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Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 1:12pm On Sep 06, 2018

Empiree:
what is shahada?. Shahada is clearly written and pronunced several places in the Qur'an. Also testimony of prophethood of Muhammad is written clearly in the Qur'an. What is the meaning of shahada?

Do you believe in Allah ALONE to be a Moslem or must you believe in Mohamed also before you can be a Moslem?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:06am On Sep 06, 2018

true2god:
I just like you Muslims because you will never fail to disappoint. I will quote the ayah you quoted one-by-one to show you how intellectually corrupt you are:

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
(21:25) And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, “There is no deity except Me, so worship Me.”

The above is how sahih international translation puts it so simple. The ayah (though I don't even belief in the nonsense Quran) simply quoted an allahh telling Mohammed that we already send messengers before you with the same message that 'there is no any deity excerpt me (allahh). So what's so difficult for you to understand in this short sentence? How does this relate to the shahada?

The second ayah you quoted (Quran 48:29):

Sahih International : Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.

The above ayah asked Muslims to be wicked to unbelivers but merciful to themselves. I didn't see any shahada there unless you want to tell that anytime I see the words 'Mohammed', 'allahh' and 'messenger' in the same sentence I must accept it as the shahada.

The shahada that every Muslim proclaim is: 'there is no god except allahh and Mohammed is his messenger'. I was expecting you to show me where we can find this exact statement in the Quran as an article of faith but you were wobbling here and there and throwing verses. Just show me the ayah that said I must recite the shahada (or where the shahada is expressly written) and I will become a Muslim.

Asalama lekum!

Thank you true2god

Moslems are quick to say "Show us EXACTLY where Jesus said. ... ...." Now let empiree show us exactly where the SHAHADA is in the koran.

Let him tell us if a person can be a Moslem today by believing in Allah ALONE without believing also in Mohamed.

Quoting half verses to try to prove point is simply DECEIT. This has been used by Moslems to blind millions to the true Islam.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:33am On Sep 03, 2018

Empiree:
You didnt disappoint me. I knew this all along. You are a kafir. Where did Jesus make this claim?. Even if we are to accept that Jesus is part of God, therefore it makes him God, then, all human beings are also part of God and we are all Gods becuase we are all created from spirit of God. Qur'an says

“He(God) Who has created all things in the best possible way. He(God) commenced the creation of man from clay; then produced his seed from an extract of base fluid; then formed him and breathed His(God) Soul into him and gave you hearing, sight and hearts. What little thanks you show!” (Surat as-Sajdah, 7-9)

See how easy Quran explains it?. See that verse of Quran knocks off your warped belief system. All of us humans are borne through mere breath of Creator, Allah. So how does that make Jesus God?. The basic difference between we ordinary humans and Jesus and all other prophets and messengers is because they received revelation and God Almighty constantly touched them with pure soul. But we ordinary human's soul may be corrupted at some point.

You need to renounce christianity. You have ran out of idea man. Christianity is not from God and Jesus NEVER preached christianity. You hear me?.

See how the Bible explains it:
"... Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death - even on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." [Philippians 2: 5-11]

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." [Colossians 1: 15-17]

"(God) has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." [Hebrews 1: 2-3]

The only fitting response to all these is - Praise the Lord!

Empiree:
The Black stone in itself is not significant to our system of belief. And the hadith you posted below already answered your question

The black stone came down with Adam. It is not idol. The Black Stone was sent down by Allah to this earth from Paradise.

The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

So you can see there is no specific attachment to the stone to the point of making it object of worship.

If people start kissing the statue of a leader, or a tree or some other objects, what would you say that they are doing? Would you describe those actions as INSIGNIFICANT?

Kissing an inanimate object is equivalent to paying homage/worship to that object. It cannot be seen otherwise. And Moslems say they are not to worship anything apart from Allah.

Your arguments in defence of kissing the black stone are simply nonsensical.

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 11:27pm On Sep 01, 2018

Empiree:
If you care to know, yes, sun is physical, light is visible, ray is visible, heat is invisible but can be felt.

So, a single physical phenomenon can exhibit different DISTINCT properties but all unite as ONE.

Now, it should be easy for you to make your application from there.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:32pm On Sep 01, 2018

Empiree:
You made analogy of God with Sun. And you tried to unsuccessfully describe trinity by saying Sun, light and ray are similar example. This is very ridiculous. You need to ask for forgiveness.

No, sir. I knew where you were driving at. I caught you in the act

Just answer the simple question then we'll proceed:
Which is the sun then; light or heat or rays? Or all together at the same time? Is the Sun light, heat and rays at the same time?[/b]And now you gonna tell me you aren't making comparison?. If you wanna hear, yes, light and ray emit from sun. The sun is a major source of ultraviolet rays. So what?. We are dealing with your Bible here. And why did you stop at Sun, Light, Ray to make it sound like example of triune god a k a Trinity?. Very well then. How about heat?. Heat also generates from sun. So it is no longer 3 elements

Now, go ahead and finish your theory

So, is the sun [b]three things or is the sun one thing?

