₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
According to the laws their God gave them it's on the account of two or three Witnesses that any case should be established {Deuteronomy 17:6;19:15} the scribes were a section of the priestly office and they're working hand in hand with the Jewish religious leaders who wanted to bury Jesus' case.

So if you're not convinced with the account of four different individuals that's just your own personal trait it doesn't affect me.

Is this the proof that Jesus truly existed?

Do you have ANY reference to an actual statement that says the "scribes were working hand in hand with the Jewish religious leaders bury Jesus's case" ?

MaxInDHouse:
They were all eye Witnesses but the event each person saw differs from what they heard from others who saw things Jesus did in the the presence of the writers.

Come Again?

achorladey:
Even those easy discussion will still incur the wrath of you peddling STUPIDITY about it.

Na your mode of operation.

According to your awake.....


Awake 2000...........
........ Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts............


When discussion get locked. You will start seeking for motives and best performance performing group.

Na classic case of religious hypocrisy talked about in the other magazines mentioned above.

These are the basis people leave the organisation you belong. When they raise issues and point out errors which your religious leaders already states clearly that they are prone to mistakes and errors, instead of looking into the error and addressing the error they will start looking for characters and motives of no relevance to disfellowshipped or made such ones subservient to their whims.

Lol.

This is a blow below the belt!

Their own publications are their own greatest enemy.

achorladey:
At least you know their mode of operation well well.

Na self glorification and self righteousness.

I don't know how deciding to go into a debate with some about beliefs or topics of interest becomes the criteria to lose friends or accumulate enemies.

The discussion you had on that thread I don't think it reached page 2 before self righteousness and glorification set in.

Including his need to start peddling STUPIDITY

From their own very publications.......

MAINTAIN A POSITIVE ATTITUDE
4. Why can we keep a positive attitude?

4 Be Positive. Every year, there are nonreligious people who become Jehovah’s Witnesses. Many already had high moral standards and felt disgusted by religious hypocrisy. Others had low moral standards and many had bad habits that they needed to abandon. With Jehovah’s help, we can be sure that we will find those who are “rightly disposed for everlasting life.”​—Acts 13:48; 1 Tim. 2:3, 4.

Who are these non religious people and where do they get their high moral standards.

Allow him to dance naked on the streets of Nairaland.

The same person has called me stupid, presumptuous and has claimed to have "humiliated" me - just within the past 24hrs.

This is coming from somebody who is supposed to be a True Christian.

MaxInDHouse:
Come on, i was expecting something really tough not just arguments from people who never knew what happened in the first century.

I told you i'm an agent of the intelligence, we don't dwell on what people say rather we try to find out the motive behind their speeches and actions!

You have told me a million times that you are an agent of the intelligence, an intelligence officer, etc.

How does it prove that you "humiliated" me on that thread?

And how does that prove that Jesus was an actual figure in history?

MaxInDHouse:
I thought you will present a first century Jewish journalist who penned down events that occured during the first century but never mentioned anything in connection with Jesus of Nazareth but instead you're here presenting the arguments of people who lived centuries later.

So what exactly do you call a research?

Is it the arguments of those people or what you yourself read about events during the first century that omitted Jesus of Nazareth?

So is this how you have "humiliated" me?

MaxInDHouse:
Do you think the producers of these lived in the first century or you just swallowed what they presented to you because you support their opinion?

This is an ignorant statement and shouldn't be coming from a former intelligence officer of your standing.

MaxInDHouse:
To an agent of the intelligence like me written documents is never sufficient enough as proof to convince us when talking about past events but aftermath results matters to us!

So if you think you have anything to debunk the existence of Jesus of Nazareth present it today.

Few Jews back then were journalists (scribes) and they were all under the control of the Jewish religious leaders who wanted to bury Jesus' case.

So if documented records from four Witnesses who lived during the first century, saw Jesus and walked with him aren't enough for you well that shows the difference between you and i Sir!

It is quite obvious that you didn't even read any of the things I have written.

What is the proof that the writers of Gospels were actual eye witnesses?

Why do the Gospels contradict each other?

Was Mark also a disciple of Jesus and thus an eye witness?

