Plainbibletruth's Posts

Nairaland Forum › Plainbibletruth's Profile › Plainbibletruth's Posts

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (of 29 pages)

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:04am On Sep 20, 2018

Mohamed’s Capture of Mecca

Mohamed took over Mecca by USE OF force. He was NOT invited by its inhabitants to come and rule over them; neither was he elected through any PEACEFUL means to become their leader. THIS IS THE FACT OF HISTORY.

This is how it came about: As a result of his numerous raids Mohamed took over the properties of those he raided. These raids eventually made him very wealthy. As a result, he was able to amass a large number of followers and weaponry. He therefore felt no reservations in subduing whoever he wanted to either by force of arms or DECEPTIVE DIPLOMACY.

Having attained the level of strength he felt he was comfortable with, he turned his attention on Mecca, a city he ignominiously escaped from several years back. [I have noted previously that Medina which was originally called Yathrib accommodated Mohamed when he left Mecca disgracefully but he ended up taking it over].

A treaty for peace had been made between the Meccans and Mohamed. It was to be a ten-year truce. However, before the expiration of this treaty Mohamed, looking for an opportunity to take over Mecca, came up with a spurious charge that the Meccans violated the terms of the treaty. Consequently, he claimed he now had the right to retaliate and capture Mecca.

Entreaties to Mohamed were rebuffed.

Having what some record say were up to ten thousand (10,000) men at his command, Mohamed marched on Mecca. When told about the massive size of Mohamed’s army [Yes! Mohamed maintained an ARMY] at their doorstep and with the capacity of that number of men to take over the city and annihilate its population if they were to go into physical combat, the Meccans felt the better option was to capitulate.

That is how Mohamed entered the city without resistance.

After taking over Mecca however, Mohamed committed a series of crimes including killing within the precinct of the Kaaba, in direct violation of what the koran said in chapter 2:125. At one instance Mohamed chided his followers for not cutting off a man’s head but they claim they were waiting for an order from him; he expected them to know his positions on things by now and didn’t have to give a direct order verbally or by a sign.

In spite of the surrender, Mohamed killed a number of Meccans who had reverted to their former religion from Islam.

Abu Sofian escaped death only because he was smart enough to embrace Islam and Mohamed. That was why Mohamed let him off the hook. It was not because of any magnanimity or “exemplary behaviour” on the part of Mohamed. He served Mohamed’s purpose when he made this move.

What Empiree failed to say was that this same Abu Sofian had previously approached Mohamed when Mohamed was still in Medina to explain things and sort out the matter BUT MOHAMED SNUBBED HIM – so much for an “exemplary behaviour”! Maybe Empiree should tell us how Abu Sofian became a Moslem.

A man with an army is out for WAR! This should be clear even for a kid. But, maybe Moslem apologists like Empiree will now tell us that Mohamed NEVER had an army; that what he had was a band of “peaceful worshippers”. He may even go on to tell us that they were just a handful when they arrived Mecca but the people “willingly” gave over their city to them.

The conquest of Mecca was peaceful only to the extent that the people felt overwhelmed and took a decision they thought was best for the preservation of their city and people.

Mohamed had in fact given orders for the Moslems to march on Mecca. Can Empiree tell us what a military order to march on a location means? Is it to go on a “friendly” visit? The only credit Empiree gets for this is that he agreed it was a “conquest” and not an acceptance of Mohamed by Meccans.

Attempts at whitewashing history will just not work in today’s information age.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:37pm On Sep 19, 2018

Jesus and Mohamed: Major Differences (1)
Islam has a lot of strategies it employs in order to blur things. But anyone with an objective mind can easily look at issues and see clearly where the truth lies.

Let’s compare few words of Mohamed, Allah and Koran with that of Jesus.
“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do”, (Luke: 23:34)
“And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you
out,” (Q: 2.191)

“If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew: 5.39)
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers;” (Q:8.12)
“For he who insults you (Muhammad) will be cut off” (Q: 108.3).

“Love your enemies and pray those who persecute you” (Matthew: 5.44)
“If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of
him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost’ (Q: 3.85)
“And know that whatever ye take as spoils of war, lo! a fifth thereof is for Allah, and for the
messenger and for the kinsman (who hath need)” (Q: 8.41)
“How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our
terror came unto them” (Q: 7.4)

It is clear from the above who stood for peace and who did not. It is clear who expressed MERCY through and through and who did not. Moslem apologists rather than face the issues usually will resort to DEFLECTION. Instead of taking the issues raised they will bring up other extraneous matters in order to muddle up things. However, to the discerning the TRUE PICTURE can be easily seen and the right decisions made.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:35pm On Sep 19, 2018

Empiree:
I am sure that many of your evangelical supporters will even disagree with you on this. You used the world "NEVER" to narrowed down chances that he NEVER showed mercy. This makes you a bigot. James White, a christian apologist would disagree with you.

