of the cross....

We can liken paul to a female believer who temporarily converted to a prostitute just so that she cud convince dose indulging in such practices to stop by teaching them the gospel of christ

It takes great insight and a level of grace to understand wat paul wanted to achieve.....
While you thought he was in support of the law of moses,he was smartly trying to convince people to join the gospel train...

From his letter to the ephesians,it was obvious he sighted that verse due to their level of understanding....
He knew they wud be confused and perplexed if he gave them the message of grace which was based on LOVE..
Do you with ur level of understanding of the gospel still need the law to instruct u about honoring ur parents?
If thats the case Sir,then the message of grace has not been fully immersed in you...i say this with all due respect!!!

Joagbaje:
Why on earth will an apostle of the grace of God be quoting the law to a people who were never under the law. Because there are principles of God kindgom revealed there.

Wrong Sir....It was for the sake of the gospel to be preach to all and sundry...so dont be easily deceived by paul's weak stance on the law of moses....
For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews.


To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.


To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak.

I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME.

I do it all for the SAKE OF THE GOSPEL that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

I think the scriptures are very clear as to what was Paul's intentions and goals....!
If you cannot see it,then is obvious u have ulterior motives....

Joagbaje:
You're explanation is very weak here pls
There's no new way of giving . People have always been giving by love for God.

Exodus 25:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Paul was only quoting what was already revealed in the Old Testament . A principle . I just hope my point are getting clearer to you .even if you don't agree but understand my perspective first .

I wasnt expecting a compliment or any thing different from an unrepentant tither....
When giving is forced or imposed on a person...it seizes to be giving....
there is no way you can give what is required by law.....its like saying you freely pay ur light bill or ur water bills know fully well that failure to pay will stop you from having access to water or light.....

For each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give.... NOT RELUCTANTLY OR UNDER COMPULSION ... for God loves a GENEROUS GIVER


Did Exodus 25:2 sight the highlighted conditions for GIVING in 2 corinthians 9:7?
Have you seen or are you seeing why the laws of moses which you sighted were not perfect....and in other terms,weak and useless?
You just used a verse to prove once again that the laws of moses were weak and useless hence God sort to annull and bring its stewardship to a crushing end....
Giving seizes to be giving wen it is done under compulsion or reluctantly......Thats why the tithe doctrine or revelations is heavy flawed with its weak and useless stance....for it made nothing perfect just like the rest of the laws of moses....

Joagbaje:
Why is paul giving instruction to the churches? What happen to "christ in you"

Very simply....they were still baby christians.....wud you feed a new born child with akpu or garri?
According to 2 peters 1:2;
Grace and peace be mulltiplied to you in abundance through ur knowledge of God and of jesus our lord

Yes christ dwells and has bestowed onto you the gift of righteousness.....will u know that gift in one day as a babe christian?
The answer is an emphatic NO...
The more knowledge you have about God tru his word,the more you are enlightened and aware of ur rights as a son of God...
Paul taught a particular audience about the grace Gospel.. while for other audience like rome,he started by teaching them Judaism....in hope that they may know the gospel of grace later.....It was all about the sheer intelligence and zeal of paul who was determined to reach out to EVERY ONE BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY FOR THE SAKE OF THE GOSPEL.

Joagbaje:
These were Gentiles churches not even proselytes. The law is a guide of right and wrong . But remember that my conviction on tithing is not based on the law. I only got into law issue because you asked questions of the law.

The law WAS ONCE a guide before faith came....
Now The Law is no longer a guide or school master or in charge of believers....Cos it has fulfilled its duty which was leading us to Christ...
We no longer need the law of Moses as a guide....for you are no longer under the supervision of the law but under grace...(Ref:Galatians 3:23-25)
You sud have been firm on ur grip on ur pre-law tithes but you kept gallivanting while using the law of Moses to justify ur pre-law tithes....
Now since you have maintained a little bit of consistency on ur pre-law tithe,I have questions to challenge ur pre-law tithe conviction...
On wat covenant does your pre-law tithe base it foundation on?

Since you claim ur tithe was based on Abraham's apparent gesture towards king Melchizedek.wat corresponding scripture on ur pre-law tithes (aside Genesis 14:18-21) can you use to substantiate ur tithe beliefs?

If according to you,Abraham "tithed",was he under any "instruction" from God to offer king Melchizedek the spoils of war?

Finally....lets say you tithe using ur supposed Abraham tithe as a guide...After offering the priest ur tenth,will you give ur king or president the remaining 90?

Joagbaje:
Stop addressing as such . I'm a tither not collector.

What do i address you as? A tithe receiver just like the levite?

Joagbaje:
Kindly read the entire thread. From the opening post . My foundation had been abrahamic faith . But if you ask me question under the law I will answer you . That doesn't mean I practice law. It's just a bible discussion. Secondly the law is not evil . There are content in the law that are based on spiritual principles . Paul said the law was good . It's wrong use that is not right .

