₦airaland Forum

OkCornel:
Bro, I am giving at my discretion and not because of any "offering" obligations under the Law.
Sacrificial giving as directed by the Holy Spirit and the requirements of the New Covenant (Jesus Christ) is my benchmark.
Kindly answer my questions now that I have answered yours...
And you have not answered how Pastors with landed properties, luxurious cars and jets are now the Levites without inheritance that should stand on the pulpit to ask for tithes...
Thank you.

I doubt if Petra1 will give you direct answers to your questions.

He wants to continue to believe that tithing is REQUIRED under the present dispensation of grace. He is still not quite decided though, whether to stand on the tithing of the Law or stick to his "eternal principle" angle.

It will be interesting to see him answer CLEARLY.

petra1:
Matthew 23:23 (NLT)
23 ! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things.

Luke 18:12 (MSG)
I fast twice a week and tithe on all my income.'

Petra1,
1. Are you saying from the portion you highlighted that it is MONEY from sales of herbs that Jesus is talking about?
2. Was Jesus talking to the Church here or to Israelites?
3. Can you show us CLEARLY where the Church in the New Testament paid tithe or was instructed to pay tithe?

Please avoid you short bursts and give clear response. After all, you do not want to let others get an unclear picture and end up being deceived, do you?

Is Islam Responsible for Libyan Black Slave Trade?

The media has been awash with disturbing pictures and stories of black Africans in slave markets in Libya.

These stories are now surfacing because of information technology but it has gone on for centuries in Islam.

Islam has never really regarded the black man as equal to the Arabs. It can even be said that he is regarded as less than second class human being.

Action, they say, speak louder than words. Islam has a way with words; even quotes from earliest Islamic sources can be denied and trumpeted as "Not authentic" whilst the same source can be used to substantiate a stand as long as it suits their claim.

Islam has therefore succeeded, throughout history, in suppressing the TRUTH about its real nature by being able to, like they say, "speak from both sides of the mouth".

Islam can deny a source or deny that perpetrators of some evil, even when they claim to be pursuing the course of Islam or be acting in the name of Allah.

The effects of Mohamed’s racism, supremacy, and slavery on blacks continues today, as it is reported that up to 14 million blacks are currently owned by Muslims.

Black people are treated with scorn in the Islamic middle-east today with racism a common attitude with mistreatment. Saudi Arabia’s racism includes black people in slums and subjected to abuse as the Arab psyche would never accept black people as equal to themselves.

This mistreatment and slavery of black Africans has continued albeit underground because Muslims justify their actions with the life of their prophet Mohamed.

Mohamed owned many black slaves during his lifetime. He believed that black slaves were half the worth of Arab slaves, proving this by trading two of his own blacks for one Arab Muslim.

Muslim sources shed light on Islam and
What we are witnessing today:

Sahih Muslim 10: 3901
Jabir reported: There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)

Bukhari 7263
I went to (the house of the Prophet) and behold, Allah’s Messenger was staying in a Mashruba (attic room) and a black slave of Allah’s Messenger was at the top of its stairs.

Mohamed was said to insultingly announced that if anyone wants to see the face of Satan, just look at Nabtal, his black slave, who has long-flowing hair, flaming eyes, and dark, ruddy cheeks.

Al-Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 11, p. 11
Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth.

Bukhari 6161:
Allah’s messenger was on a journey and he had a black slave called Anjasha, and he was driving the camels (very fast, and there were women riding on those camels).

So, since Muslims regard Mohamed as a PATTERN to be copied they will continue to emulate him and see NOTHING WRONG in enslaving black Africans. After all, their “perfect man” owned blacks of his own and continues to own them today through blind submission.

Salvation is God's work from the beginning to the end!

It is not started by God and "perfected" by man - the Christian. If it were then, what God did had a shortcoming that now required man to complete.

God saved us, not because of righteous things we had done (will still do) but because of His mercy - Titus 3:5

Majority of Christians today would rather go by a "fresh revelation" of his 'Mog' than accept a clearly stated scripture on any issue.

Today's Christian has been so fed with chaff that he has come to love it more than the milk and meat of the word of God.

Challenge him to be like the Bereans and his response will be something like: "No need. My 'mog' has already done that".

Many of them live with the impression that Christianity just started in this generation. Point them to the history and life of the early church and they are at sea. They can't understand why they should learn from their pioneers or even accept that those ones knew what they were doing.

When the Church unashamedly goes against even the clear teachings of Jesus Christ and will justify it by such words like "But it's in the Bible", then, for those who are discerning, it is clear that we are indeed in dire straits.

Where Jesus says "Love your enemies" they will say "Kill your enemies. Does it make common sense to allow your enemies to live?"

When we tell them we are under a NEW LAW - The Law of the Spirit of Life - they respond with "Did God not also give the laws we choose to follow?", "Leave us to choose what we want to follow".

When ANY GENERATION of believers, Christians inclusive, abandon GOD'S PRESCRIBED PROTOCOL for their spiritual life and resort to "philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men" or even "doctrines of demons", God's discipline comes in. That is an "eternal principle" of God. (See 2 Chronicles 36: 15-17)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYFkEh5bEXw

TITHING IS NOT A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
by Russell Earl Kelly, PHD

[quote author=petra1 post=63048636]SACRED TITHE TO GOD

Leviticus 27:30.
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's: it is holy unto the Lord.

The sacred tithe to God was strictly to be managed by the priests for the sanctueary work and welfare for the levites and priests

Numbers 18:21-25
21 And, behold, I have given the Levites all the tithes in Israel for an inheritance in return for their service which they serve, the [menial] service of the Tent of Meeting.