There is no parable in that. Simple and short. We can deduce from Luke 19:27 that your Jesus didnt want freedom of religion, freedom of press, freedom of choice.

Common sense should tell you that Jesus was the messenger and prophet. He was the one Gospel was revealed to. Hence, Quran is referring to Gospel according to Jesus. God had no business with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These aforementioned people who wrote their own Gospels was according to each and every one of them ABOUT JESUS. But Gospel given to Jesus was for Jesus. Therefore, any other gospels different from Gospel according to Jesus, are hearsays or are written ABOUT him.

If history is written about you Mr. plainbibletruth, it means YOU ARE NOT THE AUTHOR. In another word, Jesus was not the author of Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Simple, isnt?

1. I wrote: "it is CLEAR that Mohamed NEVER showed mercy to any person he considered to be opposed to him."
You DELIBERATELY picked "NEVER", rephrased it in your words, and now want to present that as what I stated. That is deceitful.

2. To insist that what a writer wrote as a parable is not it, is simply ridiculous.

3. You insist that what the "companions" said and "chain of narrators" is valid in Islam. Now when it comes to the gospels you now argue against the INSPIRED WRITINGS of Jesus' Apostles. What do you call that?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:58am On Sep 19, 2018*

Empiree:
You simply have nothing to show for it. If not you wouldn't be wasting your time. You could simply post what your covenants. It is very simple. Covenant is that you worship One God. That's the first if all in both O & NTs, not 3nity. That's rule number and that's all I'm interested in.

Don't get worked up bro. The Gospel that Qur'an talks about was the Gospel ACCORDING TO JESUS, not the Gospel according to Mr. Luke. Very simply isn't?. So where is the Gospel according to Jesus?. It should be one Gospel but what you have today are Gospels according to many people

and if you are shown evidence would you believe?. I'm sure not. Anyways, you may ponder over these.

Ibn Abaas (radi Allahu anhu) said, “The (Angel) Jibreel used to meet the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) every night in Ramadan and study the Qur’an with him.”

[Sahih al-Bukhari and Muslim]

Ibn Abass was companion of the prophet, which means he saw, ate, walked and dined with prophet Muhammad. This is the meaning of companion (sahaba).

As the above Hadith informs us, Jibreel used to come to the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) every night in Ramadan, and study the Qur’an with him.
In another narration, Abu Hurayrah (radi Allahu anhu) said that Jibreel used to review the Qur’an with the Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) once each year, and in the year in which he died, he reviewed it with him twice. From this it may be understood that it is mustahabb (strongly recommended) to read Qur’an a great deal and to study it during the month of Ramadan.

Abu Hurayrah was also companion.

You are trying to be smart, aren't you?. Qur'an was WRITTEN DOWN IN THE LIFETIME OF THE PROPHET, not after him. Which means he supervised it.

AGAIN, note what I've stated earlier: "Islam speaks from both sides of the mouth"

Islam is full of CONTRADICTIONS. It is therefore easy for Moslems to run to any side and argue that the claim of anyone against Islam is wrong.

Even when it is CLEAR from Islamic literature that a thing is recorded Moslems like you, looking for a way out, then run to "weak " or "strong", and where that will not work the placard of "chain of narrators" is thrown up. How convenient! How very convenient!

So, Islam and Moslems decide which portion of an Islamic document to choose as correct and which one to see as inaccurate. Even then, when a negative is pointed out in the portion they have chosen they resort to other claims to seek a way of "escape".

Mohamed is said to be a "MERCY". Yet from the Koran to the hadiths and biographies it is CLEAR that Mohamed NEVER showed mercy to any person he considered to be opposed to him.

1. The koran
Q.9: 5

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Note that it says when the sacred months have passed. This means they were not under attack. If they were, the Koran would have asked them to defend themselves so there would have been no waiting.
Even if Moslems today claim that it does not apply today, it still showed that the koran AUTHORISED KILLING during Mohamed's time.
Do we need "chain of narrators" here too?

2. Sahih Bukhari - Volume 3, Book 29, Number 72. :
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Messenger entered Mecca in the year of its Conquest wearing an Arabian helmet on his head and when the Prophet took it off, a person came and said, "Ibn Khatal is holding the covering of the Ka`ba (taking refuge in the Ka`ba)." The Prophet said, "Kill him".