What is the proof that the Gospels were written by the same people who they were named after?

Why should the proof that Jesus existed depend only on the four Gospels?

Where is the proof that "scribes" were under the control of the Jewish religious leaders?

You still haven't proved to me that Jesus was a real figure from history.

Till now apart from the conflicting mentions you made about Josephus, you have still not shown me archeological proof of the existence of Jesus.

Or are you saying archeological evidence is not important?

I think it is high time we allow other people comment on this thread, because it is starting to look like we're running around in circles.

MaxInDHouse:
You and i have had issues on other threads so i want this one to be free of those abuses and insults that's why i choose my words carefully here.
Please go ahead and summarize your epistles in just few sentences the same way i just did.

Kí ẹ tó sọ irọ́ di òtítọ́ á pẹ́, kí ẹ tó sọ pé màálù ló ń ṣe ọkọ ewúrẹ ẹ̀ẹ́pìtàn àpaǹpatán!

Well, I have done that.

I am still still waiting for you to show me how you have "humiliated" me on that thread.

MaxInDHouse:
Do you believe that Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin, Karl Benz, Wright Brothers once lived on this planet?
Well i would doubt if there's nothing to show for their works.
Today the world need peace but it seems so impossible all because humans are selfish and self-centered.
But on this same planet today millions of people have vowed never to raise weapons against their fellowman again due to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

So your question again why should we depend on what those four guys penned down?

Because it's working out positivity Sir!

But it still doesn't prove that Jesus was an actual figure in history.

For your viewing pleasure:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMado9ukLt0

MaxInDHouse pray tell, how did you "humiliate" me on this thread?

I would honestly like to know.

oteneaaron:
I decided to post this here for posterity sake.

MaxInDHouse pray tell how have you "humiliated" me on this thread??



For the sake of posterity, kindly do a summary the points you have raised so far, to prove that Jesus is a real figure in history, and I will exactly the same thing.

So much has been said on this thread.

Therfore, I think it will be good if we summarized our points so far, so that you can show exactly how you have humiliated me on this thread.

Thank you very much.

For anyone just joining this thread, these are the points we were meant to address in this debate:

1. Jesus really existed and is not a Mythical Figure,

2. Jesus really existed based on archeological findings, and

3. The life and teachings of Jesus is original and not copied from HORUS of ancient Egypt and many other Christ figures like Dionysus, Bacchus, Mythiras but to mention a few.

Here is my own summary. - you can pick each point and prove me wrong.

Did Jesus really exist or is he just a myth?

My answer was NO - he never existed and is just a myth and these were my reasons:

1. The earliest text in the new testament was the letters of Paul, which was written a few decades after the "death" of Jesus.

But when studying the words of Paul, he never made mention to an actual literal Jesus.

He only referred to Christ-in-you, a spiritual Christ and not a physical man.

Why would he do that if Jesus actually did exist and he only died a few decades before Paul wrote his letters?

2. The first recorded Gospel, was that of Mark - and he throughout his work, he never spoke about the birth of Jesus.

More so, there is no record to show that Mark was an actual eye witness to the life and times of Jesus.

Another major problem was that the other Gospels of Mathew and Luke are basically plagarised copies of Mark.

Why would Mathew and Luke who were supposed to be eye witnesses copy almost word for word from Mark who himself was not even an eye witness?

It is also on record that the authors of the Gospel of Mathew and Luke were not really the disciples of Jesus.

So who really wrote these Gospels?

3. Why do the Gospels contradict each other if they were all eye witnesses to the life and times of Jesus?

For one, these guys saw Jesus with their own eyes and still, their stories cannot corollate - why?

A careful study of the Gospels features a different type of Jesus for every account.

If he really did exist, and these writers were eye witnesses, then surely their stories should NEVER contradict each other in the first place.

Did Jesus really exist based on archeological findings?

This is another resounding NO - till date there is no reliable archeological finding that proves Jesus actually existed.

MaxinDhouse mentioned that Josephus Flavius spoke about Jesus in the Antiquities of the Jews.

But that was debunked as well.