Sir go and check ur initial foundation.....it was initially 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 where u based as ur foundation for tithing....
you only ran to genesis after i had shown you that 1 Corinthians 9:13 was part of a nullified law,
You used Genesis 14:20-21 to justify that you tithe was a supposed "pre-law",
I asked you if Abraham was obligated to tithe from God to Melchizedek,
I also asked you If u partake in burned sacrifices and and circumcision,
You erroneously claimed with no scripture inclination that God replaced the rest of the pre-laws and left out tithes..
Still you ran again to Jacob and said it was ur foundation to tithe..
I still insisted on scriptures to buttress ur claims but you instead said you received a "personal revelation" about tithe which you use as a principle,
Now you have reversed back to Abraham's sharing of war spoils as foundation...
All i see from ur foundations on tithe is synonymous with running from "pillar to post"......
Even If i decide To use ur current foundation(which i have done) to probe its validity,you will still evade the questions and run to another supposed "foundation"

If it was not evil like you said,why was it labelled weak and useless by God?
Do you know better than God?

If the law was good like you are alluding to,why are you not practicing them?
Why are you using some and leaving out the rest of the laws?
Is that your yardstick to justify that the law is good?
Your father in heaven said "i have set aside the law of Moses 4 ur sake because it was weak,obsolete and useless", you are saying some laws are good.....?
Please sir,where was it written in scripture that "SOME OF THE LAWS" are good while other are bad?
I repeat,you don't know better than God....

Joagbaje:
Romans 7:12 (TLB)
But still, you see, the law itself was wholly right and good.

The same Paul said in Romans 10:4, "that Christ is the end of the law to those who believe".....
same paul the apostle said

Ephesians 2:14-15
"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances,
that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace"

Paul was speaking to an audience that had not fully under stood the gospel of Jesus based on grace!
Hence he attempted interchanging both the law of Christ and the obviously nullified law of Moses just for the sake of the gospel !
But that does not in any way prove he was in support of the laws of Moses....

Joagbaje:
Did I ever tell you I get paid by tithe? Stop these silly remarks . If you can't focus on the bible and topic I may stop responding to you.

Now who is the one getting emotional and personal now?
Yes you did say so wen u first referred ur self as a levite of our time using 1 Corinthians 9:13-14.....
I always knew u wud deny ur very own words.....even wen it was obvious that u said so....
i will keep asking you this question until i get an answer from you....
i repeat...
Why do you seek to receive tithe from a nullified law of Moses?
Failure to answer that question simply means you are neither sincere nor honest!!

Joagbaje:
Are you deliberately going round or pretending not to understand my point? Ok let me give a closer illustration. Nigeria had series of. constitutions. Clifford constitution,Macpherzon and Littleton constitution right ? Now we have new constitution . Under the former constitution murder was A crime ,stealing was a crime . But the new constitution made changes as regards rights ,slave trade but murder and stealing still remain a crime even though there's change of law because based on universal principle they will always be wrong. The fact that there a new constitution does not change the opinion against murder and secondly if we don't commit murder it's not because Macpherzon constitution said so it's because it's universally wrong . As much as we don't live by it . Doesn't make all its content wrong . So don't ask me about incense burning , wave offering or heave offering . I am not a law advocate .what christ has fulfilled is done away such as . Blood sacrifice etc

That is based on a man-made constitution where changes are at times made based on selfishness and greed!
God never made constant changes the same way the constitution was altered at will to satisfy the elites of the society...
Remember the law was set aside and replaced by a better one due to its obsolete nature....Obsolete in other words implies that it can not be used any more...cos it has past its time!
Can you keep mending a shoe or repairing an electronic equipment whose time has already expired?
Do you still make use of an equipment or stuff you had 20 years ago?
I highly doubt it.....the law of moses had an expiration date unlike the constitution in other for grace tru the finished work of the cross to be ushered and established!
(Galatians 3:23-25)
U can change a law in the constitution while others stand but in the case of the law of Moses,they were SET ASIDE,EXPIRED AND REPLACED!
Using ur very illustration as reference,its like saying the constitution of a nation has been annulled and nullified or no longer in existence....Thats exactly wat God did to the law of Moses....Its usage was no longer needed hence it was no longer used!
That the very reason why the law of moses was said to be obsolete....no longer usable,way past its expiry date,no longer in existence!
God then went further to establish a brand new law where Christ is the high priest....calling it the law of Christ which was based on LOVE
If you are insistent that you still use the law of Moses....
Then,the burning of incense still applies to you....
The wave offering or heave offering still applies to you...same as blood offering...
If u say u r not an advocate of the law,then stop insisting that some of the laws are still in effect or base Ur tithe convictions on the law of Moses!
If you are against the law,say so in totality....if you are a law advocate,say so and stand by it completely....
Don't speak from both sides of the mouth....or keep shifting the goal post wen its apparent that you have been cornered!

james 2:10....if you keep the entire laws of Moses but stumble on one,you are as guilty of breaking all of it....
In other words,All the laws of Moses are important and none is higher or more relevant than the other....

