₦airaland Forum

@ Ogbuefi

1. I have read your last post declaring your exit and I have to say that I'm really surprised.

Why are you leaving this thread?

You have said repeatedly that you will not leave this thread before me, so I am shocked at your decision to leave. I was not the one who claimed that he would definitely not be the first one to leave.

Given this challenge, I would have expected you to stay. I am a bit disappointed and I would prefer that you stick by your words. It definitely doesn't mean anything to me if I am the first one to leave, but since it was so important to you, I would expect you to stand by your statement.

I don't have any issue with you bowing out "gracefully" by the way, but I do have an issue with you doing so after making several posts when I am not here and then leaving.

Also, I do not care whether you are here or not or whether you come back, but there are certain things that you have claimed (such as stating that pregnant women were sacrificed) that I will not let stand without posting a rejoinder to and there are other misinterpretations and reading errors (such as claiming that I said that the Jan. 1966 coup was an Igbo coup) which are simply just false.

I think that even you are aware that some of your statements cannot go unanswered.

2. On whether I insinuated that it was an Igbo coup, I did not and you misread it. I have already made some of my views on the coup known here several months ago:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-595963.64.html#msg7656756

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-595963.64.html#msg7657431

And I will not bother to go into any more detail on my views than I did on that thread. Admittedly my post on that thread from several months ago was far too wordy and you may not want to sift through it all, but my view on whether it was or was not an Igbo coup should be glaringly obvious.

I simply have never stated that the coup was an Igbo coup anywhere and that's not my view in real life. That you misread my first post is something that you're too blind to see but which other people who know what my views are would already know.

3. On Issele Uku, I see that you are posting in every direction and even posting about stuff I didn't say anything about because you didn't understand my confusion at the use of the mask to represent the "ancient connection" between Issele Uku and Benin.

You may have misinterpreted my confusion at their decision to use the Queen Idia mask, and I will elaborate on that. I have already seen the account from Zik's autobiography (My Odyssey) and it clearly states that Issele Uku was founded by followers of Chima.

Incidentally, according to Zik's account that you stand by, it was the Oba's rage, caused by the "indiscipline and lawlessness" of the assault on the mother of the Oba, that forced the Eze Chima group to flee Benin. I wonder then why you keep talking about tact when even Zik agrees that those people would have been undisciplined and lawless (i.e., criminals) to do such a thing.


(By the way, he also more or less implies that those who did not make it all the way to Onitsha were weaker. He said that those who settled at Issele Uku (and some other places) lacked the "stout heart of the pioneer-warrior" possessed by those who made it all the way to Onitsha Ado N'Idu. In other words, Zik sees those who fled the furthest from the Oba of Benin's wrath as somehow being the strongest.  )


Now what was the source of my confusion?

The source of my confusion does have something to do with the claim of the dispute between Eze Chime and Queen Idia, and I think if you had thought about it, you would have understood the bizarre irony of using the Queen Idia mask.

There is that glaring question of why they (Issele Uku) would use it, given the story claiming that Queen Idia trespassed against their ancestor or leader's farmland, leading to a dispute that was only resolved by them having to leave Benin. There are other pieces of Benin art that they could have used  to show the ancient connection that are not associated with Queen Idia. I am merely confused by the decision to use the Queen Idia mask. That is all.

I don't have any issue whatsoever with the use of the Queen Idia mask by some non-Edo and it's not even my place to have any issue with it. That's not what that face was for. I was just surprised at that picture using Queen Idia as their symbol.

Obviously,  the mask is frequently used as a symbol for the Benin kingdom and the mask has been used as a symbol for black "high" culture or achievement by non-Bini groups (and even some non-Nigerians) and I have seen some Esan associations use it as well to stress their close connection to Benin and their origin according to tradition, so I definitely don't have an issue with the use of the mask and as I said before it's not my place to have issues with it when there are undoubtedly many people who can trace their ancestry to Benin in Issele Uku.

My only question is, why would that group (Issele Uku), who believe that their ancestor or ancient leader had a dispute with Queen Idia after she trespassed on his land, then go and use her face as a symbol? Kind of seems like they're giving Queen Idia the last laugh and ignoring Eze Chima, their ancient leader. Perhaps that North American group is not all that familiar with their own history.

4. I am going to give a full response tomorrow night and hopefully you should respond then or soon after. There are so many things that you claimed not only in your earlier post, but even in your recent posts that it would make no sense for me to just let stand without even commenting on.

Rest assured that I have no interest in merely coming out looking like the "victor" in the debate due to your "absence". I would actually prefer a response. If you decide not to come back, that's okay, but don't get the impression that when I respond, I'm concerned with "looking like a hero." This is the internet. There are no heroes.

https://www.issele-uku.org/Logo%20150.gif

@ Obiagu, nobody is forcing you to read anything. If you like, skip all my posts anytime you see them. Thanks.

Ogbuefi: @Physics
1)I never claimed to be an expert but what I know ,I know too well and cannot be dismissed especially if those so called "facts" are not verifiable or have been smeared with lies and half truths.I left this thread and you felt that your time "to shine " has arrived. This is just the character of an average Edo proud , tribalistic and at times cowardly. I have read your posts. So lenghty yet so empty and I will exposse them one by one . The funny thing here is that superficially you appear knowledgeable but on a deeper look , very  shallow but I admit that you are intelligent( I have said that severally and if I was proud as you claim would not have done that ), to dribble around.

1.  You were the first person who "left" the thread because you had other things to attend to, not me. But that was not an issue for me or anyone else, because it makes sense that you would have other things to do.

I think you may have memory issues or senility is kicking in a little early for you, so let's get  a few things straight.

First,

At one point of this thread you responded, on June 1, to a post I made on May 28. You began by saying that your absence was "unplanned" and that you were "engaged with other issues."

I was surprised by the statement because I don't consider a period of a few days to be an "absence" from a thread, nor do I consider it something that needs defending or explanation. People have real lives to attend to and it would make no sense to assume that everybody is able to constantly monitor and respond to a thread from day to day, yet you were explaining and excusing your "absence" to your followers or other readers.

Second,

If you were more perceptive, you would note that I responded to your June 1 post on June 10. That's an interval of 9 days!

But that was only a response to the first 2 parts of that June 1 post.

I responded to the other parts of your June 1 first post on June 22. That's 12 days later!

To anyone with a brain, it would have been obvious that I was never constantly keeping up with this specific thread and that I was only returning at intervals.

Yet when I left (after finishing my response over a period of several days), then returned,  and then left again after the spambot kept blocking me, you later responded (AFTER I'd already left), and kept responding for multiple days in a row, and when I finally came back and responded, you started babbling about "cowardice"!!!! YOU were the one who kept responding when I had left,  but I did not accuse you of doing it in order to make yourself look clever.

If it was so important to you for the other person to be there when someone is posting, you would have waited before posting the essays (yeah, you write essays also -in fact, that's why you keep getting spam banned), rather than posting all those essays when I was busy. I could just have easily accused you of waiting till I was not there to make it look like you had "refuted me" but I actually have a brain so I'll do no such thing.

YOU were the one who posted "refutations" when I had left and started portraying yourself as though you had "refuted" me. I did no such thing when I made my comments.

Who are you trying to fool? If anyone could be accused of exploiting the "absence"  of the other poster to look like he was demolishing that person's argument, it was you, not me. I had no idea when you were going to come back to the thread and I didn't (and still don't) particularly care about whether you happen to be there at the time that I'm responding.


2. I have said this already, but I am a student and therefore I have more time than many older people on here who have to work from morning to evening, but I still do have other more important things to do with my time than constantly monitor this thread. The thing I don't understand is how you - a man in his late forties - has so much time to devote to debates with Agbontaen/omijie (such as in that enormous thread on that other forum) and how you have so much time for the internet that you actually consider an interval of a mere three days without posting to be an absence.

