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Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 2:10pm On Feb 11, 2022

jamesid29:
This is where I believe ,the first problem stems from sir. You are using your understanding of a word in it's target language to reinterpret what it must mean in it's source language.

Au contraire sir. I am not looking at the English word 'sacrifice' to understand the passages. Even in modern English Sacrifice is not limited to a Propitiation. For example, I can make sacrifices in order to afford to buy a new car. The sacrifices here suggests hardships and self imposed deprivations.

It should be obvious that I wasn't focused on Sacrifice as used in modern English because I also said it had to be an Offering. That propitiatory aspect is what can be found whenever and wherever Way yiz bah is used.

Like I said, Ebo is often translated as sacrifice in English too, but when we look at all the contexts in which the word pops up we realise that a closer translation would just be A Nourishment, a feeding. As one can feed Ogun shrine so one can also feed a child. It would be odd to say in English that you've just given your Child a sacrifice when all you did was give him fried plantains.

Pls note, a concordance is not the same thing as dictionary or lexicon

In other to accurately translate words from one language(SL) to another(TL), one has to have a working level proficiency of the language's structure, grammer, culture,worldview of the speakers,context, quantity, time period and so on.

Even to accurately do a word study without having to be highly proficient in a language, one has to atleast have a beginners level understanding of some of those things mentioned

Without the above mentioned, something might look evident, but that does not follow that it is encompasses the full picture or that it's even correct. I'm glad you recognize these complexities with your example of the usage of the Yoruba word "Ebo"(although your other example of Cult does fall under a different matter).

Where do we set the bench mark for what is a 'working level of proficiency of the language'? Many scholars of Hebrew texts make the same points as I do. For instance Dr Kipp Davis. He is a great deal more proficient in Hebrew than either of us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZx4KzlxW0A

However, I don't agree that because one's knowledge is not thorough then one should stop thinking at all. Or that one's insights are less valid. That is sort of an appeal to authority. Let ignoramus speak his opinion then let the more informed and come and criticise or buttress that opinion from their more informed perspective.

Yes, a concordance is not a dictionary. What a concordance does is show us the different contexts in which a word is used and that helps us to understand the connotations carried by the word. For instance we know that ebo can be given to deities and it can be given to human and the common thread is that something/someone is being fed.

Similarly every context in which we see the word Way Yiz Bah involves a Propitiation or the other, whether it is a deity being propitiated or a human.

To further confirm that Josiah what Josiah did was considered a sacrifice and not just a judicial slaughter NNTR furnished us with a passage:

1 Kings 13:1-2
1Now behold, there came a man of God from Judah to Bethel by the word (command) of the LORD,
while Jeroboam was standing by the altar [which he had built] to burn incense.
2[I] The man cried out against the [idolatrous] altar by the word of the LORD,
“O altar, altar, thus says the Lord:
‘Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name;
and on you shall he sacrifice [the bodies of] the priests of the high places who burn incense on you,
and human bones shall be burned on you.’”

Here a different word altogether, yet translated as Sacrifice, is used talking about the same event.

In that vain, I believe the first step is to address how the Hebrew grammar is structured and where the word wayyizbah fits into that

But before going into that, I would like to nail down your answer to the last conversation. You sort of explained around it but did not really answer the question( Sorry if I am the one that missed your point). I can assure you that my question is not in anyway intended to be a gotcha question. I truly believe it would help us down the road in having some common understanding of translation and language nuance.

So If I may ask it again in a clearer way,
In 2chronicles 18:2, would you say that slaughter/kill is a suitable translation of the verb or do you think the translators mistranslated the verb(whether malicious or otherwise)?

Thanks

Pls note: I'm replying to the entirety of your last post, not just this quoted part. Thanks

I'm keen to hear what you know about how Hebrew language is structured and how that pertains to our discussion.

As regards 2Chronicles 18:2, without indication that the slaughtered sheep and cattle were presented as a propitiation to his In-law then that translation would not be suitable. Obviously sometimes to accurately capture an idea that is born by one single word in a language it may require more than one word or a phrase even in a different language. To translate it as Slaughter without reference to the presentation would be wrong and misleading. As indeed NNTR and Steep were misled by dissociating what happened there from what happened in 2Kings.

