₦airaland Forum

KunleOshob:
Tithes is tithes and it is clearly defined in the old testament (A tenth of what the field produces each year)

When people make this assumption, my question is simply this: is 1% the same thing as 10%?

KunleOshob:
@Pilgrim

Are you trying to confuse us here?

Not at all. If anyone thought I was trying to do so, they would have said the same thing. One thing I wanted to call your attention to was the fact that making false allegations against people is unhealthy. If there was something that was not clear to you, I would be glad to point it out. But to deliberately allege what you did is quite an extremum - and that was why I had to post those reminders.

Regards.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
As usual pilgrim is dancing round in circles, sarmy asked a specific question about why the apostles and jesus never preached tithes in the new testament and she is answering by using examples in the old testment that have no direct bearing on the question asked

Reminder:

1. [list][list][quote author=pilgrim.1](1) But the word “tithes” or “tithing” is not found in the NT.

This is one of the basic mistakes people use as arguments for not understanding the subject. However, the words ‘tithe’ (Matt. 23:23), ‘tithes’ (Luke 18:12 & Hebrews 7:6, 8, 9), and ‘tenth/tenth parts’ (Hebrews 7:2 & 4) appear in the NT as referenced (using the KJV). Of these references, the first (Matt. 23:23) shows that it was not condemned even by the Lord; while the second set of references discuss this issue on various principles.[/quote][/list][/list]


2. Reminder:

[list][list][quote author=pilgrim.1]Okay, I hear. Was that what I was doing in the following:

      ~ directly addressing your question here

      ~ discussing your question in detail here directly from Scripture

      ~ dealing directly with a few common objections here

      ~ addressing questions following the above consequently

      ~ further questions directly answered subsequently

       ~ yet again other objectives answered directly

If I was "dancing around" in all those answers, I forebear in hope that you would calm down and point out where I was mistaken in all the details I offered. The one thing I noticed though, is your perculiar manner of ducking questions yourself and making these assertions against my entries. It's all good, though. . . as I gain more more people say things which are not true against my submissions.[/quote][/list][/list]

3. Reminder:

[list][list]

But is that not the very thing that several times had been highlighted by several contributors already? Reminder (point #4) :

          _____________________________________________________

            . . . So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed
            the very essence of what tithing points to –
            which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings.
            This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure,
            but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has
            purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).
          _____________________________________________________

[/list][/list]


4. [url=http://]Reminder[/url]:

[list][list]

sarmy:
Let's agree, Paul was refering to tithe in 1 Cor 9:13 but why was it so hard to mention the name directly as in Heb, that was mostly about the presthood of Jesus, not excaltly or directly asking Christians to pay tithe.

Paul was not bogged down with a particular percentage - [size=14pt]and I have often referenced an discussed this at length[/size]. The moment someone is looking for the word "tithe", the issue will be lost upon such a person and they will be pursuing calculations based on figures and percentages! That is not the way God has asked us to look at the value of tithes. I have already shared that the real import of tithes is simply "the best part" or "hallowed part" of all our offerings (see above).

[/list][/list]


Lol. . . @KunleOshob,
My dear lovable bros, I have not been dancing around anything as you can see. I believe that we can all dicuss and eschew any feeling of disaffection. I do not mind people making untrue statements about me or my submissions; but I often wonder what those people gain. Extremum and hubris are not healthy positions to assume - I have often said. God bless you.

@obinna5000,

obinna5000:
@pilgrim.1
Who is the barber that did those crop circles on his chest hair? He is very good.
I don't believe all does crop circle sightings in the USA. Tell me why are there no crop circles in Africa?

Hmm, bros. .  me, I no get answers for the many questions about these orphic phenomena. Although there are an abundance of hoaxes in crop circles, my brother there are many others which science investigators have concluded that they are not man-made. What is even more interesting is that these conclusions have been reached by some who were skeptic about supernatural or paranormal occurences.

Why they don't happen in Africa is like someone saying he does not believe in rainfall because it happens everywhere else except in the Atacama desert!   Click on the link and see why such a person may argue that he does not believe in rainfall - because even though it is said that there has been no rainfall in the Atacama desert for close to 20million years, yet how does the village of San Pedro de Atacama survive such an arid place on planet earth?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Atacama1.jpg/300px-Atacama1.jpg
Reputed to be about 15 million years old and
100 times more arid than California's Death Valley.

Well, obinna5000. . . whether [color=Black]d[/color]em shave crop circle for oyibo man chest or not, there are definitely orphic phenomena in our world. Me, I no get answers to all of [color=Black]d[/color]em and will not pretend any such answers. One thing I know is that even skeptics are not able to deny the reality of these orphic occurences.

Shalom.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgim.1
you are really slowing down your posts on this interesting thread i guess you are spending too much time on the tithes thread

Lol. . . lovable brother! Na true you talk. . I should slow down on the other one on tithes as well so that I can grow this thread. One reason why I have been soooo slow here is because. . m-e-n!! those sites you and some others recommended are just sooo super! I don't even know where to start or how to tie them together so that I don't end up boring or confusing people the more. There's been some clippings here and there that may bring our attention to a few undeniable occurences - and in due course I shall try and post them, in connection with the findings of scientific investigations as to the real cases that have been recorded. Pray for me - I'll share them soon.

@sarmy,

Good to know that you've been refreshed and gained a few inbetween, as I have also learned and gained from both the questions, the critiques (which I welcome wholeheartedly), as well the comments from various others.

sarmy:
I think you are yet to answer directly why the Apostles were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY ordain or teach tithe to the early Church as a subject and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several years later

1. I think the point has been made as to WHY the apostles were not too disturbed about the terms "tithe/tithes". The reason is simple: they wanted us to be more concerned with the spiritual import of tithing - which is simply the "hallowed" or "best" part of any offering we give. To set our eyes on "some calculated % of my income" is to miss the kernel of this ministry.