3. I don't care whether you think I'm intelligent or not. That's completely irrelevant. Intelligence is useful, but it doesn't decide who is right or wrong or whose positions and perspectives are valid. Lots of people who are intelligent have been wrong. Being wrong is part of learning and therefore it means little to me to be wrong on any issue. I'm not here to be right on everything all the time. The only reason for my presence is when some of these characterizations and claims get out of hand.

4. "This is just the character of an average Edo proud , tribalistic and at times cowardly." - This is coming from someone who attempted to accuse me of tribalism!!

I know you're not that bright, but you should refrain from advising people about "tactfulness" in their comments given your tendencies.

5. "Deep", "Shallow", etc. More nonsense. I never claimed to be an expert. All I know is that YOU definitely are not one. You've committed so many blunders and said so many silly things that it's hard to keep track of them all.

And what do you mean you never claimed to be an expert? You explicitly and specifically stated that you were an expert on all of the peoples of the old Midwestern region!!!

I really think that senility is kicking in early, old man.

Also, with regard to using the internet, I read across many different fields and from many sources and I do not discriminate on what to read based merely on the origin of information.

But for you to claim that you don't read things on the internet and run with them makes me think your memory is escaping you or maybe you're just resorting to the same dishonest tricks again.

How are on earth are Naiwu Osahon's writings (which you must have found on facebook or using google (and not merely "stumbled upon" or by looking at some of those yahoo discussion groups, which you found through a search engine like google) reliable sources that make you someone who argues based on what they see and hear and not an internet scholar? How are facebook and wikipedia such reliable sources? You were silly enough to insinuate that H.U. Isichei, a complete nobody, was more notable than Dr. Emovon because you read that H.U. Isichei was a notable UniJos academic on Wikipedia!!!!!

You read stuff on the internet and you start thinking the root meaning of ogie is king. You read stuff on the internet and you start thinking that no non-Edo was ever given a title, even though an un-assimilated Dutch trader was given an honorary title in the 1700s. You read stuff online written by some crackpot claiming that Maduemezia was nominated for a Nobel prize, and without even thinking about the silly claim or bothering to check it, you accept it as true. I will absolutely and completely demolish any claim you put forward in this regard and if you have any self-respect, you'll back down from this nonsensical claim immediately.

Regarding an apology, I have never apologized to omonuan and have nothing to apologize to him for. I couldn't care less what he thinks now, because I know he's just an irrational individual.

Anyway, expect a response from me in a few days, but not today or tomorrow. I will NOT alter my schedule in real life for you. This forum (nairaland) is only for free time.

So I just found out that Professor Isa Odidi is actually from Edo state!




He's not a Hausa or a Northerner. He's a Muslim from Edo state.

@ Olumide

So you don't even know the Edo word for mother and you're here constructing all sorts of theories about Iyoba being a Yoruba word? 

Why didn't you bother to find out about the word before you made that claim? Come on, man. That doesn't require too much effort.


When my father (or basically any older Benin man) gets really angry and frustrated then I hear him say "iye mwen!!!"  (my mother!!!) in exasperation.


That iya is mother in Yoruba is news to me, but iye being mother in Edo is just how things are. I'm not making any claims about "Oba" penetrating all Yorubas' vocabulary because of Benin, by the way. That's not at all what I'm saying.

You seem to think Yorubas have a monopoly on every word though, and I suspect that next you'll be explaining to us how ancient Benin people were unable to say "mother" without Yoruba influence or you'll tell us that when developing something as personal and extremely basic as what to call their mothers, Yorubas had to travel from Ife to tutor them.


And I don't buy the story about him contravening what all basically all princes who were Yoruba and were raised as Yoruba did, by just calling himself "Oba."

Also, there isn't necessarily some correspondence between the Yoruba title and the name of the place by the way. That's a very very weak argument.

Olurin refers to iron, not to the name of the Ijebu group of Yorubas or the place where they live.
Awujale, according to some accounts (http://www.ijebuassociation.org/history2.htm), refers to an ability to settle disputes about land, not to the place where Ijebus live.
Alaafin refers to a specific palace, not to the name of anything about the Oyo group of Yorubas or any city or kingdom that they inhabit.

I think you know that there are a lot of other Yoruba examples which show the same trend.

He had no obligation to take any strange title like "Oluigodomigodo" when even his father Oranmiyan did not take any title referring to the Oyo kingdom or its capital. So your argument there doesn't really work.

@ ekt_bear

"Fundah" is actually "Pandah." They are located near the Niger-Benue confluence, in the Middle Belt. I think they are from a group called "Kwotto":


http://books.google.com/books?id=tJJT8r0QZ9wC&pg=PA146

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=gcM&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=t08yTpazOY6-tgf-qoyODQ&ved=0CBQQvgUoAA&q=kwotto+nigeria&nfpr=1&biw=1158&bih=564


I refrained from doing any translations of the terms used there because I thought most of them would be obvious, but yeah actually this group (Kwotto) and their small kingdom are actually very obscure (unlike Sokoto, Borno, Nupe (Nyffe), etc.), so I should have said who they were.


I think the "fundah"/"pandah" thing comes about because of the pronunciation of "p" as "f" in certain parts of the North by Hausa speakers. Lander probably heard it as "f" because that was how it actually sounded.

They too, eventually lost to the Fulani, but the massive thrashing that their very small kingdom handed to the forces of the Caliphate in their first encounter, with the Sultan even at risk of being killed, shows that the Caliphate's military strength was not all that it was made out to be.

^^^^

That's two. The Caliphate was overrated.



The Fulanis eventually overcame Nupe, but only because of pre-existing infighting among the Nupe and the efforts of Mallam Dendo to support different factions for his own personal gain (which is clever, but only possible because of the pre-existing infighting).


The Fulanis only beat Nupe through division and deception. I suspect that the fate they met at the hands of Borno and the smaller Fundah would have met them if they had tried to face a united Nupe that was allied with both Igala and Benin.

"Tabria consists of two towns, lying on the
margins of a stream or river called the Mayyarrow,
which are connected together by a
wooden bridge ; and both places may contain
eighteen thousand inhabitants. They are occasionally
visited by the sovereigns of Nyffe.
An exterminating civil war had been raging
in the kingdom, and was still in active operation
at the period of our arrival ; one party of
the natives siding with Edrisi, a pagan, the
rightful heir to the throne of his deceased father ;
and the other leaning on the side of Mohammed,
a Mussulman, who had disputed his brother's
right of succession. By far the major
part of the people, being pagans, were decidedly
in favour of the former prince ; but the other
having invited the Falatahs to his assistance, had
completely beaten his less fortunate brother, and
it was generally expected that in the next campaign
Edrisi would be driven from the country ;
or, if taken prisoner, decapitated without mercy.
A cessation of hostilities had been resolved on
by the belligerent parties on the day we entered
Tabria ; but the contest would be resumed, it
was affirmed, after the rains."