Way yizbah = Slaughtered for propitiation/slaughtered for offering towards someone or something.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 3:20pm On Feb 09, 2022

Located about ten miles north of Jerusalem near the border of Israel and Judah, Bethel was known as Luz in pre-Israelite times (Gen. 28:19). The name “Bethel” (beit el) means the "house (or place) of God." Abraham, according to Genesis 12:8, built an altar east of Bethel shortly after arriving in Canaan from Haran. Later, Jacob, believing the place to be the "gate of heaven," named it Bethel. He is depicted as erecting a sacred pillar there shortly after having the dream of "Jacob's Ladder" (Gen. 28:18). The early shrine was apparently outside of the town of Luz, probably at a "high place." The exact location of either the primitive altar or later shrine at Bethel remains undetermined by archaeologists, although some believe the town may have been uncovered.[1]

In the Bible, God calls Jacob to return to Canaan from exile in Haran, and is reported to have said: "I am the God of Bethel" (Gen. 31:13). Later, after Jacob's family had settled near Shechem but had run afoul of the local population, God commanded him to move to Bethel and (re)build an altar there. The town nearby is still identified as Luz at this point, and Jacob called the place "El Bethel." When Deborah, the nurse of Jacob's mother Rebekah, died and was buried beneath an oak there, the site also became known as Allon Bacuth—“Weeping Oak” (Gen. 35:.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/bethel

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 3:08pm On Feb 09, 2022

NNTR:
You dont appease, influence, induce a deity, with the aim, of it, to be well disposed towards you, by killing an animal on another deity's shrine different to its.

Ezekiel 8:14
14Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the LORD, and behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15Then he said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? You will see still greater abominations than these.”

Those high places/shrines were where yhwh was worshipped. Other deities got worshipped there too. Similarly the Temple where yhwh was worshipped was also where the other deities were worshipped too.

There was a power struggle between the Temple priests and the priests of the high places. The Temple priests wanted Jerusalem to be the only place where sacrifices were made to yhwh even though a lot of those shrines and high places were established for yhwh and some by yhwh.

2Chron 33:
15He removed the foreign gods and the idol from the house of the LORD, along with all the altars he had built on the temple mount and in Jerusalem, and he dumped them outside the city.

Just as their were idol worship in the temple there was idol worship in Bethel. But in actual fact Bethel recognised as a spiritual place where yhwh can be encountered. This went way back to the time of Jacob who had a dream there and set up the first altar and called the place Beth-El, the house of God.

It was a pilgrimage destination and the priests in Jerusalem were vexed because people went there instead of coming to the temple in Jerusalem to worship. In fact the purpose of Jeroboam investing in Bethel was specifically to give his people an alternative to going to Jerusalem. This is really what was going on, politically speaking. It was a power struggle.

1Kings 12
26And Jeroboam said in his heart, “Now the kingdom will turn back to the house of David. 27If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the temple of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.” 28So the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, “You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.” 29And he set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. 30Then this thing became a sin, for the people went as far as Dan to be before one.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 2:39pm On Feb 09, 2022

NNTR:
In the case of Josiah, alternatively yes, and to reduce it to another one word, desecration (i.e. defacement, befouling or even vandalism killing)

1 Kings 13:1-2
1Now behold, there came a man of God from Judah to Bethel by the word (command) of the LORD,
while Jeroboam was standing by the altar [which he had built] to burn incense.
2[I] The man cried out against the [idolatrous] altar by the word of the LORD,
“O altar, altar, thus says the Lord:
‘Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name;
and on you shall he sacrifice [the bodies of] the priests of the high places who burn incense on you,
and human bones shall be burned on you.’”[/i]

The very passage you quote tells us that Josiah will SACRIFICE the priests. It doesn't even use Way yiz bah but uses another word for sacrifice which only further confirms that what did occur was a sacrifice.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 2:32pm On Feb 09, 2022

NNTR:
The confusion you see, is your confusion.

Your dishonesty has clouded your view and thus prevented you from seeing that Jehoshaphat was never a father-in-law to Ahab

You will enjoy me a lot more if you could get over the pain that you're feeling (which is actually self inflicted) and talk to me without hurling insults.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 2:08pm On Feb 09, 2022*

jamesid29:
Please where did you get your translation from or did you come up with it on your knowledge?

Secondly, In view of 2chronicles 18:2, would you agree that the best way to translate the verb in that passage would be "to slaughter/kill"?
As to Sacrifice, might give a modern reader a different connotation of the text because of how we understand the word in our worldview. And to Offer could likewise mislead a modern reader into thinking he just gave him the animals.

Are we in agreement on this?
Please bear in mind biblical Hebrew does has words for offering & killing

Where did I get my translation from?
I thought it was self evident. A sacrifice is an offering. And many translations already use the word offering, as can be seen in the same concordance that we have all been reading since.
Numbers 22:40, KJV reads
NAS: Balak sacrificed oxen and sheep,
KJV: And Balak offered oxen and sheep,
INT: sacrificed Balak oxen

1Samuel 1
4And when the time was that Elkanah offered, he gave to Peninnah his wife, and to all her sons and her daughters, portions:

I want to believe that we are still discussing in good faith and that you only perhaps forgot that a sacrifice is an offering.

As regards the best way to translate 2 Chron 18:12, the only way that slaughter/kill would work as a translation that captures what is said is if it is also demonstrated that the slaughter was presented to someone else. If he just slaughtered the sheep for no reason at all, or for another reason that wouldn't be Way yiz bah. If say, there was a disease amongst the flock and he decided to cull the flock then that killing will not be a Way yiz bah.