We found out that is was just a forgery worked on by the dubious Bishop Eusebius of Caeserra 300 years after the actual Antiquities were first written.

But Max made a u-turn and said Josephus spoke about John the baptist.

I still ask, does the mention of John Baptist now prove that Jesus actually did exist?

Another resounding NO.

So this means that there is NO actual archeological proof to show that Jesus actually did exist.

I also spoke of a Major event mentioned in the Gospels, that happened the day Jesus died - we learn that there was an eclipse, dead people were littered the streets, there was an earthquake, and the curtain in the holy of holes was ripped apart.

Till date, there is NO actual record in history that mentions the above event, even though we know that millions of people were alive at that time.

So does this also prove that Jesus existed?

Another rounding NO.


Is the life and teachings of Jesus original or are they copied from HORUS of ancient Egypt?

The answer is another resounding NO.

The story of Jesus is not unique, neither is it original.

I spoke about the Rosetta Stone that was found in the early 1800s by an officer in Napoleons army.

This Rosetta Stone has been the tool many historians and archeologists have been able to use to translate the hieroglyphics on the walls and texts from ancient Egypt.

And a careful study of the temple of Luxor in Egypt has shown that HORUS who predates the Bible and Jesus by over 2000 years, has a very uncanny life and story similar to Jesus.

Just like HORUS, Jesus was born of a virgin, born on 25th December, gave a sermon on the mount, resurrected after 3 days, etc.

So who copied who?

Obviously, the ancient Egyptian mystery religion came first and is the source from which every other religion including Christianity owes its roots.

I am very open to interjections from anyone who will prove any of my points wrong.

MaxInDHouse:
In the first century a man was known among the Jews who claims to be their Messiah.
Instead of doing what they expected he was busy doing what he was programmed to do.
Most of his contemporaries including many of his friends deserted him for this reason.
By the end the religious rulers among the Jews decided to do away with him and bury his case but his loyalists were ready to take his teachings everywhere they go even if it means their lives.
2000 years later people still remember this man due to all the things written by his loyal and faithful friends, and today millions across the globe are practicing what he taught so that a global family of peace loving worshipers have emerged due to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth!

OK nice this is your summary right?

Nice.

MaxInDHouse:
You're reasoning from the perspective while i am reasoning as trained by the intelligence!

Lots of events could easily be buried in the midst of people who are expecting a warrior King but found out that the man that came in place of such a person never acted according to their expectations.

Jesus' life and ministry all happened within Judea where the people were expecting some warrior to deliver them from the Romans.
Everything having to do with him will surely be discarded after all he's just a nonentity to them since he couldn't save them from their enemies.

When we go for operations in places where there is tension we often make thorough investigation otherwise the truth will not come out.

So Jesus' disciples who recorded all these things were doing so at the cost of their lives because 99% of first century Jews were prepared to do away with anyone who say something good about Jesus of Nazareth!

I don't know about you, but this still does not explain why there is no historical record to show that those events actually happened.

Remember millions of people must have witnessed that event.

And we just take the words of four guys for it and that's all?

There is should be at least archeological proof perhaps?

Do you have proof backed by data to show that these events occurred apart from in the Gospels?

I thought we have covered that the Gospels were not even written by the actual disciples of Jesus?

Is there an actual record in history that tells us that on the day Jesus died, there was an eclipse or the sun, the curtains in the holy of holes got rip in half, and dead bodies were littered on the road?

That is what I am asking.

Why should we depend only on the Gospels when we have seen that they were written at least over 70 years after Jesus was said to have died?

At least I showed you that the earliest text is the new testament was the letters of Paul and not any of the Gospels.

Or are you thinking this way because of how the Bible is presently arranged?

Just to digress, in Nigeria in the mid 1960s, there was a Civil War.

Millions of people died and they are countless records that show us that the Civil War actually happened.

Till date there are historical records that show that the civil war happened.

We even have a war mesuem that you can visit to see for yourself that the civil war actually happened.

But for a story that is foundation of the faith of millions of people, why can't we at least see any actual archeological proof from history?

I decided to post this here for posterity sake.

MaxInDHouse pray tell how have you "humiliated" me on this thread??