Joagbaje:
Precisely these are all spiritual principles . Tithes ,offering , alms , honor for parents ,right living etc they all have their benefit . Principles cut across dispensations. They are constant . I ask you a question once . Do you give offering ?

Ur principles are faulty because they are based on an "expired and obsolete" laws....
wat will i be doing with an obsolete law...?
are you saying the law of Christ which is love does not lead you to honor you parents or give to the poor or support a project in ur assembly or ensure that you live right?
Notice that i intentionally omitted tithes,offerings and alms cos they are expired and useless according to Hebrews 7:18....a better law where jesus is a mediating high priest takes care of the poor and support for the minister of the gospel....

As it regards ur question whether i give offerings,
I don't because offering is an obsolete pattern of giving....
The new pattern is based on generosity....which covers all and sundry
have u studied how the early Christians gave??

Joagbaje:
Where' did it say the law was evil? Kindly quote

Romans 7:12-14
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It's wrong use of the law that is wrong. As much as certain truths of Gods kingdom are revealed there . Seeking justification by the works of the law is what is condemned . The law can't make one perfect

Paul referred to the law of moses as a conflict to the law of grace and of the finished work on the cross....(Galatians 3:1-14)
If the law was holy and good according to Romans 7:12-14,why was it replaced and ousted by a brand new law?
Why did Paul vehemently condemn its practices in Galatians?
Now why was he seeking to justify the same law he condemned before a roman audience?
Was it becos of the romans level of understanding?
Remember i sighted a scripture in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 where he had to convert to a jew and practise judaism just to teach the audience he met....
Such audience wud have been unable to comprehend the gospel of grace...hence he used and justified the laws of moses just so that he cud win souls for the sake of the gospel ...That does not in reality, imply that he was in support of the law of moses....
Its like a preacher who for the sake of the gospel decided to be a drug-dealer in a cartel just to win souls for christ!
does that make him a drug dealer in reality?
Absolutely not...his motive was to win souls for christ and he used whatever means necessary to achieve that goal!!

I think you are really confusing and complicating ur stand....at one hand you said the law is good and holy and at the same time u said u r not a law advocate or that the law made nothing perfect.....why do you double-speak?
If the law was not perfect,it simply means ALL the laws of moses were not perfect....hence it was set aside and nullified!
Its either you are a law advocate or a grace advocate....you can not mix oil with water....you can not seek to blend the grace gospel and the law of grace...!!
Its that simple!!!

HateU2:
Iffa talk now, dey will call me lez. Make I sharaap but OP, maybe she's Bi. What's wrong wit dat

Everything is wrong with a bi....will you marry or have a relationship with a guy who is bi-sex.ual?

Joagbaje:
Mark 7:11
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Why . It's a spiritual principle .thats why You find paul addressing same issue .

Ephesians 6:2-3
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Long life doesn't come by prayer for it . There a principle . Honor your parents. Either old or New Testament . It's a kingdom principle

Do you need the law to make you honor your parents?
If u brought up honoring parents as a yardstick to partake in the law of moses,why did you leave out the rest of the laws?
Are they not as important as honoring ur parents?
See Sir,If you have the love of Christ,you will be considerate and loving to others not just your own parents but to everyone you come across....

Just like i stated,Paul used the law of Moses wen he spoke to a particular audience due to their level of comprehension....
(Acts 28:23;1 Corinthians 9:19-23)

Paul never supported the law or its practices....he Vehemently condemned it in Galatians, tried to strike a balance in Romans because the audience were staunch law followers,
Like i said,Paul did dis in order to pass the message of the gospel....Thats why Peter at a time got so confused about Paul's methods cos according to him,it was "confusing at times".....
And who wud blame Peter...cos Paul wud teach the law of Christ to a different audience and still taught the law of Moses to a different audience entirely... Same law of Moses that he always condemned and disapproved in Galatians....

And according to 1 Corinthians 9:19-23,he devised a means where by he became a law-abider just to win over dose who were under the law,same thing with the weak, and those outside the law just for the sake of the gospel.....

He knew he was not weak or under the law of Moses or outside the law of Moses ,neither was he in support of any of them.....but the only way to get to these set of audience was to behave and act like them just to win dem over to christ .....

So Oga don't be deceived....Paul knew what he was doing....unfortunately,You mistakenly or erroneously thought he was in support of the law...

Joagbaje:
You're not pardoned . It's still an insult . Control yourself. And exercise fruit. Just tell me you don't agree where you don't agree.

Well thats your problem sir.....if you call that an insult,wait till you find out the words i would have used to describe you...
I can not ask if i agree or not because you keep twisting and manipulating scriptures just because you feel like it and you think i will be cute with you?
...you are totally mistaken...And as for control,replying you can only mean i have exercised some restraint....inasmuch as we are discussing bible knowledge,i expected you to prove your outrageous claims about tithes sighting scriptures and rightly dividing the word of God...its the least i expect from a minister of the gospel....unfortunately,you let me down with ur obvious twisting and manipulations and you expect me to be clap hands for you? smh

Joagbaje:
I never told you I recieve such . So stop getting personal with me. Focus on the topic with your bible .