As regards the connotations of the word Sacrifice in the modern worldview, this is a problem to be found in all translations from one language to another, not to mention when the languages come from very different cultures. I discuss this on my Pensees thread with the Yoruba word Ebo. Check it out:

The word CULT.

There are some points of interest to be gleaned from studying the etymology of the word cult. The word entered the English language in the 17th century from 2 sources. French culte, and Latin cultus. The French is itself derived from the Latin.

The meaning of Cult in Latin encompasses To Inhabit, To Cultivate, To Protect, To Grow, To Worship, To Train or To Educate,.....

It is from the Latin Cultus that we get the English words Cultivation, and Culture.

Exploring the connection of these uses for the word Cultus we come to a deeper understanding of Religious activity.

A religious Cult should be a place where a certain spirit in a person can be nurtured and developed.

In studying African traditional religion, many concepts can be misconstrued. For instance in Yoruba religious thought (and other tribes too) practitioners talk of going to offer ẹ́bọ́ to a shrine. Too many scholars loosely translate ẹ́bọ́ to mean sacrifice, and go on to explain that something must be given in order to get something as if the offering of ẹ́bọ́ is a business transaction.

But actually the word ẹ́bọ́ in Yoruba just means nourishment. To offer ẹ́bọ́ is to feed. In other words to 'cultivate', to culture, To cult. (In Yoruba it is said that the Wife bọ́s the Husband and the Husband bọ́s the Wife). Furthermore this misconstruing of the meaning of ẹ́bọ́ ignores a very important key part of the ẹ́bọ́ ceremony. And that is that the ẹ́bọ́ is mostly eaten by the person doing the offering and shared with everyone else present. So how can it be an offering or a transaction if you are just going to eat it yourself?

This fact is true of every traditional religion that I am aware of and that is that the Offering is eaten by the Offerer. This is true even of traditional Hebrew religion from which Christianity is derived. You can tell from certain passage that most offering were eaten:

1 Samuel 2
29 Why then do you scorn[b] my sacrifices and my offerings that I commanded for my dwelling, and honor your sons above me by fattening yourselves on the choicest parts of every offering of my people Israel?’

The sons of Eli fell into disfavour because they would purposely select the best part of the sacrifice for their own bellies.

And the other famous Offering was the Tithe which was again eaten by those who made the offering and shared with others.

Deuteronomy 14
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

So what exactly is going on when ẹ́bọ́ is offered? When a meal is dedicated to a deity at a shrine the meal is then consumed by the practitioners in the belief that when the eat the meal they are nourishing the spirit of the deity in them. An Ogun devotee when he eats of the sacrifice is nurturing the spirit of industry, invention, pioneering within himself. He is cultivating the Ogun aspects of his being.

When a christian eats the Eucharist he is nourishing and nurturing the spirit of Christ within himself. The hope is that the Christ nature within will grow and come to fruition.

https://www.nairaland.com/4096095/des-pensees/6#88505692

Similarly, the English word Sacrifice does not totally capture the Hebrew Wayyizbah.
Just as a Isese practitioner can give ebo to her Ogun shrine and she can also give ebo to the child she is nursing, So also a Hebrew can Wayyizbah a deity and also wayyizbah an honoured guest. That is not to say that Ebo and Wayyizbah are the same thing. I just mean that just as it is applied to a deity it can also be applied to a guest, yet in English language both words are translated as sacrifice missing the full sense of the word in its proper cultural context.

So in short, I agree with you that the problems of translations are very deep and intractable.
There was a popular song a while ago, I think it was lagbaja that said;
ekaaro =. good morning
ekaason = good afternoon.
eku ise = ?
There are some words that just cannot be translated out of their cultural context.

Please bear in mind biblical Hebrew does has words for offering & killing

Yes I agree, and those words will be used in a context quite different from way yiz bah. For example Judges 8:17
Penuel Killed the Men.

He didn't offer the dead bodies to anybody he just killed them so He way·ya·hă·rōḡ them, he didn't Way yiz bah them.

In exodus 13:15
Yhwh killed every first born.

He way yaharog-ed them, he didn't way yiz bah them.

Similarly to offer is Et-ten.
Ahab did not 'et ten' sheep for his in law, He 'way yiz bah' the sheep. If he just gave it as a gift then he would have 'et ten' the sheep. But he slaughtered the sheep and presented them to his in-law. That is a Way yizbah.

Numbers 11:21
yet You have said, 'I will give them meat,

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 9:39pm On Feb 07, 2022

DeepSight:
But this is the essence of a ritual sacrifice. You are going round in circles.

Yes a ritual sacrifice is an offering. My point is that killing sheep and oxen for your father in law is an offering too. So both can be called a ‘way Yiz bah’.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 8:54pm On Feb 07, 2022

jamesid29:
Interesting viewpoint. Just so I'm accurately getting your point.