I need to be sure you can understand physical matters before getting into spiritual issues.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 5:46pm On Sep 01, 2018

Empiree:
Astagfirullah! You are comparing Creator with creation?

Show me where I compared the Creator and creation in that my post. Show me!

Don't ASSUME what I did not state. If you do you will not be following my line of reasoning and miss out altogether.

I ONLY asked you about the Sun.

I was laying a foundation for something but you seem to have gone off at a tangent.

Just answer the simple question then we'll proceed:
Which is the sun then; light or heat or rays? Or all together at the same time? Is the Sun light, heat and rays at the same time?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:12am On Sep 01, 2018

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY" AND "GRACIOUSNESS" ? (6)

It is important to note again that most of what is being shared on this thread are from Islamic sources.

It is also important to bear in mind the qualities we're looking at - MERCY & GRACIOUSNESS.

“He (Abdullah b. Khatal) had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him. Another was al-Huwayrith b. Nuqaydh b. Wahb b. Abd b. Qusayy, one of those who used to insult him in Mecca.” (Pages 550-551)

What was the crime committed by these two slave girls for which Mohamed ordered that they be murdered? Their crime was as trivial as singing some songs. Would a merciful man have someone killed for simply singing a song against him? What kind of mercy is this?

Again, does this action portray mercy or graciousness?

How come that Mohamed who is said to be "the mercy to all mankind" NEVER seem to exhibit mercy in all these instances?

Why is it that Allah, said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, never prevail on his prophet to exercise restraints and show mercy?

"Most" means 'greatest in amount or degree'. How come that greatest in amount or degree is NOT reflected in any of these actions either by the prophet or his Allah?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 6:59am On Sep 01, 2018

Empiree:
Astagfirullah! You are comparing Creator with creation?.

Show me where I compared the Creator and creation in that my post. Show me!

Don't ASSUME what I did not state. If you do you will not be following my line of reasoning and miss out altogether.

I ONLY asked you about the Sun.

I was laying a foundation for something but you seem to have gone off at a tangent.

Just answer the simple question then we'll proceed:
Which is the sun then; light or heat or rays? Or all together at the same time? Is the Sun light, heat and rays at the same time?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:43pm On Aug 31, 2018

Empiree:
Okay, so God the father is separate entity. And Jesus Christ is also separate from what you just said. I'm I right?.

In another word Jesus is not God. I'm I right?

I asked a brother of yours about the Sun. He never answered.

I ask you the same questions:
Does the Sun have light? Yes.
Does the Sun have heat? Yes.
Does the Sun have rays that cannot been seen? Yes.

Which is the sun then; light or heat or rays? Or all together at the same time? Is the Sun light, heat and rays at the same time?

When the Sun is giving light does the heat disappear? When the Sun is giving out rays does the light go off or the heat become cold?

If a physical object can be 3 in one why is difficult for you to understand that concept?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:04am On Aug 31, 2018

Empiree:
I know you have been using "UNIQUE" for quite some time now. You used it here again in order to single out Jesus christ. To make your case worse, you made distinctions with "BEGOTTEN" by dividing the definition and came up with unique and ultimately changed the second meaning which i underlined above. Now, take a look at Greek definition of UNIQUE, it contradicts your definition you attributed to them. BEGOTTEN means human procreation in all dictionaries including Greek's. So where did you get your idea from?.

There is nothing like "UNIQUE" in Greek definition of BEGOTTEN. Check out attachment

I really do not see your point. But let me give some clarification.

1. You pasted a dictionary definition of the word "BEGET".
2. It had two (2) meanings.
3. I stated that it is the context or the writer's claim that would determine which of the meaning applies to a statement made using the word "beget".
4. That second meaning said: "to give rise to"; "bring about".
5. So, according to the dictionary you pasted (note: 'YOU') BEGET is NOT ONLY about human procreation. Right?
6. The Greek word that was translated to "begotten" is "monogenes". That word has the element of 'one of a kind' i.e. 'unique' in its meaning. So it is in order to use 'one and only' or 'unique'.
7. I hope this has clarified things for you.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his UNIQUELY born Son that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: See How The Bible Agree With The Quran On The Issue Of Jesus Crucifixion by plainbibletruth: 9:08am On Aug 31, 2018

Abdulgaffar22:
On the authority of Holy Qur'an;

WAS JESUS REALLY CRUCIFIED ?

Since you keep coming up with the same argument in different titles it wouldn't be out of place to repeat answers previously given for readers to see.

ON THE CRUCIFIXION:
1. The quran NEVER denied that there was a crucifixion.
2. In the narrative of the quran Allah SUBSTITUTED another person in place of Jesus.
3. So, the quran shows that there can be a SUBSTITUTIONARY death - one person can die in the place of another person.
4. Moslems therefore have NO REASON to argue that one person cannot be a SUBSTITUTE for another since the quran clearly claims that such a thing happened.
5. If another person PAYS a debtor's debt, can it be ILLOGICAL to say that the debt has been paid?Obviously not! Except to a person with a warped reasoning. If a debt has been paid then it has been paid! No law court will rule otherwise unless Islam's judicial system operates on an upside down logic.
6. So, Abdulgaffar22, is Islam's claim of SUBSTITUTIONARY death on the cross logical or illogical and an act of injustice?