Personal? you call wat i just said personal?

Okay lets see if i get u...
You were the one who quoted 1 Corinthians 9: 13-14 to buttress ur collection of tithes,
after informing you that dose "tithes" were part of a nullified law which u agreed,
you den deceptively decided to go on a memory lane saying it was a pre-law tithe ......after explaining to you that you can not hold on to a pre-law tithe and still want to use the practices of a nullified law of moses,You now ask that am being personal with you?
You see that's the issue i have with you and ur likes,Instead of responding to the question,you start moving on a merry go round acting like the victim.....
i repeat....
why do u still seek to be paid with the tithe that was part of a nullified law rather than the pre-law tithe which you claim to practice....?
Attempt the question with scriptures Sir!

Joagbaje:
Principles are forever. Either they exist in the law ,pre law or after the law.

Really? So you are saying that the lord God who said that the law was obsolete and nullified didn't know what he was saying or doing right?
Since you are loosely using that word principles,please answer the following questions...
Do you carry out the procedures of the burnt offering as prescribed in the Law?
Have you been physically circumcised?
Do you Offer only unblemished animals?
Do you carry out the procedures of the guilt and sin offerings?
Do you bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Law of Moses?
Do you burn incense every day?
Do you bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on the Sabbath?
Do you eat the Passover lamb with unleavened bread and bitter herbs on the night of the 14th of Nisan?

I hope you know these are "principles" contained in the laws of Moses.....so do you observe dese principles?
If your answers to this questions are negative,then your conviction or practice of tithes,in my opinion,is WRONG!

Joagbaje:
Most probably ,what does it matter. Tithing is a principle discovered by revelation . Just as any sacred discovery. If you do it , you gain the benefit ,if you don't you miss the benefit. Is prayer an obligation ? Is fasting an obligation ?

Most probably?...are you for real?
Or are you having second thoughts already about ur pre-law tithe convictions?
So now according to your own revelations,tithing is no longer a "law",or "pre-law" or "after law".....its now a principle discovered by revelation ?

Well if that's ur own revelation about tithes,then carry on..that's ur own conviction...but don't use ur "revelations on tithes" to impose on "believers" sighting a nullified and obsolete law to use as ur base while using malachi 3:10 to make threats....Its totally deceptive!!

Benefits? Wat do i need benefits from an obsolete law called tithe wen am already God's "pikin" through his son jesus and a "joint heir" of his abundance ...Oga Joagbaje,You are seriously and unfortunately belittling God ohhh....

Prayers and fasting are not only scriptural,its a way of the christian life....you can not communicate with the father without prayers...its part of our lifestyle as believers...or are you equating tithes with prayers and fasting??

Joagbaje:
Principles are constant . They may be seen in the law or before the law. They a spiritual secrets revealed through revelations. So some principles in the law are still applicable..

Sir Joagbaje....Principles are "laid down laws"....You cannot totally depend on the Rhema without the corresponding Logos
....Please rightly divide the word of God and stop using "revelations and principles" without logos...it wud sound as if you are subjecting ur revelations or principles on other believers....If that's ur revelation,good....use it for YOURSELF ....don't make it sound like ur own revelations sud be adhered to by all and sundry....So far,you have not used any scripture to prove ur "revelations" or "principles".....does it mean the "scriptures" are no longer used as your reference point?

Joagbaje:
So some principles in the law are still applicable..

I had to individually answer this cos am really astonished and perplexed.....Wat do you mean by " SOME principles in the law are still applicable" ? Did u just read up wat u said?
Who are you and wat powers do u have to choose obsolete laws that God has already annulled and nullified?
Are you saying that God made a blunder by calling dose laws "weak" and "useless"?

Joagbaje:
Not everything in the law is wrong . Is the law evil ? There are principles not the law which are kingdom principles . They are not done away even though the law is done away because they are spiritual principle.

Sir,let me answer you using the very words of Hebrew 7,......
If the law was not evil ,why was it labelled obsolete ?
If the law was not wrong ,why was it declared weak and useless according to Hebrews 7:18?
If some of the laws were perfect like u r alluding,why did God replace it with another law?

For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. Hebrews 7:18-19

You can not know better than God....he knew the reasons why he set aside the laws and that's because it was based on the fact that the law made nothing perfect !!

Joagbaje:
Have you wondered why Paul quote from Old Testament? For example : honor thy father . Why would he quote law for people who are not under the law

Because it's a principle . To honor to care and to respect parents. Isaac had to make his son cook for him do that he could bless him. . Moses gave a law on honoring parents . The Jews nullified it Jesus came along and addressed it. And he rebuked them for hindering people from taking care of parents

U sud know that wen Paul spoke to a particular audience in the scriptures,he had to use the laws of Moses as a guide.....in fact,he actually used the laws of Moses to preach Christ to his audience ....(Ref:Acts 28:23)
Paul knew that particular audience were still neck-deep into the laws of Moses....so directly teaching them the gospel of Christ wud have made no sense to them due to their level of understanding....
Paul did everything to ensure that the gospel of Christ was taught whether by the laws of Moses or any other means necessary...
Please Read....