Are you saying wayyizbah should no longer be thought of as a word that exclusively denotes a ritual sacrifice but should be taken more generally as a term to denote a killing done in other to induce/ appease someone. That person could either be human or a deity.

I'm i correct in my understanding of your position?

Yes. or to reduce it to one word, an Offering.

Christianity Etc › Re: How Satan Deceives People With The Bible by PastorAIO: 8:51pm On Feb 07, 2022

budaatum:
What would be the point of one's asking and knocking and seeking if not correct sauce making?

At a certain time in one's life, one must have learnt enough about sources in order to not just accept the sauce one is given. That's what one learns from Paul after all, how to make Sauce.

Some feel that Paul concocted his own sauce all by himself. A master chef indeed. How many Michelin stars should we give him though.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 11:48am On Feb 07, 2022

I've just found this. I haven't read it but it seems interesting. I'll probably go through it slowly over the next few days but if anyone else is interested ....

Maybe it even contradicts what I am saying...

https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/21729/1/The%20Sacrifice%20of%20the%20Firstbron%20in%20the%20Hebrew%20Bible.pdf

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 11:42am On Feb 07, 2022

It is a common thing with Bible disputations that someone will quote a passage in order to buttress a point and the interlocutor will respond with another verse contradicting the initial passage. Why the endemic inconsistency?

Generally in life when you encounter someone whose stories are inconsistent you conclude that it is because the person is a Liar.

When someone talks out of both sides of their mouth like that I find that it is better to trust what they say inadvertently rather than what they intentionally say.
As the saying goes: The Truth is what we speak when we think that we are talking about something else entirely.

When Yhwh opened his mouth to boast about his power and how wonderful he is (a favourite trait of his) he did not realise that he made a confession that contradicted his lies about not accepting human sacrifices.

Ezekiel 20
24because they had not obeyed my rules, but had rejected my statutes and profaned my Sabbaths, and their eyes were set on their fathers’ idols. 25Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

We have to understand that the motivation of this utterance is to show how great he demonstrated himself to be by his ability to lie to his devotees and to 'defile them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn'. He didn't realise that he was exposing himself, he thought he was giving another good boast of his greatness.

Micaiah exposed him thoroughly:
1Kings 22:23
23Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”

The really difficulty with dealing with a known liar is that you don't know what you can trust and what you cannot trust. Can any of the promises they make be true? Can you make any plans on the basis of what they tell you? No! Of course not! Not unless you want to invite disaster into your life, as indeed many devotees of this ghoul have done.

What did the liar promise to all those that obeyed his laws?

Leviticus 26
3 “This is what I will do if you will live by my laws and carefully obey my commands:

4 “I will give you rain at the right time. The land will produce its crops, and the trees in the field will produce their fruit. 5 Threshing [a] time will last until grape gathering, and grape gathering will last until planting. You will eat all you want and live securely in your land.

6 “I will bring peace to your land. You will lie down with no one to scare you. I will remove dangerous animals, and there will be no war in your land. 7 You will chase your enemies, and you will defeat them. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred of them, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand of them. You will defeat your enemies, 9 and I will be pleased with you.

Now to demonstrate how mendacious a promise this was check this out. Josiah was the most righteous King that ever was in Judah.

1Kings 22
1Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath. 2[b]And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD[/b] and walked in all the way of David his father, and he did not turn aside to the right or to the left.

Yhwh says to Josiah:

Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Regarding the words that you have heard, 19because your heart was penitent, and you humbled yourself before the LORD, when you heard how I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they should become a desolation and a curse, and you have torn your clothes and wept before me, I also have heard you, declares the LORD. 20Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the disaster that I will bring upon this place.’”

1Kings 23

Josiah’s Death in Battle

28Now the rest of the acts of Josiah and all that he did, are they not written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah? 29In his days Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt went up to the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates. King Josiah went to meet him, and Pharaoh Neco killed him at Megiddo, as soon as he saw him. 30And his servants carried him dead in a chariot from Megiddo and brought him to Jerusalem and buried him in his own tomb.

What becomes obvious is that nothing the Liar says is to be trusted. Nothing but lies are spouted from his mouth and the mouths of his prophets.

Now that we have established that Mendacity is the Modus Operandi of Yhwh we can now turn to the question of Human sacrifices again.

Obviously nothing he says can be taken at face value but must be scrutinised.

Jeremiah 7:31
'They have built pagan shrines at Topheth, the garbage dump in the valley of Ben-Hinnom,
and there they burn their sons and daughters in the fire.
I have never commanded such a horrible deed;
it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!'

Ezekiel 20
25Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

You see how liars are caught talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Obviously humans have a bond with their children that makes it hard for them to sacrifice their first borns. It became a matter of great despair for the Israelites. They moaned, 'must we kill our first borns', and yhwh relented and that is when he changed tack and said he never commanded it.