2. There are other terms even in the Old Testament that point to "tithes" -

           ~ 'all the best part' (Num. 18:29)

           ~ 'the heave offering' (Num. 18:24)

           ~ 'the hallowed part' (Num. 18:29)

           ~ 'the increase of the threshing floor' (Num. 18:30)

           ~ 'the increase of the winepress' (Num. 18:30)

           ~ 'the hallowed things' (Deut. 26:13, KJV, AMP)
              'the sacred portion' (NIV)
 
Please read all those references so that it is clear to you that I was not quoting them out of contexts. It is not the actual term we use that is important, whether ~

                 "tenths"
                 "tithes"
                 "hallowed"
                 "sacred"
                 "best"
                 "heave"

What is important is the real import of what it means. The moment we come back clogged with "1000000[size=14pt]%[/size]" or "how many percent", we simply miss the real value of what God is pointing our hearts to.

A further point: Have you noticed in Deuteronomy 26:12-13 that after the people have tithed, God gave them what to say:

            "Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God,
             I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house".

The question is this, why did God not simply ask them to say rather:

           "I have brought away the TITHE out of my house"?

The issue is simple: God is not asking us even in the OT to be so fastidious about 10%!! That is why He only asked the Levites to wave/heave 1% of the total value of Israel's tithes before His presence and call that 1% as the BEST part!

Just imagine: man values 10% as better than 1%; but with God, He values 1% over 1000%!! Why is this: it because every time you offer to Him, He looks at the heart value, not the figure value. That is why the Lord Jesus valued the widow's two mites much more than the many rich who cast in their much!

Beloved, it is a simple matter: there are many names that tithes are called - don't be stuck on just the one term "TITHES"; you will lose the value by so doing. If you want me to elaborate on where Jesus taught about the tithes, I shall gladly come back and share.

sarmy:
Paul discussed several other issues in the bible DIRECTLY e.g  Charity, Immorality, Speaking in tongue, women covering head, not speaking in Church etc why is TITHE not discussed as a subject DIRECTLY even by our Lord Jesus, and other apostles.

Uhm, Paul did not draw his doctrine of speaking in toungues from the Old Testament, even though it was mentioned or referenced in the OT. For one who is looking for particular terms, there is so much that can be lost if we keep up that exercise. I believe in the doctrine of "rapture", and I have no problem with anyone calling it the "catching away" of the saints. If we argue as to who is using the right and correct terms, we may lose so much and find ourselves unprepared for that glorious event!

Again, I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - whether someone else comes and speaks of the same thing as the Godhead or the Trinity, we may lose so much arguing about terms rather than enjoy the divine fellowship God has called us into.

The terms are not that important to me - more than that is the blessing of knowing the real meaning of what tithes are pointing to.

sarmy:
This will help us to know if the term TITHE is that important under new testament, or just GIVING as led by God, I learnt there are churches today that do not teach tithe but just GIVING.

If those churches do not teach tithes, it may be because they don't want to offend anybody. That does not mean that just because we don't find the term "TITHE" as "giving", therefore we can't teach it - just as we don't find so many terms for what we believe in our Christian faith.

Blessings.

@Fifio,

How body?

FifiO:
@Pilgrim.1

Simple reason. People feel betrayed by the wrong doctrines they have been taught by the very people they trusted to nurture them. If I was in the church where a pastor proclaimed a curse on his members for failing to pay tithes, boy I would be pissed! I bet any one would too, even if they did not know what we here know. Afterall, who goes to church to recieve a curse? I dodge!

Hmm, na wah! Should I even start to tell of the things I have heard from a few churches when I just came to Christ? My sis, I don hear worse things O! But my mouth no fit talk wetin my nose smell! Sure, I have heard very bitter things than "curses/cursed" from a few who have not handled this issue properly; but what about the things I have said in error about such men? I learnt that if I drive rough with my mouth at anyone, one day the Lord Himself will ask me to account for such rough-talk!

Today, by His grace, I've learnt to rest in His care and love, forgiveness and refreshment. God bless you plenty.

obinna5000:
@pilgrim.1
How are you?

Bros obinna500, I just dey. . . thank God for His daily mercies. And you?

@anonimi,

Thank you for calmly calling my attention to a few serious issues; and I see that you've added the link-wrap! Good one there!

anonimi:

(d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them!

pilgrim.1,

would you be kind enough to distinguish between forcing someone to do something and telling the person he is required to do it, where the person giving the instruction is in a position of authority over the other?

I think the point between "force" and "required" in the context of our discussions is simply the same. Let me refer you once again to what I stated earlier by repetition:

                ____________________________________________________________

                 'I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes
                 have nothing to do with the idea of ~

                           DEMAND,
                           COERSION,
                           COMPULSION,
                           FORCE,
                           CAJOLING,
                           MANIPULATION,
                           INDOCTRINATION,
                           . . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!!
                ____________________________________________________________

Consequently, I also came back recently and noted that even the apostle Paul when dealing with this issue about the ministry of the saints, said plainly: "I speak not by commandment" (2 Cor. 8:8); even though he had told the same Corinthians that such an issue had been "ordained" by the Lord (1 Cor. 9:14). Is this some sort of "divine oxymoron"? No, and let me help to put it in perspective:

Under the new covenant, God does not force anyone anywhere to obey what He has ordained or commanded, because He seeks to draw out the heart of the believer by the leading of the Holy Spirit alone. In some very crucial matters such as the doctrine of truth versus heresies on such questions as the Person of Christ, the apostles were firm and would admit no difference of opinions on such events as people preaching "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4) or a perverted Gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). The second instance is where we find that an anathema (curse) was called upon those going about with a perverted gospel - and when we search the Word, we know what exactly the nature of that perverted "gospel" is. In such matters, the apostles were firm.