3. Sahih Muslim 1:30

"The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

4. Ibn Ishaq (Mohamed's Biography), Bukhari, & others
"When the tribe of . . . Quraiza was ready to accept Sad’s judgment, Allah’s Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah’s Apostle said (to the Ansar) [or Helpers], "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah’s Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah."

ALL THESE are from Islam's books. Anyone today who wants us to believe otherwise is trying to OFFEND OUR SENSIBILITIES. And that is wicked and evil!

The Koran was written down as WHAT during the time of Mohamed?
Was it in a SINGLE BOUND VOLUME?
IF SO, what did Uthman do later on about its COMPILATION?

Is there anywhere that it was written in the koran that the gospel referred to is "the Gospel ACCORDING TO JESUS"? Why are you trying to feed people with LIES?
Is there no limit to the extent you guys would go in your PROPAGANDA?
Okay, I get it, there is no integrity in Islam as long as it furthers the course of Islam.
Is that what drives you?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:44am On Sep 18, 2018

Empiree:
Many irrelevant stuff you wrote.

Be bold to point out any irrelevant stuff I write otherwise we'll take it that you're being cowardly and simply running away from issues involved.

Empiree:
I am only replying to specific concernsCovenant is set of rules. Where are they mentioned in your NT?. Pls dont come up with blood of Jesus or he died for you. That one is bogus.

Empiree, I thought you were smarter than that. "COVENANT" is not a set of rules. Or is that an Islamic definition?

Empiree:
Serious allegation you made. Can you show us where Quran mentioned the book of luke?

You are beginning to make me think that you don't examine the comments one made before you reply.
I hope it's just that and not a more serious matter of comprehension.
This is what I stated:
" ... the koran acknowledged the gospels of which the book of Luke is one"
That shouldn't be difficult to understand; should it?
Or are you going to deny that the koran acknowledges the gospel?

Empiree:
Good i like this. It means you and true2god knew the truth all along but you chose to argue otherwise. You and him have accused our prophet(saw) of authoring Quran. See how you easily revealed the truth?. So yes, prophet Muhammad(saw) didnt write Quran. It was revelation by God. But Angel Gabriel(as) reviewed Quran with him twice towards the end of his life. And he also supervised his scribes hard copy in his lifetime.

Show us evidence that:
"Angel Gabriel(as) reviewed Quran with him twice towards the end of his life"and that Mohamed supervised "his scribes hard copy in his lifetime."

Empiree:
Good. Another confirmation of truth. I like the way you spill the bean

Thanks again for saying the truth.

This "confirmation of truth" requires a reflection from you: If people other than Mohamed wrote the koran and hadiths, can we say that they were INSPIRED and so we can trust their work? If so, then Allah had other "MESSENGERS" after Mohamed. He was therefore not the final messenger of Islam.
If, on the other hand, those people were not INSPIRED, then they acted on their own authority. Therefore we cannot trust their work.

So, on which side of these two are you Empiree?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 11:52pm On Sep 16, 2018

Empiree:
Amazing how you talk about CONTEXT but you are adamant when you quote a verse of Quran, and then insist it breeds violence while you overlook the context.

Does the koran have any context? Please show us.

Empiree:
Good. That was meant to tell you that you are a pot calling the kettle black

If the pot got a brand new replacement and the kettle still remains black, then what do we have?

Empiree:
He fulfilled the Laws means that he laid down foundation for you to follow. Otherwise, all those laws and violence verses would have been expunged before he gone. But they are kept bcus they are still operational. But you are telling me that christians have no rule whatsoever. They just live on earth to do as they wish?. You are incredible.

No one is saying that Christians have no rule whatsoever. Man, where do you get your deductions from?

Empiree:
This simply means you MUST abide by those laws so long as you claim to be his follower. The verse doesn't say "after he is gone, the laws are no longer operational". This verse is just like prophet Muhammad(saw) left the rules and laws behind for us to follow. It doesn't mean after he is gone the laws are redundant. That's wrong interpretation and understanding. They are still there in your bible. Otherwise i would have agreed with you. You're still using both OT and NT. Therefore, you are bound to follow and apply those laws.

Again, the Christian is under the New Covenant!

Empiree:
Sir, this is fraud. Who wrote this?. I guess Luke, right?. Luke said in chapter 2 that "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;"

So Luke himself was not eyewitness. everything written in it was hearsays from other eyewitnesses. So how reliable is this verse?. It contradicts other bible verses. I believe that by Jesus blood you meant his death was sacrifice and a new covenant, right?. But then he cried to God to safe him on the cross . That doesn't sound like someone willing to sacrifice his blood for you

But the koran acknowledged the gospels of which the book of Luke is one. Are you now denying the koran on this?
Btw, Mohamed NEVER wrote the koran himself, did he? So, why are you hung up this? And all the hadiths you use but are not too sure about were also not written by Mohamed; were they?

