₦airaland Forum

Abdulgaffar22:
Another serious problem with Christianity is this;
Redemption through Jesus death on the cross

Look at some problems with Islam & the Quran:
1. A religion of peace ......... Strive hard against unbelievers & do not be friends of Jews and Christians and pagans

2. We worship only one god ...... We believe in both Allah and Mohamed

3. Allah is the way to Paradise ....... You must believe both Allah and Mohamed to enter Paradise

4. You must not associate anything with Allah ....... We must pray also to Mohamed everyday, kiss a black stone in Mecca, run between two hills and go around Kabba

5. We give you instructions ........ We abrogate the instructions

“Those who can make you believe
absurdities can make you commit atrocities”. - Voltaire

Abdulgaffar22:
Another serious problem with .......

Islam:
You Moslems today believe a person must say the 'Shahada' to be moslem. Did any of these old patriarchs you claim are Moslems say it? Did they know Mohamed? How then was Islam actualized in their lives?

If you accept that they gained eternal life without Mohamed and the quran then it means Islam is not necessarily the route to gain life. If so, why are you hung up on it?

enilove:
YOU CLAIMED THE BIBLE WAS CORUPTED AND YET YOU ARE REFERENCING THE BIBLE TO PROVE YOUR POINTS.

WHEN , WHERE AND HOW WAS THE TRUTH OF JESUS TAMPERED WITH?

MUHAMMAD AND THE WHOLE LAND OF ARABIA HAD COPIES OF THE BIBLE , WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN ABLE TO PICK ONE OF THOSE ANCIENT BIBLES AND COMPARED IT WITJ WHAT WE HAVE NOW ?

IF THE COPIES WHERE MUHAMMAD READ FROM WERE CORRUPTED ,WHY DID MUHAMMAD USE IT AND NOT DISCARD IT OR ASK THEM TO BURN THE ARABIAN COPIES AS THEY DID TO QURAN?

The Bible is the words of God but the Quran is words of Satan.
From the beginning the Quran is a falsehood :
Allah SWT says:

وَإِذَا بَدَّلْنَآ ءَايَةً مَّكَانَ ءَايَةٍ ۙ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُنَزِّلُ قَالُوٓا إِنَّمَآ أَنْتَ مُفْتَرٍ ۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
"And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know."
(QS. An-Nahl: Verse 101)

AT LEAST YOU CAN READ FROM YOUR QURAN THAT ALLAH DID NOT KNOW THE TRUTH AND HAD TO SUBSTITUTE OR CHANGE HIS STATEMENTS TO THE EXTENT THAT THE PEOPLE CALLED MUHAMMAD AN INVENTOR OF LIES.

WHY DON'T YOU GO AND DEAL WITH THE CORRUPTION IN THE QURAN BEFORE TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND . THAT IS KNOWN AS HYPOCRISY.

Abdulgaffar knows he's being mischievous.

Claiming on one hand that the Bible is corrupted and using portions of the same to want to justify his position or argument is outrightly dishonest.

Like it's said: "You cannot eat your cake and have it" Therefore no seriously minded person will take him serious. Maybe he is hoping to win over some dummies.

Islam thrives in DECEPTION. Abdulgaffar is shappening his deception skills here.

Abdulgaffar22:
1. Condemnation of an innocent and righteous soul for the sins he has never committed is illogical and act of injustice

Telling the believers that they will no longer be held responsible for all their sins since one innocent man had already been held responsible on their behalf seems to imply that they are now free to ........... believe in this atonement sacrifice.

....the punishment for those sins had already been accomplished by Jesus on the cross in the time past.

If you owe me a thousand naira and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive .....

1. The quran NEVER denied that there was a crucifixion.
2. In the narrative of the quran Allah SUBSTITUTED another person in place of Jesus.
3. So, the quran shows that there can be a SUBSTITUTIONARY death - one person can die in the place of another person.
4. Moslems therefore have NO REASON to argue that one person cannot be a SUBSTITUTE for another since the quran clearly claims that such a thing happened.
5. If another person PAYS a debtor's debt, can it be ILLOGICAL to say that the debt has been paid? Obviously not! Except to a person with a warped reasoning. If a debt has been paid then it has been paid! No law court will rule otherwise unless Islam's judicial system operates on an upside down logic.
6. So, Abdulgaffar22, is Islam's claim of SUBSTITUTIONARY death on the cross logical or illogical and an act of injustice?