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

I hope u now understand why Paul kept using the laws of Moses...Its was for the sake of the gospel to be preached....So wen next you come across a scripture where he used the laws of Moses,know that it was for the sake of the gospel and not becos he believed in the law !!!

Joagbaje:
You have a choice . Every principle carry grace and blessing when applied . If you pray you get the benefit , if you fast ,give alms ,tithe you get the benefit and the grace such Carry . If you don't do it you miss the benefit and grace it carries.

A principle that has no logos is man-made....a law that has no scripture backing is a scam and will never stand the test of time....Ur revelations and principles were concocted and formulated....If you think am wrong prove it with scriptures or i will classify ur principles as MAN-MADE !!

Joagbaje:
It's your opinion but it can't be imposed on others .

I do not remember saying am imposing a generous and genuine way of giving according to the scriptures to others...
Please highlight it for me....if you are sure i said so....

Joagbaje:
But you must know that there are different kinds of giving in Gods kingdom .
Giving of Offering Old covenant
Giving of tithe, Old covenant
Giving of Alms Old covenant
Giving to parents (honor) Old covenant
Giving to your prophet or MOG Old covenant
Giving for projects in Gods house . MAN-MADE

According to the scriptures,Paul teaches about the grace behind giving......generosity,which is giving without expecting anything in return, is not limited to your parents or the poor or ministers of the gospel or projects in the "body of christ".....Giving generously is unlimited and its based on LOVE FOR MANKIND and the heart of the giver .....

Notice that i omitted alms,tithe and offerings.....that's because such gestures were part of the nullified laws of moses....you cannot give what is required or what is imposed on you.....that's slavery and never based on love which replaced the laws of moses Romans 13:8-10

Genuine giving or generosity as practiced by the early believers were done for EVERYONE and out of LOVE (Ref: Acts 4: 32 - 37)
Now tell me if the one practiced by the early believers did not make sense to you?
But that's a choice for you....and you are free to do urs based on ur supposed revelations or principle that have no scripture inclinations !!

Joagbaje:
interestingly ,The scripture you quoted in 2corinthians only dealt with just one of these giving but We must do all these giving . It's not a standard to cover every giving . It was a project before the church they were raising money for relief . It's just an aspect of giving . That's not offering ,that's not tithe . That's not to cover for giving to the pastor or alms to the poor etc .One giving does not nulify the other . One giving does not cover for the others

If your giving is not based on 2 Corinthians 9:7,then am afraid you don't really understand what it means to be generous because generosity covers ALL AND SUNDRY
This is a christ-like kind of giving which is genuine,love-based and self-less!
And this was the same kind of giving that the early believers practiced,same giving that the believers in Macedonia practiced,same giving that paul the apostle admonished the Corinthians to emulate from the Macedonians....same giving that was explicitly written in 2 corinthians 9:7.

Please tell me,do you need a law for you to give to the poor?
do you need a principle for you to give for a project in church?
Do you need a law to offer support for the minister or pastor of the assembly you attend?
If you,as a believer,who has the love of Christ in you,wud u need a principle or law to compel or subject you to give willingly as you have decided in your heart?

Joagbaje:
When we do things contained in the law , it's because they are kingdom principles not because the law say so.it could have been revealed in the law though . If I don't commit murder it's because it's a principle not because the law say so.

Sir you DO NOT do THE things as contained in the law of Moses because it stands nullified..In other words,you can not go back and pick from it because God has instructed you not to.....please stop complicating ur self and making a mockery of the bible!!
Do you need a law for you NOT TO COMMIT MURDER ?
Haven't you studied the scriptures 1 Corinthians 13 about LOVE?
Don't you know that observing a SINGLE law implies that you are mocking the finished work ON the cross?
If righteousness could be gained through the law,then Christ died for NOTHING!! (Galatians 2:21)

Joagbaje:
Firstly I forgive your insults . It's your level of understanding ... For the scriptures I quoted one earlier . And if you study carefully you will see Paul in several occasion quoting from the law. Isn't it funny that a man who seem to condemn the deed of the law is quoting the law . And the funniest part was that he quoted it even to Gentiles who were never under the law.

Well like i said earlier,that's ur problem not mine......and i cant say the same for ur own level of understanding.....
If you studied Paul's teaching every where he went,you wud notice and observe that he used the laws of Moses to teach the gospel of Christ...(Ref:Acts 28:23)
This was due to the level of understanding of the audience he met....

Paul knew that particular audience were still neck-deep into the laws of Moses....so directly teaching them the gospel of Christ wud have made no sense to them....
Paul did everything in his powers to ensure that the gospel of Christ was thought whether by the laws of Moses or any other means...

