₦airaland Forum

what Muslims claim

No other book in the world can match the Qur'an , The astonishing fact about this book of ALLAH is that it has remained unchanged, even to a dot, over the last fourteen hundred years. , No variation of text can be found in it. You can check this for yourself by listening to the recitation of Muslims from different parts of the world. (Basic Principles of Islam, Abu Dhabi, UAE: The Zayed Bin Sultan Al Nahayan Charitable & Humanitarian Foundation, 1996, p. 4, bold added)

The truth

Subhii al-Saalih is an Islamic scholar in this area. He summarizes the differences into seven categories [3].

Differences in grammatical indicator (i`raab).

Differences in consonants.

Differences in nouns as to whether they are singular, dual, plural, masculine or feminine.

Differences in which there is a substitution of one word for another.

Differences due to reversal of word order in expressions where the reversal is meaningful in the Arabic language in general or in the structure of the expression in particular.

Differences due to some small addition or deletion in accordance with the custom of the Arabs.

Differences due to dialectical peculiarities.

What is clear from this list is that the differences are more than just differences in pronunciation or dialect.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#history

Now babs,a snippet at the differences.

Appendix A: Samarqand MSS VS 1924 Egyptian Edition

http://answering-islam.org.uk/PQ/A1.htm#AppendA

remember this exercise is just to prove your claim of the Koran remaining the same even to a dot to be false.
since you cannot understand how there could be slight variations in reporting an incidence without losing the main message and make baseless claims that the Koran is without such slight insignificant variations in transmission.(,some major I might add).
Now you know the Imam has fed you lies all these years.

So my people we can see from these authentic Muslim hadiths that the Koran has undergone various manipulations,additions and subtractions,contrary to their claims

Having now read many of the hadiths and other sources it is obvious that these Muslim claims are an exaggeration and have no support at all from the authoritative hadiths. In fact the hadiths record the opposite. They say that Muhammad never standardized the Qur'an and allowed variation and that the early Muslims memorized the Qur'an slightly differently. Then Uthman and a team of others edited and standardized one version of the Qur'an and had all others burnt. I have no doubt that the collection of the Qur'an that Uthman made is one good record of what Muhammad recited. However it was not the only good collection that was made, and it was not a collection made by Muhammad.

so next time you hear Muslims tell you this

The text of the Qur'an is entirely reliable. It has been as it is, unaltered, unedited, not tampered with in any way, since the time of its revelation. (M. Fethullah Gulen, Questions this Modern Age Puts to Islam. London: Truestar, 1993. p.58)

It (the Qur'an) was memorised by Mohammed and then dictated to his companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters (suras) have ever been changed over the centuries. (Understanding Islam and the Muslims, The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Inc. (pamphlet) Nov. 1991).

Refer to these hadiths.

In Summary

Muhammad never finalized how the Qur'an was to be recited and allowed variation.

There were real variations in the way the Qur'an was being memorized and recited after Muhammad's death. This caused problems.
Uthman and a team of others did a certain amount of editing to produce a standard text of the Qur'an.

Then Uthman ordered that all other Qur'ans be burnt and his version be made the only standard version for the Muslim world. Oral and written tradition now had to conform to Uthman's standard version.

Some of the Companions, like Ibn Mas'ud, were not happy with Uthman's actions and suffered for it.

I promised 3 hadiths,now 3 times's the charm

Mishkat Al-Masabih: book 8, ch. 3, last hadith [4]

Ibn Abbas said he asked Uthman[1] what had induced them to deal with al-Anfal[2] which is one of the mathani[3] and with Bara`a[4] which is one with a hundred verses, joining them without writing the line containing "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,"[5] and putting it among the seven long ones. When he asked again what had induced them to do that, Uthman replied, "Over a period suras with numerous verses would come down to God's messenger, and when something came down to him he would call one of those who wrote and tell him to put these verses in the sura in which such and such is mentioned, and when a verse came down he would tell them to put it in the sura in which such and such is mentioned. Now al-Anfal was one of the first to come down in Medina and Bara`a was among the last of the Qur'an to come down, and the subject-matter of the one resembled that of the other, so because God's messenger was taken without having explained to us whether it belonged to it, for that reason I joined them without writing the line containing `In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful,' and put it among the long suras."