Abdulgaffar22:
I chose and accept Islam not because I have presently understood it as 100 % perfect system without any question . But because I see it as the most rational world view out of many world views that exist today.

So, in one sentence, and sticking to your TITLE, what must every Christian know ABOUT ISLAM?

Yomidee:
another piece i like to share
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GopAYZC-FM

Some of the comments by Mohamed and other Islamic teachers and leaders about blacks are so terrible that one wonders why so many are following Islam hook, line and sinker without thinking.

Islam has succeeded, throughout its history, in suppressing the TRUTH about its real nature by being able to, like they say, "speak from both sides of the mouth". That is why the truth about Islamic slavery had been largely covered up.

Islam has never really regarded the black man as equal to the Arabs. It can even be said that he is regarded as less than second class human being.

Action, they say, speak louder than words. Islam has a way with words; even quotes from earliest Islamic sources can be denied and trumpeted as "Not authentic" whilst the same source can be used to substantiate a stand as long as it suits their claim.

Islam can deny a source or deny that perpetrators of some evil, even when they claim to be pursuing the course of Islam or be acting in the name of Allah.

The effects of Mohamed’s racism, supremacy, and slavery on blacks continues today, as it is reported that up to 14 million blacks are currently owned by Muslims.

Black people are treated with scorn in the Islamic middle-east today with racism a common attitude with mistreatment. Saudi Arabia’s racism includes black people in slums and subjected to abuse as the Arab psyche would never accept black people as equal to themselves.

This mistreatment and slavery of black Africans has continued albeit underground because Muslims justify their actions with the life of their prophet Mohamed.


Mohamed owned many black slaves during his lifetime. He believed that black slaves were half the worth of Arab slaves, proving this by trading two of his own blacks for one Arab Muslim.

OLAADEGBU:
Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo on the subject of Tithes and Offerings.

1. NONE of these men have been able to show us where the APOSTLES who were the PIONEERS of the Church ever PRESCRIBED tithing for the Christian even where there were numerous references to and PRESCRIPTION for giving by the Apostles.

2. The book of Hebrews NOWHERE asked the Christian to tithe. What the book shows is the SUPERIORITY of Jesus' person and priesthood over every other. Tying this to the necessity for the Christian to tithe is at best very mischievous and can even be termed outright demonic. There is NO INSTRUCTION or COMMAND to the Christian to tithe in the book of Hebrews: NONE!

3. If Acts 15 does not make a statement to these 'men of God' then they are the ones who "make (people) twice as much a child of hell as (they) are."

Abdulgaffar22:
This is the story made up by Paul to justify the supposed crucifixion of Jesus.
.................

Abdugarfar, You are not making sense. Your indoctrination has blinded your mind to the TRUTH.

I've pointed out a number of places where you were clearly wrong. Instead of being honest enough to admit, seek clarification and rethink you bring up another issue hoping perhaps that you'll succeed with the new issue. That is ridiculous and childish.

It is obvious that every man born into this world is sinful.

That sin condition makes it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to qualify for heaven.

The ONLY ONE born without this sin nature is JESUS.

He chose to pay the penalty for sin. Having done that all it takes for anyone to get out of that sin condition and qualify for heaven is simple: "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved".

Other than this, a MILLION good deeds by a spiritually dead person with the sin condition CANNOT amount to anything with God. 5 pillars or even a hundred pillars won't do it.

You have the opportunity to make a right decision today to believe on Jesus Christ as saviour. Do not miss it.

Abdulgaffar22:
If you read carefully; " “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of
God
will be taken away from you and given
to a
nation who will produce its fruit. Anyone
who
falls on this stone will be broken to
pieces;" You will understand that the stone refers to " a nation" mention in the previous verse. It is not refering to an individual like Jesus or Muhammad. That is why it must be Arab nation li:e the Ishmaelites. All the previous prophets of God are from Israelites in fulfilment of promise made to Abraham as regard to Isaac. So Ishmaelites has been neglected for many years.Therefore in order the fulfil the promise made to Abraham as regard to Ishmael in Genesis 17:20 God now decided to make the last prophet from the children of Ishmael the Arabs. So they are the rejected stone which now become the corner stone. All the enemies that faced them were broken to pieces in the battle fields.

You are employing the same falsehood and deceit Islam has use throughout its history.