"The Falatahs left Coulfo for Soccasoo the
day after our arrival at Tabria, with a thousand
slaves, some of whom were partizans of Edrisi,
who had been taken prisoners by that prince.
Besides this, they compelled Mohammed to
present them with four hundred tobes, which
with the slaves they took to Sultan Bello, as a
partial recompence for the services they had
rendered his cause in the late desolating campaign.
Mohammed, called by his people the
Magee, was a most cruel and inhuman prince,
and the greatest scourge that had ever afflicted
his country. He had poisoned, it was confidently
reported, a younger brother and two of
his sons, for having ventured to express their
opinion against his wild and inordinate ambition,
in attempting to rule the kingdom against the
interests and inclinations of the people ; and
because they, in common with their countrymen,
hated the Falatahs most cordially, for the willingness
and alacrity they had ever displayed to
embroil Nyffe in civil war, to the advancement
of their own influence, and the aggrandizement
of their own power.
The war was still raging in Nyffe on my return
to that country from Houssa, with far different
prospects. The pagan brother, Edrisi,
had recovered from the effects of his defeats,
and gained important advantages over Mohammed
and the Falatahs, his allies. This good
success was owing to a large body of men having
come to Edrisi's assistance from Benin, and
inspired with fresh courage his disspirited followers.
very few of them, comparatively speaking,
escaped with life. The week before I revisited
Tabria, Mohammed had experienced another
signal overthrow, and it was generally believed
by the inhabitants that the remnant of the Falatahs,
who had been so roughly handled, would
be obliged to abandon Nyffe in a few days, and
return, discomfited, to Soccasoo, in which case
Edrisi would reign in the kingdom, and Mohammed
either follow the Falatahs, or lose his life
by remaining behind.
On the 25th Captain Clapperton returned
from the camp of Mohammed, and on Tuesday
the 2nd of May we proceeded on our journey
by a path winding along the delightful banks of
the May-yarrow. Passing near to Gonda, a
walled village, and crossing a broad but shallow
stream, we entered by one of the gates into the
town of Coulfo, which is distant from Tabria, in
a direct line, only four miles.
Coulfo is the most considerable market town
in Nyffe, and the general emporium of that part
of Africa. It contains between fifteen and sixteen
thousand resident inhabitants, and, like
These individuals had proceeded up the
Quorra in canoes, and landed at Mulagee, a
small town in Nyffe situated on the banks of
that river ; a junction was then immediately
formed with the pagan natives of the country,
and an attack made on the Mussulmans with
European muskets, a great number of which
they had brought with them ; when the latter,
with the Magee at their head, were defeated
with dreadful slaughter, and the Falatahs being
the objects against whom the fire-arms of the
people of Benin were more particularly directed,
very few of them, comparatively speaking,
escaped with life. The week before I revisited
Tabria, Mohammed had experienced another
signal overthrow, and it was generally believed
by the inhabitants that the remnant of the Falatahs,
who had been so roughly handled, would
be obliged to abandon Nyffe in a few days, and
return, discomfited, to Soccasoo, in which case
Edrisi would reign in the kingdom, and Mohammed
either follow the Falatahs, or lose his life
by remaining behind." - RECORDS
OF CAPTAIN CLAPPERTON'S LAST EXPEDITION
TO AFRICA (1830) by Richard Lander

^^^

Of course, Lander's speculation turned out to be incorrect, and Mallam Dendo manipulated the whole situation to his advantage and the king of the Nupe went on to be a Fulani.

But still, it gives an idea of the kind of alliances Nupe had that could have made a real Caliphate military conquest against a united Nupe kingdom unlikely. In fact, we should recall that at one point in the past, the Nupe were a very very serious threat to Oyo. So size isn't an issue. I think Nupe would have manhandled the Caliphate militarily if elements of their divided kingdom had not been co-opted politically by "agents" of the Caliphate on multiple occasions.

The Caliphate and the Fulanis versus Fundah (which was smaller than Nupe):

"WAR WITH FUNDAH.

Fundah was described to me as being a large and populous city, the capital of a kingdom of the same name, and situated on the banks of the
Niger. It is defended by a high wall, except the part facing the sea ; and canoes are continually plying up and down the river, between
the town and the bight of Benin. The inhabitants, having received a quantity of European fire-arms from the coast by this water-conveyance,
no sooner heard of the Falatah conquests, than they perforated the wall of Fundah with innumerable little holes, barely large enough to admit the barrels of muskets, and light for the soldiers to distinguish objects without. The city never was invested in Danfodio's time, that prince wisely contenting himself with the subjection of Houssa, &c. ; but Bello, his successor, having cast an envious eye on so rich and flourishing a kingdom, had long premeditated the conquest of dominions that lay so near and so commodious for the accomplishment of his ambitious views; and attempted to carry his well-matured design into execution a few weeks only after Captain Clapperton had quitted Soccatoo on his former journey (1824). The Sultan accordingly, assembling all his forces, marched with a formidable army towards the devoted Fundah ; and halting about a half
mile from that city, sent the following singular and characteristic message to the king :

BELLO'S MESSAGE.
" Ruler of Fundah ! deliver up your country,
your riches, your people, and your slaves,
to the beloved of God, Mohammed Bello, king
of all the Mussulmans, without reluctance on
your part ; for if you do not suffer him quietly
and peaceably to take possession of your kingdom,
in order to propagate the religion of the
only true Prophet in it, he will shed your blood,
and the blood of your children, and the blood
of your household ; not one shall be left alive :
while your people he will bind with fetters of
iron, to be his slaves and bondsmen for ever
God having so spoken by the mouth of Mohammed!"

KING OF FUNDAH'S ANSWER.
" Sultan of the Falatahs ! The king of
Fundah does not know you or your Prophet ;
he laughs your boastings to scorn, and despises
your impotent threats. Go back to your country,
and live in peace with your people ; for if
you persist in the foolish attempt to invade
his dominions, you will surely fall by his hands ;
and instead of his or his subjects being your
vassals and bondsmen, your slaves shall be his
slaves, and your people his people. Your chiefs
and warriors, and mighty men, will he slaughter
without mercy, and their blood shall be sprinkled
on the walls of his town ; while even your mallams
and emirs will he thrust through with
spears, and cast their bodies into the woods, to
be devoured by lions and birds of prey !"

This insulting and contemptuous message to the beloved of God, the high-minded Bello, irritated the choler of the Falatah monarch to so
great a degree, that he immediately ordered his cavalry to advance to the very walls of Fundah ; and the conquest of that important city was
already effected in his imagination ; the glory and fame he was about to acquire filled him with pride of heart, and the brightest visions of
aggrandizement floated in his fancy. The cavalry were dressed in flowing white tobes; and as they drew near, the mallams, preceding the
horse, read aloud sentences from the Koran, as they were wont to do, till, approaching within a few yards of the fatal wall, they made a simultaneous pause for the infantry to come up. The mallans then embraced the opportunity of reading a few Mohammedan prayers in Arabic,
which no one understood or cared about; and the army unconcernedly prepared to make the attack. They were quite easy as to the result
of it; and contrary to the solemnity of the Moslam character, laughed, joked, and made merry amongst themselves, playing all manner
of antics, just like a fool shaking his bells before the mouth of a cannon about to sweep him to destruction.