But what about this particular issue as pertaining to the collection for the saints? Here, the apostles had just two balanced teachings on it:

(a) on the one hand, people are encouraged to give in support of the saints (both the poor, and the elders, as well as the ministers of the Gospel); and they noted that even where the Lord had ordained such a ministry, it is not to be forced upon anyone - for those who give are blessed, and there is no anathema upon those who reject giving tithes. The point is simply that the Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking (Rom. 14:17).

(b) on the other hand, people who give are asked to be careful to not be misled by those who are driven into ministry for filthy lucre's sake (Titus 1:11). Is it not remarkable that nowhere do the apostles use uncouth language to castigate or slur such men, even though what they are doing is wrong? Rather than be bogged down with such and become bitter, the apostles simply taught how to recognize those who are of "perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds" and we should withdraw from them (1 Tim. 6:3-6).

This is why I have learned two things:

      1. shut up and move on if I have no answers
          rather than suffer my mouth to sin

      2. share helpful insights where others are seeking
          and withdraw (or fold myself away) from perverse wranggling.

Dear brother, it is easy to spot others who are into the business of filthy lucre; but if we have nothing to offer that may be helpful ("wholesome words" - 1 Tim. 6:3), then we should not suffer our hearts to grow bitter for the sake of such men of "corrupt minds".

anonimi:
Have you considered very seriously 1 John 4 v. 1:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

There are similar injuctions in the Bible. You can see Criticise Not
I would rather obey God's word rather than shy away from "castigating" a pastor dpeddling falsehood for the sake of mammon. I hope you remember God's wrath on disobedience in King Saul's case, despite his lame excuse of wanting to offer sacrifice and that of Jonah.
Stay blessed.

I have considered the verses you recommended, and thank you so much.

However, I can't see it anywhere that God has granted me the ministry of castigating anyone. I have done it in the past, and believe me I was never refreshed by the Holy Spirit each time I did so. But after learning my lessons, I am very careful these days what I say to anybody and about anyone.

Even in Saul's case, after his error was pointed out, you will not find any Godly man castigating him. Surprised? Please calmly go and search and see for yourself. Yes, we may be angry at such men for their errors; but we remember that the Holy Spirit says we should "be angry but sin not".

And what about Jonah's case? No castigation there either! God gently exposes the prophet's anger and leaves him a question of the heart. Incidentally, that is one out of two books in the entire Bible that ends with a question! Beloved, no matter what we see in our day, let us always set out eyes and hearts on what God has stated, rather than on what men have done with that!

Shalom.

@sarmy,

How body? Thank you for always bringing in balanced questions to help us learn more about this subject; and no, I don't feel you're drawing us back.

sarmy:
However, could it be that early Christians were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to DIRECTLY mention, require, command, demand it from early Church and why no record of early church paying tithe until several, several years later

There are several questions there, and here are a few answers:

1. The Holy Spirit will not force anyone to do anything - and that is why it was not treated in the NT as a matter of what was "required", "commanded", or "demanded". The NT simply tells us that "there He receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that He liveth" (Heb. 7:8). Our spiritual lives under the new covenant began by our "receiving" the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12) - God did not "force" or "demand" anyone to receive Jesus. In the same way, He will not force anyone to give anything for His Kingdom, which is why it is not a matter of compulsion for the Christian, even though He ordained it (1 Cor. 9:14).

2. Tithes were indeed mentioned by the early Christians - and we have seen it in the epistles to the Hebrews (again, it was the first point #1 I mentioned previously).

3. The Church gave tithes, but many people have not seen it. Surprised? Well, when you refer to 1 Corinthians 16:2, you will come to understand that Paul was directly referring to tithes for the simple reason that the Corinthians were wondering what to do about the issue. He noted in his second epistle that the Corinthians themselves were excellent givers and supporters of ministering to the saints (2 Corinthians 8), but he did not make it an issue of "commandment" (2 Cor. 8:8). In the next chapter 9, he again noted that their zeal had provoked very many others (v.1-2).

However, one needs seriously ask: if he already knew that they were excellent givers, why then would he have tried to give specific instructions in 1 Corinthians 16 and speak about HOW they were to lay aside something for the "ministry of the saints" (v.1-2) on the first of every week?!? Have you ever wondered what he meant by "as God hath prospered him" in verse 2? Compare this with other versions, such as the AMP which says:

    ". . put aside something and save it up
     as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given]"

Although so many people today kick against this idea of "proportion", I have no qualms that the AMP captured the essence of what Paul was driving at. The apostle was not concerned with a particular amount in terms of 10%, 76.5% or even 100%. The principle is this: if you want to measure up anything, do it "in proportion to"how God has blessed you; but he went on to note that there were some who "have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints" (verse 15). This is simply the undergirding point, that he was not particular about how much in %, but rather the spiritual value of such giving.

Now, a very important thing that we must observe here. When people to run encyclopedia Britannica or Wikipedia, I simply shake my head in pity. Have we so failed to realise that when these people quote from such sources, they are quoting only part of the history of Christianity and not what actually happened as observed in Scripture? This is why so many people are confusing TITHES for TAX when they are clearly not the same! But such secular sources have blurred the lines so that believers who are not keenly observant will just rush and post them as if those sources are defining the Christian faith! If you refer to those sources about the doctrines of Christian practice, you may come away feeling all the more confused about what actually defines your faith.