If the same Bible you're quoting tells you what EXACTLY it means by what it says what gives you the right to disregard that and then put in your own words to attempt to force your meaning into it? That shows that you are deceitful and can't be trusted.

If all of Islam's enemies were broken in pieces how come it's not ruling the whole of Europe today? Again, you're displaying either a lack of knowledge of HISTORY of how Islam was driven back from Europe or you're clearly also being deceptive here.

If Islam is DECEIT like you are showing it here for all to see why should any right minded person want to choose it?

Abdulgaffar22:
The prophecy in Matthew 21:44 says " Anyone who
falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed". If Jesus is the stone and he was crucified and then become accursed by God ( Galatians 3:13)according to what you believe, then in what way did he fulfil this prophecy? Have you now seen that Christianity as a whole cannot be put together.

First, do you agree that according to the Bible the "stone" referred to here is Jesus?

Abdulgaffar22:
The verse Deuteronomy 17:15 you qouted above is irrelevant to what we are discussing. God warned the Israelite not to appoint for themselves a foreigner as a king. What we are discussing is about a prophet which God will send to them. Besides, have you not read it in the Bible that kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews and be given to another nation. Therefore, even if we assume you are correct, then the era in which the Jews cannot have a foreigner as a king or a prophet over them has gone. Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in
the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[ h]?
“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God
will be taken away from you and given to a
nation who will produce its fruit. Anyone who
falls on this stone will be broken to pieces;
anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.(Matthew 21:42-44) . The stone that builders rejected is the ishmaelites and now they are the cornerstone. This is the reason why Islamic nation survives till today despite the many battles it fought with its enemy

Abdugarfar, If you must quote and use the Bible then integrity demands that you should do so rightly and sincerely.

You have TWISTED things here. You're trying to "force" Bible verses into your Islamic world view. The creator of Islam and his followers tried this for hundreds of years but have yet to succeed.

Moslems keep forgetting to obey the simple instructions in the quran to always go to Christians for clarification on things. I wonder why.

1. Deuteronomy 17:15 IS RELEVANT because it would not make sense for JEHOVAH to tell them clearly that they must not have a foreigner over them as king and then have them bring in a foreigner as prophet. Both of them - king & prophet - are to work hand in hand to fulfil God's covenant for Israel.

2. The Bible expressly tells us the meaning of "the stone the builders rejected".

The stone that builders rejected IS NOT ishmaelites. That is your own concoction.

The Bible gives the meaning here:
"Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” Acts 4: 11-12.

So, again, you're WRONG!

Abdulgaffar22:
You claim that Jesus is “like unto
thee” (like Moses), I wonder why you forget that
Moses was not son of God, neither he was
human and god at the same time like Jesus is
claimed by Christians to be. Moses got married
and died a natural death. He fought the Holy war.
Contrary to that Jesus never fought the Holy war,
never led an army . Jesus never got
married, didn’t have children and didn’t die
natural death and never got buried like Moses.
Jesus according to Christians died on the cross
and rose again after three days, while Moses
didn’t die on the cross neither rose again. So in what way that Jesus is like Moses

Abdugarfar, Let me make it simple for you. Let's again look at this:
JEHOVAH gave to Israel this commnad:
"Be sure to appoint over you a king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites.Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite." Deuteronomy 17:15

Will the same God who clearly separated Israel from other nations and told them here not to appoint a person who is NOT an Israelite over them now promise them an Arab prophet?

Abdulgaffar22:
The prophecy in Deut 18 does not say from israelites. It says "from among their brethren" I:e the brethren of Israelites. Of course the brethren of Israelites is Arabs; see Galatians 4:22-25. Prophet Muhammad is like Moses in many ways: Both are born in natural way unlike Jesus who has no human father. Both were given a code of ceremonial law. Both fight battles with their enemy and won. Both married with children unlike Jesus which remain bachelor throughout his life

1. To follow your line of argument:
David was born in natural way.
David fought his enemies and won.
David married and had children.

So, what is UNIQUE to a prophet that Moses had and Mohamed also had?

Are we to ASSUME (based on your 'logic') that ANYWHERE we see the word "brethren" in the Bible we should take it as referring to Arabs and disregard its immediate context?

2. Jehovah, when talking to the Israelites CLEARLY distinguished between them and EVERY OTHER peoples. So, it will be out of place here for the same God to tell them that he raise a prophet for them from a DIFFERENT PEOPLE - non-Israelites.

