psychalade:
I support your post 100%,truth does not need belief. You have no choice than to believe when you do not have knowledge about a thing unfortunately religions does not want its followers to have knowledge, it only requires them to have faith/belief. Religion wants us to assume our brain is for decoration

I am not religious....

MaxInDHouse:
I haven't gotten anything tangible in the stories oteneaaron is telling all this while o!
Jesus has a genealogy through his mother.
So he has relatives, friends and nation to which he belongs.
He has brothers and sisters.
He has an occupation.
He has a teaching globally known today.
And adherents of his teachings are still living by it till today.

So can we also say the same with your Horus?

The gospel accounts were written according to what each person SAW/ HEARD/ DID and PARTICIPATED during Jesus' life and ministry.
So each gospel writer penned down what they can explain.
Whoever feels their account is false simply because they didn't pen down exactly the same thing should first consider events that happened in a certain place then think of four individuals each using a camera to take pictures and videos from different angles, surely they will all conclude on the same outcome of the event but the pictures and videos will differ due to differences in where each person stands to take the shot!

This is weak Max.

If they were really eye witness accounts, why do they contradict each other?

Why did Mathew and Luke copy word for word from Mark?

Or are you saying Mark was not the first Gospel written?

Moreso, Mark was not even one of the diciples of Jesus.

So explain this to me.

Mark was the first Gospel written - by a man who was NOT even one of the diciples.

Mathew and Luke who are supposed to be diciples of Jesus, their own Gospel came after Mark, and have been proven to have copied word for word from Mark.

And still they contradict each other - why?

If they were really eye witness accounts why don't the stories align?

Why are we reading about different Jesus's with almost different characteristics?

cornelboy:


Do you believe in God and the Bible?

Picture jugement day, and you standing in front of holy court. God is not going to ask you if you believed the Bible, he is going to judge you based on your reactions to his laws.

I told you not to kill, did you kill?

Did you steal?

Did you dishonor your parents

Did you commit adultery

Did you care for your neigbour

Did you take his name in vain

...etc.

He is not going to ask you if you believe he impregnated another man's wife to sire a son that will be sacrificed to him, in other to convince himself to forgive you...he has already told you that the son will not bear the sin of the father and vice versa......

I guess that is what you have not understood...

MaxInDHouse:


I thought you demanded for a contemporary who mentioned "Jesus" in his writing?
So Flavius Josephus's writing is false as well shey?
Matthew is false
Mark is false
Luke is false
John is false because they are all Jesus' disciples.
Now Flavius Josephus (not a Christian) who also lived close to that time and can tell us something about the events happening around the time is also false shey!

No wahala, your research is accurately perfect and fully understood!

Did you even read the Antiquities of the Jews written Josephus?

If you did you would have known that the passage you refer to is called the Testimonium Flavavium, which was only added 300 years after the original, by a known fraud called the Bishop Eusebius of Caesera.

Or didn't you do any of this background research before mentioning Josephus?

Interesting.

This does not prove that Jesus really did exist.

Prove me wrong.

oteneaaron:


So who was the first person to begin quoting the the Testimonium - that is 300 years after the original work by Josephus?

He is a man called the "Notorious Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea"

Who was Eusebius and why was he called Notorious?

In addition to being bishop of Caesarea, and courtier and biographer of the Emperor Constantine, he was the very first Christian historian, still venerated by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as “the Father of Ecclesiastical History.”

In a very real sense, he is responsible for virtually everything we know about the early centuries of Christianity.

But despite this, history has not been kind to Eusebius.

Why?

Eusebius has on countless occasions been proven to be a master of forgery.

Over two dozen complaints from his contemporaries still survive: accusations of lack of integrity, poor scholarship, deliberate misrepresentations in his histories, and hypocrisy.

Read - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Some of his alleged forgeries include -

1. A pair of letters between the ruler of Edessa and Jesus himself (the legend of the letters went on to include the Mandylion, or “Holy Face of Edessa” – a self-portrait of Jesus!),

2. Alterations to Flavius Josephus’ Antiquities, deliberate falsification of dates, swiping from a Roman novel to create Christian martyr “biographies,” and

3. Forging a heretical succession to make it appear rival Christian factions were just a small knot of misguided crackpot heretics from much later who all inherited their errors from one another.