WHY USE SOME BIBLE VERSES TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS AND REFUSE OTHERS?
When you use some Bible verses to attempt to prove your points but refuse to accept other verses EVEN in the same book of the Bible, you only show yourself as a deceiver. Otherwise on what basis do you pick and choose which to accept?

DECEPTIVE TOPICS:
You use titles that bear no relationship with what you end up posting.
You claim here a title on how the Bible agrees with the Koran on the crucifixion yet you end up showing the DIFFERENCES between the two.
You end up displaying the same DECEIT of Allah as regards the crucifixion.

If you claim Jesus's death couldn't have affected Old Testament people then show us how Islam's SHAHADA worked for those before Mohamed. Or do you admit that a person can be a Moslem without believing in Mohamed?

I have shown you before now how Jesus's ministry was to the WHOLE WORLD but started with and in Israel. I quoted Bible references to that effect. Yet you neither disproved them nor acknowledge them as right but instead you keep coming back with the same issues. That is not a sign of someone who seeks the truth. Instead it is the opposite and more rightly about a person who just wants others to accept his position rather than seeking the TRUTH about an issue.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:19pm On Aug 30, 2018

Empiree:
I am only concerned about this part where you seem to make sense.

See how you arrived at Son of God and Son of Satan?. Now, I don't have problem with this. The problem is, by your definition of Son of God does that it means that people of moral character are sons of God?. This is what I told you earlier. But Son Of God in the Bible means anyone who possessed good character but you disagreed.

In that case, it was not only Jesus but other prophets and messangers and God-loving people are also sons and daughters of God..

Anyone with bad or wicked character are called Son of Satan. See how clear this is?.

Now if you disagree with what I just said you will forever have conflicted faith. So by what you said about son of God and Son Of Satan CONTRADICT the idea of BEGOTTEN. Begotten is animal act like human beings. This is what your bible described by calling Jesus a "begotten son". Which means God has a wife He copulated with (God forbid).

So how do you reconcile your bible saying Jesus is begotten son of God (John 3:16) and what you said illustrating that Jesus being Son of God means he possessed moral character and doesn't mean God has a wife?

Remember that DEFINITION of beget, which is past tense of begotten is human nature.

Answer this quick question. Who is Jesus?.

A). Human being

B). Son of God

C). God

Remember I said: "One needs to understand how the user of that term meant it to be."

Now, the dictionary you pasted has two sets of meaning for the word "beget".

One refers to the human procreation process.

The second is: "give rise to"; "bring about".

So, when faced with the use of the word "beget", context or the user's choice of the two options of meaning determines what should be taken as the meaning. We can't just be at liberty to decide which one to pick.

In the case of Jesus Christ the context shows clearly that it is not refering to the usual process of human procreation. God the Father brought about the humanity of God the Son. The Greek word used for "begotten" actually means "unique" or "without equal".

To disregard all these and then attempt to force a particular meaning on the word will simply not be correct.

Jesus in his UNIQUENESS is God, Son of God who became a human being through the INCARNATION in order to pay for the sins of mankind so that anyone who accepts the payment made for sin will have eternal life.

He who has the Son [by accepting Him as Lord and Savior] has the life [that is eternal]; he who does not have the Son of God [by personal faith] does not have the life.
1 JOHN 5:12 AMP

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 11:02pm On Aug 29, 2018

Empiree:
you added UNIQUE to it. That's not what the Bible says. There context of the Bible's son of God applies to every good person including other prophets, which means God has sons by tongue. But if you insist, then you have to give us definition of Son Of God. Or you are saying Son Of God means begotten which makes you heretic and blasphemer.

You made this up base on your whims.

what you just said here makes you a potential ABORISHA (traditional worshipper). You contradict Divine Oneness of God in your bible.

is personality you described here 1 person or two?

So in another word Jesus is son not God right?. That means Jesus and God are two different entities, correct?.

okay. So God alone is the creator and Jesus by extension is His servant. Every prophet of God are representative of God. By extension we humans are also God's representatives

but this is also said of other prophets and messangers. If by your definition of Son Of God means Jesus is unique, then, Adam being the first son of God is far more UNIQUE bcus he had no parents.

which Bible and who wrote it?

okay so Jesus is messanger then, correct?

You just gave another confusing theory. Jesus can not be human and God at the same time. If this is the case why do many other Christians don't believe this?. Any sane human would reject this theory of yours.

I have always believed Jesus the son of Mary, the messanger of Allah.

And the testimony is this: God has given us eternal life [we already possess it], and this life is in His Son [resulting in our spiritual completeness, and eternal companionship with Him].
1 JOHN 5:11 AMP

He who has the Son [by accepting Him as Lord and Savior] has the life [that is eternal]; he who does not have the Son of God [by personal faith] does not have the life.
1 JOHN 5:12 AMP

One thing is to say that you do not want to accept what the Bible says about Jesus but to say that the Bible means something other than what it says would be tantamount to DISHONESTY and ARROGANCE.