Meanwhile the king of Fundah had not been
idle. Anticipating what was actually taking
place, he had prepared to meet the shock of his
powerful antagonist by every means that could
be devised in so pressing an emergency, rallying
the drooping spirits of his people, and dissipating
the dread that even the sound of the Falatah
name could not fail of inspiring. The apertures
already mentioned as being formed in the wall,
the prince caused to be filled with muskets ; and
placing a soldier at each, watched attentively the
motions and advances of his enemies. He
waited till, as it has already been remarked, the
foe, by a strange indifference, began to play the
fool almost close to the walls. Another moment
and a thousand Falatah jaws were extended to
shout the war-cry of their countrymen,
" Allah Ackbar !"
previously to making the premeditated
assault; but before they had uttered the
first syllable of the sentence, their mouths were
suddenly closed by the salute of a volley of musketry
from the fatal wall, which did dreadful
execution amongst them. Hardly knowing
what to make of this rough and ungracious
reception, so entirely different from what they
had ever before experienced, they were petrified
to the spot, and could neither fly, nor prosecute
the assault against the town; but kept their stupid
eyes foolishly staring into each other's countenance,
as if to ask the meaning of what had
taken place.
Whilst the Falatahs were in this state of horrid
suspense, and before they could have time to recover
their presence of mind, another well-directed
discharge of fire-arms from the holes in the wall,
completed the general consternation, broke the
charm that had bound them to the soil, and
away scampered the heroic Mohammedans in
all directions Bello, the beloved of God, and
king of all the Mussulmans ! being the first to
set them the example. At that instant the men
of Fundah, rushing from the gates, accelerated
the flight of the invaders, who were terrorstricken
on hearing the war-cry of their pursuers,
a loud, wild yell, close at their heels ; many
of them were killed, and many taken prisoners,
not one of them daring to make the shadow of
resistance, or even venturing to look behind him.
Being loaded with booty, the successful people of
Fundah discontinued the carnage, and returned
in triumph to their city.
In this disastrous affair, the Falatahs left
five hundred of their best troops dead on the
field, besides a vast number of prisoners and
wounded ; two hundred of the finest horses in
their empire also fell into the hands of the conquerors,
so that the threat of the Fundah monarch
was more than partially accomplished.
This, in African warfare, was considered as a
sanguinary contest : indeed Bello himself was so
severely humbled at the decisive and signal
overthrow, that, for a long season afterwards, he
was ashamed to show himself to his people.
What surprised the Falatahs and their prince
was the death of so many mallams, who, being
placed in front of the horsemen, were consequently
more exposed to the fire of the enemy,
and the first victims to the Fundah musketry ;
but the greatest wonder of all was the loss of an
Arab emir, who received two shots in his breast,
and fell dead from the side of the sultan. These
men were supposed to have a charmed life, and
in all probability believed themselves that they
were invulnerable ; but the result proved on
what a fragile tenure they had held their pretensions
to impenetrability, and opened, in some
measure, the eyes of the multitude to their abominable
deceptions.
The preceding information was first furnished
to me by the king of Jacoba ; and afterwards corroborated
in all its particulars by Mohammed, a
Houssa man, and servant of mine, who accompanied
me to Dunrora. He had been himself a
spectator of the bloody scene he described ; and
fought with the cavalry in the Falatah army, in
their memorable exploit before the walls of
Fundah.
Bello, it was asserted, would not risk the
dangers of a second campaign, the first having
given him a quietus, which, it was generally believed,
would effectually damp his ardour for
conquest during his lifetime. The Falatahs, a
proud, conceited people, and excessively vain of
their national spirit, carefully exclude from their
conversation even an allusion to a defeat ; whilst
their victories are always made the most of, and
repeated a thousand times in every company.
The great eagerness and anxiety which Bello
displayed on Captain Clapperton's former visit
to Soccatoo, to maintain a friendly intercourse
with the English nation, arose undoubtedly
from the expectation, that by the assistance he
should derive by that means, he would find little
difficulty in overcoming his enemies: a universal
despotism which he had attempted, singly
and unprotected, to erect over the minds and
persons of every Pagan nation in the interior,
being a desideratum with him, towards the accomplishment
of which his thoughts and actions
were unceasingly directed." - RECORDS
OF CAPTAIN CLAPPERTON'S LAST EXPEDITION
TO AFRICA (1830) by Richard Lander

0lumide:
because the Bini don't understand his language and the term he used to describe himself might have died out in Bini because his son, Eweka, will probably be Bini too and not speak Yoruba,

The main thing here is the fact that the Oba dynasty only started when the Yoruba only speaking bini prince started ruling,

Hope now you know Oba is a Yoruba word, Oba dynasty only started when The prince who spoke only Yoruba because he was raised in Yoruba land started ruling,

If Oba was the word Bini people used, how come the first dynasty of Igodomigodo wasn't Oba? Ogiso was what Bini people called their ruler because they believed the ruler came from the sky, which is highly plausible considering many documentaries based on Sumerian gospel talks about visitations from people of another planet, Some Yorubas believe Oduduwa and Obatala came fromthe skies though Obatala existed looooong b4 Oduduwa, just some stooopid propaganda pitching them against each other, That is mostly done why Islamic Yorubas who like to believe Oduduwa came from mecca thereby trying to make Obatala seem less powerful Oduduwa according to them ruled over obatala,

Why would the first dynasty be "Oba dynasty"? I don't even get this. Why would their specific title (Ogiso) be ignored when referring to them?

There isn't some other word for king that I know of, anyway.

And what I want to know is why he didn't take a specific Yoruba title. How will the imported word (oba) survive, but the "term he used to describe himself" (the title) won't? Isn't that just assuming?

My point is, he could have and should have taken a unique Yoruba title, but instead, he merely dropped the title of the unsuccessful predecessors. The unique title would not have been misunderstood any more than the word oba was misunderstood if oba was a foreign word to begin with. Or would he have taken some ridiculously long title composed of two whole sentences of Yoruba? No. It would probably have been formed from one, two or three words (or just from the beginning words of a short sentence, at the most) like most of the other Yoruba kings' titles, and so it would not have been much more complex than the "foreign" word oba itself. If the "imported" word oba survived, whatever title he described himself with should have survived as well, especially considering the extent of the Oba's power and influence.


For an example of what I'm talking about, the Elawure of Usen's title (Elawure) comes from "Olu Awure" which very much seems to be Yoruba. The Oba of Benin should have a similar title if I should accept your premise, but he doesn't. That's an issue which you need to explain convincingly.

The Caliphate and the Fulanis versus Borno:

"The custom of giving and receiving
presents is of very ancient standing in
Africa, and sanctioned by universal adoption.
Instead of acceding to the reasonable desires of
the Ruler of Bornou, the Chiefs of all the towns,
excepting the Governor of Kano, kept indeed
the horses, but followed the example of many
rude nations of antiquity, as well as that of more
modern times * and sent back the ambassadors to
their monarch, with bundles of sharp-pointed
spears, hinting by these hieroglyphics, that if the
Sheikh wanted corn, he was to come and fight
for it. The Governor of Kano, however, went
even a step beyond this, for he not only retained
the horses sent him, but bound the unsuspecting
ambassadors hand and foot, and taking them to
the market-place, the pitiless Falatah publicly
butchered them in cold blood. The consummation
of this atrocious act, to which I was myself
a spectator, elicited a universal murmur of disapprobation
from the slaves, who form by far the
major part of the inhabitants of the city ; and it
was generally feared, from their deep but not loud
execrations, that they would have risen into open
revolt, and revenged the murder of the Bornouese,
by wreaking their vengeance on the
head of the perpetrator of the abominable crime.
This effervescence of the public mind, nevertheless,
had subsided at the period of my departure
for Soccatoo, without producing any of the effects
so much dreaded by the free population of
Kano ; and the recollection of the revolting and
sanguinary action of the Governor was swallowed
up in other and more important incidents.