God told the people to use another 10% for the poor every 3 years and another 10% for a feast .these have nothing to do with the sacred tithe to God .
THE 10% FOR FEAST
Deuteronomy 14:22-23
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

10% FOR THE POOR EVERY 3 YEARS

Deuteronomy 14:28-29
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.[/quote]

Petra1, Which of these types of tithing does today's tithers follow as directly specified? Or in a modified form?

petra1:
The church doesn't have a new bible .

Tithe belongs to God period . They had the scripture . If they had any change they would have mentioned it. At least Paul spoke Against corcumcision .

What is the new law. What bible were they studying in the church . New law? Or Torah

What is there then?

Petra1, when you go back to pre-law or Mosaic Law to justify tithing, since you can't find anything supporting it in the EPISTLES, you are BELITTLING the work and position of Christ under the New Covenant.

When you REDUCE the importance of the EPISTLES by saying that the only Scripture we have is the Torah, then you MUST be holding on to ANOTHER GOSPEL.

But the good news about the New Covenant in Jesus Christ was preached by the Apostles. The New Covenant was NOT preached before the Mosaic Law or under the Law.

Details of the spiritual life under the New Covenant is found LARGELY in the EPISTLES. Mandatory Tithing is not given as part of the Christian's life under the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is not about outward conformity to the Law BUT always about the inner man. Therefore when a physical observance like tithing is given the prominence it has been given by modern churches then something is wrong.

Osezua:
Daddy Freeze Selfish Hidden Agenda On Tithing

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth for the Christian, when it comes to tithing, should be: "where does the Bible say that Christian should pay tithe?"

Unfortunately NONE of the Pastors have been able to provide clear biblical reference for that WITHOUT HAVING to go back to Abraham or the Mosaic Law.

Can you provide clear biblical support for these your claims?:

1. Tithe can be paid as an act of faith, an act of worship, as a basis of prosperity, for protection, as acknowledgement of grace, or acknowledgement of the sovereignty of God.
2. You can come up with a personal rationale for tithing, like Jacob.

The Christian is not to live his spiritual life in a vacuum. It should be based on the objective truth of the Word and nothing else.

Goshen360:
Good job..... MuttleyLaff and plainbibletruth for holding these tithe yahoos to stand still with scripture.....

Thanks.
We'll just continue to pray that believers' understanding will be open to see their privileged position in Christ Jesus. That they'll come to see that their blessings from God is not because of "do's and don't's" they engage in but Christ.

petra1:
Did the Bible say so ? There was already a pattern . And Jesus instructed the church to apply it . This was on earth ever before the law came

Jesus instructed the church to apply what? Where did he instruct the church? Please clarify.

petra1:
If God wanted to say Jesus was greater than Melchizedek, he would have said it . But the height if his priest hood is to be in the ORDER of Melchizedek. Let's leave it as Scripture puts it .

Hey! What is the book of Hebrews all about?
On what basis did Jesus get the high status he attained as per the book of Hebrews?
Did Melchizedek fulfil the same basis?

petra1:
Are you aware Melchizedek is greater than Abraham ? Jesus is seed of Abraham

Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am".
So, what is your point here?

Before we drift off-course, remember the NT has given us a fair KNOWLEDGE of how the early church operated.

NOT ONCE in all these books was TITHING a COMMAND or ADVISE to the Christian.

If now want to HIDE UNDER 'eternal principle' or whatever to justify changing how tithing was prescribed in the Old Covenant to MONETARY TITHING or as muttleyLaff said into "ecclesiastical tithe", it should occur to you, asuustrike2009 and your other guys that something is not quite right. In fact, that something is wrong.

You guys are just the ones coming up with a new TAXATION system for the church.

I've given you book after book in the NT where GIVING and its administration were mentioned and NOT ONCE was tithing brought up.

I ask you again: Did ALL these Apostles miss out something? Did they fail us in omitting something so ‘life changing’, ‘eternal principle’, ‘principle of faith’, ‘open heaven’, etc, etc.?

Petra1, the LAW has changed!

The new LAW was a 'mystery (but) now revealed' i.e. unknown in the past. And i want to add, not directly related to the past.

The Apostles gave us the blueprint for our spiritual life under the new LAW.

Mandatory TITHING IS NOT THERE!

How Come the Apostles Missed Out TITHING?!

1.Understanding Scripture involves looking into it ‘line upon line’, ‘precept upon precept’ (Isaiah 28:10).

2.Therefore, in many instances, picking a single verse or a portion of a verse to build doctrine on can lead to a faulty theology.

3.The issue of tithing today basically is whether the NT believer is still under a previous requirement that was put in place by God before the Law or even that under the Mosaic Law.

4.When God brought in the Mosaic Law, that Law became what was operational. It became the manual which God now expected ANYONE who believes in him to follow.

5.If anyone DECIDED that he was going to follow the system (i.e. God’s system) for a previous time before the Law was put in place, the mere fact that it was God’s system would not make it right for him to do so.
For example: Before the priesthood of the Levites, God had other kinds of priesthood in place. But when God put in place the Levitical priesthood, no one, NOT EVEN KINGS, had the right to decide to do what they wanted. Why? The LAW had changed!
Where kings chose to go against God’s new order they were disciplined! Scripture is there for all to see this.

6.When anything in the ‘old’ is still included in the ‘new’ then it is still VALID for those under the new.

7.When anything in the ‘old is set aside in the ‘new’ then it is INVALID under the new.

8.When the church was put in place, it became God’s new system for anyone who believes in him. IT REPLACED THE MOSAIC LAW!

9.When the early Christians faced the DILEMMA concerning whether Christians were still to follow the Mosaic Law (which had itself REPLACED everything before it) the HOLY SPIRIT ruled that they were not. (Acts 15).