Eusebius had no difficulty in altering any inconvenient aspects of reality that didn’t suit him. In fact, he seemed to doctor the facts habitually and constantly; he re-wrote his official church history at least five times.

So three hundred years after Josephus, the Testimonium Flavinium makes its first appearance in three books of Eusebius, who cites it from his copy of Antiquities of the Jews.
And where did Eusebius get his copy of Antiquities of the Jews?

He inherited it from his master... who inherited it from Origen.

The same Origen who never heard of the passage! No matter how you slice it, the Testimonium sticks out like the complete fraud it is, and Bishop Eusebius is prime suspect for the forgery.

Think about this very carefully -

If Josephus actually wrote the passage of the Testimonium, don't you think the early Church fathers would have gladly quoted from it as proof that Jesus really existed?

Why did we have to wait for 300 years before Eusebius who has been identified as a forgery be the first to quote from the Testimonium?

This throws away the statement from MaxInDHouse.

Josephus NEVER mentioned those words.

This proves that Josephus didn't know about any Jesus who lived and died at least 60 years before he wrote his book - Antiquities of the Jews.

Or is MaxInDHouse saying we should trust the words of Eusebius - a proven forgery?

I don't think so.

The Testimonium Flavanium cannot be trusted as a reliable contemporary source to prove the existence of Jesus.

So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

MaxInDHouse:


So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

I took my time to show you proof.

I have my references and I can share them with you.

Show me the proof that Jesus existed.

The Gospels alone do not hold water.

And if you still insist, I have proofs to show you that recorded History does not even prove the Gospels to be true nor eye witness accounts.

You mentioned Flavius Josephus, but that has been proven false as well.

There is no proof he actually said this words, and I have broken it down above.

oteneaaron:

Did you even read the Antiquities of the Jews written Josephus?
If you did you would have known that the passage you refer to is called the Testimonium Flavavium, which was only added 300 years after the original, by a known fraud called the Bishop Eusebius of Caesera.
Or didn't you do any of this background research before mentioning Josephus?
Interesting.
This does not prove that Jesus really did exist.
Prove me wrong.

Presumptuousness is your problem!

Why not first ask me what i meant when i mentioned Flavius Josephus?

Well for everyone following this thread please i'll advise you all to Google "Flavius Josephus on John the baptist" and see the following for yourselves:

In the war between the Jews and the Romans of 66-70, the Jewish general Joseph son of Matthias defended Galilee against the Roman legions. After he had been defeated, he defected to his enemies, and advised the Roman general Vespasian. When the latter became emperor, his adviser started a career as a historian who tried to explain Judaism to the Greeks and Romans. His works are the Jewish War, the Jewish Antiquities, an Autobiography and an apology of Judaism called Against the Greeks (or Against Apion). As Roman citizen, he accepted a new name: Flavius Josephus. He must have died about 100, more than sixty years old.


Machaerus, where John the Baptist was executed.
The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (37-c.100) describes in his Jewish Antiquities the destruction of the army of the Jewish leader Herod Antipas. Many people thought that this was a divine punishment, because Antipas had ordered the execution of a just man, John the Baptist.

Though the Jewish religious leaders fought really hard to bury the history of Jesus {Act 4:18; 5:28} but they committed a grievous blunder!
How?
They forgot that even if they expelled people from their synagogues as punishment for believing in Jesus {John 9:22; 12:42} they can't erase the man who baptized Jesus Christ John the baptist because everyone believed that John was a real prophet! Luke 20:6

Even though Flavius Josephus is not a Christian he wrote about John the baptist the popular Jewish prophet in the first century who also baptized Jesus of Nazareth!

It should be noted that John's assignment was divine because the God of the Jews had promised that a forerunner prophet will come to prepare the minds of the Jewish nation before the arrival of the Christ! Malachi 4:5

MaxInDHouse:


So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

Oh so you admit that a LIAR and Master of FORGERY quoted Josephus.