Footnotes for the above hadith

Uthman, the third successor to Muhammad.
al-Anfal is Sura (chapter) 8 in the Qur'an.
mathani: suras with less than 100 verses.
Bara`a, also called Tawba, is Sura 9.
Every sura in the Qur'an is introduced by "In the name of God, " except Sura 9.

Here we see that Uthman was questioned by other Muslims as to why he did not include the phrase, "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful", at the beginning of sura 9. His answer was that Muhammad had died without explaining where sura 9 belonged and so he (Uthman) joined it to sura 8 because they "resembled" each other. What is obvious is that some Muslims felt the phrase should have been there while Uthman did not. Uthman's decision prevailed and so the phrase is not included in the modern Qur'an.

These three examples from the hadith clearly show that there was some editing involved by those who compiled the Qur'an. It is also clear that the editors' decision was not universally agreed upon; it did not have universal consensus.

2nd hadith

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 60, p. 46; book 60

Narrated Ibn Az-Zubair:

I said to `Uthman, "This Verse which is in Surat-al-Baqara: `Those of you who die and leave wives behind, without turning them out,' has been abrogated by an other Verse. Why then do you write it (in the Qur'an)?" `Uthman said, "Leave it (where it is), O son of my brother, for I will not shift anything of it (i.e. the Qur'an) from its original position."

Here we see that Ibn Az-Zubair and Uthman disagreed over whether or not a particular verse should be included in the Qur'an. Ibn Az-Zubair believed that the verse had been abrogated and therefore should be removed from the Qur'an, while Uthman was insistent that the verse should remain. Uthman had his way and so this verse is in the Qur'an today.

Oya first hadith


Bukhari: vol. 8, hadith 817, p. 539-540; book 82

Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male and female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse), and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, `By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed.

It is obvious that `Umar was convinced that stoning an adulterer was part of the Qur'an and should not be removed. The modern Qur'an however does not contain these verses. So where have they gone? These verses must have been removed by those who were in charge of the text of the Qur'an. What is clear is that `Umar remembered these verses and did not think that they should be edited out while others obviously did, and so today they are not in the modern Qur'an

babs787:
@babyosis



I know you don't have any other website part from the one above.

In order to enjoy the drama, will you kindly serve the verses in full and start from there?
Babyosis, stop pretending that you did not see my request and want you and I to dog deep into the bible so that as I am replying you here, you will also be doing same in similar thread for the bible.

babs,I said cool down.
Igbos say we use slow slow to eat hot soup.
We shall get there.
I'm still laying a foundation, with evidence from the hadiths,I hope you're following

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 468, p. 441-442; book 60

Narrated Ibrahim:

The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abi Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them,: "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?" They replied, "All of us." He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?" They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama. "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (The Night)?" Alqama recited:

'By the male and the female.' Abu Ad-Darda said,

"I testify that I heard me Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it:--

'And by Him Who created male and female.' But by Allah, I will not follow them."

The above hadith shows that Muslims from different regions disagreed as to the way a particular verse should be read. Those who learnt the Qur'an from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said surah 92:1-3 as 'By the male and the female.' while other Muslims said, 'And by Him Who created male and female.' Thus the early Muslims had not all memorized the Qur'an the same way.

Still laying my foundation.
Mohammed allowed variations.

Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 514, p. 482; book 61

Narrated Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat Al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listen to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surat which I heard you reciting ?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me". I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle taught it to me in a different way from yours". So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said, "I heard this person reciting Surat Al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!". On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him (Umar) recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way", and added, "Recite, O Umar", I recited it as he had taught me. Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever is easier for you."

Bukhuri: vol. 4, hadith 682, book 56

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) Verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same Verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "Both of you are correct, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed."
The above hadiths clearly shows that Muhammad allowed some variation regarding the reciting of the Qur'an.

Now don't tell us recitation means just prononciations,we have heard that altaquiyyah before

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/seven.htm#history
babs,allow me to lay a foundation first.
cool down,the thread just began.