Empiree:
I dont have problem with this. All prophets and messangers were in similar position.

Did all the prophets give themselves as ransom for man's sin? You know the answer.

Empiree:
Yes, during his time(ONLY) and to Israelite people ONLY. It has nothing to do with you. You are African. We are now living in the time of Muhammad(saw)

I can't see the "ONLY his time" and "ONLY to Israel" that you are attempting to put in that portion of the Bible. What i see is:
"Salvation is found is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved." Acts 4:10

What I see is: "no one else", "no other name under heaven given to mankind"
I see exclusivity for ALL mankind.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:53pm On Sep 16, 2018

Empiree:
So, no, Christians did not move on from Old Testament

Again, for all those verses you quoted look at the CONTEXT!

Btw, why do you think that because those verses are in the OT, that Islam is justified? That's hardly any reasonable way of proving a point.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law. Didn't you see it there? He said he came to fulfil it and he did. The Christian is therefore no longer under the Law; that is the plain truth.

That is why the Bible declared that: "Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Romans 10:4.

He then set up the New Covenant.
"In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." Luke 22:20.

He also became the intermediary between mankind and God:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time."

Because he ALONE satisfied God:
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by plainbibletruth: 5:16pm On Sep 16, 2018

What is God's house today?

Who are the Levites today?

When did tithe transit from AGRIC PRODUCE that the Scripture said to become one tenth of a person's INCOME?

What is faithfulness in rightly dividing the word of truth?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:38am On Sep 16, 2018

Empiree:
my only motive is in defense of my prophet (peace be upon him)

And you don't do the same when it comes to Old & New Testaments?. You should even appreciate the fact that Islam has comprehensive background and that Islam encompasses a whole aspects of life. It covers wide range of things including very tiny little issues. Can you imagine your OT has some details about slavery but suddenly, the whole of thing disappeared in your NT to shield Jesus and his disciples?. Yet, Quran makes reference to slavery. This is very suspicious.

You wanna hear?. I don't care if you quote me for reference. If you care to know, Islam teaches us to be smart. No slack moment because once we spot the motives, we either play or get played. In another word you are being played . We don't accept nonsense stories. Is it any wonder that you cling on to this narration while you ignored many positive good things reported about him?.

Am not gonna bother myself explaining the verse because I know you will keep going in cycle. In order to shut you up one time, this verse is equivalent to this Bible verse.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.[/color]

There are many more of this, you know that. Please don't reply me with "this is old testament". It is YOUR BIBLE.

[Exodus 22:20

Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be killed.

Thanks for helping me out. I need not waste my time replying this. You already knew the answer

you mean like your bible was completely interpolated and changed?

Your old God was violent criminal before he reformed himself and brought about new testament and renounced violence. But in reality he didn't eschew violence. He simply took a new dimension violence in modern world

This is his new way of waging war on DISBELIEVERS {MUSLIMS}

Matthew 10:34-39

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Sword mentioned in the Bible verse is now gun, white phosphorus, wmd. Christian terrorists have these today and they use them indiscriminately. So you can see clearly this is a Christian dinning with terrorists. His profile speaks volume.

The NT is said to be "NEW". Can a new thing be different from an old one? If the New replaces the Old why would you want to insist on referring to the Old?

The Christian has moved on from the old: If Islam still wants to cling to its past so be it.

In Luke 2:35 we have:
"so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too".
So, Empiree, just because you see the word "sword" in a verse of the Bible does not mean you see it as literal and immediately make it to mean guns today. Context matters. Look at the context of that portion you quoted.

Moslems are pained that the quality of the life of Mohamed cannot be equated with that of Jesus.

But, because they feel they must "defend" Mohamed they are ready to throw caution to the wind in order to give him a "makeover".

So, what you want us to believe is that every negative thing about Mohamed either in the koran or any other book of Islam should be jettisoned. In which case even the koran can be "DENIED", "QUERIED" or simply explains away, all in a bid to project Mohamed in ONLY a good light.

Very soon your message will be that Islam expanded by people wholeheartedly accepting Islam without ANY battle having to be fought. People just saw the "beauty" of Islam and clamoured for it; even begging Moslems to allow them become Moslems.

Soon we'll be told that Mohamed never even verbally opposed anyone. He wouldn't even hurt a fly with his words. He was so "peaceful" that the whole world was AMAZED at him and his humility that they started running after him.

Only the "Islamic mind" can do that. For those who are more rational and honest that just wouldn't happen.