As soon as the news of this melancholy catastrophe
reached the ears of the Sheikh of Bornou,
who was then at Kouka, the capital of his
empire, he was so violently exasperated, that he
swore by the Prophet he would have an immediate
and ample revenge of the Falatahs for the
insult they had offered him ; and for this purpose,
instantly assembling a numerous and powerful
army, he hastened to chastise his relentless
enemies. The inhabitants of every Falatah town
opened their gates to the Sheikh till he reached
Murmur, (the place in which Dr. Oudney died
and was buried by my lamented master, in the
former journey,) where the people who refused to
follow the example set them by their countrymen
; and prepared to defend themselves to the
last extremity. The Bornouese, being unwilling
to lose so much time as the investment of the
town, in a formal manner, would inevitably occasion,
contrived to ensnare a number of vultures,
by baiting a crooked bit of iron, sharpened
at the extremity, and resembling in shape a
small sized English fish-hook, with pieces of
putrid beef. These instruments, to which a
long string was attached, were eagerly seized
by those voracious birds, which by this means
were caught with little difficulty. The soldiers
of the Sheikh had no sooner obtained as many
as they fancied would be necessary, by this
stratagem, than they tied pieces of burning
cotton to the claws or tails of the vultures, and
so set them at liberty. The affrighted birds
instantly flew into the town, and alighting on
the thatch of the dwellings, of course set them
on fire, and a general conflagration was the
almost immediate consequence.
This unlocked for calamity distracted the attention
of the besieged ; and all flew to arrest
the progress of the flames, and to snatch their
children from their burning habitations ; whilst
the Bornouese, taking advantage of the general
consternation that prevailed in the town, made
a sudden rush on the massy gates or doors,
(which are made of the bark of the date tree,
fastened and strengthened with iron clasps,) and
so desperate was the assault, that in less than a
minute's time they had entered the place, and
were engaged in their work of death and
slaughter amongst the inhabitants.
The infuriated Bornouese pursued their way
through the burning streets, amidst the crackling
huts of the people, and the general devastation
and ruin respecting neither party, but
frequently overwhelming both themselves and
their enemies in one common destruction.
The male Falatahs were marked out as peculiar
objects of the vengeance of the victorious
troops, one only escaping to tell the dismal tale
to his countrymen ; but not yet satiated with
blood, the pagan soldiers in the army of the
Sheikh captured all the unoffending females
who were running about in every direction,
with their offspring in their arms, or on their
breasts ; and, as with the Gooberites, after amputating
one of their hands, ejected them from
their town, snatched their children from their
embraces, and compelled the poor creatures to
wander without protection, and almost dead
with grief and intense suffering, to other towns
and villages, before arriving at which many
of them were released by death.
Several other Falatah towns were treated in
a similar dreadful manner by the Bornouese,
who marched hastily towards Kano ; but when
about a day's journey from that city, were intercepted
by the troops of the king of Jacoba,
and other allies of Bello, and coming to an engagement,
the latter were utterly routed by the
Sheikh, after a short but sanguinary contest.
The Bornouese obtained immense booty by
this victory, and on drawing near the walls of
Kano, the governor went out to meet them with
the joint forces of that city and the province of
Zeg Zeg, when the Falatahs again suffered a
mortifying defeat, and were obliged to flee back
into Kano, the immense wall of which, with its
ponderous doors, alone prevented the victorious
Sheikh, flushed with success, and glutted
with revenge, from following them into the
town, and annihilating every soul ; in which he
would undoubtedly have been assisted by die
murmuring slaves.
Bello, meantime, was gathering together an
immense army to attack the Sheikh, who, being
made acquainted with the circumstance, in
order more effectually to secure the booty he
had already required, having fulfilled to the
letter his terrible denunciation on the insolent
Falatahs, thought proper to raise the siege of
Kano, and return to his own kingdom, laden
with provisions and spoil; nor did the Gooberites
leave it in the power of Bello to make
reprisals on his triumphant adversaries; so that
they were suffered to retreat unmolested to
Bornou.
The old coffee-pot, tent, and drum, which the
disappointed Falatahs boasted, amongst other
things, they had captured from the Bornouese,
and which were publicly exhibited as trophies
of a victory they had never won, were owned,
the day before I left Soccatoo, by the discomfited
king of Jacoba, as his property, and restored
to that monarch immediately. The prince
informed me that the soldiers of the Sheikh were
so loaded with articles of greater value, that
they they did not think it worth while to have
the trouble of conveying an old worn-out tent,
coffee-pot, &c. to Bornou, and therefore left
them behind for the use of their opponents.
I could hardly forbear laughing to see the
animosity which the Falatahs evinced against
the unconscious coffee-pot, and the dreadful
punishments they inflicted upon it, on all occasions,
as if this inanimate vessel could satisfy
their thirst for vengeance on their enemies. 1
have heard of boys in England, during the period
of the war with France, desperately lopping
off the tops of thistles with a walking-stick,
and exclaiming, with appropriate gesticulation,
" Oh, if you were Frenchmen, we would behead
you in this manner !
" The expression of the Falatah,
with regard to the coffee-pot, was very similar.
I have seen him lift his spear in a transport
of rage, and while his eyes flashed fire, cry out
with dreadful vehemence : " Oh, if you were
the Sheikh of Bornou, thus would I pierce your
vile body !" accompanying his words and gesture
by making, with all the fury of excitement
and disappointed revenge, a valorous thrust at
the ill-used breakfast-preparer of the king of
Jacoba. When it came to be understood, however,
that the coffee-pot did not actually belong
to the Bornouese monarch, but was the property
of one of their most faithful allies, they were overwhelmed
with shame and chagrin ; but hushed
up the matter as well as they were able, vowing,
that as soon as the Gooberites should give them
a short respite, they would be amply revenged
on their spirited and successful antagonists" - RECORDS
OF CAPTAIN CLAPPERTON'S LAST EXPEDITION
TO AFRICA (1830) by Richard Lander

That's 1.

Katsumoto:
Dude,

You couldn't tell I was messing with you?    

BTW, stop that conjecturing about the Nupes being more formidable that Ogedengbe's Army. Fact is that Ogedengbe did not battle the Nupes so we can't say who was stronger on that basis. But if we are to conduct simple analysis; Ogedengbe battled Ibadan to a standstill in the Kiriji wars, the same Ibadan that defeated the Fulanis. Or do you want to argue that the Nupes with their small kingdom were more powerful than the Caliphate?

Secondly, we know that Ogedengbe moved his Army towards Benin. Do you think Ogedengbe was drunk when he made that move? It might have been a gamble but it was a gamble he felt could pay off. If Benin did not feel that Ogedengbe posed considerable threat, then MILITANT Benin would have crushed him just for the insult of threatening Benin. Or what other reason can you put forward for Benin's inaction?

1. It didn't actually seem like you were joking, but I see it now.

2. It's not about size. The Caliphate was utterly crushed by both Borno and Fundah in two (unrelated) important battles. I will post evidence of this in a later post.  The Nupe were not much smaller than Borno, and Borno repeatedly held off the Caliphate and even had them on the run on some occasions. The point is, this Caliphate reverence should stop because their military prowess was somewhat exaggerated. That the Nupes did not defeat the Caliphate had very little to do with the actual military capability of the Caliphate.

3. The Nupes were bested by the Caliphate in the same way that Illorin was bested by the Caliphate. The Fulanis wormed their way in as "scholars" and then used deception and division just as they did at Illorin. They never fought a unified Nupe, but instead Mallam Dendo (a Fulani) chipped away at the two rival, warring factions of Nupeland, and his sons later usurped the throne with little effort. The situation with Nupe and Mallam Dendo was very similar to that of Illorin and Alimi.

They never fought a unified Nupe, and if they had, they probably would have had to face some assistance/reinforcements from Benin, which had a shadowy kind of alliance with the Igala and the Nupe (the Igala and Nupe were historical allies). I'll post a quote with regard to this later.

4. I was actually wrong about it being the Nupes that Clapperton referred to. I just looked at the book (pdf) again and it was actually Fundah (which was even smaller than Nupe) that crushed the Fulani (and they even had Sultan Bello himself scampering for his dear life) when they tried to attack. I confused the two.

In fact, at the time that the Nupe invaded the northern Edo area, they were part of the Caliphate and their king was of Fulani descent (descended from Mallam Dendo). So they were merely an extension of the Caliphate. But they were routed when they tried to advance further into Esan land.

5. As for "crushing him" just for the "insult," that's not that likely considering that this presupposes that Benin considered it worth the effort. When you invade and sack a kingdom, there are certain rewards. When you chase down a large roving army, what particular reward do you get for all your troubles?

0lumide:
Lol but the kings in ancient Igodomigodo weren't called Oba,  Oba is not a Benin word, 

the proof is there in the story of your prince's son who he sent back,  He made himself Oba not Ogiso because he speaks Yoruba and not Bini,

Ogiso was the name you guys call your kings,  It was the Yoruba raised Bini man who changed it to Oba, 

Either you don't know, or you are lying in denial,

Ogiso does not mean "king." It is a specific title meaning ruler from the sky (or lord of the sky). It doesn't mean king anymore than Olurin means king of the Ijebu.  I don't see how referring to a king by his title means that the title itself is the word for king.

The title of the unsuccessful first dynasty was dropped. If the prince's son was following Yoruba conventions with regard to kings, why didn't he take one of those much talked about "unique" titles that Yoruba kings have? Why only Oba?