10.In fact, one of the things mentioned by Apostle Peter was “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?” (Acts 15:10).

11.The Christian was not to be under any “YOKE”. No more ’forced’ system.

12.The Christian is a ‘new creation’. The Christian is ‘IN CHRIST’. The Christian belong to a ‘better covenant’ based on ‘better promises’. No putting of ‘New Wine’ into old ‘wineskin’.

13.Church-age doctrines or teachings were NOT KNOWN to those of the past. They belong to the ‘many more’ things that Jesus said he would, through the Holy Spirit, teach the Apostles.

14.Therefore, whatever the Apostles now gave as ‘Law’ became what was now binding on the Christian. Whatever they say became binding. Whatever they say the Christian was freed from or loosed from became so.

15.When the Christian was ‘loosed’ from the Mosaic Law as per Acts 15, the Christian was freed from any obligation to go by the Law.

16.Any ‘new’ Law, which may include things from the ‘old’ is now what becomes binding on the Christian. The sovereignty of God determines
what in the ‘old’ is still needed under the ‘new’.

17.From all these, what we can take away is that it is ONLY what the Apostles, by the Holy Spirit, gave as the GIVING SYSTEM for the church that stands. Any other thing is a DEVIATION from the norm.

18.Christians gave money in Acts 4: 32-37. No tithing was mentioned. Rather it was by free choice.
Peter reinforced the fact that the believer’s possession and money was his to do with as he pleased in Acts 5:4.
When a need AROSE IN Acts 6 there was no mention of tithe.
When the issue of a prediction of famine came up in Acts 11 there was no mention of tithe.
When in Acts 20: 27 Paul said he declared the whole will or counsel of God to the Ephesians elders it did NOT include tithing even though he mentioned how he financed his ministry and talked about giving and receiving.
In Romans 15 when the issue of giving was mentioned as it affected Jew-Gentile believers no tithing was mentioned.
In 1 Corinthians 16, when Paul talked about “the collection for God’s people” NOTHING about tithing was in his instructions about how the money was TO BE RAISED.
No tithing was mentioned by Paul when it came to the issue of GIVING in 2 Corinthians 9. The emphasis as had been from Peter’s encounter with Ananias and Sapphira was “not reluctantly or under compulsion”.
In Galatians 6:9 where Paul talked about doing good and reaping a harvest, NOTHING about tithing is mentioned.
In Philippians Paul talks about “the matter of giving and receiving” and NO tithe was mentioned.

19.On and on in Paul’s admonitions about money, wealth, giving and receiving NOT ONCE was tithe mentioned.
Those who had were encouraged to be “generous and willing to share” (1 Timothy 6:18). He says that in that way they will “lay up treasures for themselves …. (in) the coming age” (1 Timothy 6:19).
How come Paul did not quickly put in TITHES here as a means to eternal treasures?

20.The writer of Hebrews admonished sharing with others but did not include TITHES. (Hebrews 13:16).

21.James talks about the rich and the poor. He talks about matching FAITH with WORKS. No tithe was mentioned.

22.Did ALL these Apostles miss out something? Did they fail us in omitting something so ‘life changing’, ‘eternal principle’, ‘principle of faith’, ‘open heaven’, etc, etc.?

23.The plain truth is ‘NO, they did not’. They gave us the whole counsel of God regarding the spiritual life for the believer of the Church-age.

24.God established the NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST. He sovereignly determined the things from the ‘old’ (both pre-law or under the Law) to include. What he didn’t put in the ‘new’ were EXCLUDED or became SECONDARY. What God deemed fit to include in the ‘New’, the Apostles CLEARLY communicated to us. We need not be ‘gnostics’ or ‘esoteric’ to understand or figure out these things.

25.The conclusion is simple:
TITHING IS NO WHERE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT!

petra1:
...
Jesus instructed Paul that the way the priests receive sustainsnce should be the way ministers should be sustained . How did the priests get welfare . Tithes and offering
...
Why would Paul quote the law for saints

Prove it . Christ dies t have his own order . Christ is priest in the order of Melchizedek. Many bible scholars even believe and teach that Christ was Melchizedek.The encounter with Abraham was seen as one of the christophany of the Old Testament

Did the NT not talk about minister welfare just like the Old Testament parallel etc common man!

You're looking for the word tithe , I'm looking fir the word incest . On what ground can you counsel a brother not to marry his younger sister ?

It's not a New teaching . He was only quoting from the law . These are eternal principles

Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


I agree . But you know many manuscripts are minsding . Just supposing a manuscript is found and such is there What will you say . But you're right let's make do with what is available .

It's part of Collateral Damage . Let's forget I said it

The Levitical priests were sustained by the system put in place for them. Today's ministers are to be sustained by HOW God wants them to be taken care of: And obligatory TITHING is not one of them.

........ one in the manner of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed to the order of Aaron? HEBREWS 7:11 AMP

And this becomes even more evident if another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, HEBREWS 7:15 AMP

"Manner of" , "likeness of" means same kind; like.

Just as Melchizedek was a king-priest Jesus Christ is a king-priest. A category higher than stand-alone priesthood or kingship that still depends on a priest.

When Jesus accomplished his work he became "much superior to angels". Jesus's work qualified him to enter the "most holy place". It was after this that the "necessity of a change in the Law came about. It was after this that "a better covenant" came.

All these make Jesus' ministry different, separate and SUPERIOR to anything including Melchizedek's ministry.

Could every believer under the Mosaic Law offer sacrifice to God directly?
Can any Christian approach the throne of grace directly today?

Again, STUDY the book of Hebrews CAREFULLY.