Why wait until 300 years later?

Why didn't the early Christian writers who were alive when Josephus was alive and had direct access to his book not quote that passage?

It is because he never mentioned those words, in fact Josephus never knew of any Jesus.

So if you agree that Bishop Eusebius was a LIAR and a FRAUD, why should we believe that the quote he made of the TESTIMONIUM FLAVANIUM should be taken with a pinch of salt as actual history?

MaxInDHouse:


So because a liar once quoted you means you never said what he quoted shey?
You could have been deceived due to the selfish cravings in your heart but your so called research is not sufficient enough to nullify the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth!

We have read stories about people who lived long before Jesus so whatever you think is wrong with the history of Jesus will definitely affect all other historical figures!

Oh so do you admit that a LIAR and Master of FORGERY quoted Josephus.

Why did we have to wait until 300 years after the original book was written by Josephus?

Why didn't the early Christian writers who were alive when Josephus was alive and had direct access to his book not quote that passage?

It is because he never mentioned those words, in fact Josephus never knew of any Jesus.

So if you agree that Bishop Eusebius was a LIAR and a FRAUD, why should we believe that the quote he made of the TESTIMONIUM FLAVANIUM should be taken with a pinch of salt as actual history?

MaxInDHouse:



Presumptuousness is your problem!

Why not first ask me what i meant when i mentioned Flavius Josephus?

Many people thought that this was a divine punishment, because Antipas had ordered the execution of a just man, John the Baptist.

Me Presumptuous?

How?

How many Flavius Josephus's do we have?

Show me the proof from the actual Antiquities of the Jews.

I showed you proof didn't I?

oteneaaron:

Me Presumptuous?
How?
How many Flavius Josephus's do we have?
Show me the proof from the actual Antiquities of the Jews.
I showed you proof didn't I?

I have quoted directly from the same book written by Flavius Josephus where he mentioned "John the baptist" so prove that he didn't mention John the same man who baptized Jesus Christ!

oteneaaron:


Oh so do you admit that a LIAR and Master of FORGERY quoted Josephus.

Why did we have to wait until 300 years after the original book was written by Josephus?

Why didn't the early Christian writers who were alive when Josephus was alive and had direct access to his book not quote that passage?

It is because he never mentioned those words, in fact Josephus never knew of any Jesus.

So if you agree that Bishop Eusebius was a LIAR and a FRAUD, why should we believe that the quote he made of the TESTIMONIUM FLAVANIUM should be taken with a pinch of salt as actual history?

Did Flavius mention John the baptist?

MaxInDHouse:


I have quoted directly from the same book written by Flavius Josephus where he mentioned "John the baptist" so prove that he didn't mention John the same man who baptized Jesus Christ!

Common MaxInDHouse, you are wiser than this..

JK Rowling mentions queen Elizabeth in her books about Harry Potter, those it mean Harry Potter is real ?

Do you think Moses parting the red sea is a myth? It's didn't happen?

How do you read, learn the principles without believing?

Do you believe in Jesus, do you believe the Bible as TRUE, what's your religion?

22jumpstreet:


I believe in myself. At least I know what I can and can't do.

It is not about believing...nobody is asking you to.

Read it,learn the principles in it and apply it to your life.

The only way to show you have done ao is living the principles in it.
Nobody will ask you to believe that a snake spoke to a human. You, yourself should know it is not possible.
Read the story, understand it and apply the principles...


It is not rocket science..

MaxInDHouse:


I have quoted directly from the same book written by Flavius Josephus where he mentioned "John the baptist" so prove that he didn't mention John the same man who baptized Jesus Christ!

Very interesting point.

So for a moment, let's agree that he did mention John the Baptist.

Remember that Josephus wrote the Antiquities at least 60 years after Jesus was said to have died.

And the Gospels tell us that the day Jesus died, there was eclipse of the sun, there was an earthquake, the curtain in the holy of holies was ripped in two, and streets were littered with dead people.

These are events that must have been witnessed by millions of people, both Jews and Romans.