Micah6
What Does the LORD Require?

6“With what shall I come before the LORD,
and bow myself before God on high?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?
7Will the LORD be pleased witha thousands of rams,
with ten thousands of rivers of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”
8He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,b
and to walk humbly with your God?

This is actually a another lie. Because 1, yes he did ask for Calves and rams. 2. yes, He did ask for child sacrifice as we see in Ezekiel20. But now Micah says he doesn't want any sacrifice but just 'justice and loving kindness'.
But we see that animal sacrifice, child sacrifice and offerings of oil are mentioned here and yhwh rejects them. But even in 'The Law' we see the request for animals and oil, and elsewhere (Ezekiel) we see that child sacrifices were requested, so which is it. Does he accept sacrifices or does he just accepts righteous conduct?

Followers of yhwh seem to be the only people who will see inconsistencies in a story and not suspect mendacity.

Let me pause there abeg, although there is a lot more to say.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 10:18am On Feb 07, 2022

jamesid29:
2 Chronicles 18:2

2 Chronicles 18:2
After some years he went down to Ahab in Samaria. And Ahab killed an abundance of sheep and oxen for him and for the people who were with him, and induced him to go up against Ramoth-gilead.

I can see where the confusion is. The case actually still remains the same. Why?

Because when Way yiz Bah is translated to mean Sacrifice it refers to a ritual killings that is done as an inducement to another person.

When I kill a goat on a deity's shrine it is not just any killing but a killing that is done in order to appease, influence, induce the deity to be well disposed towards me.

A murder, or a judicial killing cannot ever be a Way yiz bah. If I kill a goat because the goat was vexing me for some reason or the other then that is NOT wayyizbah. But if I kill the goat as an offering to someone or something then that is Way yiz bah.

Ahab way-yiz-bah many sheep and oxen for his father in law in order to 'finesse' him, appease him, induce him, to want to go to war with him. This is the same way that a devotee will way-yiz-bah a sheep on the altar of a deity as an inducement to the deity to get the deity to well disposed towards him.
In other words Wayyizbah is a killing that is done for the purpose of offering inducements to someone or something else.

Josiah Wayyizbah the priests. That means that it was done with regards to a deity or some other entity.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 10:03am On Feb 07, 2022*

NNTR:
Smh, I give up. Blind as a bat.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

In your quackness, dumbness and pointless self, you fail to grasp and understand that God is completely against humans, being offered up as a dead burning sacrifice. Get this fact and truth set in the bone framework enclosing your brain please

Look at you, making a fool of yourself playing very hard trying to explain a non-existent event by proof-texting one single verse of the bible and another single verse.

Duh, did king Josiah say he made the sacrifices to God? Answer nah. Smh.

If anyone wants to confirm they can check any concordance, to see that, it was desecrate (i.e. inverse of sacrifice) that king Josiah did

Its only an arrant nonsense, fake paistor like you, who wouldnt know that king Josiah's act of desecration (i.e. embarrassed the bad priests by killing them all and leaving them as sacrifices on their fake gods' altars) was prophesied well before he was born

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

DeepSight:
And this is a response to something so self-evidently fundamental to the Christian faith - the indisputable fact that Christ is said to have been offered up as a sacrifice for sins?

In response to that being pointed out, you shamefully attempt to pretend the poser is too stupid to countenance, and accuse the poster of being "blind as a bat," while therefore throwing up your hands in surrender.

Cringe-worthy, but nothing new.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 6:57pm On Feb 06, 2022

jamesid29:
@bolded is not really correct sir.

Kindly correct me please

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 6:07pm On Feb 06, 2022

NNTR:
God doesnt take delight in human beings, offered as burning sacrifices. No human being has offered God, approved human burning sacrifice. God has never accepted any human beings, offered as burning sacrifices. God finds the practice not only to be repulsively but its a stupid thing to do. God intervened before Abraham got to sacrifice his son Isaac.

Look at this one. Yet before he can forgive your sins unless Jesus of nazareth is sacrificed Abi?

Hebrew 9

22Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 5:58pm On Feb 06, 2022

NNTR:
al, for [the goddess] Asherah,
and for all the [starry] host of heaven;

Running away? What a daft thing to imagine and say, on top of when I've earlier put forward to you Exodus 32:7-28, so you can see confirmed what happens to idolators.

See how you found it hard to admit what the calibre of priests were that King Josiah killed. You couldn't engage your brain to see that the priests were idolators. They, essentially were priests turned bad

Of course they are human priests, or were you expecting them to be animal priests

No matter the calibre, whether ido-later or Ido-sooner, The point which seems to be flying over your head is that they were sacrificed!

Now it is possible that you are confused because of the bible translations that you are reading because the translators sanitised the text.

The Hebrew says that he Way yiz bah the priests. Way yiz bah means to sacrifice. Not to punish by death. To sacrifice.