Await my NT giving inputs.

petra1:
Kindly back it up with scripture . I’m only aware of the major project of raising money for saints in Judea.

Why will they be raising issues about tithe when there was never a scripture that condemns it . Same as incest or offering . It’s a life style . Maybe I was wrong but the only giving project in the epistles that I’m aware of was collection for saints . Of course I know that there would be other giving not stated

How come they didn’t tell him about fornicatuon and adultery ? Prayer and fasting ? Does it mean they are not important . The fact that such weren’t mentioned nullifies them ? We are trying to condemn tithe on the ground of being legalistic we are doing the same by being legalistic in argument Demanding irrelevant comas and semi colons .Somebody will soon say water baptism is legality , inward change is what counts .or Going to church is legality

It shouldn’t be a ground . There are many things that didn’t show up ether . The kingdom of God is still one and As long they are not shadow that is fulfilled in christ the principle applies . There is only one scripture . The Torah . That’s what the early church had.. Why would paul be quoting the law for the church in his epistle . Have you asked ?

There is no scripture to back this claim . We could have said the church can marry siblings . If we keep taking advantage of silent areas. Supposing such were mentioned in some missing manuscript ? Only the shadows of christ were done away .

The giving the Bible teaches us is tithes and offerings which are given in worship of God for the work of Ministry . There is no replacement for them ever mentioned inscriptures

I want to believe that even if you guys BLIND your eyes to the TRUTH, others who are reading will have the eyes of their understanding open.

You just keep quoting Bible verses one after the other without showing how they relate to tithing.

I pointed out to you that, 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 talks about the administration of what is received from givers and NOT about HOW TO GIVE and that you apply scriptures properly.

That's one such passages you just quote as if quoting a scripture portion amounts to it being relevant.

You make claims you haven't been able to prove. Can you show proof of this from scripture:

"There are content done away in christ and there are content that are spiritual principles."

particularly the 'spiritual principles' thing?

The priesthood of Christ is not the priesthood of Melchizedek. The priesthood of Christ is not the CONTINUATION of that of Melchizedek. The priesthood of Christ stands alone as superior and over and above every other priesthood that has ever existed. Take time to STUDY the book of Hebrews CAREFULLY.

I will back up my claim on NT giving later today.
Did the NT not talk about prayer, sexual immorality, etc? Common, man!
The Kingdom of God is one ONLY to the extent that the ruler is the same. But the system of administration and some other details changed.
For example, was every believer a priest under the Mosaic Law? Is every believer a priest under the Church Age?

When you now begin to talk of MISSING MANUSCRIPTS then I'm AFRAID you're treading on VERY SLIPPERY GROUNDS! I do hope you know that.

Could it be that some anti-tithers made those manuscripts disappear? Lol!!
Was it because those manuscripts contained more direct statements about tithing? Missing manuscripts indeed!

petra1:
The scripture you quoted has to do with vows made for saints in Jerusalem during the economic crisis .
........
This was just a special offering raised for a specific project . To gather money for saints in Jerusalem
............
As explained above that was for a specific project just like under the law. God gave the parallel principle of tithe for the Church .

1 Corinthians 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Elhven so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

The New Testament had different occasions when Christians gave. The Apostles gave INSTRUCTIONS at different times on giving.

NOT ONCE did the issue of tithes or mandatory giving in any other form come up or was mentioned. If there were no mentions of giving at all then it may be possible to assume that the Christian could fall back on any old system. But giving was mentioned in different places. Direction as to how give was also given.

In Galatians 2:10 Paul said: "All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along." How come when the other Apostles raised this with Paul he never once wrote, in all he wrote about raising money and administering it either for the poor or others, about tithing?

It should be rather strange that in the midst of instructions about raising money whether for 'special projects' like you put it or for " saints in Jerusalem during the economic crisis" like you said, no mention of "TITHES" came up at all. Not once!

The only conclusion that a Bible student can come to is that we have sufficient information in the New Testament which shows that the Christian is not obligated to pay tithe.

BTW, 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 talks about the administration of what is received from givers NOT about HOW TO GIVE. Please apply scriptures properly.

asuustrike2009:
Quote exactly the verse from the Bible were it was condemned outrightly and stop beating around the bush. Mosaic law indeed!

The New Testament EXPRESSLY STATES that the Christian is to give in line with the following :
"Let each one give [thoughtfully and with purpose] just as he has decided in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver [and delights in the one whose heart is in his gift]. 2 Corinthians 9:7

I.e. not coerced to give nor have guilt feeling about giving.

By implication therefore, the Christian is NOT under any OBLIGATION to pay tithes. His giving should be what he has DECIDED by himself to give and not what someone else or church organization orders him to give.

This verse of the Scripture condemns MANDATORY TITHING for and by the Christian.

asuustrike2009:
You haven't answer the question. Did the Bible expressly condemned tithe yes or no?

Do you mean the Mosaic tithe? If it is that the answer is YES, the Bible is against it for the Christian.

petra1:
Epistles only address issues they had problem with. Epistles was not a new bible . The Bible they had which psul told Timothy to study is the Old Testament .
.....
The same way if tithe not not mentioned Specifically yet the principle is revealed
......
If you say the new law is love . Firstly Jesus taught it under the law just as he said it tithe under the law. Secondly he said love God . Which includes giving to him

I believe when the Apostles wrote they were CONVINCED that they were communicating the MIND OF CHRIST.

Their APOSTOLIC OFFICE and the special ministry of the Holy Spirit in their lives guaranteed that INSPIRATION.