For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to ALL, that I might win more of them. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become ALL things to all PEOPLE, that by ALL MEANS I might SAVE SOME. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings. (1 Corinthians 19-23)

Joagbaje:
What of Jacob tithing? was it war spoil? Why tenth why not 5% only God knows the mystery behind it !

Ohh My lord.....Common Sir...you can do better than dis....
Jacob tithe?
A swindler and manipulator who stole his brother's birth-right?
So Jacob the cheater who tot he cud make a pact with God by offering a tenth of his belongings has now become your reference to tithe?
Did you really study that scripture very well?
Did the lord make a pact with him or did he do so on his own volition?

Joagbaje:
That will be highly appreciated if you allow scripture to speak for itself .

I offered you a scripture to that....Pls go back to my earlier post....unless you intentionally decided to overlook it....

Joagbaje:
Don't be too full of your opinion. And make post with humility , you may just be wrong . So have that at the back of your mind .I'm a tither and I've done this from child . With strong conviction .

Am not full of my opinion sir and am not proud....am just astonished,perplexed and bewildered that you teach such a weak and twisted doctrine to a congregation of believers....If that's ur conviction,then back it up with scriptures so that dose believers can go search it in their bible and be convinced....
But telling them you received a revelation to tithe without the backing of the logos is clearly not from God but a well-concocted man-made doctrine!
For the umpteenth time Sir,prove ur revelations and principles with corresponding scriptures from the bible!!!

Joagbaje:
Where did I equate myself to Levites . Did they have what I have in christ?

Sir Joagbaje....don't make me see you as a dishonest person.....You referred yourself earlier as a levite sighting 1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Tell me you have forgotten what you said and i will understand....but don't say u didn't refer to urself as a levite of our time !!

Joagbaje:
... I will respond to other post later

Waiting.......

well different strokes for different folks....there are some guys who won't mind helping out deir wives but it sud not become a law or an imposition....there must be mutual respect....there are so many tins a lady can get from a guy....she only needs 2 b polite and kind with her requests...

ettaetta:
dats some how weird. Is it really possible for a normal girl to do dat?

no way...I tink ur ex may have had a break up b4 now,she den got involved wit either a bi-curious or l.esbian friend who introduced her to that act...d friend must have lured ur emotionally unstable ex using d flimsy excuse dat guys are not to b trusted and dat ladies will Neva cheat.....they may have been indulging in dat act until u met her....
sorry bro,just move on....hopefully,someone beta will come along d way....

iykekelvins:
[color=#099999]See how you just concluded that she's a lesbian


Cus of some pictures, Hommie go get you girl back[/color]

Wats a l.esbian porn video doing in her fone....?

Eastbay:
Sir,
Just watch the fraudulent pastor who staged a HIV healing and was exposed some time ago to defend the indefensible.

You have asked concrete questions based on scripture.
Watch him tune his reply in line with what he thinks or feels, not what the bible says.

People like him are the reason why I do not want to be attached to any church because these so called men of themselves care only about one thing:themselves.
Hence they will distort the word of God for their own benefit, including payment of tithe.
It is clear that as an New Testament convert, you are not bound by the so called tenets of the law yet they will ask you to pay tithe and add threats on top.

My brother,Personally am in awe about what they insinuate in the bible....i start wondering if they are using a bible different from mine....i tot i cud reason with him but its obvious he has to defend tithes with all his life since he benefits from it....unfortunately for him,am not ready to allow him continue to manipulate the scriptures and keep offering atheists and newly converts a reason to mock God because of tithes...its really unfortunate..

Joagbaje:
I'm talking about the parrallel. Welfarrare for ministers under the law came from tithes and offerings. And if you say the welfare should come from support . Is it still not in tithes and offerings ? Or where would the money come from ?

Sir its now obvious that you don't seem to have any verse to backup ur "deceptive" claims (please pardon my use of that description cos am astonished by wat you just put up)...hence ur defense holds no strength...

Now you said the tithe you practice is pre-law....and you agreed that the law of moses was "nullified".....in other words,tithe under the law of moses has been nullified.....why do u still seek to be paid with the tithe that was part of a nullified law rather than the pre-law tithe which you claim to practice....? Does that make spiritual sense to you?

hence am only seeing support for those who teach the gospel....i don't see tithes and offerings like u claim because these are terms from the law of moses,which both of us have agreed has been nullified? right?

Joagbaje:
[s]Principles don't have to be written laws. Offering, tithes , alms ,prayer ,worship , fasting etc are all spiritual principles discovered by revelations . [/s]
Abel and Cain didn't require a written law to give offerings before God. Its a spiritual principle .

Sir why did u omit the burnt from the offering....u sud have included both....so in other words,since burnt offerings were pre-law like you insinuated for tithes,does that mean burnt offerings are permitted or better still do you carry out burnt offerings to God since according to you,its a pre-law and a spiritual principle?