Does "ibn sabil" (son of the road) mean that the road gave birth to the person called that name or should the understanding of how the user of that term guide its understanding?

If someone is said to be the "son of Satan" should that necessarily mean that Satan had a wife in order to have a son?
No! One needs to understand how the user of that term meant it to be.

When Moslems talk of "the mother of the book" in heaven are we to use a purely human viewpoint to assume that it refers to a FEMALE in heaven?

So, when I showed how the Bible portrays Jesus Christ that is just how it should be taken. Using any other preconceptions would mean not being truthful.

The expression used in describing the sonship of Jesus indicates UNIQUENESS. The Bible clearly states that the Son shares the attributes of the Father. That claim may be rejected but it should not be denied.
The Father and the Son are in a UNIQUE relationship. That a person does not comprehend it does not mean it should be denied.

The unity of humanity and deity of Jesus Christ should not really be an issue. You as a human being possess both a physical visible nature and an invisible aspect. To say that you are one person with two distinct aspects would not be a contradiction; would it? Insanity would be rejecting that this is the case.

Jesus' Sonship does not rest upon His being born of the virgin Mary. On the contrary His virgin birth rests upon His Sonship. Before Mary ever was, the Son of God is. Jesus does not become the Son of God, but the Son of God becomes Jesus. Thus Jesus, as the Son, speaks to the Father about "the glory I had with You before the world began" (John 17:5; cf. Colossians 1:13-20), long before Mary ever was.

Jesus is more than just the son of Mary. Jesus is more than just a messenger. Jesus is more than just a prophet. That is why he is truly UNIQUE. Even your Koran showed that he is unique. The "Injil" - the Bible - explains the extent of this uniqueness.

So, a saving belief is one that believes on this pre-existent Son of God who became humanity in order to resolve mankind's sin issue and qualify many for eternity with God.

You need to look at the Bible with an open mind. That way you can be more objective in assessing what it says.

"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22).

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 12:25pm On Aug 29, 2018

Empiree:
This means during is time, and to his people (Israelites) not Nigerians

Moses was also the truth, the way and he saved his people (Exodus 14:1-4). He was a savior in his time

Noah was also savior of his people in his time. He was the truth and the leader at the time {Hebrews 11:7}

There are many sons of God in the Bible. Adam is son God Luke 3:38. There are many sons and daughters of God in the Bible. Right now we have 7 billion children of God [John 1:12]

Jesus is "the" Son of God. Not "a" son of God but the UNIQUE Son. That phrase is describing a unique, eternal, spiritual relationship between Jesus and God the Father. From him (Jesus) others derive their relationship to God the Father. Others are accepted or adopted as "sons" in the "BELOVED" who is Jesus Christ.

His uniqueness lies in the FACT that he is distinct personal deity - One in essence with the Father. Jesus as "the Son" is different in both quality and extent from the other uses of the term.

Jesus, the Son of God, who is ONE IN ESSENCE with God the Father, has come to show us what God is like:

No-one has seen God; but God's only Son, He who is nearest to the Father's heart, he has made him known. (John 1:18)

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word"? (Hebrews 1:3)

The term "Son of God" with reference to Jesus, expresses a unique relationship. Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

This is how the Bible portrays the sonship of Jesus Christ. And it should be understood as the Bible explains it. Not in any other way.

Jesus in his humanity as son obeyed the Father to the maximum. He therefore had the SEAL of approval of God the Father: The only humanity to do so.

The salvation of the human race depends upon the fact that Jesus Christ is both fully divine and fully human, and that these two natures are united but distinct in one person — the Son of God.

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:20am On Aug 28, 2018

Empiree:
thanks for propagating to your fellow Christians. You will eventually drive them to embrace Islam.

Thanks a lot

Meanwhile

Empiree, Nice to see you're still around. I'm just contributing my little quota.

I wish the issues were as simple as the poster you pasted showed. But it's not; rather it's a matter of life and death.

Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."
That is the way to life.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:22).

These are strong definite statements that require your thoughtful response.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 1:00pm On Aug 27, 2018

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY" AND "GRACIOUSNESS" ? (5)

Still from the biography of Mohamed we find this:

Mohamed matched from Medina (which was a largely Jewish settlement which he had peviously seized, occupied and changed the name from the original name of Yathrib) to another Jewish settlement called Khaybar. When he got to Khaybar:

“The apostle seized the property piece by piece and conquered the forts one by one as he came to them… The apostle took captives from them among whom was Safiya d. Huyayy b. Akhtab who had been the wife of Kinana b. al-Rabi b. Abu’l-Huqayq, and two cousins of hers. The apostle chose Safiya for himself… The women of Khaybar were distributed among the Muslims… Kinana b. al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of B. al-Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, ‘Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?’ He said Yes. The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr b. al-Awwam, ‘Torture him until you extract what he has,’ so he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud.” (Pages 511-515)

Would a man with even a small amount of humanity torture an innocent person to death and then “choose” his wife for himself? Moslems claim that Safiya consented to marrying Mohamed. Where is the consent in this scenario? Could a woman possibly open her legs willingly to the man who just tortured and murdered her husband and her family? Furthermore, why would a prophet of God need treasure? Even if Allah is broke and needs his prophet to find money elsewhere, could he at least tell him where it’s hidden so he doesn’t have to torture some poor soul? Was Allah not capable of revealing things to Mohamed? Or was Mohamed simply engaged in guess work in his walk with Allah?