For example, when Apostle John wrote the book of Revelations did he think was 'simply' writing his vision or did he believe he was communicating the message of Christ? When Paul emphatically declared that if anyone preached a different gospel other than the one the Apostles presented that such a one be accursed, was he merely expressing his opinion or was he CERTAIN that he was declaring the mind of Christ?

The principle of GIVING handed down to the New Testament believer is this:
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9: 7.

Freewill giving, in whatever proportion the individual believer decides is the PRINCIPLE of giving under the New Covenant.

From what has been FREELY given the needs of full time ministers can be met as well as others' needs in within the Body of Christ e.g. the poor.

asuustrike2009:
Just two questions for you. From the book of Matthew 23:23,was it stated categorically that we shouldn't pay tithe?
Did the Bible expressly said we shouldn't pay tithe? Yes or no,back it with the exact scriptures expressly so

1. Mathew 23:23 is not a directive, command or instruction for the Christian. This incident was before the CHURCH was birthed.

It was an INDICTMENT on the Pharisees for HOW they wrongly placed greater EMPHASIS on tithing than they did on what Jesus refered to as "the weightier matters of the Law". Weightier means more important, more serious. The more important matters come first. The more important matters should be emphasised more than the less important matters. But today's tithers are actually acting in DIRECT OPPOSITE to what Jesus was stressing here. They are still emphasizing the less important.

That portion starts with a "woe" on the Pharisees for not doing first things first. It was an INDICTMENT against how the Pharisees went about the spiritual life.

So, when you say "we" in your "it stated categorically that we shouldn't pay tithe?", I take the "we" to means Christians. Since it was not directly addressed to Christians then we can not apply it as an instruction to us.

2. The Bible expressly says that the Christian is not bound to follow the Law of Moses in which the instructions to tithe is found - Acts 15. The Law of Moses superceeded any other previous laws. The Law was God's binding CONTRACT with anyone who chose to follow him at that time.

Today the Christian is under a new contract IN CHRIST. He is only bound by what that new contract prescribes for him. And, tithing is not one of them rather it is:
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 CORINTHIANS 9: 7.

PRIDE is what can make a person who has long held to a position not to admit that he is wrong even in the face of CLEAR Biblical evidence.

How the CHURCH, not Israel or any other person, gave (and is still to give) is clear from scriptures. Why anyone today would think he has a better understanding than the Apostles on this is shear UNADULTERATED ARROGANCE.

The What About So and So Argument

An argument tithers bring up is:
What about so and so; where does the New Testament say we should not do it?

Petra1 is one of the proponents of this position.

The reasoning is that if the NT does not CLEARLY speak against it then why should anyone say it's no longer applicable to the Christian.

For example; where does the New Testament talk about incest.

The answer is actually simple. The EPISTLES will give us clear direction that will enable the Christian KNOW which issues are KEY for his spiritual life under the New Covenant.

The essential elements of God’s law and the issue of sin nature have been there from the beginning. So, it should not be strange for something in a past system to be included in the New. Nevertheless, the prerogative to do so rests ONLY on the Law-giver who is God.

God had his law for Adam. God had his law for Israel. The details must have differed, particularly as regards some REGULATIONS. Some essential things may remain but there were areas of differences. God EXPECTED Adam to STICK to what he PRESCRIBED for him. The same with Israel. If any Israelite, during the age of Israel, decided that he was ignoring the Mosaic Law to go back to what obtained during the previous age he would be walking in DISOBEDIENCE.

God's CONTRACT for today, tenable in the Supreme Court of heaven for today's Christian is THE NEW COVENANT IN CHRIST JESUS. It is NOT the Mosaic Law or anything before it.

Just as a contract that has LAPSED cannot be tendered in Court and stand before a Judge, the Christian cannot tender any good works based on the OLD CONTRACTS and receive God's approval for it.

Where anything that is ESSENTIAL from the old systems is INCLUDED in this new contract, the Christian is OBLIGATED to obey.

Jesus Christ summed the Law in love for God and love for others. This was again EMPHASISED in the epistles. This means then that because it is HIGHLIGHTED in the epistles it is CRITICAL and OBLIGATORY on the Christian.

So, let's say a sin is not SPECIFICALLY mentioned by name in the NT but there is a mention of its CATEGORY then it should be easy to then, by application, know that under the New Covenant such a thing is still applicable.

For example, if a particular sexual sin is not listed in the NT but sexual immorality is CONDEMNED, it should be clear then that the condemnation of sexual immorality applies to such sin.

Biblical documentations:

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Romans 7: 4
"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."

Romans 8: 12
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it."

OkaiCorne:
Please stop this hide and seek game, I have explained in that post you quoted that Jesus came to fulfill (enhance and upgrade) the law and not abolish it...

Read that post you quoted again and see the answers to your questions there. And I'm still awaiting your answers? I can give you 403 laws of the Torah you must adhere to if you insist on the validity of tithe payments.

Do you recall a certain portion in the book of James that says breaking one of these Laws means you're automatically breaking all?

He knows, that is why Petra1 has disingenuously resorted to "eternal principle" approach claiming that since tithing predates the Law and it's a "principle of the kingdom" it should still apply to the Christian.

His new thrust is to ask about incest as if that equates with their mandatory tithing and appearing not to see how it's been dealt with for the Christian.

analize701:
The Holy Spirit did some explanations there which should tell us if mentioning Tithing here was to just Emphasize the superiority of the Priesthood according to the Order of Melchizedek
.......
Again, it is for the New Covenant practitioners to know that the ordinance of Tithing Precedes and Transcends the Law.

It is to point us to the New High who will resumes the duties of Melchizedek, and because this High Priest lives forever, the ordinance of Tithe paying is to be done until the High Priest returns.