Joagbaje:
Of course Abrham was the father of faith . Who's faith we follow. You've answered the question. He tithed

In other words we are to do what abraham did since he was the father of faith....we sud lie right? commit adultery like Abraham did to his maid...?

the practice of abraham's faith was based on his belief in God.....Which God counted as righteousness on Abraham's behalf and admonished all believers to emulate....this faith was based on his conviction in God....that's all....don't add what is not there.....

for the benefit of those reading,abraham went to rescue his cousin lot from the hands of kings....he came back victorious with his cousin,and spoils of war and king Melchizedek offered him food and wine...in appreciation,Abraham gave him a tenth of the war spoils and gave the rest of the spoils to the king of sodom....remember Abraham didn't offer [b]his belongings or his income as tithers or tithe collectors wud want people to believe.... [/b]

I have a question for you sir....was Abraham obligated or instructed by God to offer a tenth of the war spoils to king Melchizedek?

Again i ask u sir....do u carry out burnt offerings or do u carry out circumcision ...cos both are pre-laws just like ur pre-law tithes ...?

Joagbaje:
tithe was different . God gave replacement for the others .

Ohh really?
So based on ur OWN scriptures,God replaced the others but not tithes ....Going by ur own thesis,God somehow erroneously left out tithes but gave replacements to the others?
Pls Sir Joagbaje,wud u be kind enuff to get me scriptures that buttress ur wild and outrageous claims?
Until you are able to provide scriptures to that effect,i consider ur claims highly deceptive and manipulative......

Joagbaje:
I won't use the word collection ,the word giving is more appropriate . We give tithe . Nobody is a tithe collector .it belongs to God .

According to your pastor and mentor,Pastor chris,(hope am not mistaken) in one of his "question and answer series" said..... "tithe is not giving,tithe is a requirement ...you don't give tithes,you pay tithes".......
Going by his admission,tithe is tithe and giving is giving.....you can not give what is required...

I give based on 2 Corinthians 8 and 2 Corinthians 9:7.....which is paul encouraged the Corinthians to practice,calling it the "gift of giving"(2 Corinthians 8:1-12)
This is wat you sud be teaching ur listeners or in the assembly....about the "gift of giving" and giving as "you have decided in ur heart"(2 Corinthians 9:7)
Not a failed entity called tithes that only drags 'fresh' believers away from God.....

Joagbaje:
The whole bible is inspired of God. And relevant scriptures can be quoted based on the principle they represent . The law is not evil . It has

great kingdom principles

we only need to know what is applicable and what is not. The principles in the law are not really wrong in themselves as long as a man does not seek to be justified by them .

Tell me what i haven't heard from you oga Joagbaje.....So now you have now reversed ur earlier stance about the law of moses...i tot you said tithe was pre-law and any other tithe has been nullified along with the laws of moses....
You have suddenly brought it back to life after realizing that ur acclaimed pre-law tithe had no base or foundation to stand on....hence,you simply had to UN-nullify the laws of moses to use as ur base to tithe calling it an eternal principle ....Incredible!!!

Joagbaje:
Tithes ,offerings ,alms giving , honoring your father , prayer , worship , good works ,etc are all principles in Gods kingdom . Either old or new covenant they remain .

Sir what did u just say?
both old and new covenants remain? chisos....
Okay.....please nah i need scriptures from you to back dese preposterous claims....so according to you,the old covenant that has been nullified and set aside still remains?
May God have mercy on you sir for manipulating his very words just for u to justify tithes ...haaaaaaaaaaaa

Joagbaje:
We are of abrahamic faith before the old covenant existed .

Abraham's faith as sud be practiced by believers is not hinged on his meeting and sharing of the war spoils with king Melchizedek and the king of sodom ....
its was based on Abraham's unalloyed conviction of God even when God had not yet fulfilled what was promised to him...he still stood firm and staggered not....thats the kind of faith God requires from believers....it wasnt based on his lifestyle or his acts which u are forcefully holding unto just defend tithes....

Joagbaje:
Beautiful , and as long as there is a high priest there must be tithing .

Wrong.....once again...smh

For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices ; thus it is necessary for this priest(Jesus) also to have something to offer. Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, “See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.” But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. Hebrews 8:3-6

Christ priesthood was not setup to receive or offer gifts cos it was based on better promises and a mediating bridge between God and man...not to collect tithes according to Oga Joagbaje scriptures....chai

Joagbaje:
Not so. No priesthood is higher than Melchizedek . Christ is a high priest in his order

I dont need to argue with you about which is higher....i will allow scriptures to lecture u....cos it was based on an oath that the jesus christ was made a high priest

And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath ,
21 but this one(JESUS CHRIST) was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath , which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 7: 20 - 28

You can see from the highlighted the supremacy of the priesthood of jesus christ over other priests including that of Melchizedek....Unless you want to tell me King Melchizedek offered himself as a sacrifice to deliver man from sin or that he has been exalted above the heavens....

If these scriptures does not open ur eyes about which priesthood is higher,nothing else will.....

Joagbaje:
I'm not a Levite. I'm a Nairaland poster like you . And a christian

Then stop equating or referring to yourself as a levite (parallel or trapezium )

Joagbaje:
And where does the money come from?.

i dont understand ur question....r u implying that money was never in existence during the levitical period?