If Jesus really did existed and these world shaking events really did occur, why didn't Josephus our beloved contemporary source not even mention any of these in any of his records.

Why is his mention of John the Baptist the only proof that Jesus existed?

Kindly Enlighten me.

cornelboy:
Do you think Moses parting the red sea is a myth? It's didn't happen?

How do you read, learn the principles without believing?

Do you believe in Jesus, do you believe the Bible as TRUE, what's your religion?

The message is true...NOT the story.

It is just a story.
Moses story means...you should continue to move forward, God will clear all obstacles for you..

"March on, God will path the sea for you..."

THERE IS AND WAS NEVER ANY NEED FOR JESUS.

HE GOT NOTHING WHATSOVER TO DO WITH THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.

cornelboy:
Do you think Moses parting the red sea is a myth? It's didn't happen?

How do you read, learn the principles without believing?

Do you believe in Jesus, do you believe the Bible as TRUE, what's your religion?

The story is a lie, the message is true...

Just like peter pan,

We all know it is about friendship. There is no place like Neverland....

Religion is just a burden created by elites to help you waste your time and control you...God only created a Human being, and gave us laws on how to live in peace...No war ..but Putin will net hear.

How were the children of Israel freed from slavery in the hands of Pharaoh? The stories na lies but the messages are true
Interesting!

22jumpstreet:


The story is a lie, the message is true...

Just like peter pan,

We all know it is about friendship. There is no place like Neverland....

Religion is just a burden created by elites to help you waste your time and control you...God only created a Human being, and gave us laws on how to live in peace...No war ..but Putin will net hear.

MaxInDHouse:
Because Jesus performed miracles shouldn't erase the fact that he lived just like every other man. He was flesh and blood! 2John 1:7
So let nobody compare Jesus to any mythical figure that's not related to any known race, father or mother, birth place, friends and modern day adherents!

Stupidity is like you conclude on whatever you heard without considering the MOTIVES in the minds of the teller!

Sorry to cut in
If Jesus existed, who was he?

Definitely he was not the Jewish Messiah, he was not a prophet,
He was not a priest.
If he was sent as a sacrifice to appease God, (even though God abhors human sacrifice) why did he not just say so and let the priest do it properly(cut his neck and let the blood flow to the ground) God never ordered Roman soldiers to carry out his sacrifice..

So many things are not right.

He is useless to the Jewish course....why would a jew write about a nonentiry?

cornelboy:
How were the children of Israel freed from slavery in the hands of Pharaoh? The stories na lies but the messages are true
Interesting!

They are spiritual stories.. not history.

Those events are taking place within us.

The battle is within.

God is consciousness, not a man or human being.

It means going from spiritual ignorance (slavery in egypt) to spiritual enlightenment (promise land)..

It is all metaphor and allegory..



Life is about the journey.....not the destination.

22jumpstreet:


They are spiritual stories.. not history.

Those events are taking place within us.

The battle is within.

God is consciousness, not a man or human being.

It means going from spiritual ignorance (slavery in egypt) to spiritual enlightenment (promise land)..

It is all metaphor and allegory..



Life is about the journey.....not the destination.

So the nation of Israel today is spiritual

cornelboy:


So the nation of Israel today is spiritual

Yes...

The one in the middle east is a creation of the United nation in 1948..

22jumpstreet:

Common MaxInDHouse, you are wiser than this..
JK Rowling mentions queen Elizabeth in her books about Harry Potter, those it mean Harry Potter is real ?

Flavius Josephus wasn't writing a fictional story but what actually happened in the first century
so John the baptist who baptized Jesus Christ is a real historical figure!

MaxInDHouse:


Flavius Josephus wasn't writing a fictional story but what actually happened in the first century
so John the baptist who baptized Jesus Christ is a real historical figure!

Baptism is not a Jewish ritual.

Hope you know that.
It is from mithraism...educate yourself.

oteneaaron:


Very interesting point.

So for a moment, let's agree that he did mention John the Baptist.

Remember that Josephus wrote the Antiquities at least 60 years after Jesus was said to have died.