Again, do these actions portray mercy or graciousness?

How come that Mohamed who is said to be "the mercy to all mankind" NEVER seem to exhibit mercy in all these instances?

Why did that Allah, said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, never prevail on his prophet to exercise restraints and show mercy?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 3:56pm On Aug 25, 2018

Glycolysis:
Great work ,sir....

I'm grateful. Thanks a lot.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 3:55pm On Aug 25, 2018

HajimeSaito:
Thanks to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings for the good work being carried out on this thread.

Thanks for your supportive words. God bless.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 11:56am On Aug 24, 2018

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY AND GRACIOUSNESS"? (4)
Ignorance of Islamic sources and many fabricated stories that Moslems and the rest of the world are told lead to a completely false view of what Islam truly is.

One example is the completely fabricated story about some random woman who used to throw garbage at Mohamed, and how he forgave her.

In order to know the truth about Mohamed, for instance, one has to read his earliest biography, a text which was written by a man named Ibn Ishaq, a devout Muslim scholar who had no desire to paint Mohamed in any bad light or as an evil man.

In this text, which had been previously mentioned in this thread, anyone can see clearly into the life of Islam's prophet.

This text, "Sirat Rasul Allah", has been accepted by every major Islamic scholar for the last fourteen hundred years. There was never a dispute among mainstream Moslems about this Mohamed’s biography before the modern era.

So, from this biography, was Mohamed a peaceful and/or merciful man? Here are just a few of the stories documented by the writer Ibn Ishaq:

“A married man had committed adultery with a married woman and they (Jewish Rabbis) said: ‘Send them to Muhammad and ask him what the law about them is and leave the penalty to him…Muhammad b. Talha b. Yazid b. Rukana from Ismail b. Ibrahim from Ibn Abbas told me that the apostle ordered them to be stoned, and they were stoned at the door of his mosque. And when the Jew felt the first stone he crouched over the woman to protect her from the stones until both of them were killed.” (Pages 266-267)

Would a merciful man have two human beings STONED TO DEATH simply for having sexual intercourse? The more moderate Moslems today claim that stoning has no place in Islam. This claim is born in ignorance of Islam’s own teachings, and directly contradicts Mohamed’s own actions.

“Then they (Banu Qurayza) surrendered, and the apostle [/b]confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of B. al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and [b]struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches… There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900… Then the apostle sent Sa’d b. Zayd al-Ansari brother of b. Abdu’l-Ahhal with some of the captive women of B. Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons.” (Page 464)

Would a “prophet of mercy” behead hundreds of men, many of whom were innocent, and then sell their wives for horses and weapons? What kind of definition of mercy is this? Can you imagine a trench full of hundreds of bloodied heads? Not even in my worse nightmare would I want to picture such a sight. Mohamed makes even Genghis Khan look like an amateur.

Again, do these actions portray mercy or graciousness?

How come that Mohamed who is said to be "the mercy to all mankind" NEVER seem to exhibit mercy in all these instances?

Why did that Allah, said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, never prevail on his prophet to exercise restraints and show mercy?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:32am On Aug 22, 2018

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY & GRACIOUSNESS"?(3)

Mohamed ’s teachings from some of the earliest Islamic sources:

1. Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." (Sahir Bukhari volume 1, No. 387).

2. So when the sacred months have passed away then slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor rate, leave their way free to them, surely Allah is forgiving, Merciful. (Koran 9:5).

3. Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor in the latter days nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth out of those who have been given the Book until they pay the tax and acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. (Koran 9:29).

4. "To John ibn Rabah and the Chiefs of Aylah. Peace be on you! I praise God for you, beside whom there is no Lord. I will not fight against you until I have written thus unto you. Believe, or else pay tribute. And be obedient unto the Lord and his Prophet, and the messengers of his Prophet. Honor them and clothe them with excellent vestments, not with inferior raiment. Specially clothe Zeid with excellent garments. As long as my messengers are pleased, so likewise am I. Ye know the tribute. If ye desire to have security by sea and by land, obey the Lord and his Apostle, and he will defend you from every claim, whether by Arab or foreigner, saving the claim of the Lord and his Apostle. But if ye oppose and displease them, I will not accept from you a single thing, until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder. ( Muir, "The Life of Muhammad" wink

.

Again, do these actions portray mercy or graciousness?