The direct Beneficiaries of this letter is anyone who believes in the finished work of Christ on the Cross as a Ransome and Justification for their Sins.


The Priesthood according to the Order of Melchizedek/Jesus is the living Priesthood. Christ will do what Melchizedek did, Take Tithe.
........
My brother if the matter is all about the superiority of the eternal Priesthood of Melchizedek, Paul wouldn't have gone to the length of talking about the Living taking Tithe.
....
When i pay my Tithe, the hand receiving it from me is not my Pastor, its Jesus',

Like someone mentioned, it is tiring to discuss with you guys. Many things you say as just conjecture. Maybe some "spirit" is revealing these things to you that others can't see.

Abraham was NOT a priest when he paid tithe to Melchizedek.

The Christian today is a royal priest in the same order of Melchizedek.

The Christian today is STANDING on the side Melchizedek was in relation to Abraham. He is not standing on Abraham's position.

Yet you're INSISTING that the same conditions apply.

The book of Hebrews NEVER said Jesus' priesthood was a RETURN to that of Melchizedek; it says he is the "guarantor of a better covenant."

The book of Hebrews NEVER said the oath that established Jesus's superior priesthood was made at the time of Melchizedek; it says "but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever."

The establishment of his priesthood came after the Law. Did you see that?

Jesus's priesthood is like that of Melchizedek BUT it is not a continuation of Melchizedek's priesthood. Jesus's priesthood in which the Christian is a part is SUPERIOR to that of Melchizedek.

Jesus Christ DID NOT come to resume the priesthood of Melchizedek; where did you see that?

The incident of Abraham tithe to Melchizedek was DESCRIPTIVE and not PRESCRIPTIVE! !!!!!!

NO WHERE does the Bible say that tithing transcends the Law. NO WHERE!!!

NO WHERE does the Bible COMMAND the Christian to tithe. That is why you guys MUST keep going back to the OLD to seek justification for your LEGALISM. The very same thing the book of Hebrews is warning against!

NO WHERE does the Bible say that the Christian who belongs to the BODY OF CHRIST needs to tithe for whatever reason and in whatever form.

When the Christian does not understand that his position IN CHRIST is unique he ends up reducing himself to practices like TITHING that do not befit his status as a ROYALTY and a PRIEST.

That is why Paul warned:
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5: 1.

petra1:
Stop getting petty and personal just go to the scripture and prove your point . Deal with topic .
Tithes , offerings , fasting , prayers , alms , Justice etc will all be principles across dispensations

Kindly CLEARLY show us from the Bible where "Tithes" are said to apply to the dispensation of the church.

petra1:
You have even answered yourself . That means you should never quote jesus again . You just shot your doctrine in the foot there

Now you are doing what you'll quickly blame others for!
No one is implying that because Jesus lived under a different dispensation there is nothing there for the Christian to learn from. Rightly dividing the word of truth is still very key.

petra1:
There are principles before the law . There are principles in the law . They are kingdom principles

Again,Kindly CLEARLY show us where "Tithes" are said to apply to the dispensation of the church.

petra1:
Where did the Bible say so. Tithing has no end just as offering .

Where did the Bible say so?

petra1:
Tithe was part of his life of faith .

Where did the Bible say so?

petra1:
But Levite who paid tithe in Abraham still paid tithe of tithe.

On what basis did they do that? On the basis of Abrahamic "eternal principle" tithing or on the basis of the COMMAND in the Law?

analize701:
Are you trying to change my OP for me? Am not daft not to know what i want. I want to talk about Hebrews Chpt 7 and WHY, not WHAT , WHY the Holy Spirit brought Tithe into the teaching. Pls follow my OP and don't try to change it.

Look at these:
1. "... ... but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest without interruption and without successor."
HEBREWS 7:3 AMP
Melchizedek was "made like the Son of God".

2. " ... ...what further need was there for another and different kind of priest to arise, one in the manner of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed to the order of Aaron?"
HEBREWS 7:11 AMP
Jesus' priesthood is being compared to Melchizedek's not Aaronic.

3. The EMPHASIS is that Jesus' priesthood is SUPERIOR to the Levitical priesthood because it is based on the category that Melchizedek's was.

4. Tithes was only used to highlight the superiority of Melchizedek's priesthood not to suggest that tithes is still to be paid.

5. To the DIRECT BENEFICIARIES of this letter it was like saying:
"Look, Jesus's priesthood supercedes that of Aaron and belongs to the category that the Melchizedek's type was; so stop wanting to go back to an inferior system and stick to the better one in Christ!"

6. An honest student of the Bible would want to get both WHOLE picture as well as particular details. This is one area many of you fail. You want support for your TITHE so you go about looking for wherever you can find it. Once you see that word the next thing will be to FIT it into your mould by all means.

7. The book of Hebrews started out with the superiority of Jesus. It continued with that same theme well into the book. It went on toward the end to say:
"Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice ... ..."

It ALL about Jesus. When Christians therefore reduce what is in this book to issues like tithes they are not just trivializing the work of Christ but setting themselves up against the God who is " a consuming fire".

analize701:
I like intelligent people and expect that you are one. If you understand my OP, you'd see that my concern is why Tithing was mentioned in Hebrews in the first place.
It seem to portray the Priesthood of Christ being better than that of Levi, coming from the Linage of Judah instead of Levi whom God choose to be priests and to take Tithes, but now, Jesus is put in the office of the eternal High Priest. Fine.
Why start by telling us who Melchizedek was, what he did, likening him to Christ?
Pls, this is my bone of contention.
Shd i repeat myself? Why did the Holy Spirit bring Tithe into this matter?
MOTIVE IS WHAT I'M AFTER.