An example was quoted above where I noted that people are to much in a rush to quote such sources because they have failed to see that the article was referring to issues which happened "in the course of time" and as a result "the principle of payment of tithes was extended far beyond its original intention." If you rest your mind on such articles, they will obfuscate issues for you all the more, because those articles are not looking at what was the "original intention" of tithes - which was simply the ministry of the saints (1 Cor. 16:1).

Hmm, people. . . may God grant us sharp discernment to be careful how we read issues (Luke 10:26 - "how readest thou".

sarmy:
Let's agree, Paul was refering to tithe in 1 Cor 9:13 but why was it so hard to mention the name directly as in Heb, that was mostly about the presthood of Jesus, not excaltly or directly asking Christians to pay tithe.

Paul was not bogged down with a particular percentage - and I have often referenced an discussed this at length. The moment someone is looking for the word "tithe", the issue will be lost upon such a person and they will be pursuing calculations based on figures and percentages! That is not the way God has asked us to look at the value of tithes. I have already shared that the real import of tithes is simply "the best part" or "hallowed part" of all our offerings (see above).

sarmy:
I'm not drawing us back on this, but could it have been that the Apostles were not keen to the name TITHE though any % of ones income is welcome in support of the gospel, either 10% or 100%

The apostles were not keen to name anything specifically - and neith can anyone find the term "freewill offerings" in the NT, even though it appears in the OT. The difference is that they rather looked at the spiritual value of what was given, not the calculated figures.

sarmy:
I think we can see from all passages submitted earlier, no DIRECT use of the name TITHE as new testament church form of giving.

No direct use of the term "freewill offerings" either.

Blessings.

KunleOshob:
Ooparts: scientific and archaelogical evidence of God and the super natural http://www.s8int.com/ http://www.s8int.com/dna1.html

Thank you for that. God bless you many times today. . . and always.

I'm not a PRO for Christ Embassy; but one thing I have learnt is what I'll share here:

@topic: "Chris Oyakhilome Is A Phoney"

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
to his own master he standeth or falleth.
Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

James 3:8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Complaining on the basis of suspicion is quite unhelpful: because such an adventure will come back to hurt no one other than the complainer. Those who are convinced that the topic has any substance should hold concrete evidence. . or be careful what they say about someone merely on the basis of 'hearsays' or 'suspicions'.

Shalom.

@donnie,

donnie:
Pastor chris is known @ CEC to be the first and biggest giver at all times, all he has belongs to God and so it is with several other of his close pastors.

Okay. .

donnie:
by faith he stopped recieving a salary from the church several years ago.

donnie:
I thot he was the only preacher who lived like that until i recently hrd Oyedepo say that till date he has never taken a dime from the sale of a single book.

These are good examples that should make some of us think more closely. I also know of some who do not receive wages from their service to others in Christ's Name; although they have some good jobs and are content with secular income. I just needed to highlight this point so that people should be careful to not generalize issues and assume that every pastor is in the ministry for filthy lucre.

My dear brother @donnie,

1.

donnie:
. . .So what does that make u and ur fans Paul? false witnesses and candidates for hell fire!

2.

donnie:
. . now what does that make u and ur fans? False accusers; People on the express way to hell, and at full speed!

3.

donnie:
. . now what does that make u and ur fans? False accusers; People on the express way to hell, and at full speed!

Beloved, whatever are the passions at issues, let's rely on the Spirit of God to help us not be driven to extremes. I can understand your angst, but don't let a marvellous work be dampened by extreme passions as are observed above. May God bless you for your labours for His Name.

Cayon:
You see, tithes were part of the law that Jesus fulfilled, and is no longer binding on Christians.
Lev. 27:30; girl 3:10-13

Hi Cayon,

Tithes came before the Law; and what the Law did not originate, it cannot in this case nullify.

The real import of one's Tithes is not about how much we measure in percentage (%). The moment people get to understand that point, they will see what Abraham saw that moved him to offer tithes to melchizedek without a LAW.

What is the real import of Tithes?

It is simply what God refers to as 'the best part' or 'the hallowed part' of all our offerings, whatever they may be (which does not have to rest solely on money).

(A) our tithes are the hallowed things: [Deut. 26:12-14]

When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase
the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto
the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may
eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away
the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto
the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow,
according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me:
I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:

I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought
thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have
hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to
all that thou hast commanded me.


(B) our tithes are the hallowed things: [Numbers 18:12, 29, 30, 32]

All the best of the oil, and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat,
the firstfruits of them which they shall offer unto the LORD,
them have I given thee.

Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the LORD,
of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.

Therefore thou shalt say unto them,
When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted
unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor,
and as the increase of the winepress.

And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it
the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children
of Israel, lest ye die.


People, your tithes are not a matter of "maybe/maybe not". Because the tithes are pointing to how the believer values his/her offering, that is why it was incorporated into the LAW; and the LAW could not nullify "the hallowed things" of any man's offering. The mistake people often make is to treat this very important matter with blithe unconcern - like a "common" and nonchallant aspect of our lives. This is why we have to look beyond the word "tithe" and examine Scripture to see its real value and how God has described it in Scripture. It is for this reason God does not ask for a particular percentage and wants to draw the heart of the believer by faith. Faith is the very thing that underscored Abraham's life (Galatians 3:7)

It is okay for the individual to choose what to do with their "best part/hallowed part" - to give the best/hallowed part, or to choose not to do so. I have consistently proffered that God will not force anyone to obey what He has ordained (1 Cor. 9:14). The principle of "cheerful giving" is what underscores your hallowed offerings. . . and if anyone chooses to "cheerfuly" reject to offer his/her "best" to God, He will not force such a person as to what to do.