And the Gospels tell us that the day Jesus died, there was eclipse of the sun, there was an earthquake, the curtain in the holy of holies was ripped in two, and streets were littered with dead people.

These are events that must have been witnessed by millions of people, both Jews and Romans.

If Jesus really did existed and these world shaking events really did occur, why didn't Josephus our beloved contemporary source not even mention any of these in any of his records.

Why is his mention of John the Baptist the only proof that Jesus existed?

Kindly Enlighten me.

What happened during Jesus' death couldn't have been noticed by unbelievers who surely will take it as normal events that could happen.
Darkness that affected Egypt for three days wasn't global it's only within the area God wanted such to occur felt it so the same applies here.
Earthquakes often affect some places where the next city of about 10 kilometers may not even feel it so that's not reason to doubt the account.
Only those hypocrites in the temple knew what happened in the temple and they surely won't link such with the death of Jesus who they so much wanted to erase from history.
It's not the major streets that were littered Sir but paths close to their cemetery.
All of these means nothing to the Jewish religious leaders who were battle prepared to pay any price in other to bury Jesus' case! Matthew 27:25
So it's what matters to a Jew like Flavius Josephus he recorded in his account not events that will generate to findings about the man their religious leaders wanted to bury for good!

22jumpstreet:

Baptism is not a Jewish ritual.
Hope you know that.
It is from mithraism...educate yourself.

This is the last time i will respond to you on this thread!
If you want a debate please open your own thread and invite me the same way he just did, i already told you that this is not where this debate began but i purposely demanded we do this on a new thread.
So if you want a debate about the historicity of Jesus Christ of Nazareth start your own thread and i'll join you.
Thanks!

cornelboy:
How were the children of Israel freed from slavery in the hands of Pharaoh? The stories na lies but the messages are true
Interesting!

Please brother Cornelboy stop responding to this guy it's just a two man debate and other interested persons are expected to follow not join in the discussion that's all!

MaxInDHouse:


What happened during Jesus' death couldn't have been noticed by unbelievers who surely will take it as normal events that could happen.
Darkness that affected Egypt for three days wasn't global it's only within the area God wanted such to occur felt it so the same applies here.
Earthquakes often affect some places where the next city of about 10 kilometers may not even feel it so that's not reason to doubt the account.
Only those hypocrites in the temple knew what happened in the temple and they surely won't link such with the death of Jesus who they so much wanted to erase from history.
It's not the major streets that were littered Sir but paths close to their cemetery.
All of these means nothing to the Jewish religious leaders who were battle prepared to pay any price in other to bury Jesus' case! Matthew 27:25
So it's what matters to a Jew like Flavius Josephus he recorded in his account not events that will generate to findings about the man their religious leaders wanted to bury for good!

This still does not explain why there is no record in history of those events.

These were no normal events.

Those were MAJOR EVENTS.

Dead bodies came out of the grave, the curtain in the holy of holies was split in two, there was an eclipse - How is this normal?

Obviously MILLIONS of people would have seen this, don't you think?

If these things happened, there should have been a record in history, because this was something those people have never seen all their lives.

Makes me remember the story of when Jesus thru a few loaves of bread and dishes, fed over 5000 men that is apart from women and children.

At least we should have had a record in history of this too.

No single record in history exist retelling this story.

Why?

I decided to post this here for posterity sake.

MaxInDHouse pray tell how have you "humiliated" me on this thread??

MaxInDHouse:


He doesn't know what a challenge really means!

He first made this move but i ignored him since i noticed he doesn't believe in God, i knew it's going to be a time wasting.

But since he raised the issue here again and his so called friends are scared to stand up for their faith i decided to humiliate him along with his friends by demanding we do so on a fresh thread.

Today he could see for himself that it's all about things he believes against what i believe and not a research at all because he's just telling stories of what he chose to believe against the Bible nothing more!

For the sake of posterity, kindly do a summary the points you have raised so far, to prove that Jesus is a real figure in history, and I will exactly the same thing.

So much has been said on this thread.

Therfore, I think it will be good if we summarized our points so far, so that you can show exactly how you have humiliated me on this thread.