N.J. Dawood is an Arabic scholar who has translated the Qur'an, he writes:

, owing to the fact that the kufic script in which the Koran was originally written contained no indication of vowels or diacritical points, variant readings are recognized by Muslims as of equal authority. (N.J. Dawood, The Koran, Middlesex, England: Penguin Books, 1983, p. 10, bold added)

babs787:
@babyosis


There is one thing I want you to do for me, try giving me all the verses you want us to talk about in full and show the contradictions therein.

You may still contact your deluded authors to give the full translation of all the translators and let us have a look at the contradictions.

Lastly, are you ready for a brief journey into the origin of the bible, the different versions we had and we are having now, the ommission of some verses and later insertions, difference in some verses of early publication etc?

Are you ready for the challenge?

Back to the topic, can I have some verses from the Quran existing in some Quran but missing in some or verses from different translators going against each other?

Thanks

don't give yourself a self inflicted heart attack
There are various Korans,do you doubt it?

are you disputing the above or you just want to play games?

Translations are bound to have very small,sometimes negligible differences that don't alter the main message of the texts.
We have had several muslim apologists boast of the one Al Koran in arabic,un touched and unchanged,just like allah delivered it unto his prophet Muhammad.

Some have gone as far as making claims that the Bible is corrupted since it has various translations even though the various English translations have no contrasting messages.

Now we know the English translations of the Koran differ in style of writing so the Muslims tell us the Koran is basically useless in any other language but arabic and claim there is only one Arabic Koran.

What do you say if I tell you that claim is false
There are different Korans and I have proof.

The five current versions of the Koran are:


The Transmitter Hafs, who is Hafs ibn Suleyman ibn Al-Mugheerah Al-Asadi Al-Kuufi (d. 180H):
His Qiraa'ah named Hafs from 'Aasim is the most popular reading of the Quran in the world today, except for some parts of Africa. Hafs was officially adopted by Egypt in 1924. His chain from 'Aasim:

He heard from 'Aasim ibn Abu Najud Al-Kuufi (d. 128H) who was Taabi'i, i.e, among the generation following the Sahaabah, who heard from Abu Abdur-Rahman Abdullah ibn Habib As-Sulami, who heard from Uthman ibn Affan and Ali ibn Abi Talib and Zayd ibn Thaabit and Ubayy ibn Ka'b, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


The Transmitter Duuri, is Abu 'Amr Hafs ibn Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz ibn Subhan Ad-Duuri Al-Baghdaadi (d. 246H):
His Qiraa'ah named Duuri from Abu 'Amr is popular in parts of Africa like Somalia, Sudan as well as in other parts. His chain of from Abu 'Amr:

He heard from Abu Muhammad Yahya ibn Mubarak ibn Mugheerah Yazidiyy (d. 202H), who heard from Abu 'Amr Zuban ibn 'Ala Maziniyy Al-Busriyy (d. 154H), who heard from the Qiraa'aat from Sahaabis Ali and Uthman and Abu Musa and Umar and Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Zayd ibn Thaabit, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


The Transmitter Warsh, who is Abu Saeed Uthman ibn Saeed Al-Misri, nicknamed Warsh, (d. 197H):
HIs Qiraa'ah named Warsh from Naafi' is popular in North Africa. His chain from Naafi':

He heard from Naafi' ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Abu Nu'aim Al-Madani (d. 169H), who heard from Abu Ja'far Yazid ibn Al-Qa'qaa' and Abu Dawud Abdur-Rahman ibn Hurmuz Al-A'raj and Shaybah ibn Nisah Al-Qaadhi and Abu Abdullah Muslim ibn Jundub Al-Hudhali and Abu Rawh Yazid ibn Ruman, who heard from Abu Hurairah and Ibn Abbaas and Abdullah ibn 'Ayyaash ibn Abi Rabii'ah, who heard from Ubayy ibn Ka'b, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


The Transmitter Suusi:
His Qiraa'ah named Suusi from Abu 'Amr is also found around the world in small parts.