MaxInDHouse:
He doesn't know what a challenge really means!

He first made this move but i ignored him since i noticed he doesn't believe in God, i knew it's going to be a time wasting.

But since he raised the issue here again and his so called friends are scared to stand up for their faith i decided to humiliate him along with his friends by demanding we do so on a fresh thread.

Today he could see for himself that it's all about things he believes against what i believe and not a research at all because he's just telling stories of what he chose to believe against the Bible nothing more!

For the sake of posterity, kindly do a summary the points you have raised so far, to prove that Jesus is a real figure in history, and I will exactly the same thing.

So much has been said on this thread.

Therfore, I think it will be good if we summarized our points so far, so that you can show exactly how you have humiliated me on this thread.

Thank you very much.

MaxInDHouse:
He doesn't know what a challenge really means!
He first made this move but i ignored him since i noticed he doesn't believe in God, i knew it's going to be a time wasting.
But since he raised the issue here again and his so called friends are scared to stand up for their faith i decided to humiliate him along with his friends by demanding we do so on a fresh thread.
Today he could see for himself that it's all about things he believes against what i believe and not a research at all because he's just telling stories of what he chose to believe against the Bible nothing more!

Hahahahahahha

Is this why you insisted that I should create a new thread?

So that you can "humiliate" me?

I admire your over confidence sha.

The thread is there, and the internet does not forget.

Anybody can read it and decide for themselves, if you actually humiliated me.

I still standby my words.

Jesus is not a real figure in history, but is only a myth based on stories of the ancient Egyptian mystery religions.

You can take that to bank and deposit it.

MaxInDHouse:
What happened during Jesus' death couldn't have been noticed by unbelievers who surely will take it as normal events that could happen.
Darkness that affected Egypt for three days wasn't global it's only within the area God wanted such to occur felt it so the same applies here.
Earthquakes often affect some places where the next city of about 10 kilometers may not even feel it so that's not reason to doubt the account.
Only those hypocrites in the temple knew what happened in the temple and they surely won't link such with the death of Jesus who they so much wanted to erase from history.
It's not the major streets that were littered Sir but paths close to their cemetery.
All of these means nothing to the Jewish religious leaders who were battle prepared to pay any price in other to bury Jesus' case! Matthew 27:25
So it's what matters to a Jew like Flavius Josephus he recorded in his account not events that will generate to findings about the man their religious leaders wanted to bury for good!

This still does not explain why there is no record in history of those events.

These were no normal events.

Those were MAJOR EVENTS.

Dead bodies came out of the grave, the curtain in the holy of holies was split in two, there was an eclipse - How is this normal?

Obviously MILLIONS of people would have seen this, don't you think?

If these things happened, there should have been a record in history, because this was something those people have never seen all their lives.

Makes me remember the story of when Jesus thru a few loaves of bread and dishes, fed over 5000 men that is apart from women and children.

At least we should have had a record in history of this too.

No single record in history exist retelling this story.

Why?

cornelboy:
Why the challenge for Max anyways cos I've seen anything tangible in what you presented.
It's like story story story.

If you can't see anything tangible in any of the points I presented, that is your problem, not mine.

cornelboy:
Na you wan bring evidence now.

Ain't looking for shit

Then why you asking?

cornelboy:
Na your atheists friend promised the ticket then. I no wan stress myself jare. It's not that relevant.

You believe Paul wasn't a myth?

Show us the contradictions if it's strong enough to discredit the whole new NT.

Like I mentioned earlier, go and read the thread.

I had to ask - Is calling someone an Atheist supposed to be an insult or what exactly?

Cos if that is a name calling technique, it is the weakest I have ever seen.

cornelboy:
Make e tell when and how Mathew, Mark, Luke and John got access to the stone at the temple of Luxor. And how they decode the language and wrote their accounts from it.
The book of Acts probably was copied from the stone.

Pls Oteneaaron give us the full myths written on Horus and let's compare it with the accounts of Luke John Mathew and Mark

Lol.

Try harder.

The information is out there for you find.

Go and look for it.

cornelboy:
Your evidence is not convincing enough to prove that Jesus didn't exist.