3. Look at this CLEAR WARNING which JEHOVAH gave to Israel some verses before the one you quoted:
"Be sure to appoint over you a king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your fellow Israelites. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not an Israelite." Deuteronomy 17:15

Can it be clearer than this?

Will the same God who clearly separated Israel from other nations and told them here not to appoint a person who is NOT an Israelite over then now promise them an Arab prophet?

4. The New Testament and Jesus himself claimed he was the prophet Moses talked about - John 7:40; Luke 13:33; Acts 3: 20, 23-24.
You claim it is Mohamed.
Who do you think is wrong?

5. Mohamed spoke in the name of other God's - Q 53:19-20.
This is something Deuteronomy 18 talked against.

Mohamed fabricated things against God - Al-Tabari 6:111.
Again this is frowned at in Deuteronomy.

And you still want to claim that he fits into the prophet of this passage?

Abdulgaffar22:
I will raise up for them a prophet like you
from among their brethren.
............
(Deuteronomy 18:18-22).

Two other questions for you:
1. In what way was Mohamed a prophet like Moses?
2. Was Mohamed an Israelite from among whom this portion CLEARLY STATES that the prophet will be from?

Abdulgaffar22:
............
Therefore, it is a statement of truth that
............
......all those verses of Qur'an quoted
....... are the words of a liar that impersonate God of Israel.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you
from among their brethren. ..........
(Deuteronomy 18:18-22).

You like throwing bits and pieces here and there and then run away. I hope you'll not do that here also.

First, a question for you: "Is Islam's Allah JEHOVAH? "

Abdulgaffar22:
According to the gospel of Barnabas, there were disciples who knew about the deception involved in Jesus
..................

Abdulgaffar, the Gospel of Barnabas is purported to have been written some 1,500 years after the time of Jesus.

The four Gospels in the Bible were written by EYEWITNESSES within a relatively short period after Jesus's death and resurrection.

If you would prefer to DISREGARD 1st century eyewitnesses accounts of an event and PREFER an account written in 16th century to try and disprove an established historical event from the 1st century then that really shows that you may not be seeking the truth but seeking what will give you "peace" of mind for the path you have chosen.

If you will prefer the account of ONE "WITNESS" to that of FOUR EYEWITNESSES that are all in agreement then that shows how twisted your reasoning is.

The errors of the Barnabas document in terms of geography and history makes it clear to a rational mind that such work is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

The fact that "Barnabas" was not one of the original 12 disciples of Jesus as the book claims should be another red flag for any objective reader to note.

Jesus's death and resurrection showed his victory over death and the devil and that he SUCCEEDED in paying for mankind's sin. When you as a Moslem deny this you're refusing the ONLY SOLUTION to your eternal salvation.

Abdulgaffar22:
..........
Premise 1: As part of our concept about God; God
is naturally known to ALWAYS SPEAK THE TRUTH
just like God is naturally known to ALWAYS
BLESS HIS BELOVED PROPHETS
Premise 2: Therefore, for any reason whatsoever,
it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO SPEAK A LIE just
like it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR GOD TO CURSE HIS INNOCENT AND
...........
Jesus escaped death on the
cross (Qur’an 4:157-158).
...........
Therefore, an illogical and contradictory concept of "a merciful God who could not see any other way of forgiving those who sincerely believe in Him except to curse His innocent and beloved prophet on the cross at
Calvary" is completely far away from the truth.
The fact that the Holy Qur’an is the only religious
book on earth that remove this negative and bad
impression about God from the minds of the
general humanity is a very great indicator that the
book could never have come from no other person
except God Himself.

1.A huge problem with 4:157 is that Allah is deceiving not only his enemies but also the followers of the Messiah, whom He had sent Himself.

Since the Quran presents deception of the honest seekers of truth as part of the character of Allah, then how can we trust such a god or book - the Quran - that is purportedly from him. If God deceived those who desired to know and follow him, how can I have any assurance he did not do it again and the Quran is not part of this deception?

I think this is a big problem with this passage. But maybe not for you.
So, can you resolve this problem of the deception of true seekers of the truth by Allah? Why Allah deceived everybody and it took 600 years for the truth to be "revealed" to Mohamed?

Which would have been more glorious and spectacular: Allah lifting up Jesus to heaven in the sight of all the people instead of letting everyone think that Jesus was indeed crucified and nobody saw and realized he was actually not crucified?