The Transmitter Qaaluun, who is Imaam Qaaluun:
His Qiraa'ah named Qaaluun from Naafi' is popular in places like Libya in Africa. His chain from Naafi':

He heard from Naafi' ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Abu Nu'aim Al-Madani (d. 169H), who heard from Abu Ja'far Yazid ibn Al-Qa'qaa', who heard from Abdullah ibn Abbaas and Abu Hurairah, who heard from Ubayy ibn Ka'b and Zayd ibn Thaabit, who heard from the Prophet (PBUH).


In case Muslim readers should be greatly concerned: The variances between these different versions of the Koran are generally quite small and minor, although there are a substantial number of them. Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun has published a version of the (Hafs) Koran which contains the variant readings from the 10 Accepted Readers in its margins. About 2/3 of the ayat (verses) have some sort of variant reading. The great majority are differences in the vowels inserted in certain words (remembering that the early written kufic texts of the Koran did not include vowels or diacritical marks). There appears to be only one difference that might represent a significant effect on belief, that in surah 2:184. There are many Islamic scholars' discussions about these many differences. As an example of one, in Hafs, surah 2:140 reads taquluna, while in Warsh, that text is in surah 2:139 and reads yaquluna. Another example: Hafs surah 2:214 reads yaquula while Warsh surah 2;212 reads yaquulu. Muslim scholars agree that such variations do not seriously alter the meaning of statements made in the Koran.

.

http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txo/koran.htm

The Bible says on the issue of adultery.

Lolabbey:
salam alyk,

d sender of this msg shld endeavor to say astagfirulah till the end of the world/

islam preaches and teaches peace,we shld avoid misconception about this religion.

i advise u read thoroughly a translated version of the holy Quran
masalam,God bless u as u adhere

The same texts that become practically useless after interpretations?
which one should he get,Yusuf Ali,Dawud,picthall,shakir,momin,parvez,Asad,Amjad,ahmad,shabir or the other 20 translations?

olabowale:
@+Osisi: You seem to be the one that my dart pin/arrow is eager to strike this morning. The rest of your buddies are not worth a feather weight based on their comments, especially Mr. Cgift of Ikorodu Oniwo! Now +Osisi, if some one were to write in a journal that you fed 1000 Muslims breakfasts and dinners in the month of Ramadan, in New York. It could be taken as a true event that you undertook, since you are in the US and have the chance and way with it all to travel and feed people.

But when one were to look thoroughly, putting into considerations your personality and your great love for Islam, then one will have to be cautious in believing such a goodwill gesture coming from you. One may just say that if you give them food, then it is either to take advantage of them, thereby one will have to see if there was any outbreak of any malady, collera, diarrhea, or other form of sickness in the month of Ramadan in NY. For those who know you, the likes of davidylan, your cohorts in open hatred of Islam, then people like me, who is a Muslim and will not take any food from your kitchen, unless am there watching you, know that the story is a lie.

This is the same condition with the Muslims reactions to your weak hadith that you are fond of quoting. See. My Bukhari is different from your Bukhari.

I was wondering where all this tales by moonlight was driving to.

Allah again

First he allowed the Injil and Torah to be corrupted after confirming them
Then he allowed the uncorrupted ones to be lost
Then he smuggled in Mo into the corrupted text
Then he allowed the Al koran to be interpreted by various interpreters in English knowing these were useless texts
Then he allowed goats under aisha's bed to feast on some koran written on cocoyam leaves
Then he abrogated some Koran texts
Then he allowed the 3rd abi 4th caliph to burn all the previous Korans and produce one Koran
Then allowed some fake,weak and strong hadiths.
Then he refers to himself as "we"

Weak hadith ko,steroidal hadith ni

olabowale:
@+Osisi: If someone is running after the other, it is you who have been hopping after me. But thats another issue entirely. I am just very busy on an important matter which is taking the 100% of my time. I would have presented the supplication of Ibrahiim (as), and the answer of his Creator to that supplication. It is them that you will see, with your two eyes, but I want you to employ your inner eye, as well, to see that the Blanket does not cover disbelieving folks like Jews, Christians and all types of Idol worshippers and yes, those who do not be lieve in the existence of God, as well. Give up till Thursday to weather the storms. I will be back.