To the rational minds objectivity ensures that they look at things from more factual standpoint rather than being emotional.

The FACTS are in the historical books of Islam. Even though Moslems like you are questioning the FACTS in your own books, history remains the same and will stand against you in judgement.

TRUTH will always conquer. A lie will require more and more lies to cover up its track. TRUTH does not require such.

Lie self destruct. TRUTH builds and heals. No lie comes from the truth.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:29pm On Sep 15, 2018

Empiree:
it is quite easy to spot your motives. Bro, it will not work. It is over 1400years now and Islam is still winning. You can say whatever you want. You simply trying to say that "since Muhammad killed innocent people I would stop believing in him". If that's your mission, I swear you are wasting your time. I am telling this right now. I understand history is very important. And yes, chain of transmission doesn't always guarantee authenticity of a report. When it comes to history or written docs, if something is not removed something has gotta be added because it is not REVEALATION. Only Quran has absolute authority in Islam and Qur'an did not give order to our prophet to kill someone just for being criticized. We have seen many handsome characters of the prophet (saw) in many ahadith how he treated his antagonists.

However, when it comes to war, there is no room for nonsense but rules of engagement prevail. If incident of Asma etc ever happened at all, it was definitely act of treasonous or wickedness on their part which perhaps posed these to the Muslim community at that time. This kind of thing exist today. Take the case of Pakistani woman, Affia Siddiqui for example who was jailed by US for posing a threat to it's army. She was arrested and now serving life behind bars. Similarly this is what happened t in the case of Asma and others. They were Jews, the killers of your God. The only reason that make me consider your case is because we seen traces of these Jewish activities on several attempts to kill our prophet (saw), and one of them finally succeeded in planning poison in his food. Possibilities exist that they posed threats to muslims which resulted to them being killed just as the case of Banu Qurayza tribe. Now, read the attachment. Here is one example of their activities probably left out by Ibn Ishaq etc.

Was Ibn Ishaq inspired by Allah?. Who certified accuracy of his report?.

Empiree:
The more I read the story the more it sounds bogus. I'm just wondering why Christians are the ones vocal about this fake stories?. Jews don't even worry much about it unlike you. This shows that you guys have ulterior motives. We muslims are under no obligation to believe the bogus stories narrated by Ibn Ishaq and subsequently narrated in Abi Daud and ibn Saad

Here are further arguments to consider.

Are you saying you have no motive yourself?

Empiree, it is CLEAR to any careful reader of Islamic literature – Koran, Hadiths, biographies, etc – that you can ALWAYS find opposite views or claims about the SAME ISSUE in ALL of these Islamic documents.

It needs repeating: ISLAM SPEAKS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE MOUTH!

Consequently, for every issue pointed out, Islam can quickly easily throw up the opposite. The GOOD, the BAD, and the UGLY have ALL been thrown into the cesspool of Islam.

So, I can be sure that you will either claim a “misunderstanding” of those verses or run to the same materials you may claim are “questionable”

You have taken pains to paste portions of Islamic literature advocating peaceful relations with others. Now what about these:
Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. Q. 9:29 Arberry

But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, - they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith, - fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. Q. 9:11-12 Y. Ali

Need I quote from the hadith also?

Islam finds all sorts of excuses to wriggle out of what is ordinarily a clearly bad picture of Mohamed. For instance: Mohamed engages in clearly UNPROVOKED RAIDS on a people, kill, destroy, loot their properties; then a man is grabbed and asked to reveal the location of hidden treasures and then killed; and what do Moslem ‘scholars’ and apologists do? SIMPLE! The man is BRANDED a war criminal, guilty of murder and treason! You saw right: WAR CRIMINAL! A man whose community was invaded by Mohamed and whose people NEVER INITIATED the attack becomes ‘a war criminal’! All to justify what the “prophet” did as just and right. That can only be Islamic “ingenuity”. Even when a man whose home is INVADED kills another in self defence he is branded a “war criminal”. That can only be in Islam.

Everything that earliest extant writers of Islam wrote is being turned upside down and are labelled as “fabrications” simply because current human rights will show Mohamed as the war criminal and since Islam STANDS OR FALL ON MOHAMED his apologists must “defend” him at all cost, no matter how ridiculous.

Mohamed was in the PLAIN VIEW of history. Because his immediate followers BELIEVED that he was from Allah they simply did not question anything he did. Even in the koran Allah seem to approve of all that Mohamed did. So, the followers and writers NEVER saw these as flaws in Mohamed but as a sign of his DOMINANCE. That was why the usual tendency to cover up a leader’s errors and weaknesses was not done by these writers. If this were not so Moslems who venerated Mohamed so much would have ensured that those negatives about him were erased from history long before now.