Why could Allah not save Jesus without making up this change of persons in the cross which achieved nothing?

And Allah is said to be the All-Powerful, All-Wise?

Why and how did a fake crucifixion bring any glory to Allah? Especially since, according to Islam, nobody knew about it until 600 years later?

Abdulgaffar22:
Jesus escaped death on the
cross (Qur’an 4:157-158).

The quran must be WRONG then in saying that ALL the prophets died.

Abdulgaffar22:
God Almighty declare: I, even, I am the Lord and beside me there is NO saviour(Isaiah 43:11) . Are you saying Jesus is God Almighty by asking me to accept him as my savior and not a prophet alone? If you say yes, then answer the following questions
...............
Can God be ignorant of anything?

Have you understood the clarifications on your previous misunderstandings or are only just interested in asking questions and not learning?

Remember that the quran asked you guys to refer to us Christians for clarification. So, seek to learn.

Abdulgaffar22:
Several years after Jesus’ departure from the earth, a man known as Paul (also called Saul of Tarsus) .....
................
................
Yet the same Paul wrote almost half of the books found in the New Testament. See the foundation upon which the edifice of Christianity is erected!

Moslems do not have a sufficient understanding of what biblical texts say.

As a result they get themselves confused.

1. In Matthew 24:4-5 Jesus is saying that people - human beings - will claim to be Christs. It was in relation to a specific future event and in answer to questions he was asked. Paul's encounter in Acts 9 was not with a human being. It is not situated in the event Jesus was referring to. So, you missed the point here.

2. When Paul said: “Christ is the end of the Law (Romans 10:4) he is confirming what Jesus said in Mathew - Christ fulfilled the Law. The purpose of the Law is fulfilled in him. Again, there's no contradiction here. You missed the point again.

3. On circumcision: It was God who in Acts 15 led the ENTIRE CHURCH to see circumcision as no longer mandatory for believers. It was not what Paul on his own decided. You're again off the mark here.

4. In Romans 3:7 Paul is using the term any one putting forward an argument would do. You did not quote the ENTIRE VERSE not to talk of the complete argument. That in itself is FALSEHOOD on your part. The complete rendition is: "Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" You are the one actually lying here.

Your attempt to discredit Paul falls woefully on its face. Because Moslems like you think that if you can puncture a hole in his credibility then you can destroy Christianity you go to any length to attempt to do that. Unfortunately because you start from a wrong premise your efforts never yield any good thing.

Paul and Jesus agree on everything the starting point of which is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus (as your Saviour, not just as a prophet) and you will be saved"

A LOOK AT A PREVIOUS POST

1.Understanding Scripture involves looking into it ‘line upon line’, ‘precept upon precept’ (Isaiah 28:10).

2.Therefore, in many instances, picking a single verse or a portion of a verse to build doctrine on can lead to a faulty theology.

3.The issue of tithing today basically is whether the NT believer is still under a previous requirement that was put in place by God before the Law or even that under the Mosaic Law.

4.When God brought in the Mosaic Law, that Law became what was operational. It became the manual which God now expected ANYONE who believes in him to follow.

5.If anyone DECIDED that he was going to follow the system (i.e. God’s system) for a previous time before the Law was put in place, the mere fact that it was God’s system would not make it right for him to do so.
For example: Before the priesthood of the Levites, God had other kinds of priesthood in place. But when God put in place the Levitical priesthood, no one, NOT EVEN KINGS, had the right to decide to do what they wanted. Why? The LAW had changed!
Where kings chose to go against God’s new order they were disciplined! Scripture is there for all to see this.

6.When anything in the ‘old’ is still included in the ‘new’ then it is still VALID for those under the new.

7.When anything in the ‘old is set aside in the ‘new’ then it is INVALID under the new.

8.When the church was put in place, it became God’s new system for anyone who believes in him. IT REPLACED THE MOSAIC LAW!

9.When the early Christians faced the DILEMMA concerning whether Christians were still to follow the Mosaic Law (which had itself REPLACED everything before it) the HOLY SPIRIT ruled that they were not. (Acts 15).

10.In fact, one of the things mentioned by Apostle Peter was “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?” (Acts 15:10).

11.The Christian was not to be under any “YOKE”. No more ’forced’ system.