How come that Mohamed who is said to be "the mercy to all mankind" NEVER seem to exhibit mercy in all these instances?

Why is it that Allah, said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, never prevailed on his prophet to exercise restraints and show mercy?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 3:33pm On Aug 21, 2018*

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY & GRACIOUSNESS"?(2)
See the actions of the devout Mohamed and his followers did to those that rejected him….

1) Mohamed’s followers had attacked a neighboring Arab tribe and suffered a defeat. Later they returned and conquered that tribe. They took the survivors as captives. However one of the tribe’s leaders was an old woman whom they tied between two camels and ripped her apart! (From: "The Life of Mohamed", page 665).

2) One Moslem man had a female slave who he had sex with and impregnated. She bore him children. But she was not a Moslem, (Islam allows Muslims to take female slaves and use them for sex). She criticized Islam’s founder Mohamed. The man didn’t like her doing that so one day, he had enough and he stabbed her to death. Mohamed said that her killing was legal under Islam because she criticized him. (Sunan, Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4348).

3) Mohamed sent his men to assassinate a man who disparaged him. The men, who were once the man’s friends, went to his house at night and lied to him in order to get him to leave his house. They said they were leaving Islam and needed his help. He opened his door to them and went out to speak with them. They seized him and stabbed him to death. Then they cut off his head and brought it to Mohamed . They all shouted "Allah Akbar!" and rejoiced that they successfully murdered him. ( "Sahih Bukhari", Volume 5 #369).

Do these actions portray mercy or graciousness?

Is there a DIFFERENT DEFINITION of grace and mercy in Islam?

How come that Mohamed who is said to be "the mercy to all mankind" NEVER seem to exhibit mercy in all these instances?

Why is it that Allah, said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, never prevailed on his prophet to exercise restraints and show mercy?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:42am On Aug 21, 2018*

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY & GRACIOUSNESS"?

A prophet should be expected to reflect the character of the God he claims to follow. He should exemplify in particular the good qualities of that God.

Did Mohamed reflect the mercy and graciousness of his Allah? This is what we shall examine now.

Allah is said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. He is said to be always ready to help.

It would be expected then that in Allah's dealing with his creatures these qualities will be clearly shown.

Gracious means:
marked by kindness and courtesy.

Mercy is defined as:
kind or forgiving treatment of someone who could be treated harshly: kindness or help given to people who are in a very bad or desperate situation.

These qualities therefore mean treating people with unmerited benevolence. Not reacting to people based on their weaknesses and faults but rather overlooking those frailties and reaching out to them in compassion.

So, do we find these daily touted qualities of Allah and Mohamed in their lives as recorded in Islam's books?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 2:30pm On Aug 19, 2018

Things women still can't do in Saudi Arabia

Saudi women suffer under the Kingdom’s system in which a woman is under the control of her husband, son or father.

Important decisions a woman in Saudi Arabia still cannot make for herself include:

Marry

Permission to marry must be granted by the guardian. Women who want to marry foreigners must obtain approval to do by the ministry of interior, and marriage to non-Muslims is so difficult as to be impossible.

Open a bank account

Women in the Kingdom are not allowed to have their own bank account to control their finances without permission.

Get a fair trial

The testimony of a woman is only worth half a man’s in Saudi Arabia’s legal system. Women also only receive half the inheritance their brothers are entitled to.

Travel

Passports and identification cards must be obtained with the permission of a male guardian. Women are usually also not allowed to leave the home alone.

Conclusion
The problem dates back to Mohamed. He had cast in concrete the inequality of women in koran, passed down as God's commandments and eventually recorded.
The treatment of women in the Islam follows what the koran says. Koran, chapter 4:34, has been interpreted to say that men have "pre-eminence" over women or that they are "overseers" of women.
Only when HUMAN RIGHTS is practiced in Saudi Arabia can women's rights be respected.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:39am On Aug 16, 2018

ISLAM'S VIEW OF WOMEN (Continued)
FACTS:
1.BEFORE Islam, women had a good position in Arabia: Mohamed’s first wife Khadija had her own business in which Mohamed was employed before they were married. If this position of women EXISTED BEFORE Islam the claim that it was Islam that elevated the position of women simply does not hold water.

2.Until recently women in Saudi Arabia were not permitted to drive vehicles. In Saudi Arabia, a woman’s testimony is usually not accepted in criminal cases and is worth half a man’s testimony in civil cases.

3.Up until now, many women in Islam are kept in harems.

4.Currently many women in Islam are FORCED to wear prescribed dress codes which in most cases are meant to cover up the woman’s body. Men on the other hand, have no restriction in terms of what they can wear. How does the veil encourage deep sense of purity and fidelity? How does it “save the woman’s soul from weakness, her mind from indulgence, her eyes from lustful looks, and her personality from demoralization” as some Islamic apologists claim? In other words, how does the external and physical change the internal and invisible aspects of the soul?

5.Mohamed, the "Perfect Example" himself, kept sex-slaves and that was authorised by Allah himself in the Koran. "those who you right hand possesses" is how Allah puts it in the Koran. If it was okay for Mohamed wouldn’t his followers feel it is okay for them?