Deji, Awujale, Alaafin, Ooni, Owa Obokun, etc., but he only takes "Oba" when he should have taken a Yoruba title as a Yoruba king? I don't really see it.

@ Olumide



What is the Benin word for king? Do you think it's not "Oba"? If there is some other word, please let us know.

Nobody is revising history anywhere. All that was asked was what "eko" meant, and some people went haywire when some other people tried to explain it to them. If you want to believe that some Awori farms would have made a city that had relevance to "Yorubas from all over Yoruba land" without any Benin involvement, you're welcome to your beliefs, but don't get all worked up when others disagree with such a shaky hypothesis.



@ Katsumoto

I would appreciate it if you could expound on these alleged "bribes" and "gifts."

Ebohon of Ova held his rank for a reason, and the same Oba Adolo even later used him (Ebohon) to put a very bloody end to an uprising in the Esan area.

In fact, come to think of it, the Esan alone could have defeated Ogedengbe, not to talk of Benin. The whole idea of Ogedengbe as some sort of threat to Benin seems like manufactured folktales to me. Think about Asoro who held the British at bay, and the Ologbosere who attacked them without hesitation, and you'll understand that there was no flinching from battle on the part of Benin.

The Nupes raided Northern Edo state, and they were defeated in battle by the Esan, and that's why their raids never got any further than Edo north. If you've ever read Clapperton's journal, where he describes a Nupe battle, you'll understand that the Nupes were a more formidable force than Ogedengbe's army.

Also read up on how the Esan fought the British and you'll have a more realistic perspective.

Ogedengbe could not even have been ruffled the Esan (which had General Isidahomen), not to talk of being a threat to a stronger kingdom like Benin.

tpia@:
kosoko was in exile in whydah [ouidah].


please lets stop all this revisionist history, thanks.

none of it changes actual events and much of it is directed at potential mugus who are seeking a non-existent el dorado.

Thanks for the information but my question was not at all about Oba Kosoko, but actually about Prince Olojo.

If the Olojo story is false, I would say that it's more like "beer parlor history" than anything.

I have already heard the Benin account of it, and I initially dismissed it as I do when I read that Benin "conquered Dahomey under the Esan general Isidahome" claim, but on second thought, I realized that I wanted to hear from those who REALLY know about the history of the Lagos monarchy about what happened to Prince Olojo when his father lost out in the power struggle.

Katsumoto:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your position in that post isn't clear.

Benin has no claim over Lagos just as the British have no claim over Nigeria. British influence in Nigeria (which is more recent than Bini in Lagos) has certainly eroded in the last 50 years.

Similarly, British Monarchy descended from France, does France have a claim over England? Like you stated with regards to Bini descendants in Lagos, the French descendants of William the conqueror are now so English that many of them don't have any French culture or speak the French language.


Another example, Rome had camps in England, does Rome have claim over England? Bini itself was occupied by the British.
Lagos belongs to the indigenes of Lagos. End of story.

My position was pretty clear. Lagos is a Yoruba city, as I said in the very second line of my post. But, the claim that bringing up the Benin-Lagos connection amounts to claiming "conquest of Yorubaland" or claiming "Benin ownership of Lagos" is faulty. Those who have attempted to explain what "eko" means according to stories that they were told were accused of chauvinism if they didn't agree with the position that it refers to a farm. It could very well refer to the farms of the Awori, but if it does, then if someone claims that there was an invasion (as some Yoruba historians also claim), then there shouldn't be too much of an objection. My point was that some people want to have it both ways: there was no Benin founding and there was no Benin invasion. That's perfectly alright. There are other ways that influence can spread. However, since most Yoruba historians have already opted for one of these choices (the invasion), people should not be accused of chauvinism for their own group and against Yorubas if they agree with this position.

Katsumoto:
You this Bini boy, you no dey gree.  

What I find really curious is that the Bini do not have any records of this event, even though it is very recent while the Bini have records of other events from several centuries ago. Bini have records of settling in Lagos from the 16th Century but no records of an encounter with Ogedengbe Agbogungboro in the late 19th century?  Could it be that they didn't really want to record that event?

Anyway, I agree that there isn't conclusive evidence to support either position.

Katsumoto

The real reason I don't agree is because of what I have read in multiple sources about the Oba of Benin that was reigning at the time that Ogedengbe invaded the outskirts of the Benin kingdom. That Oba (Oba Adolo) was militant. He hounded his brother (a rival claimant to the throne) in Esan land, and fought him for decades (there is a specific written quote from an explorer which confirms this dispute as recorded in Benin tradition by Egharevba and others, but I am having trouble locating it. In the quote, the explorer refers to Esan land as "Ison" or "Isan".


Concerning the Benins not having records of it, that doesn't seem to be true. At least, Egharevba seemed to have been informed of it:

http://www.google.com/search?q=egharevba%20ogedengbe&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wp

He mentions Ebohon's move to check Ogedengbe's advance in (at least) two books:

Jacob U. Egharevba - Concise lives of the famous Iyases of Benin (1946)

http://books.google.com/books?ei=C7EwTraFJsnV0QGp8O2FAw&ct=result&id=_1J0AAAAMAAJ&dq=egharevba+ogedengbe&q=ogedengbe#search_anchor

Jacob U. Egharevba - A short history of Benin (1968 - 4th edition)

http://books.google.com/books?ei=C7EwTraFJsnV0QGp8O2FAw&ct=result&id=FukJAQAAIAAJ&dq=egharevba+ogedengbe&q=ogedengbe#search_anchor



So I think the account of Ebohon of Ova making Ogedengbe abide by his demand that he leave Benin land was already known decades ago. I don't know how the story developed that the Oba gave Ogedengbe gifts as appeasement, but it doesn't really sound that probable, considering that Oba Adolo had militaristic tendencies.

There is no "Lagos issue."


Lagos is a city in Nigeria which happens to be in the SW (Yoruba) political zone and has a very Yoruba pre-colonial history and is consequently a Yoruba city.

The only issue here is that there are some people who want to eat their cake and have it too.

If you tell them the city was founded by Benin they say, no it is actually an Awori city.

This seems like a little bit of sleight of hand. It seems little different from saying that Warri is really an Ijaw and Urhobo city and the Itsekiris have no claim to it as they are really a mix of people from Yoruba (Ijebu?) and Edo areas who are not actually from that area, who came in and set up a city-state in a place where there were already some groups existing. Consequently, one can claim that the Itsekiris are really a foreign element to Warri!!  

This is putting things upside down, of course.

If no Itsekiris, then no Warri. It might suck for those in Delta state who might want to imagine that their villages would be important or relevant enough to make their region have a commercial center without that group (Itsekiri), but sometimes reality sucks.

This brings up a question that is actually relevant to Lagos.

The main reason Lagos is important today is because of the emphasis the British put on developing it, going all the way back to the 1850s and then later when it became a capital. Now if one likes Lagos so much, (or doesn't necessarily like it, but thinks it's commercially important) which group is owed more in terms of making Lagos important/relevant enough for the British to even bother about developing it - the Aworis, who were always there, or Benin, which probably started something there?

It could be argued either way, but I don't think it's so clear cut that it's just the Aworis alone.


And if, out of respect for Yoruba tradition and the traditional histories of the actual indigenes of Lagos (the Aworis), one agrees completely with the numerous Yoruba historians and writers who say that it was originally Awori land, and therefore the Yoruba have primacy, but were invaded by Benin, all sorts of characters log on to nairaland to respond that you're claiming that "Benin conquered Yorubaland" and other crap that you didn't actually say. They then accuse you of "Binicentric" history, or claiming "ownership" of Lagos!

This is what I mean by having your cake and eating it too.

Some people want to claim that Awori Yorubas founded Lagos (although I'm not sure that I see how just being there, is equivalent to founding it), but were invaded by another group. Okay.