Instead of looking at WHAT in the book of Hebrews maybe you should be looking at WHO.

For example, WHO is the most important person in the book of Hebrews? Why is he so? What is UNIQUE about him?

I hope you know what UNIQUE stands for.
Is this WHO at par with any other person? And then; Is the system, principles, order, whatever else you may call it, which he has and brings at the same level or at completely different and higher level than any other previous ones?

This line of approach may give you a BETTER PICTURE of all that the book of Hebrews is talking about.

analize701:
Did you read my OP? Pls read it all then come lets discuss my Op.
pls do not bring in the aggression stirred up from somewhere here.
No insults, no calling of names, discuss the Op pls.
My focus is X-Raying the intent of the Holy Spirit behind Hebrews 7
Let's discuss it.

Does the following logic make sense?:

1. The Orange tree has green leaves.
2. I can see a tree with green leaves.
3. Therefore that tree MUST be an Orange tree.

Now, look at something from your posts:

1. Abraham paid Tithe to this High Priest (i. e. Melchizedek.
2. The Priesthood of Melchizedek is likened to that of Christ's.
3. SO, If Christ a Priest in the Order of Melchizedek, it then means Tithes are to be paid to Christ and no more to the Levites.....

Now, maybe you can show us how the reasoning from your above posts differ from the first set I put up.

It is interesting that rather than CLEARLY express Biblical reasons to show why and how tithing is still required of the New Covenant believer today all that the pro-tithers and the pastors in particular do is to either attack the messenger rather than focus on the message.

This whole thing is revealing the Spirits of these 'men of God'.

Today's tithing goes contrary to everything the biblically recorded practice show.

- the poor received tithe and never tithed in Israel but today's pastors PUSH the poor to tithe.
- the priesthood in Israel RECEIVED the the tithes but today's royal priests are the ones being emotionally manipulated to tithe.

The list can go on and on and on.

In spite of the fact that there is no New Testament command to continue or even modify tithing in line with the New Covenant, today's pastors have come up with their own CONCOCTED type of tithing found NO WHERE in the Bible.

The New Covenant is SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER one, whether pre-law or under the Law, therefore it is the New Covenant that should give VALIDITY to past laws or principles.

Where the New Covenant VALIDATES anything of the OLD it stands. Where it does not validate anything of the old there such a thing is not binding on the Christian.

There is no validation for tithing in the New Covenant.

analize701:
Who said i'm stuck on my ways? I need us have a discussion using the scriptures before us. I must not accept what you'd say and vise versa, but that doesn't stop us from having a discussion which will benefit someone.

It is interesting that rather than CLEARLY express Biblical reasons to show why and how tithing is still required of the New Covenant believer today all that the pro-tithers and the pastors in particular do is to either attack the messenger rather than focus on the message.

This whole thing is revealing the Spirits of these 'men of God'.

Today's tithing goes contrary to everything the biblically recorded practice show.

- the poor received tithe and never tithed in Israel but today's pastors PUSH the poor to tithe.
- the priesthood in Israel RECEIVED the the tithes but today's royal priests are the ones being emotionally manipulated to tithe.

The list can go on and on and on.

In spite of the fact that there is no New Testament command to continue or even modify tithing in line with the New Covenant, today's pastors have come up with their own CONCOCTED type of tithing found NO WHERE in the Bible.

The New Covenant is SUPERIOR TO ANY OTHER one, whether pre-law or under the Law, therefore it is the New Covenant that should give VALIDITY to past laws or principles.

Where the New Covenant VALIDATES anything of the OLD it stands. Where it does not validate anything of the old there such a thing is not binding on the Christian.

There is no validation for tithing in the New Covenant.

hisgrace090:
Mind you, that this post of yours is not friendly with many people.

WeatherTruth or false.

Like Jesus Christ said, It is the TRUTH that sets free.

But again like he said in John 3:19 - "Men love darkness rather than light"

TITHING: How Today's Christian Got it Wrong

1. There is NO WHERE in the Acts of the Apostles or the epistles that tithing is prescribed for the Christian.

2. Incidentally the CHURCH in Acts of the Apostle had a situation where some felt that Christians had to continue to follow all that is in the Mosaic Law. (Acts 15)

3. At the end of the day the Holy Spirit guided them to the conclusion that Christians are not to follow the Law.

4. Christians who INSIST on tithing or threaten others on tithing or even advocate monetary blessings for tithers ALL GO BACK TO THE OLD COVENANT to justify their positions.

5. Whilst they claim to be under the New Covenant it still seem more comfortable for them to run back to the old to determine how to live their NEW LIFE IN CHRIST.

6. TWO general positions by tithe advocates are: (1) Tithing based on the Law of Moses and (2) Tithing based on recording of tithing practice before the Law e.g. Abraham's incident with Melchizedek.

7. Interestingly the prescription for tithing under the Mosaic Law is very clear. It was ONLY AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE that were to be tithed.

8. When any pastor or person resort to the book of Malachi (particularly chapter 3) to justify tithing what such people fail to point out is that the TITHES refered to there is the ones prescribed by the Mosaic Law. So, such a person needs to show how and what EXACTLY the Mosaic Law prescribed as tithes. Malachi chapter 4 verse 4 clearly ask the same audience of book to remember the law of Moses.

9. For those who use Abraham's encounter with Melchizedek to justify tithing they need to see that that incident only showed what happened. There was no instructions to pay tithe as a result of what Abraham did. Abraham did many other things, including telling lies, but no one (I hope) will use those incidents as a RULE for Christian living today.

10. Besides, Abraham was neither compelled not cajoled to give. Secondly he gave out of SPOILS OF WAR not from his business. Honesty demands that this incident is really not a best example to give but since pro-tithers look for anywhere and anything that SUGGESTS tithing they run to it.