Shalom.

Backslider:
Apart from looking like an Idol Worshipper? well you can also add artificial breast, remove your male reproductive organ and wear High heels. You will be well out of the stereotype of the Church.

Lol, he was only sharing his persuasion about hair and there's no need to do him a slice.

@m_nwankwo,

[quote author=m_nwankwo link=topic=173782.msg2918880#msg2918880 date=1223569354]The message of Jesus Christ in my perception is different from the bible.[/quote]Lol, that is all there is to this discussion - I already knew that it is difficult for adherents of the Grail Message to see the message of the Bible; so it does not come as a surprise to distance themselves from it while making recourse to what is undeniably Biblical.

I read through your arguments, but I don't see how you addressed the points I raised. Consequently, let me not put you to further tedium. Do have a wonderful evening.

@KunleOshob,

Let me quote you so that I don't run the risk of misreading your lines:
           ________________________________________________________________

            "any preacher or pastor preaching tithes as a percentage of income
             is already abusing the biblical concept of tithes
           ________________________________________________________________


But is that not the very thing that several times had been highlighted by several contributors already? Reminder (point #4) :

           _____________________________________________________

             . . . So, if someone is looking for exactly 10%, they have missed
             the very essence of what tithing points to –
             which is the ‘best/hallowed part’ of our offerings.
             This is why the NT does not stipulate an exact figure,
             but simply says that it should be ‘according to what a man has
             purposed in his heart’ (2 Cor. 9:7).
           _____________________________________________________


I'm sure that the point has been made several times that tithes is far more than money or the percentage (%) that anyone is trying to calculate. It does not always have to stick our minds on "how much" but rather should look at the spiritual value of that ministry.

FifiO:
@pilgrim.1
If I understand your point, tithing is a principle older than law but incorporated in the law. Abraham gave tithes instintively, or shall I say by the leading of God's Spirit. We should not feel compelled to tithe but as  Paul argues, it is good to give it since we understand that it is useful to the church as it was to the priests of the old testament,,  am I getting you right??

@Fifio,

No mind me, I don talk say sometimes my wahala too much.

Anyhow, you’re not far wrong from (infact, closer to) my persuasions on this matter. I’m sorry that it seemed at one point as though we were being careless to have let in rancour – but that was unintended, and I’m sure that Kunle would agree.

Now, the sum of what most of us have been saying are:

      1. there is nothing wrong with Christians tithing or not tithing

      2. to preach tithing in the NT needs to be properly balanced

      3. failure to balance this subject will lead many to become bitter

      4. such failure manifests where some leaders use Malachi 3 to ‘curse’ Christians

      5. besides, tithing is not all about money

      6. the real value of tithing is not “how much” but rather “what is”

      7. this value simply points to the ‘best part’ of all our offerings

      8. this is why tithes or any other offering is not a matter of how much %

      9. there is no verse in the NT (at least IMHO) where anything is required

    10. consequently, no compulsion, demand, or force is placed on us
           -  whether it is gifts or offerings of any kind.

For the other arguments advanced, my simple point is this: if we all agree that there is nothing wrong with tithing, then WHY is it making some people so bitter after admitting that nothing is wrong with it?

Anyway, I have learnt and am still learning from the fresh insights on the subject. Many blessings.

KunleOshob:
by the time you browse through the listed sites you would realise that tithes as always had a history of corruption, abuse, extortion, manipulation and deceit.

@KunleOshob,

It's okay. We all know that whatever God has given, man has always tended to abuse it. You name anything at all it is that God has given to us, and you will find that not in a single case has it escaped man's attempt to corrupt, abuse, manipulate it to deceive others. But does that make the blessing itself to be a "corrupt doctrine"? We all know the answer to that. My submission therefore is that we don't allow man's tendencies to rob us of what God has given us - by extension, we should not rest our hearts on the abuses of man, but rather seek what God has said on any matter.

As Christians, we can share matters amicably in the love of Christ. I learn everyday; and if an issue tends to make tempers rise, my inclination is to fold myself away for a while until we can find an enabling environment to discuss. Yes, it is alright for anyone to disagree with me or others; but we can still rejoice in the love of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Abundant blessings to you.

KunleOshob:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War
The British Government was alarmed by several aspects of this massacre: by the fact that the order to fire was given by an anglican clergyman, by the pittance involved in relation to the bloodshed, and by the fact that the people had withstood several volleys and at least one charge by the troops without breaking.

That's simply because. . .

KunleOshob:
Tithes were, by that enactment, to be applied to the maintenance of the bishop, clergy, the poor, and the fabric of the church. In the course of time the principle of payment of tithes was extended far beyond its original intention.

KunleOshob:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe_War
>snip<
Tithe War is the forgotten story of almost 100,000 tithe-paying farmers and landowners whose fight for a just and equitable end to an archaic tax spanned the inter-war years of the 20th century.

Tithes are NOT equal to Taxes. [2 Kings 23:35 and Daniel 11:20].

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
*I am now convinced that Pilgrim and i cannot possibly be speaking the same language(english) else i cannot rationalize how she still manages to argue so much when that facts are soo obvious and has been stated clearly in this forum.

I did not seek anywhere to rationalize anything - and that was why I asked questions, waited several pages after you guys roundly ignored them, then I went on to deal with them in detail, before asking a few further questions - which again you have ignored with excuses. If you had any substance to offer, what could be simpler than doing so by showing HOW, WHERE and WHY I might have been mistaken? Not that I'm seeking any applause for correctness, because I said several times that we might be wrong; but was it too much to forebear and ask simple questions which should have been answered after I came back to set them in simple outlines?