But if you agree with this first set of people, some other people cry foul at a claim that they were invaded. That's completely understandable.

So you say, okay. There was no invasion. It was simply founded by Benin.

But if you say this, then some second set of people cries foul, claiming that Benin did not found it and does not have "primacy" there because there were Awori farmers and fishermen there.

So there was no invasion, and there was no founding by Benin? Okay. It doesn't even matter for the present, anyway, since it's yet another Yoruba city today anyway and anybody who might have been of ancient Edo descent is a Yoruba today.

But I don't think that the relationship between Benin and Lagos should be dismissed so casually.

At least one Yoruba writer records other traditions:

http://cefolassaocoed.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=74&showall=1


There is also that question of whether the "Eleko of Eko" or "Eleko" (Olu Eko) really means the ruler/lord of the farm. If Eko is indeed "farm," and the city was named "farm" I would be somewhat interested in hearing why the Oba of Lagos's title makes reference to his lordship over a farm. I understand the the Alaafin is owner of the palace (afin). The Olu Eko/Eleko thing isn't so clear to me, however.

I think paramount lord of a war camp makes a little more sense than lord of a farm. . .but hey, what do I know?  I'm definitely not a Lagosian.

Also, for true experts of the history of Lagos, is it true that Olojo Kosoko (the second son of Oba Kosoko) sought refuge in Benin when his father lost out to Oba Akintoye? I actually just want to know if this is true or not, without reference to the "debate" or "issue" of "ownership" of Lagos. It's an interesting story in and of itself and I wanted to know, whether, like the Ogedengbe & Benin story, some of the details are just folktales, or whether the story is actually true. Thanks.

You get out of your home country what you put into it.


If you want your country to remain undeveloped, then ignore it.

Otherwise (if you have a conscience), yes, you do have a responsibility. I have some ideas about what I'll do in the future, but that's a long while from now, since I 'm still in college.

Redman44: @Katsumoto, there is no evidence historically that the Oba of Benin paid Ogedengbe not to make war on Benin Kingdom. Ancient Benin was very strong and had a very disciplined Army. I'm just laughing at those who said I'm lying. They don't have a sense of history and they are not good debaters. Benin was sorrounded by a Moat which was dug by the people to prevent enemy states from attacking the Kingdom. The Moat still sorrounds Benin City till today. The Moat served the same purpose as the Great Wall of China helped the HAN Dynasty against invaders. Both the French and British Explorers acknowledged the might of the Benin Kingdom. Benin conquered the areas that are known as Delta State today. The Urhobos and Itsekiris were conquered by the Bini People ( Check out the similarities in how their Chiefs dress ). And people are shouting about the might of the Ekiti Warriors Sad Sad Sad Where were they when Alimi and the Jihadists were tormenting some parts of Yorubaland until the Ibadan and Ijaye Warriors stopped the Fulani Advance?

2mch, you're very abusive and uncouth. Cheers.

Redman, the Itsekiris were not conquered.

A Benin prince left Benin to found Warri because there cannot be two kings in Benin. If he had tried to claim the Benin throne, there would have been a civil war.

As for the Urhobo, I think most were "co-opted" into the Benin empire by virtue of their common Edoid culture. I don't think they were invaded or attacked.

Sanusi is always impressive when he talks. He went to the U.S. and he impressed the hell out of those he met with. Despite how sharp he is in verbal intelligence, the only issue is whether his decisions with respect to the Nigerian economy and polity are really wise. Wasn't he even suggesting that the CBN invest in hotels or agriculture (or something like that) a while back ?

Concerning him becoming the next president, the man is clearly a bigot. There's no way he'd win votes outside of the north and he'd probably even have some difficulty in the Middle Belt, where he might be seen as a (core) Northern supremacist.

@ Katsumoto

The claim that Ogedengbe was "appeased" by the Oba of Benin is only one account, and it's from a site specifically designed to promote the greatness of Ogedengbe.


There are other accounts:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NaijaExcel/message/11325

http://reocities.com/CapitolHill/lobby/5144/edos.htm

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=003554

Those three accounts all have a few glaring inaccuracies in their claims about other things (such as Esan not being a separate ethnic nationality, or Igbos having no kings (which probably comes from that proverb that Igbos themselves promote)), but with regard to Ogedengbe, they could be less inaccurate.


I think the idea that he was appeased is something of a folktale (an interesting one, though) used to explain why he "backed down" when actually confronted by Benin, following his initial (unexpected) invasions.

There is another story that says he actually got to Benin city itself, and that one is rather implausible for a whole slew of reasons which would become obvious from even a cursory reading of H. Ling Roth's Great Benin and how the different contemporary sources in that book describe Benin's defenses and patrols.

Here's the story:

http://ogedengbe.com/17503.html


The one possible element of truth in it is how it conveys the same general idea that Ogedengbe turned away of his own will when he realized that he couldn't really defeat Benin.

From what I've pieced together from the different stories about him, it would probably be more accurate to say that he invaded the Ora (Owan) area (which was not anticipated), where there were just Benin officials overseeing a province of the kingdom, but when he got nearer to the actual Benin area itself and he was confronted by General Ebohon at Iruekpen, he decided to turn back.

https://img714.imageshack.us/img714/1039/2ndcapturefromthebookth.jpg

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9200/capturefromthebookthear.jpg


Both of these images are from the book The Art of Benin by Paula Ben-Amos

I don't think everything that blacks have to take pride in or which represents blacks positively comes from black America. Of course there are many more things or people that one can list for black America than for any other group, but I wouldn't say the other groups did nothing positive.

In just some of the Carribean some important names come to mind:

Haiti (Toussaint Louverture) , Jamaica (Marcus Garvey, Bob Marley, Claude McKay), St. Lucia (Derek Walcott, Arthur Lewis), Trinidad (C.L.R. James), and Martinique (Frantz Fanon, Aimé Césaire).

@ odumchi


PAGAN 9JA's group is not "assimilated Hausa." In fact, Maguzawa and Bunjawa are just the names for those groups of Hausas that did not convert to Islam. They are not some sort of separate "tribe" from Hausa in terms of ethnicity. It's just a religious difference.

Negro_Ntns:
On the other hand, I feel differently and have no belief or support for an apology or reparation or restitution to Biafra or any entity, individual or corporate that[b] fought on the Biafran side.[/b]

What you're talking about has very little do with what I'm talking about.


If an Igbo man was living in Benin or Warri or Sapele, minding his own business, and then he was taken out of his house to be executed, how can you say he was "fighting on the Biafran side"?

My issue with this "ethnic apology" crap is that it doesn't make sense. If the federal troops ask for every Igbo man in a city to be rounded up (to be executed), is there some sort of ethnicity-wide decision taken, or is the entire ethnicity supposed to control the actions of each person? It's outright stupidity to compare it to nearly the whole of Germany, or the majority of Hutus backing the actions of the lowest elements of their society, yet the very first poster who came in with this "ethnic apology" stuff went to great lengths to try to make his demand for an apology seem reasonable. His whole scenario was false. There was no widespread involvement of the majority of the populace of the city, let alone the entire ethnic group, and there was not some sustained effort to "break the Igbo spirit" by that ethnic group. He has issues and I don't think should bother responding to anything else that character has to say.