If today's Moslem like you Empiree are seeing things in a different light maybe REFORMATION is coming to Islam; just maybe!

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 1:07pm On Sep 15, 2018

Demmzy15:
So you're still alive?

To answer you in the words of your friend: "How market"?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 12:59pm On Sep 15, 2018

Empiree:
It is clear you didnt read the attachments or you read but chose to ignore. It is clearly written there that Ibn Sa’d and Ibn Ishaq wrote identical story that has no chain of transmission. It is said that Ibn Sa’d copied Ibn Ishaq

Did Mohamed murder Abu Afak & Asma?

It is clear that you are using another one of Islam's "ingenious" ways to wriggle out of arguments.

If the oldest extant history of Mohamed’s life is questioned by you guys, then on what basis do you have to think later documents should be accepted as more reliable?

Are you aware that Sunan Abu Dawud ALSO narrated the killing of the poetess - Asma? Is this hadith now no more "authentic" because of this portrayal of Mohamed as a cold blooded murderer?

I repeat; that Islam has contradictory position on virtually everything is VERY CLEAR to you Moslems.

Islam has been divided right from virtually after Mohamed as to what Mohamed said or didn't say or what he do or didn't do.

Efforts to clear the mist has led subsequent Moslem generations to come up with all kinds of verification systems. The isnad is one of them.

The koran has very little narrative material about Mohamed's life, yet the Moslem is supposed to see him as an example to be followed. This then leaves people like you with the only option of resorting to the biographies and hadiths on Mohamed.

But in these you meet a brick wall. Unpallatable stories about this "example" for all mankind show up. How to deal with these now becomes the issue: do you throw away the entire writings? Or what?

Then comes the usual Islam's "ingenious" way of coming up with "solutions". The "isnad" is "invented". It is dubbed "scientific". Problem solved, at least for some.

Others who are not completely convinced or cannot truthfully live with these CONTRADICTIONS but still "feel" Islam is the way, resort to being "KORAN ONLY" Moslems.

A conclusion we can ULTIMATELY come to then is that the Koran, believed by every Moslem to be pure revelation, can only be proved and justified as pure revelation, by using the human systems.

Does Chains of Transmitters Guarantee Truth?
Certainly chains of narrators are useful but they are only one aspect of history.

If we get an unbroken line of transmitters of a lie or a distortion, does that TURN the narration into the truth? Does the mere fact of an unbroken chain of transmitters make a document valid or reliable? Are the biases of the transmitters irrelevant? The plain answer to all these questions is an unequivocal "NO!"

At the end of the day it's not just an "unbroken chain" that the Moslem has to resolve. He has to battle with perhaps dozens of other "requirements" as to the reliability of the transmitters and the mode of transmission.

Empiree, one big question you've FAILED to answer is this: Are all these other CONTRIBUTORS to Islam "inspired" by Allah or not?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:33pm On Sep 14, 2018*

Empiree:
It is understandable when people hate something they can come up with trash to discredit the truth. If you read this attachment, the comment talks about the importance of ISNAD which Ibn Ishaq and his gang lacked.

BUT Empiree, I gave you another Islamic source other than Ibn Ishaq.

You seem to be the one hung up on him and repeating disclaimers on him.

Is Kitab Al-tabaqat Al-Kabir by Ibn Sa’d – who also narrated this same story also wrong?
- Is this book also ‘faulty’ in some respect especially where it ‘paints’ Mohamed in bad light by ordering the killing of this 120 year old man - Abu Afak?

Be clear in your answer.

That Islam has contradictory position on virtually everything is VERY CLEAR to you Moslems.

As a result you can always be shifty; using whatever side is convenient at any point in time to support your claims.

Christianity Etc › Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by plainbibletruth: 6:33pm On Sep 14, 2018

Topic: Is Tithing Relevant to Christian Age?
By Tim Iwe (Evang) 07038669369

Introduction
It is quite a blessing to have the privilege of writing an article like this at a time that this subject is in the airwave. There may not have been a best time to discuss this than now. My appreciation goes to Lusada congregation for creating the platform to share this special information so that many will not be ignorant of the will of God (1Thess.4:13). It is said that if you are not informed, you will be deformed. Christianity is an area that many are deformed from time to time due to acceptability of different personality as authority instead of looking for that which is right from the Holy book. The Pharisees asked Jesus “…by what authority do you do these things and who gave you that authority” (Matt.21:32) There is need to find out the source of authority of your action especially on matters of faith for false teachers are in the field deceiving many.
The subject of tithe paying have been a heated argument in the Christian faith from time to time. I call your attention to some reasons in the written word of God concerning this subject. I plead with you to examine the reasons stated below so that you can know that you are obeying God when you pay tithe or not. An action comes from faith in God when it is according the will of God (Heb.11:6) and the will of God is written in the book of life.