12.The Christian is a ‘new creation’. The Christian is ‘IN CHRIST’. The Christian belong to a ‘better covenant’ based on ‘better promises’. No putting of ‘New Wine’ into old ‘wineskin’.

13.Church-age doctrines or teachings were NOT KNOWN to those of the past. They belong to the ‘many more’ things that Jesus said he would, through the Holy Spirit, teach the Apostles.

14.Therefore, whatever the Apostles now gave as ‘Law’ became what was now binding on the Christian. Whatever they say became binding. Whatever they say the Christian was freed from or loosed from became so.

15.When the Christian was ‘loosed’ from the Mosaic Law as per Acts 15, the Christian was freed from any obligation to go by the Law.

16.Any ‘new’ Law, which may include things from the ‘old’ is now what becomes binding on the Christian. The sovereignty of God determines
what in the ‘old’ is still needed under the ‘new’.

17.From all these, what we can take away is that it is ONLY what the Apostles, by the Holy Spirit, gave as the GIVING SYSTEM for the church that stands. Any other thing is a DEVIATION from the norm.

18.Christians gave money in Acts 4: 32-37. No tithing was mentioned. Rather it was by free choice.
Peter reinforced the fact that the believer’s possession and money was his to do with as he pleased in Acts 5:4.
When a need AROSE IN Acts 6 there was no mention of tithe.
When the issue of a prediction of famine came up in Acts 11 there was no mention of tithe.
When in Acts 20: 27 Paul said he declared the whole will or counsel of God to the Ephesians elders it did NOT include tithing even though he mentioned how he financed his ministry and talked about giving and receiving.
In Romans 15 when the issue of giving was mentioned as it affected Jew-Gentile believers no tithing was mentioned.
In 1 Corinthians 16, when Paul talked about “the collection for God’s people” NOTHING about tithing was in his instructions about how the money was TO BE RAISED.
No tithing was mentioned by Paul when it came to the issue of GIVING in 2 Corinthians 9. The emphasis as had been from Peter’s encounter with Ananias and Sapphira was “not reluctantly or under compulsion”.
In Galatians 6:9 where Paul talked about doing good and reaping a harvest, NOTHING about tithing is mentioned.
In Philippians Paul talks about “the matter of giving and receiving” and NO tithe was mentioned.

19.On and on in Paul’s admonitions about money, wealth, giving and receiving NOT ONCE was tithe mentioned.
Those who had were encouraged to be “generous and willing to share” (1 Timothy 6:18). He says that in that way they will “lay up treasures for themselves …. (in) the coming age” (1 Timothy 6:19).
How come Paul did not quickly put in TITHES here as a means to eternal treasures?

20.The writer of Hebrews admonished sharing with others but did not include TITHES. (Hebrews 13:16).

21.James talks about the rich and the poor. He talks about matching FAITH with WORKS. No tithe was mentioned.

22.Did ALL these Apostles miss out something? Did they fail us in omitting something so ‘life changing’, ‘eternal principle’, ‘principle of faith’, ‘open heaven’, etc, etc.?

23.The plain truth is ‘NO, they did not’. They gave us the whole counsel of God regarding the spiritual life for the believer of the Church-age.

24.God established the NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST. He sovereignly determined the things from the ‘old’ (both pre-law or under the Law) to include. What he didn’t put in the ‘new’ were EXCLUDED or became SECONDARY. What God deemed fit to include in the ‘New’, the Apostles CLEARLY communicated to us. We need not be ‘gnostics’ or ‘esoteric’ to understand or figure out these things.

25.The conclusion is simple:
TITHING IS NO WHERE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT!

Primesky:
You and I cannot pinpoint an exact verse setting aside tithing or encouraging tithing in the new Testament. Now we're confused. Isn't it wise to ask our Father for clarification?. What are you really saying, that we cannot ask God to help us in this?. No!, I strongly disagree!

You may be confused but I'm not.
I know I belong to the Church Age.
I know where to go when looking for DOCTRINES relating to how to live my spiritual life in the Church Age.
I can see how Pioneers of the Church Age lived their Christian lives. So, I don't have to re-invent the wheel.
I can USE "line upon line, precept upon precept" in the New Testament to pinpoint exactly the setting aside of tithing for the New Testament believer. So, I'm not confused.

God has provided clarification for me. Help has been given by God through the teachings of the Apostles. To disregard all these and still want to ask God for help will be tantamount to ARROGANCE.