Concerning an "admission of wrongdoing" that's the other issue. Not only would "admissions of wrongdoing" have to go both ways, they would have to come from the actual people from that time (some of whom are certainly still alive) who did wrong, whether we're talking about the imbeciles who declared an Igbo-run "republic of Benin" without consulting any Benin leaders (or the non-Benins who might object to it) or the criminals who had innocent people executed for their own personal gain. Coming from anybody else, the "admissions of wrongdoing" make no sense and if these admissions are accepted, then this amounts to a deliberate decision on the part of the person accepting the apology to trick the person apologizing into admitting to something they didn't do and don't have anything to do with. That's fraudulence. I think you misinterpreted my apology because I wasn't clear enough. It has nothing to do with "admitting wrongdoing", but rather, expressing regret over what happened. My expressing regret over what those people did is not the same as admitting wrongdoing. I can't admit wrongdoing for something I didn't do and had no control over. But what happened in those cities in 1967 was regrettable. That's something that anybody (including you) should be able to agree with regardless of their views on Biafra.

b) Second, it is an indisputable fact that Oba Eweka, as Prince Aiguobasimwin, told the Agboghidi story to the English author John Wyndham in 1911. Wyndham published an epic about the story in 1926 and I even provided an small extract of it, but the spambot hid the post. You can refer to Dan Ben-Amos' article ('The narrator as editor') on page 282 of the book Textualization of oral epics by Lauri Honko for proof. Therefore the claim that Egharevba "made up the story" is rubbish and is more propaganda and lies from the ogbuefi of propaganda.

c) Incidentally, the other thing that this is very clear is that Egharevba was definitely very serious when he said it was a "short" history of Benin. The telling of just two stories about two individuals lasted many hours:

"In 1966 the grantee recorded the Edo storyteller, Mr. Iditua, telling two narratives, "Agboghidi" and "Odologie*. Their narration lasted eighteen and twelve hours respectively." - This is a description from the 1991 Yearbook of the American Philosophical Society, where the author opens his review of a rare 1981 book authored by Dan Ben-Amos, called "A Critical Edition of Two Edo (Bini) Epics," with these sentences.

I wouldnt' be surprised if Dan Ben-Amos' book recording only two figures in Benin history, as told to him by a Benin man, was much larger than Egharevba's entire Short History. If I were able to obtain the book (it's costs $1188 and is rare) or somehow find it at a library somewhere, I could show decisively that the story of Agboghidi is known to the Binis in detail and is not "made up."

Don't really understand the OP's complaint.

In countries where the different groups are defined by "race" rather than "ethnic origin" it is perfectly alright for only those categories to be used.


Also the claim that Asians get to specify their specific continent of origin seems faulty. In many of those forms in the U.S. (I can't speak for Europe), Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders are grouped together with Far East Asians in one category because they are considered to be of the same race.

10)On the Osagie vs Nwanze issue , I did try to get into Google scholar to make comparisons and behold , there were more citations on Prof Nwanze than Prof Osagie.Rather than jump into conclusion I will advice you take a more thorough look at your post.But I will not take this Google whatever as conclusive because neither you nor me have access to their academic achievements.That is fact ! But was is important is that both men were tested for the job and Nwanze came tops.He got that position on merit.I will advice that you shouldnt be sentimental here.

1. Can you even use Google correctly? It's not that hard. You probably included all sorts of Nwanzes in there without checking the actual names (like whether the publications were by somebody whose first name actually started with a K, instead of an E). Or you even included papers that cited Nwanze but were not authored by Nwanze. The same mistakes could be made for the many people with the last name Osagie, yet you just so happened to make it for Nwanze. Anthony Osagie has over 500 citations and you have to go through many pages of a search just to see all the publications. It's not just the publications on the first page or the first few pages. And Nwanze has nowhere near 500 citations. Please redo your search. Search "A Osagie" and "E Nwanze" and see what comes up.

Those articles with EA Nwanze, EAC Nwanze, and E Nwanze as the author are publications by Emmanuel Andrew Chukwuedo Nwanze  (as long as they are in the right field of science).

Publications with A Osagie and AU Osagie as an author are publications by Anthony U. Osagie (as long as they are in the correct field of science)

2. It's okay to say that he was not unfit for the position.

What's not okay is to insinuate that he got the position ahead of a Bini because of some inadequacy on the part of the Binis - which is exactly what you did.

Nwanze was never

a) Dean of Science at any university
b) president of Nigeria's biochemistry society

and he was

c) academically junior
d) someone with less administrative experience in terms of leading departments or institutions
e) someone with far fewer publications and citations

So let's leave it at that.

Ogbuefi 1: 9)You implied it yourself.The relationship between the Oba and the NCNC was based on mutual interest.I will advice you take a deeper look on your post.

Look deeper? In 1949, there is no evidence that Oba Akenzua II, who even initially wanted to steer clear of any outside (of the Midwest) political influence on the Midwest creation movement would have been motivated to go out of his way to help the Zikists by a need for gain from the NCNC. In fact, what could they have done for him? In fact, in 1949, what humiliations had he suffered to make him think he couldn't work with a (not yet extant) Western region government if things went well? In fact, did the Action Group even exist in 1949 for the Oba of Benin to be preemptively aligning with its possible future rivals? This is just nonsense.

I asked a simple question, which was if you could prove that Chief Igbe is of Urhobo origin.Because we have often heard of some "notable" Benins being claimed to have different ethnic background.At one time we heard that the Igbinedions were of Esan origin because of the Esama title, in another occassion Lawrence Anini was claimed to be of Igbo origin hence the nick name "Ovbi Igbo" not long ago , it was Odigie Oyegun that was claimed to be of Urhobo origin.Oyegun himself in one occasiondismissed those claims saying he actually comes from Ikoha and his mother is an Urhobo woman from Agbassa(Warri urban).

Igho Natufe (Urhobo) did not deny that Chief Igbe is of Urhobo origin, so what other proof are you requesting? I don't know the Chief personally to be going around asking people of his origins, but if some Binis and some Urhobos agree that he is of Urhobo origin, then there's no issue there for me.

On Chief Edebiri, Hahaha, Na wa, This world is a small place but I can tell you that my father knew Chief Edebiri personally and they hve been friends for a very long time.Let e just leave it at that.You see in Nigeria because of our strucutral lapses, anyone can claim whatever.I really dont care if he says he was even the person the who led the fight for independence.

1. I also know Chief Edebiri. He is very friendly and affable. The new additions to his palace (the art on the walls about Asoro, the hydra, etc.) are beautiful.

2. He didn't say anywhere that he led the fight for independence. I don't see how describing yourself as a footsoldier equates to saying that you led something. He was given a national honor a while back, though.

7)ON GARRICK, Is this the only point you could get ? I think it came up after a thorough search on the net.

A thorough search on the net? I have relatives that went to the school named after him. I've known who he is a for a while, More unfounded assumptions. And how can one even search on the net for something as general as a non-Bini who was given a title and somehow come up with his specific name (Garrick) or a link about him through a search anyways?! Do you even know how searches work? That's not even probable.

I was not suprised that Garrick was granted "baronnic lands" in a frontier province as a bulwark against Ijaw expansion and it sounded nice since the entre area itself was not densely populated.

It's good that you finally have the guts to admit to Ijaw expansionism in lands they are not indigenous to. Siluko was not in any way founded by Ijaws and all the Ijaws there migrated there not in ancient times, but much later. Of course, now it is being used for claims for new Ijaw LGAs by some groups.

I also find it curious on the lists of Garrick's descendants included the famous Alagoa family of Nembe Bayelsa State and Gwam family of Asaba (in Aniomaland) and yet despite being the "Egaibu" or whatever of Siluko none of his supposed descendants is from Edo state where a school is named after him. Aniomalands also have examples of people in the mould of Garrick.A good example is Zappa of Asaba who is an Italian (priest) settler in the community and whose name is now used as the name of one of the primary schools in the town.

Why is it curious that his descendants are Ijaw, Igbo or Yoruba? I don't even understand this claim. Who was claiming that he really "integrated" or "assimilated" even the least bit into Edo society? Weren't you the one trying to claim that someone had to be integrated into Edo society to receive a title? One particular Dutch trader (Abrams Raems) was given an honorary title in Benin in the 1700s! (you should have known this already, Mr. Expert) Your claim was rubbish.

Yeah, I'm quite familiar with Father Carlo Zappa who went there and chastised the people for human sacrifice and other things, but I don't recall reading that he was granted a title by anybody.