Life is a living hell for women under Sharia law. The self-centred feminist movements turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed against women in Islam.
Islamic apologists have exaggerated on the privileges and right which Islam has conferred on women.
The Koran allows the man to use corporal punishment to discipline erring women. Wife battery is endorsed by the Koran: This is clearly stated in chapter 4:34 “...As for those, from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them”

Conclusion
The move to paint Islam as a revolutionary force in women's rights is a recent one, pushed by Moslem apologists who want to whitewash Islam. In truth, Islam has never exhibited an interest in expanding opportunities for women beyond the family role. The fourth Caliph, who was Mohamed's son-in-law and cousin, said just a few years after the prophet's death that "The entire woman is an evil. And what is worse is that it is a necessary evil."
Allah despises women, both Moslem and non-moslem, with such a deep hatred and loathing that one would wonder why he even bothered to create women. Any claim to the contrary is simply an attempt to fool those who may never want to get into Islam’s books to discover the real truth.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:29am On Aug 13, 2018

The Woman’s Value in Islam

The value of a woman as displayed in the koran is significantly inferior to men.

The koran states that man and woman have equal rights against each other, but that man is a degree above the woman.
In koran chapter 4:34 the koran states “men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted one above the other.” Chapter 2:228 also points in a similar direction.

A woman’s word is not valued as highly as a man’s. In fact, in matters of testimony, it takes two women to testify to the same facts as one man. Chapter 2:282

If woman is not created with the same capability as man, then her ability to recall specific details of a contractual agreement could be hindered. Thus, two women will be able to provide a more trustworthy recollection of the agreement.

The implications of this view are clearly seen in the cases of rape. A woman who is accused of adultery or fornication must provide four witnesses to testify that she was not willfully committing adultery or fornication, but that she was raped. The koran states that in cases of rape, the woman can swear by Allah that she is truthfully speaking of the crime against her and the law shall acquit her of punishment.
Yet, that same verse states that a man has the same opportunity to swear by Allah of his veracity. In the context of rape, where rarely an audience is present, that leaves the court to determine the outcome between a man’s word and a woman’s word. Inevitably, by following the regulations placed within the koran, the man’s word must take authority over the woman’s. Thus, a woman who has been raped must find four witnesses to testify on her behalf or risk punishment, and possibly death for her immoral actions. Chapter 24:8,9.

A woman must be careful when she merely opens her mouth and speaks in a room where men could hear her. Her voice can be considered alluring to men and may cause one to stumble into sin. Thus the koran states that a woman, specifically the Prophets wives, should only answer a man, other than her husband, if there is a genuine need for the answer. Chapter 33:32-33

Conclusion: The value of a woman’s opinion is not seen within the pages of the koran. In fact, within the verses of the koran, it is almost presented as a gift to women that they do not have these responsibilities or obligations, rather they should be pleased to stay at home use their skills within the context of the home.

Implication: When moslem propaganda claim the opposite of what the koran states we can only see that LYING is nothing to them. When lying is preferred to the truth, a big question hangs on the religion that claims to be the final revelation from heaven.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:20am On Aug 12, 2018*

WHAT IS ISLAM'SVIEW OF WOMEN?
Statements such as:
"Islam gave women basic rights centuries before the west did"
and
"Islam has empowered women with the most progressive rights since the 7th century. In Islam, women are not inferior or unequal to men"
are propagated to give the impression that Islam gives high regard and great liberties and rights to women. Any opposite claim is viewed as lies and propaganda by haters of Islam.

Koranic verses are even be quoted to support Islam's "elevated" treatment of women.

But what do the koran and hadith ACTUALLY say?
According to Mohamed, women lack common sense because their minds are deficient.
His statements are illuminating:

[Mohamed said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense. (Sahih Muslim, Abdul Hamid Siddiqi, tr., Number 142)

The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Number 2658)

Conclusion - It is not hard to find out what the Islamic books say. Therefore why do Moslems say the opposite. Moslems are in denial about what their books say.

Implications:
If there are contradictory statements in Islam's books on any issue can we really accept that those contradictory positions are from heaven?
If moslems know the truth but are trying to project a false position are they presenting the lifestyle and integrity of the Allah they claim to serve: Does Allah speak from both sides of the mouth?

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:58am On Aug 10, 2018

enilove:
This is a very good exposition .

God bless you .

Thank you for your encouraging words.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:42am On Aug 09, 2018

ARE THERE DISCREPANCIES OR CONTRADICTIONS IN THE KORAN?

Quran 4:82
" Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction."

" Do they not ponder on the Qur'an?
Had it been from other than Allah,
they would surely have found therein much discrepancy."

The above are two translations of the koran 4:82. That verse is used by moslems to claim that because the koran is free from discrepancies it is proof that the koran is from God.

But is that really the case?