Thank you very much.

oteneaaron:

This still does not explain why there is no record in history of those events.
These were no normal events.
Those were MAJOR EVENTS.
Dead bodies came out of the grave, the curtain in the holy of holies was split in two, there was an eclipse - How is this normal?
Obviously MILLIONS of people would have seen this, don't you think?
If these things happened, there should have been a record in history, because this was something those people have never seen all their lives.
Makes me remember the story of when Jesus thru a few loaves of bread and dishes, fed over 5000 men that is apart from women and children.
At least we should have had a record in history of this too.
No single record in history exist retelling this story.
Why?

You're reasoning from the perspective while i am reasoning as trained by the intelligence!

Lots of events could easily be buried in the midst of people who are expecting a warrior King but found out that the man that came in place of such a person never acted according to their expectations.

Jesus' life and ministry all happened within Judea where the people were expecting some warrior to deliver them from the Romans.
Everything having to do with him will surely be discarded after all he's just a nonentity to them since he couldn't save them from their enemies.

When we go for operations in places where there is tension we often make thorough investigation otherwise the truth will not come out.
So Jesus' disciples who recorded all these things were doing so at the cost of their lives because 99% of first century Jews were prepared to do away with anyone who say something good about Jesus of Nazareth!

oteneaaron:

I decided to post this here for posterity sake.
MaxInDHouse pray tell how have you "humiliated" me on this thread??
For the sake of posterity, kindly do a summary the points you have raised so far, to prove that Jesus is a real figure in history, and I will exactly the same thing.
So much has been said on this thread.
Therfore, I think it will be good if we summarized our points so far, so that you can show exactly how you have humiliated me on this thread.
Thank you very much.

In the first century a man was known among the Jews who claims to be their Messiah.
Instead of doing what they expected he was busy doing what he was programmed to do.
Most of his contemporaries including many of his friends deserted him for this reason.
By the end the religious rulers among the Jews decided to do away with him and bury his case but his loyalists were ready to take his teachings everywhere they go even if it means their lives.
2000 years later people still remember this man due to all the things written by his loyal and faithful friends, and today millions across the globe are practicing what he taught so that a global family of peace loving worshipers have emerged due to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth!

MaxInDHouse:


You're reasoning from the perspective while i am reasoning as trained by the intelligence!

Lots of events could easily be buried in the midst of people who are expecting a warrior King but found out that the man that came in place of such a person never acted according to their expectations.

Jesus' life and ministry all happened within Judea where the people were expecting some warrior to deliver them from the Romans.
Everything having to do with him will surely be discarded after all he's just a nonentity to them since he couldn't save them from their enemies.

When we go for operations in places where there is tension we often make thorough investigation otherwise the truth will not come out.

So Jesus' disciples who recorded all these things were doing so at the cost of their lives because 99% of first century Jews were prepared to do away with anyone who say something good about Jesus of Nazareth!

I don't know about you, but this still does not explain why there is no historical record to show that those events actually happened.

Remember millions of people must have witnessed that event.

And we just take the words of four guys for it and that's all?

There is should be at least archeological proof perhaps?

Do you have proof backed by data to show that these events occurred apart from in the Gospels?

I thought we have covered that the Gospels were not even written by the actual disciples of Jesus?

Is there an actual record in history that tells us that on the day Jesus died, there was an eclipse or the sun, the curtains in the holy of holes got rip in half, and dead bodies were littered on the road?

That is what I am asking.

Why should we depend only on the Gospels when we have seen that they were written at least over 70 years after Jesus was said to have died?

At least I showed you that the earliest text is the new testament was the letters of Paul and not any of the Gospels.

Or are you thinking this way because of how the Bible is presently arranged?

Just to digress, in Nigeria in the mid 1960s, there was a Civil War.

Millions of people died and they are countless records that show us that the Civil War actually happened.

Till date there are historical records that show that the civil war happened.

We even have a war mesuem that you can visit to see for yourself that the civil war actually happened.

But for a story that is foundation of the faith of millions of people, why can't we at least see any actual archeological proof from history?