If anyone wants to confirm they can see it in this concordance.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vaiyizbach_2076.htm

Genesis 31:54
HEB: וַיִּזְבַּ֨ח יַעֲקֹ֥ב זֶ֙בַח֙
NAS: Then Jacob offered a sacrifice
KJV: Then Jacob offered sacrifice
INT: offered Jacob A sacrifice

Genesis 46:1
HEB: בְּאֵ֣רָה שָּׁ֑בַע וַיִּזְבַּ֣ח זְבָחִ֔ים לֵאלֹהֵ֖י
NAS: to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices
KJV: to Beersheba, and offered sacrifices
INT: came to Beersheba and offered sacrifices to the God

Numbers 22:40
HEB: וַיִּזְבַּ֥ח בָּלָ֖ק בָּקָ֣ר
NAS: Balak sacrificed oxen and sheep,
KJV: And Balak offered oxen and sheep,
INT: sacrificed Balak oxen

everywhere in the Hebrew bible where you see wayyizbah they translate it as sacrifice. Only in 2Kings when Josiah sacrifices the priests that's when your translators deceive you and say 'slaughtered'. But Mendacity is what is to be expected. It shows that they know their evil but they want to hide it. Like you avoid points made and ramble nonsensically in the hope of derailing the point.

The point to be clear:
Josiah, Yhwh's favoured King, Sacrificed Priests on the altars.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 2:08pm On Feb 06, 2022*

NNTR:
Exodus 32:7-28
I ask you who were the priests killed by Josiah?
What calibre of priests are they?

_{Personal text: b]Jesus/b] is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

The were human priests. They were sacrificed by Yahweh's favoured king.

2 Kings 22
1Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of Bozkath. 2 And he did what was right in the eyes of the LORD and walked in all the way of David his father, and he did not turn aside to the right or to the left.

They weren't just killed, they were sacrificed on the altar.

You're still running away from Ezekiel 20:25

If that one is too hard for you to digest try this smaller morsel. After all mendacity is not as bad as human sacrifice.

1Kings 22
23Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”

When your expectations for redemption come from the promises of a liar, ol boy you're lost. No hope for you.

And na inside gutter you go kpai!

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 1:12pm On Feb 06, 2022

NNTR:
Take ownership of the imagined human sacrifice problem you created and stop passing the buck

Romans 1:28
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or consider Him worth knowing [as their Creator], God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do things which are improper and repulsive,

Its not unusual to give people up or give them over to worthless things, so they be free to indulge in their whims and caprices or whatnot of no values. Look at Satan for example, look at Judas, look at Pharaoh etc, loll

There is nothing to address in Ezekiel 20:25, but if you want to, then lets go there.

Warn you, though, that I'll put your head under water, so make sure you can swim, if not bring along a life jacket. Be ready to contextually take Ezekiel 20:25 apart.

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

2Kings 23:20
And he sacrificed all the priests of the high places who were there, on the altars, and burned human bones on them. Then he returned to Jerusalem.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 12:12pm On Feb 06, 2022

NNTR:
Deuteronomy 12:28-32a

Why would anyone want to stop your imaginary human being burnt offering sacrifice

N

Your problem is not my imaginary human sacrifice. It is Ezekiel’s message from yhwh stating clearly that yhwh purposely gave them statutes[b]

Indeed he is a liar and misinformation is a be of the tools in his arsenals for leading prey like you astray.

I notice how deftly you avoided addressing Ezekiel 20:25

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 9:14am On Feb 06, 2022

LordReed:
This is funny. Why would Jephthah be sad to the point of ripping his own clothes if it was just celibacy his daughter was going to endure? Why didn't Samuel's mother become sad when she gave him up? You are just trying to shield yourself from what is evident, the daughter was made a burnt offering.

And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

Even the girl understood what was going to happen.

36 “My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites.

And in the wider community nobody was shocked. Nobody tried to stop it. The maidens even commemorated it yearly.

When yhwh told Abram to kill Isaac he wasn’t shocked. Almost as if this was just business as usual.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Does The Bible Endorse Human Sacrifice? by PastorAIO: 7:08am On Feb 06, 2022

Truvelisback:
God doesn't accept human sacrifice. His daughter wasn't killed and used for sacrifice, rather she served the Lord all the days of her life without getting married and bearing children. It be came their custom.

Actually he did ask for human sacrifice. One has to be very careful when dealing with liars.

You can’t just believe he didn’t because of a few verses here and there where he said he didn’t like it. You have to look at the whole picture. A liar will always expose himself if you give him enough rope.

The biblical commands to sacrifice children were removed and redacted but they failed to remove it completely.

Ezekiel 20
25 vMoreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, 26 and I defiled them through wtheir very gifts win their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it xthat they might know that I am the Lord.

]

There was an express command to sacrifice their first borns. Where are those statutes today? Why are they not in the Deuteronomy etc

Because they were later removed to hide the fact of the practice.