And its three heads of god, to you!

ojigbijigbi

God for you hon.(I won't try to understand your gabble)
Now can you answer the posters question or get off this thread

away4real:
@ bicey, my 2 cents to your post is that we all understand your point, am a pickin of God myself and attimes i think some christain folks are over zealous, but hey the word is tolerance. We live in a secular world and we should tolerate each other, if he says what you don't like please ignore him and in your heart pray for him.

I don't know how long you've been on nairaland.
It only takes a few posts for the so called tolerant muslims to show their true color.
keep reading

mdsocks:
If any pastor makes any godforsaken noise in a molue


I[b] will throw him out of the window [/b]

ROFL
Mdsocks,one doesn't have to be a pastor to preach in a bus.
all you need to do is whip out your Al Koran and start your own.
let's see who will win

It may even make frontpage news

"Christian and Muslim preachers battle it out on a moving molue"

Even the drug salesmen that come in selling their medicines,if it's not against the law and the driver and conductor allow them,people should let them do their business and feed their families.

dafidixone:
To add to your point I wonder what the poster will say to Muslims at Hamadiya in Agege who turns public road built with tx payer money to Praying ground. What are we realy saying.

If the Word of God is not preached in a Bus where else will you hear it?

My brother na wa o.
We are constantly being forced to endure these things for the sake of tolerance.
Muslims praying in the streets don't offend me one bit,if the law permits them to block streets,let them do so .They can pass out tracts and invite me to a mosque service and I won't be rude in responding.
We ought to be tolerant of the way people worship and spread their gospel and historically Christians have always been tolerant of Muslims but they are ever so quick to be on the offensive.

Nigerian southerners,Christians and Muslims and non Muslims all over the world are constantly slaughtered for no fault of theirs and it all starts with one person expressing disgust at the other persons mode of practice.
We ought to be very careful,the things we say.
Preaching in buses is not a new phenomenon.

Someone asked what if a Muslim started preaching in a bus,frankly,I would not be one bit offended,he should be given that right to express and share his faith,if I find it offensive,I'll simply stop riding buses.

If the woman is a fiancee or serious girlfriend,break it off immediately.
She has a terrible temper.
You don't want your wife fighting traders at aswani market for not giving her good deals.

If you're already married,give her a choke hold and warn her sternly never to try that nonsense or else,she'll be getting reunited with her late grandmother them.
She'll get the message.

If she's just some girl you run around with,walk out and keep walking.

I couldn't help but notice the ages of the deported criminals
What are 60 year old and fifty something year olds doing traficking drugs?
Are we that cursed in Nigeria that even our criminals don't know when to retire?
I wouldn't suppose these people in their forties and fifties just recently took up a new "profession" and happened to get caught on their "maiden voyage".
What did they do with previous "profits".

Goes to prove that crime never pays.

MP007:
hilarious , shocking and , who cares

abi o
They can have him and hire him to babysit their kids kpa kpa.
He'll be more than happy to have his 9 year old Bahraini brides and this time ,it'll be perfectly legal.
Lord have mercy!

davidylan:
stop dribbling yourself and genuflecting about Paul. Just think on the two issues i raised that you are struggling desperately to dodge:
1. Why is the "covenant" allah supposedly had with Abraham missing in the quran?
2. Why is ishmeal . . . supposedly allah's child of "covenant" with Abraham missing from the entire quran at about the SAME TIME he disappears from the bible?

watch him return and change the subject telling you how he was born with 3 heads in a gourd.

when I quote the same bukhari about atrocities of Prophet Mo,some of you will start shouting on top of your lungs that it is a false hadith.

pilgrim.1:
Need we say anymore?

Sample the fly casting you're touting here (and these are not events of the medieval ages):


Please understand that these incidents were not reported in a corner as an isolated event - they scale the following countries in diverse geographical locations:

Afghanistan

Egypt

Idonesia

Malaysia

Nigeria

Pakistan

Sudan . . .

. . . and many other countries.

In the midst of the mud-water, there are sane voices asking just one fundamental question, as highlighted below:

@ pilgrim,thanks for those various quotes of the atrocities committed in the name of allah.
That is the Islam the whole world knows not the "peaceful hogwash" these folks talk about.
We know better.

when I quote the same bukhari about atrocities of Prophet Mo,some of you will start shouting on top of your lungs that it is a false hadith.