It is when the distinction between the Church and other dispensation is BLURRED that the Christian is made to get into all kinds of gimmicks totally unrelated to his spiritual life.

The Church is DIFFERENT from anything that existed before it.
The Church is NOT OBLIGATED to TITHE.

Primesky:
The blue print for Christians is the bible. That we are under grace does not mean we should abolish Old Testament completely. Christians will still be judged by some of the things there.

That God has given us all things does not stop anybody from asking Him questions. Otherwise, Jesus wouldn't have said, Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.

How do you see and relate with God?. Do you think He's a distant creator only interested in punishing people when they wrong Him?. As a Father that He is, wouldn't He be interested to tell you something you don't understand, even if He has told you before?.

See, asking God to reveal a matter to you for proper understanding is not a sin.

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

So why don't you do the calling and let Him show you the things He has provided, written and commanded, which you know not.

1. Remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16? The rich man asked Abraham to give his brethren a “fresh revelation” as it were, by sending Lazarus to meet with them. What was Abraham’s response?

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them.’ On the rich man’s insistence Abraham went further to say: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead”

Where you have clarity in the Scripture but still want to go to God for him to “speak” to you then you may be seeking something else.
If the Bible says “Salvation is found in no one else” (Acts 4:12) but Jesus Christ and as a Christian you see this in scripture but you still choose to go to God and ask “O God can those who believe in bla,bla,bla, not be saved. Please show me?” would that not be ridiculous to say the least?

2. Do we have records of the church life for decades in the Bible? Yes! In all the records about the church covering several years is there ANYTHING that remotely points to the Christian being tied to a FIXED PERCENTAGE for giving? No! So, where did today’s Christian who majors on tithing get it from?

3. The Apostles where responsible for guiding the church into what was “mystery”, unknown to previous generations of believers. When instead of seeking understanding of this new life in Christ which was not prescribed before the Church Age, the believer now seeks to go BACK to the old, the book of Hebrews stands to CONDEMN him.

Yes, the whole Bible is for the Christian BUT not all that is in the Bible is for the Christian to follow as a blueprint for his spiritual life. For example, a significant part of Israel’s worship was TIED TO the Temple but the Church today is not tied to any physical structure. Where do we get this understanding from? From pre-law or in the Law? No! we get it from the New Testament epistles!
When the Christian does not understand that the Church is DIFFERENT from every other system God instituted in the past then he still has a long way to go in his spiritual life.

4. No SINGLE directive in the New Testament, NONE of the Apostles and not even Christ prescribed tithing for the Christian.

Primesky:
Let's ask God to reveal the matter to us personally and not to make general blanket assumption. It could be deadly!.

1. Where do we find the blueprints for the Church - the Law of Moses, pre-law instructions or the life and epistles to the church in the New Testament?

2. God has CLEARLY revealed ALL we need to live our spiritual life under the New Covenant - 2 Peter 2:3. To want a personal revelation is to be arrogant to God.

Primesky:
please, show me where. Thank you.

salvation101:
point to where it was categorically set aside

Acts 15: 28 – “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us NOT TO BURDEN YOU WITH ANYTHING BEYOND THE FOLLOWING requirements: ….”

This CATEGORICAL declaration came from the decision of the Church Council in Jerusalem. This was in response to some Jewish believers whom were insisting that the non-Jewish believers must follow the Law of Moses.

In Acts 15: 5 the insistence was – “Then some believers who belong to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and REQUIRED TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES”

Note that the acceptable means of relating with God at this time was “The Law of Moses”. None of them had the right to decide to go back to anything before the Law. The decision was CLEAR – Christians are not bound by the Law! This is what the Holy Spirit affirmed here. NOTHING else in Scripture and NOWHERE else in Scripture has reversed this.

THEREFORE, tithing, a part of the Law of Moses no longer stands as a compulsory observance for the believer.

Acts 13:38-39 emphasises the fact that the Law could not justify. Only in Christ Jesus is anyone declared right before God. So, the believer’s acceptance by God IS NOT on the basis of what he does – including tithing – but on being “IN CHRIST”. Romans 5:1 says the same – our ‘peace’ with God is not as a result of what we DO. It is as a result of our being in Jesus who alone is ACCEPTABLE to God.

The early disciples and Apostles understood this. That is why you will NEVER FIND a portion of the New Testament epistles that commands tithing. It was no longer required. It was done away with.