Yet the bible is full of the evidence from genesis to revelation. When you understand the requirement of child sacrifice then it all makes sense from Abraham sacrificing Isaac to Jephthah sacrificing his daughter. There are many more instances

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 6:33pm On Feb 05, 2022

There is a Zen story about a monk who goes to his master and says: ‘ master please pacify my mind’

The master answered: ‘ show me your mind and I will pacify it’

He replied: ‘ sir I have sought it but I cannot find my mind’

Master: ‘ there you go, I’ve pacified your mind for you’

DeepSight:
So there is this constant evolution we go through, undergirded by past and succeeding memories which defines the totality of the mental being that we are, forming a composite but transient sense of self at any point in time. That is well understood and I even recall a comment you made several years ago about not being sure you are the same person as you were twenty four hours ago or something to that effect. My take is that all of this is still the mental evolution of a single being whose root-consciousness or spirit, remains the same.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Ifa Oracle Against Use Of Human Parts To Make Wealth - Nigerian Traditionalists by PastorAIO: 6:29pm On Feb 05, 2022

I don’t like to shock like that. My thoughts on, and allegiance to, Christianity have evolved over the time since I first arrived to NL.

My main point of the post you responded to is that appraisals of a religion should be based on its foundational texts.

So to appraise Ifa one should consult the Odu. Similarly to appraise Protestant Christianity one must consult the bible.

As regards the tangential matter of rituals, I see that we all perform rituals, whether religious rituals, hygiene rituals, etc etc. both the theists and atheists practice rituals .

MaxInDHouse:
Wow!
So this is your viewpoint!
Please i'm sorry, i thought you're one of those misinformed Churchgoers due to your profile name "PastorAIO"

It's good to have persons like you on this forum.
The truth about rituals is the spirit behind it.
Rituals has to do with people coming together to perform rites continually. So a spirit/spirits must be involved because failure to perform such rites will attract a penalty to be paid for by the defaulter.
Only atheists who don't think of any rites having to do with people gathering together are less concerned about this.
But when talking about money rituals then we must remember that it has nothing to do with any religion, spirits are everywhere and they're desperately looking for souls to trap in exchange for whatever pleases their victim.
Some people ask for power probably to deal with whoever offends them, others seek fame, some public offices having to do with politics, and some for money.
The reason why most youths go for money rituals is because they can't think of anything else apart from flamboyant lifestyle, girls and partying.
There was rites to pay back then even among the Christians, their goal was to get ever closer to the true God and resist the spirit of the world. Paul illustrated this in the Bible book of Ephesians 6:10-18
So rituals/rites cut across all races, classes and religions!

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 3:47pm On Feb 05, 2022

DeepSight:
The tricky bit with that theory though rests in the perception of self. The self-awareness, or self-consciousness. Because even if we presuppose for the sake of anything that there are indeed multiple other versions of (the frankly inimitable) Pastor AIO out there, would those versions be you: do they share your consciousness of being.

Therein lies the trouble. Nevertheless let me just quickly add that speaking for myself one is sometimes so beset with such other-worldly dreams that one cannot help but countenance the possibility that one has an unconscious or subconscious simultaneous existence some place else.

� what is the self?

To what extent is the self a construct built from a set of memories.

Imagine you fell in water as a child and nearly drowned and subsequently became very afraid of water. In fact the fear pervaded your life to the extent that it became a signature characteristic of Deepsight. Everyone that knows you knows that ‘that guy dey fear water sha’.

No w imagine you had an accident that resulted in you losing a large chunk of your memory including the early event where you nearly drowned. That event is no longer a part of your episodic memory, and subsequently you lose that characteristic fear of water. Are you still that previous hydrophobic guy?

Christianity Etc › Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 2:16pm On Feb 05, 2022

killyaselfie:
So the gist of it is that there is an infinitely small probability that another PastorAIO exists somewhere in the universe.

.. somewhere in the multiverse

And an infinite number of others.

Christianity Etc › Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 12:41pm On Feb 05, 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTXTPe3wahc

Christianity Etc › Re: Matter And Mind by PastorAIO: 10:19am On Feb 05, 2022

There is this notion of parallel universes whereby every possibility and permutation of possibilities get their full expression each in their own universe parallel to the others.

So there might be a parallel universe in which Deepsight is a girl. Another in which he is an oyinbo. Another in which he has a 15 inch penis. Another in which he is impotent and can't even get it hard. etc etc etc.

As there are an infinite number of these parallel universes anything we can imagine has it's own universe. So therefore....
There may be a universe indeed where the mind expresses itself without the use of a brain or any physicality. We just happen to be living in the universe where the brain is a vehicle for the minds expression. So the question of 'why' things are the way the are becomes moot. Our universe is not so unique or wonderful as we seem to think. Things are every other way too, but we just only know this version of possibilities.
Somewhere on another parallel universe Deepsight has just discovered that she's is pregnant again for the umpteenth time. She has not even graduated school cert. yet she is distracted by thoughts of why the grass is purple rather than any other colour, in fact she starts to fantasise about a possible world where the grass is green and she is a bloke.