KunleOshob:
You never address any issues, you just dance round them in circles.

Okay, I hear. Was that what I was doing in the following:

      ~ directly addressing your question here

      ~ discussing your question in detail here directly from Scripture

      ~ dealing directly with a few common objections here

      ~ addressing questions following the above consequently

      ~ further questions directly answered subsequently

       ~ yet again other objectives answered directly

If I was "dancing around" in all those answers, I forebear in hope that you would calm down and point out where I was mistaken in all the details I offered. The one thing I noticed though, is your perculiar manner of ducking questions yourself and making these assertions against my entries. It's all good, though. . . as I gain more more people say things which are not true against my submissions.

KunleOshob:
*Abraham's tithe was free will not commanded or demanded like today's version.

Nobody has demanded me to give tithes. Why then are you going about forcing your own ideas on others?

KunleOshob:
*Free will is free will so stop trying to make a terminology out of it

That does not answer the simple question I offered that you should go and study it.

KunleOshob:
*Thirdly if you cannot come up with any clear cut instructon in the new testament requiring christians to tithe, i suggest you rest your case because i wouldn't continue a discussion were i am not getting any subsatnce from( only shaft)

I'm so sorry that you've missed the whole point by many miles! WHERE did I ever say that we as Christians are REQUIRED to give anything, KunleOshob? If you're so driven to look for a "requirement", you would never have seen me address that issue repeatedly already!

KunleOshob:
Look my dear if you want to tithe, you are free to nobody is stopping you and there is nothing wrong with it, the only thing that is wrong is the widespread deception about it which most people are ignorant about.

Kunle bros, if "there is nothing wrong with it" by your own admission, WHY are you so bitter about tithing?

KunleOshob:
I don't know why you are so bothered self after all everything i have said about tithing is based on scripture and the facts are very obvious.

Nope, your calling tithe a "false doctrine" is not based on Scripture but rather on your own bitterness because of what you have heard from others.

KunleOshob:
Do you have a propblem with people knowing the truth about this false doctrine

I am very interested in letting people know that false ideas being paraded by people who have no answers to simple questions cannot be called"Scripture". Bitterness from men who accuse everyone else cannot be called Scripture. Accusing God's Word of what He never called tithing is not 'Scripture'. These matters invite my discussions to point these things out so that no root of bitterness will pervade us in our day.

Shalom.

KunleOshob:
offerings is free will while tithes is not,

Then who FORCED Abraham to tithe to Melchizedek?

KunleOshob:
i see you have a way with using words to distort facts.

Would it not be more helpful to show us where I have done so by answering questions directly instead of always seeking to castigate others?

KunleOshob:
you keep on hammering that free will is not stated in the new testament, the fact is this is an english expression that aptly describes the kind of offerings required of christians.

If you find it in the NT, please post it. The complaining is not helping your arguments - just simply post the NT verse, thank you.

KunleOshob:
Whether "free will" or "give freelly" it means the same thing so stop hanging on to semantics and address issues.

I have addressed the issue in detail, please scroll up and share.

The only reason why I mentioned the "freewill offerings" is to help us confront our hypocrisy directly that while we may kick against tithes, the same "freewill offerings" we use are not mentioned one single time in the NT! So, if someone accuses you of peddling a false doctrine by the term "freewill offerings" when it is not a NT term, why would you pick offence at that? Go back and read the teaching of freewill offerings and see how very misled you are!

Freewill offering(s) = used only in the OT
Tithe(s) used in both the OT and NT

Why are people so happy to diss tithes (OT and NT) when the word "freewill offerings" does not appear once in the NT? That is simply hypocrisy, because what you call "freewill offerings" is a totally different thing in the Bible! Please calm down and go back and check carefully.

That is not to say that I do not believe that people can give freely - I do. But you're making so much about tithes as a matter of compulsion, and that is why I'm asking you directly: who compelled Abraham to tithe to melchizedek? Is it not true that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek "freely"?

KunleOshob:
Also the statement that God never described tithing as false you keep on repeating as been thoroughly addressed and the reason is clear even to primary school student.

Is it a hard thing for you to stop accusing the term where God never so accused it? Why is it that non-tithers cannot simply speak about this matter until they have revealed their bitter hearts? Where is the grace in that sort of attitude?

if God never accused that term, do not try to keep harping on it to mislead people. Whatever any pastor or MOG has turned it into, we can boldly and happily share the truth about this matter witout recourse to such accusations. I am happy to do so, and I hope after now you can find the calmness to look at the Word and not what someone is making you feel about it. I am begging, dear brother.

KunleOshob:
TITHING AS NO PLACE IN CHRISTIANITY UNDER ANY FORM OR SHAPE. and that is the point i am tryin to make.

I know. . . I know. That is simply what you are persuaded about, not so? Okay, I hear. But others see a few things you have ignored: is it too much that they ask questions as well?

KunleOshob:
pastor should stop deceiving the children of God and allow them to decide what they want to give. If the pastor is not satified then he should take up a Job or business like apostle paul did who was probably the greatest of the apostles.

I don't think a pastor who has the integrity to teach the real purpose of tithes is deceiving anyone. If a child of God decides to tithe because he/she knows the value of such a ministry, what is the quarrel there?

There are many pastors I know who are in very good jobs and they both teach tithes as well as give their own tithes to the Church where they minister. I know a few others among that group who refuse to take any salaries even though they also tithe as well. You see, just because a few men are messing about here and there on this matter, it does not mean that others who have the integrity to teach these matters should therefore be called theives and manipulators. That is quite unfair, and it shows we have no fear of God in our own hearts. What if we stand before Christ on that day and He shows us how wrong we have been to falsely accuse pastors - even those pastors who teach tithes but do not take wages themselves? What then would be your own reaction?