There is no longer any COMPULSORY GIVING required of the believer in the new Testament. What we have is this:
“Each of you should give what you have DECIDED in your heart to give, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God loves a cheerful giver.”

Anything other than this is an attack on the grace of God who provided Jesus Christ to be our ONLY source of reaching him and being acceptable to him as opposed to depending on what man can do as a means of our being acceptable to him.

Primesky:
Since both proponents and opponents base their argument on the scriptures, and since it was not categorically set aside in the new testament, will I be on the losing side if I do it not as law?. If I cross over into eternity, will God query me for not giving it, assuming He still demands it?.

TITHING was categorically set aside in the New Testament.
If you give with a wrong motive God will not accept such an offering.

OLAADEGBU:
Does that mean Noah couldn't have jumped out if he wanted to? And yes, I do have the assurance of the 'final salvation' as long as I do not jump out of the ship (Ark) before it reaches it's final destination.

Noah was KEPT by the power of God until it was safe for him to get out of the ark. 1 Peter 1:5 applies to us the same way.

The words "as long as" negate your "yes, I do". Since there is a condition attached to your "final salvation" there can be no true assurance: Don't you think? It's just an ASSUMPTION you live by not a definite ASSURANCE.

What Jesus Christ promised is "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." The "no one can snatch them" means NO ONE. It is all inclusive. There's no exception.

Anything other than this is not the GOOD NEWS that Jesus brought. The good news is that every believer is "sealed for the day of redemption"(Ephesians 4:30).

The righteousness or right standing that qualifies us to be with God in eternity is not attained by man's efforts whatever the nature of those efforts are. That right standing is IMPUTED by God ALONE. Man is TOTALLY excluded. That is what the Apostles lived and died for. Anything else is not the Christianity they preached.

OLAADEGBU:
Noah's Ark is a picture of Christ our initial salvation. Those who entered the Ark were saved from the coming flood. If by any chance some of those saved in the Ark chose to jump out into the waters will you say that they are still saved because the entered the Ark in the first place? If you jump our you are on your own. The condition is that: "If you continue in My Word."

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in My word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:31-32).

That is to say that on-going obedient belief in His Word leads to true freedom in Christ. The moment you stop believing, you are on your own.

1. It was God who shut Noah and his family in when they entered the ark. Does that tell us anything?
2. Do you personally have assurance of that "final salvation" ?

OLAADEGBU:
Read the verses quoted below and draw your own conclusion:

You, as a 'veteran', should know that individual verses NEED TO BE understood in context.
- what does it mean to "live after the flesh" and "die" in Romans 8:13?
- what does the "house we are" mean in Hebrews 3:6?
- what does "made partakers of Christ" mean in Hebrews 3:12-14?

If there is "the final salvation" like you put it then it means no one, not even you, can, in all honesty, claim to be saved now or to have salvation now since if at a future time you cease to consciously be steadfast you may lose out from being saved.

It means you do not have the assurance of that "final salvation" since it depends on your works and conscious effort to "hold fast" till the end.

What you are doing now is working for your salvation. To you Christ's SUBSTITUTIONARY work is insufficient and needs to be filled up by your works.

A Christian who does not boast in the death of Christ ALONE is telling God to accept him on the basis of his best works. Such a Christian does not even begin to understand the ABSOLUTE righteous standard of God's holiness. NO ONE can attain it. ONLY Jesus Christ met the criteria.

OLAADEGBU:
Good point

"IF" a Christian can lose his salvation then maybe what he had was a 'potential' for salvation. The Bible God of JUSTICE ( please note that word) cannot execute something in his justice and then turn round to CANCEL it. Maybe some other god or man may but not the God of righteousness.

Maybe what those of you who believe in loss of salvation should actually be looking at is: "Can a Potentially Saved Christian End Up not Being Eventually Saved?" Because if one can end up not being saved then we cannot say he was saved in the first place. He only had the potential to be ultimately saved.

Jehovah cannot give a guarantee and go back on his word - NEVER! He cannot give an unconditional GIFT and then turn round to SNATCH it back because of some unmet 'conditions'. A gift is NOT a reward. Failure to understand this, in addition to equating misunderstood words and phrases in Scripture to mean "SALVATION" has been the bane of those of you who think man must fulfil some conditions before he can be sure he'll be "saved"