No be you wan give Max and cornelboy tickets to relax overseas and do our research on Jesus historicity?

If after finding out that -

1. There is no archeological proof to show that he existed...

2. Paul's letters been the first books of the new testament and he never spoke about a literal Jesus but a spiritual Christ-in-you,

3. The Gospel of Mark was the first to be written and the others copy almost word for word from Mark,

4. The Gospels contradict each other, and

5. The story of Jesus mirrors the story of Horus from 2,000 years before Bible

And you still believe that Jesus was a real figure in history, then that one na for your own back pocket.

If only you take your time to read before jumping into conclusions, you would have known that I wasn't the one who offered to buy you and Max tickets.

Like I said, take your time read thru the thread again.

No go de misyarn.

MaxInDHouse:
I have quoted directly from the same book written by Flavius Josephus where he mentioned "John the baptist" so prove that he didn't mention John the same man who baptized Jesus Christ!

Very interesting point.

So for a moment, let's agree that he did mention John the Baptist.

Remember that Josephus wrote the Antiquities at least 60 years after Jesus was said to have died.

And the Gospels tell us that the day Jesus died, there was eclipse of the sun, there was an earthquake, the curtain in the holy of holies was ripped in two, and streets were littered with dead people.

These are events that must have been witnessed by millions of people, both Jews and Romans.

If Jesus really did existed and these world shaking events really did occur, why didn't Josephus our beloved contemporary source not even mention any of these in any of his records.

Why is his mention of John the Baptist the only proof that Jesus existed?

Kindly Enlighten me.

MaxInDHouse:
Presumptuousness is your problem!

Why not first ask me what i meant when i mentioned Flavius Josephus?

Many people thought that this was a divine punishment, because Antipas had ordered the execution of a just man, John the Baptist.

Me Presumptuous?

How?

How many Flavius Josephus's do we have?

Show me the proof from the actual Antiquities of the Jews.

I showed you proof didn't I?

MaxInDHouse:
So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

Oh so do you admit that a LIAR and Master of FORGERY quoted Josephus.

Why did we have to wait until 300 years after the original book was written by Josephus?

Why didn't the early Christian writers who were alive when Josephus was alive and had direct access to his book not quote that passage?

It is because he never mentioned those words, in fact Josephus never knew of any Jesus.

So if you agree that Bishop Eusebius was a LIAR and a FRAUD, why should we believe that the quote he made of the TESTIMONIUM FLAVANIUM should be taken with a pinch of salt as actual history?

MaxInDHouse:
So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

Oh so you admit that a LIAR and Master of FORGERY quoted Josephus.

Why wait until 300 years later?

Why didn't the early Christian writers who were alive when Josephus was alive and had direct access to his book not quote that passage?

It is because he never mentioned those words, in fact Josephus never knew of any Jesus.

So if you agree that Bishop Eusebius was a LIAR and a FRAUD, why should we believe that the quote he made of the TESTIMONIUM FLAVANIUM should be taken with a pinch of salt as actual history?

MaxInDHouse:
So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

I took my time to show you proof.

I have my references and I can share them with you.

Show me the proof that Jesus existed.

The Gospels alone do not hold water.

And if you still insist, I have proofs to show you that recorded History does not even prove the Gospels to be true nor eye witness accounts.

You mentioned Flavius Josephus, but that has been proven false as well.

There is no proof he actually said this words, and I have broken it down above.

MaxInDHouse:
I thought you demanded for a contemporary who mentioned "Jesus" in his writing?
So Flavius Josephus's writing is false as well shey?
Matthew is false
Mark is false
Luke is false
John is false because they are all Jesus' disciples.
Now Flavius Josephus (not a Christian) who also lived close to that time and can tell us something about the events happening around the time is also false shey!

No wahala, your research is accurately perfect and fully understood!

Did you even read the Antiquities of the Jews written Josephus?

If you did you would have known that the passage you refer to is called the Testimonium Flavavium, which was only added 300 years after the original, by a known fraud called the Bishop Eusebius of Caesera.

Or didn't you do any of this background research before mentioning Josephus?

Interesting.

This does not prove that Jesus really did exist.