Origin of tithe in Ancient Palestine
In the first place, where did Abram who first gave tithe to Melchizedek (Gen.14) got the idea from? There was no law given to our Patriarchal fathers like Adam, Noah, Abram, Isaac and even Jacob to pay tithe. According to the work of Let Us Reason Together, (2009) “Giving a tithe (a portion) was not just a practice by Israel, in ancient history it was practiced throughout the Middle East. It was income for the king and his kingdom, like a tax. It may be regular, voluntary or prescribed by law of a certain country. The Egyptians were required to give a fifth part of their crops to Pharaoh (Gen. 47:24). Abraham, Jacob and others were familiar with this principle being in foreign lands; however, it was not yet given as a command for their nation.

How and Why did Abraham and Jacob paid tithe?
Let us now call attention to one misconception about Abram and tithe paying. There are many who make reference to Abraham today when they want to pay tithe. Paul made it clear that we are children of Abraham by faith (Rom.4:1) Let me shock you first by opening your eye to this truth that reading well about the first tithe recoded in the Bible, you will understand that Abraham did not even give tithe from his possession. Read the statement again. I mean it and that is the truth. He paid tithe only once in his life time. It was not commanded but incidental. He gave tithe from the spoils that he brought back with him from a war (Gen.14:1-18). He gave away ten percent of other people’s captured commodities (Heb.7:4) Note that verse 4 of Hebrews chapter 11 calls it “spoils” Let me also make you to understand that Abraham did not even take any part of what he used in paying that tithe home (Gen.14:21-24) You can now see that Abraham did not became rich because he paid tithe. He was rich before paying tithe once for life which was not from his possession. The tithe Abraham paid is NOT by command but a free will offering. Abraham was never taught or instructed by God to give a tenth, nor did he discover the law of tithing.
As recorded in Genesis 28: 20: ”And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.” This second case recorded before the law of Moses was done once too. Why take a command from what these men decided to do on their own not commanded by God?

Law of tithe among the Jews
Let us now look briefly into the law of tithe given to the children of Israel and see if it is the same with what is going on in so called godly assembly today. Because of space, it will be in an outline format here but it will be understandable too. Akpobọmẹ (2018) in his work on tithe classified the OT tithe into 4.
1. The Main Tithe: all Israelites were commanded to pay this to the Levitical priests (Num.18:19-32; Mal. 3:7-10). See also Deut.18:3-8; Neh. 13:10-12).
2. Yearly Tithe: every Jewish family is expected to celebrate once every year with their families in Jerusalem or a selected location by God (Deut.14:22-27; 2Ch.6:6).
3. The Third Year Tithe: This was a communal fellowship for the poor, the widows, and the strangers, which was celebrated before God once every three years. It was equally important under the Law of Moses just like the other tithes (Deut. 14:28, 29).
4. The Tithe of Tithes: This was the tithe to be given by the Levitical priests to God from the tithe they collected from the Israelites (Num.18:25-28).

It is Disobedience to Pay tithe with Money
There is another important eye opener we want to show you now. Are you ready for the shocker? It is act of disobedience to God for a Priest to collect tithe from a fellow Priest (Num.18:21,24,26) for the Levites were not allowed to have inheritance. It is also showing a high level of disrespect to the grace of God today to pay tithe with money. Yes, the reason is that such kills the purpose of the tithe (Deut.14:24-26) God did not ask Israel to give their money but to give food items. It seems to me that you are saying in your mind that is what I have today. If God is omniscient, then He knows that you have money today but did not ask you to pay money as tithe. The Jews had money then too but God asked for products from them not money (Deut 26:13)

The Change of Priesthood and its Implication
It is painful that the most confusion that exist in Christian faith today is as a result of many not accepting that God has done away with the laws of Moses. It is not a challenge that stated today, even the Jews find it very difficult to accept that simple truth. That was the war between them and Paul in his earthly ministry. The author of the Book of Hebrews in Chapter 7 gave a analysis that concluded in verse 12 with this statement “For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law” Why are many people fighting God today who made it clear that He had done away with the first covenant upon which the law was set. He has done away with the Levitical priesthood upon which tithe was set. Please, can take a break and read the bible passages below and your eye of understanding will open to these simple truth. (2Cor.3:6-12;Heb.10:9,10;Rom. 7:1-7; Col. 2:14,16; Gal. 3:24,25)