11. Other tithe advocates pick on the statement of Jesus in Mathew 23:23 - "“Woe to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth (tithe) of your mint and dill and cumin [focusing on minor matters], and have neglected the weightier [more important moral and spiritual] provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the [primary] things you ought to have done without neglecting the others."
MATTHEW 23:23 AMP

12. What Jesus was saying that the Pharisees tithed were ALL plant items, not money.

13. Tithes advocates looking at this verse CONVENIENTLY ignore the FACT that Jesus said there were other things that were WEIGHTIER.

14. They pick on the tithe aspect and BLOW it out of context and over and above everything else that Jesus was trying to point out.

15. No SINGLE Biblical instruction exists for tithes to be changed from AGRIC produce to money.

16. When the Bible said:
"For Christ is the end of the law [it leads to Him and its purpose is fulfilled in Him], for [granting] righteousness to everyone who believes [in Him as Savior]."
ROMANS 10:4 AMP
It meant EVERYTHING culminates in Christ.

17. How today's Christian is to give is clearly stated in scriptures:
"Let each one give [thoughtfully and with purpose] just as he has decided in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver [and delights in the one whose heart is in his gift]. 2 CORINTHIANS 9:7

18. When Christians are emotionally pressured to give, that amounts to human good and legalism contrary to the life of GRACE that is the plan of God for the Christian.

petra1:
Tithes and offering are eternal principles .

What are “eternal principles”? A basic definition will do.

If tithe is wrong Offering giving should be wrong and almsgivimg should be wrong also . If the pastor preaches benefit of salivation is he forcing people? How come when he preaches benefit of tithing non givers will say he is forcing people?

Tithe is a TYPE of GIVING.

Biblical TITHING had the ‘WHAT’ and the ‘HOW’ it was to be done. When anyone fails to go by God’s DIRECTED WAY then it is wrong like God pointed out in Malachi and had to REFER the people BACK TO WHEN IT WAS PRESCRIBED (Chapter 4: 4).

It is when the God given way is not followed that tithe or any other giving is wrong.

Your logic that if one is said to be wrong then the others are wrong is a FAULTY logic.

When Christians are COERCED to follow a particular way of GIVING contrary to what the New Covenant clearly says, then that COERCION no matter how subtle or innocent it may seem, makes it wrong.IN CHRIST

Does the Bible actually preach benefit of tithing FOR THE CHRISTIAN under the New Covenant?
It will be good if you can show us where.

petra1:
It was only a response to a mocker who insults and that’s the only place . I usually ignore them .

God didn’t create a new bible for The church . Everything was based on the old . If paul condemn homosexuality it’s because it’s against the law.

It’s rather you guys who try to ascribe To the new what it’s not and try to take advantage of silent areas of scriptures
God never at anytime ended tithing nor condemns tithing OT offering

But that’s precisely what your are doing . What christ fulfilled is clear . If God hadn’t given a contrary instruction or principle we have no such right . You can’t pick one aspect to condemn

But same Apostle wrote 1cor 9:14-15

Pls kindly let’s avoid the use of the word mandatory “ because it’s too strong . Tithing and offerings are necessity just as prayer and fasting and honoring your parents

It’s your theology Where did the Bible say so ? Secondly freewill offering was part of the law .

Because answering the question will probably demolish what position you hold .

'that is, the mystery which was hidden [from angels and mankind] for ages and generations, but has now been revealed to His saints (God’s people). God [in His eternal plan] chose to make known to them how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in and among you, the hope and guarantee of [realizing the] glory."
COLOSSIANS 1:26‭-‬27 AMP

"and that by [divine] revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I have already written in brief. By referring to this, when you read it you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not disclosed to mankind, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the [Holy] Spirit;"
EPHESIANS 3:3‭-‬5 AMP

The above two passages clearly show that the Church Age and her doctrines were unknown to the past generations. It was a mystery - hidden to them.

The uniqueness of the Church includes its SUPERIORITY over every spiritual system that existed before it.

Part of that uniqueness is the FREEDOM or to use a word some of you enjoy - LIBERTY - which the individual believer has in Christ in many areas. Notice I said IN MANY AREAS before that statement is misconstrued for something else.

Even a simple look at the documentation in the Bible about the CHURCH shows that that freedom DEFINITELY affects the believer's GIVING.

The Christian can choose WHAT to give and HOW to give. NO particular way is prescribed for him. TITHING IS NOT NECESSARY FOR HIM. If he chooses to tithe IN LINE with the PROTOCOL of the New Covenant it will be acceptable to God. If he chooses any other way apart from tithing but still IN LINE with the PROTOCOL of the New Covenant will still be acceptable to God.

Remember what Apostle Peter told Ananias? His property remained his and he could choose what to do with it. But when he operated under a wrong motive and LIED, his death show to all God's disapproval of a LEGITIMATE thing done with the wrong motive.

Any Christian who TITHES with the wrong motive will receive the same disapproval from God. It does not matter how he FEELS. Ananias must have felt on top of the world when approaching the Apostle. God was nonetheless unmoved. That God doesn't follow wrong giving today with death does not diminish his displeasure for wrong motivation: A displeasure Jesus Christ expressed toward the Pharisees over and over again in the course of his ministry during the first advent.

So, the Christian is free from ANY OBLIGATION to give a FIXED PERCENTAGE. He is UNDER God's COMMAND to give as he wills as long as it is WILLINGLY and CHEERFULLY. When the motive in the heart is right, God is pleased with what is given NO MATTER THE PERCENTAGE: And no matter how BIG or small.