Who was the first Moslem?
A number of passages in the koran said Mohamed was the first Moslem:

Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. S. 6:14 Pickthall

Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). S. 39:11-12 Pickthall

Directly contradicting these in both the koran itself and various Islamic sources are statements which refer to the presence of true believers both before and during Mohamed’s alleged "call" to prophethood. The koran mentions that Adam, Noah, the Patriarchs, the twelve tribes of Israel, Moses, Jesus etc., were all believers and many of them even messengers who lived a long time before Mohamed:

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."… And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."… When learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. S. 2:30, 34-35, 37

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. S. 4:163

We gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) guided: and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: thus do We reward those who do good: S. 6:84

And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: Our Lord! and make us both submissive (muslimayni) to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting (ommatan muslimatan) to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahimbut he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous. When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim (aslim), he said: I submit myself (aslamtu) to the Lord of the worlds. And the same did enjoin on his sons and (so did) . O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore (illa waantum muslimoona).

Implications:
If others existed before Mohamed who were Moslems then this CLEARLY contradicts the koranic verses that Mohamed as the first moslem.
Can the koran then be trusted as an accurate book?
Remember, it is suppose to be a book with an exact copy in heaven.

If there were people who were first Moslems before Mohamed then I meant that they had a knowledge of ISLAM. If they did then Mohamed WAS NOT the first to preach Islam. The Koran must have been communicated to those ones. The whole idea then of the koran been a SPECIAL REVELATION to Mohamed is thrown into the dust.

If ALL these people before Mohamed were Moslems and by implication had KNOWLEDGE of their religion Islam then where is the evidence of how they had this knowledge? Did they have a "Koran" before Mohamed? If so, where is it? Particularly since many ancient manuscripts dating back to thousands of years still exist today.

So, to the claim that if the Koran were not from Allah we would find contradictions in it we see that there are indeed contradictions. To what conclusions then can we come: The Koran has failed its own test.

Moslems therefore have a lot of problems they have to deal with. Unfortunately the average moslem is not told all the truth about his religion.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: How Islam Managed To Solve The Most Nagging Problem In Christianity by plainbibletruth: 11:38pm On Aug 06, 2018

Mohamed's Low Opinion of Women
Mohamed:
(1) permitted husbands to beat their wives,
(2) repeatedly proclaimed the inferiority of women’s intellectual abilities,
(3) taught that women’s prospects for the afterlife are extremely bleak, and
(4) instructed that it is acceptable for men to rape their female captives.

These four facts allow us to arrive at a well-rounded picture of Mohamed’s view of women.

The koran permits men to have sex with their female captives (even those whose husbands were sometimes still alive), and the Hadith provides examples of when this was practiced. The Moslems decided to have sex with their captives, whom they were later going to sell. These captives were women whose husbands and families had been exterminated by the Moslems. Would these women gladly consent to sexual intercourse with the men who had killed their families? Probably not. But since the koran and Mohamed authorized sex with these captives, it is highly probable that Mohamed allowed Moslems to rape their captives.

If this is not immoral and condemnable and Moslems run to passages in the Bible to cry foul on what they consider "dirty" then we can only assume that their minds need to be reengineered.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:18am On Aug 06, 2018

The Koran has Different Versions of the Same Stories
The koran in a number of different chapters ( Suras) reports the same events with variant wording.

For example, The story of Moses and the burning bush is reported in three (3) different passages of the koran but one sees varying rendition of the story in these passages. In other words, one finds these parallel accounts containing conflicting wording and details.
This story is found in Q. 20:9-24; Q.27:7-14 and Q. 28:29-33.

Again, for book that is claimed to have a copy in heaven why would Allah not be better organised in giving the stories in the book?
Why write the same story thrice?
Why write the same story and have them differ from each order?
Does Allah not know the EXACT order things happened in the story?

Implications: The Koran is not as clear and perfect as Moslems would want us to believe. The glaring shortcomings in a book that is claimed to have an exact replica in heaven leaves much to be desired.
Who is confused about the details here: Allah or the human writers?
In other words, who actually wrote the koran: Allah or man?

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Christianity Etc › Re: How Islam Managed To Solve The Most Nagging Problem In Christianity by plainbibletruth: 8:12pm On Aug 05, 2018

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-14

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:36am On Aug 05, 2018

Does the Koran have different versions?

Most Moslems claim that the text of today's koran is the same as that received by Mohamed . This is a convenient thing to believe, but it is NOT the truth. The evidence that it is not:

1. Evidence of Change Before Uthman

Uthman destroyed other copies of the koran after making his compilation. Why? Because there were other variants that he did not want to compete with his own. Even Ibn Ma'sud refused to hand over his copy for destruction? So, how do we know that Uthman's copy was better than any of the others?

2. Hadiths say the Koran is incomplete

Both the hadiths and the Sunna give evidence that some of the koran was lost, forgotten, or abrogated.

3. Variants exist in present-day manuscripts

When existing manuscripts are compared, it can be shown that not all of them are the same. Therefore, the koran has not been perfectly preserved.

Implications:
Any claim by any Moslem that the Koran has been perfectly preserved is simply not true.

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