Dear KunleOshob, I am not patronizing you or anyone on this subject; but let me share my heart with you. Just imagine that I, pilgrim.1, am wrong in everything I have shared. What do I stand to lose if I never accused anyone with slobbers? But what would your case be if you discover that you were also wrong, but God shows you that accusing others was not His plan for you - especially when you don't know every single pastor's life who teaches about tithes?

Let us help ourselves here: we can talk about this issue without accusing anyone. We may both be right on a few things, or wrong on everything. Whatever is the case, we can help our own hearts to be devoid of ill-feelings toward anyone. As the apostle said:

"And herein do I exercise myself,
to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."
~~ Acts 24:16

God bless you dear brother.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@Pilgim
1 corinthians 9:13,14 was clearly inferring to church offerings and definitely not tithes, i belieive it is mischievious and manipulative to try and draw a parallel.

That’s alright – at least that’s your view, and it’s well appreciated.

There’s just one thing though: even when someone may assert that 1 Cor. 9:13-14 was referring to church offerings, the basic questions still remain unanswered. If I may help you find them in more simple terms, here’s what I was asking that you help us identify:

(A) What did the apostle mean when he said:

            “Do ye not know that
             they which minister about holy things
             live of the things of the temple?” (v. 13)

What particularly was the apostle pointing to about –
             ● “they which minister about”
             ●  “the holy things”
             ●  “the temple”?
In other words, does this have anything to do with the OT or not?

                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

(B) What did the apostle mean when he said:

           “Even so hath the Lord ordained that
            they which preach the gospel
            should live of the gospel.” (v. 14)

What particularly was the apostle pointing to when he stated:
            ● “Even so. . .”
            ● “hath the Lord ordained”
            ● “they which preach the Gospel”
            ● “should live of the Gospel”?


What exactly I’m looking for in your answers are the following:

   1. whether there is any connection with the OT in verse 13
   2. whether there was no such connection in any way in verse 13
   3. If there were not such connection, why did the apostle ask:
             “Do ye not know that. . .”
  and then goes on to mention both the ‘temple’ and the ‘altar’?

I appreciate where you stand on this matters. But I have often shared that it is not in place to be bitter or use slobbering accusations against anyone for teaching tithes or other offerings. I know a lot of people merely make assertions and are not interested in looking closely at what the Bible teaches - and that is why I approach this issue by first asking questions.

Anyone can come and make assertions. But what happens when they cannot answer basic questions about the verses where they set their ideas upon? If after your assertions and mine, a few questions are asked to call our attention to the verses we are discussing and we cannot answer them directly, what then are we doing? The result has always been the case - everytime someone has no answers for his/her presumptions, they resort to bitterness, wrangling and uncouth slobberings against other people. That is not what God has called me to do; and if I'm not going to provide direct answers, I would rather pass on than descend lower than my station.

Now, we don’t know what to make of the report of crop circle designs mysteriously  appearing on human and animal bodies. No, I’m not kidding – a few reports are out there of crop circle designs on a man’s chest as well on a passive cat. Whether or not the carriers of the report were kidding, I don’t know: you may just want to read through for yourself.

           _________________________________________________________________________

            Extraterrestrials Leave Crop Circles in Cat’s Fur

            https://www.catnabbit.com/buttons/cropcirclecat.png

           Like any other British moggie, Bianca naps for 18 hours a day. She eats an average diet
           and lives a normal life. In her spare time, she enjoys shredding paper towels and swatting
           things that move on the telly. Everyone is puzzled as to why aliens chose this particular cat
           for their latest “crop circle” prank after nearly thirty years of mowing crop circles in
           the fields of Wiltshire.

           It is believed that crop circles form as a result of the flight and landing patterns of flying
           saucers, or UFO’s for short. England has been plagued with visits from these strange
           vehicles since the late 1890’s, but only recently has the phenomena become famous.
           A number of cats have reported alien abductions in relation to crop circle formations in
           their area, but none of these have been confirmed.

          Bianca’s case is the first recorded incident in which a crop circle has formed in a cat’s fur.
          On the left side of her back and abdomen, aliens have etched what appears to be the shape
          of many circles that altogether look like a fish with pellets shooting out of its mouth.

         “I believe that it is a message from our brothers from Planet Hsif,” Bianca said in an
         interview on Wednesday. “They must think that we should prepare for a battle with
         Earth’s fish.”

        Although Bianca does not recall being abducted by aliens, she reports that her bottom does
        “feel a bit sore” and she plans to stay home for a few days to rest up.

         source:  Cat Nabbit
           _________________________________________________________________________

More Crop Circles

What fascinates us is the precision of the intricate designs over large areas of fields. Especially the geometric and other daedal outlines add to the wonder of this phenomena, that even among those that are man-made, they are so arresting! I’m sure some others have come across even more elaborate designs, but for those who need easily accessible examples, enjoy the following:


https://www.cabiz.net/zolaric/ccposter.jpg

https://cabiz.net/heartlink/2008/2008.h28.jpg

https://www.nextnature.net/research/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/042_crop.jpg

https://www.se51.net/devnull/wp-content/gallery/crop-circles/thumbs/thumbs_crop_circles_swirl.jpg

idupaul:
ok, am good; hw are u doing?

Bros, I'm doing good - and very grateful to God for all things. Sorry I've been a bit slow in growing this thread; but as soon as I'm a bit more settled, you find plenty to interest you. Cheers.

reindeer:
Dear sis
I'm fine o and hanging on to the presence of God as my life depends on it, i registered for some daily bible study stuffs online and i get daily promises, and i now share a prayer sms group with a few of my new friends.
its great and God has been good to me, things that normally would have gotten me down now elicit chuckles from me, thanks for your prayers and this goes to everyone who has prayed and has been praying for me.
May his peace extend to all those on nairaland!!
God bless nairaland.

jesus is lord!!