Prove me wrong.

MaxInDHouse:
I haven't gotten anything tangible in the stories oteneaaron is telling all this while o!
Jesus has a genealogy through his mother.
So he has relatives, friends and nation to which he belongs.
He has brothers and sisters.
He has an occupation.
He has a teaching globally known today.
And adherents of his teachings are still living by it till today.

So can we also say the same with your Horus?

The gospel accounts were written according to what each person SAW/ HEARD/ DID and PARTICIPATED during Jesus' life and ministry.
So each gospel writer penned down what they can explain.
Whoever feels their account is false simply because they didn't pen down exactly the same thing should first consider events that happened in a certain place then think of four individuals each using a camera to take pictures and videos from different angles, surely they will all conclude on the same outcome of the event but the pictures and videos will differ due to differences in where each person stands to take the shot!

This is weak Max.

If they were really eye witness accounts, why do they contradict each other?

Why did Mathew and Luke copy word for word from Mark?

Or are you saying Mark was not the first Gospel written?

Moreso, Mark was not even one of the diciples of Jesus.

So explain this to me.

Mark was the first Gospel written - by a man who was NOT even one of the diciples.

Mathew and Luke who are supposed to be diciples of Jesus, their own Gospel came after Mark, and have been proven to have copied word for word from Mark.

And still they contradict each other - why?

If they were really eye witness accounts why don't the stories align?

Why are we reading about different Jesus's with almost different characteristics?

oteneaaron:
The body of material MaxInDHouse is referring to are passages/paragraphs from the book written by Flavius Josephus called the - Antiquities of the Jews -

The first passage or paragraph MaxInDHouse mentions is as also known as the - Testimonium Flavianum -

For the purpose of reference, this is what it states - -

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.“ (Ant., book 18, chapter 3)

Now it is a fact that this book - Antiquities of the Jews - was written in the year 93CE or 94CE that is more than 60 years after the "death of Jesus".

It is very important to note that Josephus wrote his book, not when Jesus was still alive, but more than 60 years years after his death.

With that out of the way, we need to prove the authencity of the Testimonium Flavanium and the reason is that, the Testimonium was added about 300 years after the original work was written by Josephus.

The Testimonium Flavianum that MaxInDHouse the house refers to is not an original work and has proven to be a fake statement.

Let me explain why.

There are two reasons why many scholars agree that the Testimonium should not be taken as actual history but as a fake statement:

The first reason is that the majority of the early Christian writers who were alive during the period when the first version of the - Antiquities of the Jews - was written, never mentioned nor quoted the Testimonium.

What proof do we have for this?

Well for one, throughout the years when Josephus first wrote his book, it was extensively quoted from and used as a reference for many of early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius and Lactantius.

Origen in particular relied extensively on him; his own writings are filled with references to Josephus.

But it is obvious Origen had never heard of the Testimonium. When his skeptical Roman opponent Celsus asks what miracles Jesus performed, Origen answers that Jesus’ life was indeed full of striking and miraculous events, “but from what other source can we can furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives?” (ContraCelsum, 2.33)

In the same book (1.47), Origen even quotes from - Antiquities of the Jews - in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticizes him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!

So if the Testimonium Flavianum was there from the very beginning and wasn't an addition that happen almost 300 later, how come these early Christian writers never talked about it as we have seen that they extensively commented on the book written by Josephus?

Stay with me, I am getting somewhere.

So who was the first person to begin quoting the the Testimonium - that is 300 years after the original work by Josephus?

He is a man called the "Notorious Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea"

Who was Eusebius and why was he called Notorious?

In addition to being bishop of Caesarea, and courtier and biographer of the Emperor Constantine, he was the very first Christian historian, still venerated by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as “the Father of Ecclesiastical History.”

In a very real sense, he is responsible for virtually everything we know about the early centuries of Christianity.

But despite this, history has not been kind to Eusebius.

Why?

Eusebius has on countless occasions been proven to be a master of forgery.

Over two dozen complaints from his contemporaries still survive: accusations of lack of integrity, poor scholarship, deliberate misrepresentations in his histories, and hypocrisy.