See as I'm just reminding myself of the Loki show on Disney.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Ifa Oracle Against Use Of Human Parts To Make Wealth - Nigerian Traditionalists by PastorAIO: 11:40pm On Feb 04, 2022

Thanks

MaxInDHouse:
Well being born again began when some Jews thought they will join the Messiah in ruling the earth, they were known back then as "Pharisees"
Nicodemus was one of them that's why he went to Jesus at night because he knew Jesus is from God but his colleagues hated Jesus due to his teachings that's against this group.
Jesus knew the intentions of those leading this group so he didn't waste anytime before telling Nicodemus that what himself and his colleagues were anticipating will not be possible. They need to change their attitude from thinking like rulers to servants if they're going to be part of Jesus' ruling team.
Then after their baptism where everyone will know that they're now Jesus' disciples they must be baptized by the spirit of God. John 3:5

All these are too much for Nicodemus so he walked away quietly but he never hated Jesus for this truth he heard.

It was at Pentecost that what Jesus told Nicodemus became a reality. Over 120 disciples of Jesus were baptized by they spirit of God showing that they've been invited to join in ruling with the Christ in heaven.
They don't go about broadcasting it to anyone because it's only meaningful to their fellow believers, other people don't find it sensible for anyone to think he/she is going to heaven when all past servants of God believe they're going to live forever on Paradise earth.
That's why Jesus told the thief what all servants of God were longing for: Paradise (not heaven) Luke 23:43

We have them (born again) worshiping with us but i often pity people who don't know them because most people often treat us (JWs) badly whereas whoever does such to any of the born again will surely experience something really bad but they wouldn't know that it's due to the way they treated one of Jesus' REAL brothers that brought the plague.

Most of them have died and gone to heaven now it remains just a few of them globally.
They are the REAL JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES not us because we are only following their footsteps, that's why most people often get disappointed when they expect so much from a JW but later discovered that he's just like everyone else. Well it's the born again in our midst that's teaching us what we know so it's not what we ourselves are used to!

Christianity Etc › Re: Ifa Oracle Against Use Of Human Parts To Make Wealth - Nigerian Traditionalists by PastorAIO: 11:33pm On Feb 04, 2022

FKMagazine:
Really!
So, who gave those small lads the clue on which and what part is very much essential in the body to use for money ritual?

How come they knew they can get rich if they summit their loved ones or best friend(s) to an habalist and ultimately get rich quick after performing few ritual rights with those parts?

And if there are bag eggs in their profession, what are punishable measures put in place to curtail their excesses and evil deeds by fighting against the use of humans, for evil or selfish motives rather than using animals and harbs/leaves for money rituals or curing medicine?
So many questions they need to answer

Oga! It is not about punishing bad eggs. The practice of Ifa is contained in the Odu Ifa. If you want to criticise Ifa do so from the actual Odu. If you can do hire one verse where Ifa asks for human lives then I’ll agree with you.

Similarly when I accuse the Christian god yhwh of accepting human sacrifice and even asking for it I do so with an arsenal of biblical quotations where it is explicitly stated.

Christianity Etc › Re: Ifa Oracle Against Use Of Human Parts To Make Wealth - Nigerian Traditionalists by PastorAIO: 8:32pm On Feb 04, 2022

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted is enough to show that you never knew anything about Christianity!

For your information real born again Christian must not say it out in the public, in fact we only recognize them due to an annual event where they can't hide their identity.
So my friend you were never a Christian at all!

Hello Max. What you say is quite fascinating. Can you please expound on this annual event and what it entails?

Christianity Etc › Re: Ifa Oracle Against Use Of Human Parts To Make Wealth - Nigerian Traditionalists by PastorAIO: 6:26pm On Feb 04, 2022

FKMagazine:
Really!
So, who gave those small lads the clue on which and what part is very much essential in the body to use for money ritual?

How come they knew they can get rich if they summit their loved ones or best friend(s) to an habalist and ultimately get rich quick after performing few ritual rights with those parts?

And if there are bag eggs in their profession, what are punishable measures put in place to curtail their excesses and evil deeds by fighting against the use of humans, for evil or selfish motives rather than using animals and harbs/leaves for money rituals or curing medicine?
So many questions they need to answer

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Ifa Oracle Against Use Of Human Parts To Make Wealth - Nigerian Traditionalists by PastorAIO: 6:18pm On Feb 04, 2022

[/color]

wisdom042:
So where and who initiated the ideal of using human as a means to get rich?

Ezekiel 20:25

r, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.

YHWH of the Christian’s and Jews owns up to requiring human sacrifice. This would be a good place for you to start investigating

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