Joagbaje:
.
Tithing is one of God kingdom principles . It existed before the law. And never nullified.

U r totally wrong sir....tithing was never a God's kingdom principle....principles are based on laid down laws....and i believe u have biblical scriptures to prove where dose laws were stated right?

...where was it stated pre-law that the people sud tithe(and please don't bring up Abraham jingle into this cos he never tithed)....sorry sir.....there is no such scripture because you erroneously or deceptively inserted it there....

U said it existed before the law......and i ask in astonishment,are you sir implying that any thing or act or law that existed before the law was given was NOT nullified?

Are you implying that circumcision was not nullified since it was pre-law?

If you said tithe was pre-law,why do u justify tithes collection using the supposed nullified laws of moses to buttress ur reasons for tithing i.e malachi 3:10,numbers 18:10?

Finally where in the new covenant did paul say that tithe was a God's kingdom principle or are u d one that constructed and inserted it there?

please i need ur honest answers to these questions.....

Joagbaje:
Levitical priesthood was only an order for a period. Melchizedek order existed before the law . Jesus is our high priest not in Levitical order but Melchizedek order. Which is everlasting.

It was more than just an order....it was contained in the old covenant....which has been nullified.....we all know jesus is the high priest based on better promises and an oath from God.....the comparison of the priesthood of jesus and that of Melchizedek is based on the fact that "their priesthood abides continually"..

...but the priesthood of jesus christ is far better than that of other priests before now including that of Melchizedek because its founded on better promises,word of an oath from God and an intercession for all who believe...! (reference:Hebrews 7:15-28)

So how does the Melchizedek order or levitical order make you a levite sir?
Please sir try again!

Jozzy4:
then are you a fake Melchizedek ?

Melchizedek collect spoils of war , u collect cash

Melchizedek collect spoils of war from Abraham once , NOT EVERY WEEK !

even the blind can see the fraud here .

When i hear ministers of the gospel compare or refer to them selves as levites,i cringe...
All because u want to be the one to receive tithes forgetting that you are operating from an advanced and equipped covenant which is based on grace and love.....Its very sad when pastors or ministers who sud be passing d undiluted gospel of the word wud bend and manipulate the gospel just to satisfy themselves....
Thank God,the word of God was not given ONLY to pastors....imagine the enslavement that wud have engulfed the body of christ..God forbid!
Dear Christians pls endeavor to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth......2 Timothy 2:15
Let no one deceive or manipulate you....we are no longer under the covenant of old....but we are under a perfect and beautiful covenant where Christ is the high priest and blesses those who believe in him....Christ came to preach love not burden or fear....
Give cheerfully and generously to a cause or support for the assembly you attend
....give to people who have no means of livelihood...
....assist a person you never knew...
Above All show love to ALL men cos God is love!! Happy sunday!!

Joagbaje:
It's a simple parallel. The verse made it clear that as the Levites get welfare from tithes and offerings same goes for ministers.

Sir pls stop misquoting and taking those verses out of context....its very explicit from the verses that just as "the levites received wat was from the temple,ministers fed from their teachings...." In other words, ministers are to be supported as they teach the gospel....which is totally different from wat the levites obtained....cos they received food from the tithes of farm produce and d cattle herd which is contained in the law of moses in accordance with the old covenant ....i ask again...are you sir still under the old covenant..or under a levitical priesthood?

You compare ministers or refer to them as levites forgetting that levites operated from an annulled and invalid covenant which contains the laws of moses.....dere is no reason whatsoever for such comparison.....its like comparing the law of moses to the law of grace...immpossicant

inasmuch as u try in vain to make a parallel combo,u sud know both are not operating from the same covenant....which renders such comparison invalid and to an extent manipulative....Pls try again!

Joagbaje:
1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? . . .14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

pls how does Dis verse in any way equate or refer ministers of d gospel to d levites....?
d verse 13 refers 2 d priest and levites of d old covenant... r u sir still under d old covenant?
Verse 14,inasmuch as d Lord ordained dose who preach d gospel to leave off it...in oda words b supported 4 d work dey carry out,how does Dis equate pastors or ministers wit d levites....?
I repeat sir,wit all due respect,we sud stop teaching or preaching wat God has not said....its completely erroneous... I wud not want 2 use inappropriate words but I believe u get d message....dat verse never equated or referred 2 pastors or ministers of d gospel as d levites of our time...its completely ridiculous 2 say so....smh

tayebest:
I dont take all this PDP goons serious anymore na... They can waste their salary to give us lie chop

Did you not read where he said it was some power-hungry APC members that were responsible for causing disaffection between atiku and buhari??

ednut1:
u subscribed for a bb data plan nd u probably had ur back up to google server on. try 3500. 9gig. its da bomb

U r absolutely right....that subscription is for blackberry fones....wen used on android or pc,its half d 3gb data...

jayriginal:
You're a Bayelsa man not a Levite.