Read - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Some of his alleged forgeries include -

1. A pair of letters between the ruler of Edessa and Jesus himself (the legend of the letters went on to include the Mandylion, or “Holy Face of Edessa” – a self-portrait of Jesus!),

2. Alterations to Flavius Josephus’ Antiquities, deliberate falsification of dates, swiping from a Roman novel to create Christian martyr “biographies,” and

3. Forging a heretical succession to make it appear rival Christian factions were just a small knot of misguided crackpot heretics from much later who all inherited their errors from one another.

Eusebius had no difficulty in altering any inconvenient aspects of reality that didn’t suit him. In fact, he seemed to doctor the facts habitually and constantly; he re-wrote his official church history at least five times.

So three hundred years after Josephus, the Testimonium Flavinium makes its first appearance in three books of Eusebius, who cites it from his copy of Antiquities of the Jews.
And where did Eusebius get his copy of Antiquities of the Jews?

He inherited it from his master... who inherited it from Origen.

The same Origen who never heard of the passage! No matter how you slice it, the Testimonium sticks out like the complete fraud it is, and Bishop Eusebius is prime suspect for the forgery.

Think about this very carefully -

If Josephus actually wrote the passage of the Testimonium, don't you think the early Church fathers would have gladly quoted from it as proof that Jesus really existed?

Why did we have to wait for 300 years before Eusebius who has been identified as a forgery be the first to quote from the Testimonium?

This throws away the statement from MaxInDHouse.

Josephus NEVER mentioned those words.

This proves that Josephus didn't know about any Jesus who lived and died at least 60 years before he wrote his book - Antiquities of the Jews.

Or is MaxInDHouse saying we should trust the words of Eusebius - a proven forgery?

I don't think so.

The Testimonium Flavanium cannot be trusted as a reliable contemporary source to prove the existence of Jesus.

MaxInDHouse:
Flavius Josephus a Jewish historian (though never a Christian) lived in Judea around the year 37 c.e
Google what he wrote about Jesus of Nazareth!

The body of material MaxInDHouse is referring to are passages/paragraphs from the book written by Flavius Josephus called the - Antiquities of the Jews -

The first passage or paragraph MaxInDHouse mentions is as also known as the - Testimonium Flavianum -

For the purpose of reference, this is what it states - -

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was (the) Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.“ (Ant., book 18, chapter 3)

Now it is a fact that this book - Antiquities of the Jews - was written in the year 93CE or 94CE that is more than 60 years after the "death of Jesus".

It is very important to note that Josephus wrote his book, not when Jesus was still alive, but more than 60 years years after his death.

With that out of the way, we need to prove the authencity of the Testimonium Flavanium and the reason is that, the Testimonium was added about 300 years after the original work was written by Josephus.

The Testimonium Flavianum that MaxInDHouse the house refers to is not an original work and has proven to be a fake statement.

Let me explain why.

There are two reasons why many scholars agree that the Testimonium should not be taken as actual history but as a fake statement:

The first reason is that the majority of the early Christian writers who were alive during the period when the first version of the - Antiquities of the Jews - was written, never mentioned nor quoted the Testimonium.

What proof do we have for this?

Well for one, throughout the years when Josephus first wrote his book, it was extensively quoted from and used as a reference for many of early Christian writers like Justin Martyr, Theophilus Antiochenus, Melito of Sardis, Minucius Felix, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Pseudo-Justin, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Origen, Methodius and Lactantius.

Origen in particular relied extensively on him; his own writings are filled with references to Josephus.

But it is obvious Origen had never heard of the Testimonium. When his skeptical Roman opponent Celsus asks what miracles Jesus performed, Origen answers that Jesus’ life was indeed full of striking and miraculous events, “but from what other source can we can furnish an answer than from the Gospel narratives?” (ContraCelsum, 2.33)

In the same book (1.47), Origen even quotes from - Antiquities of the Jews - in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticizes him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!

So if the Testimonium Flavianum was there from the very beginning and wasn't an addition that happen almost 300 later, how come these early Christian writers never talked about it as we have seen that they extensively commented on the book written by Josephus?

Stay with me, I am getting somewhere.