@reindeer,

Wow! That is just brilliant! Your life since coming to know the love of Christ has been such an encouragement to so many others – almost every other day when someone drops me a line, there’s been mention of you; and I’m so thankful that the focus has shifted from me to more about what the wonderful power of Jesus Name can do in somebody’s life. May your joy ever abound. Jesus is indeed Lord.

@All,

Just so you don't misunderstand what my aim is, let me outline them:

(a) I'm least interested in what any pastor anywhere has turned tithes into. Rather than waste my time condemning anyone, I would rather share what I see in God's Word. leave those men alone and let God deal with them directly.

(b) It is not in the least of my interest to be engulfed in quarrels with any pastor; so there is just no way I would become bitter just because someone said something I don't agree with during Church service. That is not helping me or anyone else.

(c) Now, if I'm going to help myself or anyone else, I should be willing to consider everything that others are saying. Is it possible that while we think we know it all, we might be unfairly accusing pastors on the basis of our own ignorance? Perhaps we may feel that they are wrong in certain places (as I shared above on malachi 3); but rather than slobber them and reveal my own ungodliness, why don't I rather share why I may not agree with them?

(d) For instance, sarmy asked me a pointed question about using Malachi 3 to force people to tithe. I shared with him why my answer is NO; and opened up a few reasons why I don't think anyone is correct to curse any Christian. It is not in my place to castigate any pastor who does this - because by castigating them, I am doing the very same thing for which I accuse them!

(e) I think it is more helpful for people to simply share, debate healthily, avoid uncouth accusations against anyone, and contribute questions that constructively critique our submissions. If this is not helpful, pilgrim.1 is not in the habit of castigating any pastor; for it is not in my place to judge anything before that time when Christ will do so (1 Cor. 4:5).

God bless us all.

@anonimi,

anonimi:
pilgrim.1,

I think you have, in your recent responses, moved away from the question of whether tithes are obligatory or not and using Biblical references that encourage giving in general terms to God's work and ministers to give cover to those who are tithe-mongers.

Unfortunately, quite to the contrary of your submissions, I have not moved away from tithes and have only expounded more on the subject. The reason why I came back detailed in my response was because the few questions I offered were largely ignored and people just went on making excuses of whether Abraham tithed once, or Levi took tithe by a Law, or whether Malachi 3 was a problem or not. Such things were scuttling round the real issues about tithes; and after dealing with them, I also came back to comprehensively addressed the question of whether or not tithes were obligatory. If you thought I had not dealt directly with that, what then was I talking about in this reposte when I stated:

______________________________________________________________

'I don't think you have noticed how many people ackowledge that tithes have
nothing to do with the idea of ~

DEMAND,
COERSION,
COMPULSION,
FORCE,
CAJOLING,
MANIPULATION,
INDOCTRINATION,
. . . or any other ONOMATOMANIA!!
______________________________________________________________

There was not one place where I tried to make tithes obligatory for the Christian; and my recent inputs should have made my position clear for anyone to see that NOTHING is made obligatory for the Christian! Even the argument of some people that they should give "freewill offerings" is a farce, because there is no verse in the New Testament where you find that word! The idea that "other types of giving" are encouraged is a lazy way of looking at this profoudn subject, because those who are so lazy to study God's Word are too much in a haste to accuse others and come away bitter. That is not my problem, nor do I wish anyone to remain in that position - and that is why I took time to set the issue straight by looking at it in detail. If people cannot deal with the issues I raised particularly about 1 Corinthains 9:13-14, then it is no surprise that this subject continues to elude them. And sir, being elusive on any verse of the Bible is not the same thing as dealing with it directly.

anonimi:
I detect from your earlier submissions that you realise tithes are not required of Christians, we are to give as we freely want to and that may be 100% of income and even assets in some instances based on what revelation the individual has received directly from God just as was the case of the widow of Zarephat.

True, we are not required to give anything! If anyone wants to give, let them do so and not make a doctrine out of accusing others who tithe. Just as people refer to tithes as "false doctrine" when God never called it such, we should all realize that God does not REQUIRE anyone to obey what He has ORDAINED (1 Cor. 9:14)!

anonimi:
Please note that this is different from whan a pastor says somone will receive financial miracle if he gives 100%, in a congregation of two or more people- that is fraud.

Sorry, I was not discussing any pastor's "fraud" - my eyes were on the Bible, and not a denominational bulletin.

anonimi:
I also perceive that lately you are taking this as a competition of sorts that you can and should win.

Not at all. I could be very firm - and have stated why I take that position. People who pretend they know God's Word on this subject and accuse others of manipulation or thieves just because they mention the word "tithes" are not helping themselves or others. Such an attitude is unhealthy. I appreciate people disagreeing with my submissions - but not when they try to argue their position by what some pastor said here, there or anywhere.

anonimi:
Unfortunately by so doing you may be leaving yourself open to misrepresenting Christ whom you set out to uphold.

Lol, why don't you guys simply open your Bibles and share? What is all this complaining about when the same misrepresentations are being poured out derisively from some of us who are deliberately calling tithes the very thing God never onced called it in the bible?

anonimi:
I beseech you my dear siter to tread carefully and reflect fully on what you write and what these 419 pastors may do with it.
Shalom.

Thank you. As you can see, anyone who reads and knows WHY a pastor cannot call a curse on a believer will be able to identify 419 "pastors". Is that not clear enough?

Shalom.