Divine law of Giving in Christianity
You then may be wondering how will the church care for her workers and meet her daily needs and mission projects. Like most other organizations, the church needs financial income to accomplish her work. Knowing this, God has authorized churches to raise funds by taking up collections from the members (1 Cor. 16:1,2; 2 Cor. 8 & 9; Acts 4:32-5:11; 11:27-30; 2:44,45). However, the principle guiding collection by Christians is different from the one guiding the payment of tithe.
Let Us First Give Our Lives to God’s work freely today
Our lives presented as holy offering on the water of baptism for the remission of sins is what is most important to God (Acts.2:36-42) The kingdom of God on earth in a composition of those who have given their lives to be guided by the doctrine of the Apostles (Acts 2:42) They are saints whose minds are going through transformation daily till it gets to perfection (Rom. 12:1-2) These are disciples who have been taught and determined to give according to their ability.. (See also 2 Cor. 8:12; Mark 12:41-44; Matt. 25:14-30.)

Conclusion
The law of old was interested in the physical or the man while the law of liberty in Christ is interested in the heart of man and why you do what you are doing. Giving is one way you show your service to God and it must be done as you propose in your heart, cheerfully and not by compulsion. Tithe is of compulsion and therefore is a cause in this dispensation to any to pay it and fail in other laws (Gal.3:10) God loves a cheerful giver.

Work Cited

1. Diffrẹ-Odiete Akpobọmẹ New Testament Christianity
and Payment of Tithe (2018)

2. http://www.letusreason.org/doct54.htm

3. Wiersbe , Warren W. The Bible Exposition Commentary: Old Testament © 2001-2004 by All rights reserved

3 Likes 2 Shares

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by plainbibletruth: 6:15pm On Sep 14, 2018

3 Likes 2 Shares

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 6:10pm On Sep 14, 2018

Empiree:

..... Why do Christian evangelists and missionaries so attracted I bin ishaq's?. Is it because he said what you want to hear?. Yes, I read it before that he was a Jew or had just background just as he had Christian background.

And if you read my attachments, you would see that calling him a liar was not established by me but he was called a liar by earliest Muslims like Imam Malik(ra). And I am sure you only like ibn Ishaq for his work. You still don't like him for his religion (Islam).

This is another Islamic writer I wrote about:

3. Another narrator of the same event
[b]It is worthy of note that another important early historical book of Islam – Kitab Al-tabaqat Al-Kabir by Ibn Sa’d – also narrated this same story.
- Is this book also ‘faulty’ in some respect especially where it ‘paints’ Mohamed in bad light by ordering the killing of this 120 year old man - Abu Afak?
- Are we now being told these stories are ‘lies’ and ‘fabrications’ simply because these “Islamic” values do not line up with today’s values for human rights and moral standards?
- Again, if these materials such as this one are called to question, then what right do Islamic apologists like yourself have to reference them on other matters – is it simply because they agree with your position on those other matters?
I wonder what scholars of Islam say about this writer too. Is his own rendition of this same story ‘fabricated’ also? Maybe Empiree can give us his take on this.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:54pm On Sep 13, 2018

RESPONSE TO QUERY OF ABU AFAK’S STORY – (PART 2)

Empiree – “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” (Voltaire)

1. Incidentally the Sira of Ibn Ishaq is one of the earliest written sources on Mohamed’s life. If Ibn Ishaq, who was writing closer in time to Mohamed, is questionable then what makes us assume that the documents – the hadiths, etc – written long after Mohamed’s time are any more reliable?
2. Contrary to what you modern day Moslem apologists want us to believe Ibn Ishaq has historically been respectably regarded as a genuine and honest historian of the facts he presented. He could simply have omitted details that may not have been generally well accepted; he didn’t. The subsequent editor of his work – Ibn Hisham – CLEARLY ADMITTED that he (the editor Ibn Hisham) REMOVED certain portion he found unpalatable. That should certainly speak to us about how those early writers viewed this work.
3. Another narrator of the same event
It is worthy of note that another important early historical book of Islam – Kitab Al-tabaqat Al-Kabir by Ibn Sa’d – also narrated this same story.
- Is this book also ‘faulty’ in some respect especially where it ‘paints’ Mohamed in bad light by ordering the killing of this 120 year old man - Abu Afak?
- Are we now being told these stories are ‘lies’ and ‘fabrications’ simply because these “Islamic” values do not line up with today’s values for human rights and moral standards?
- Again, if these materials such as this one are called to question, then what right do Islamic apologists like yourself have to reference them on other matters – is it simply because they agree with your position on those other matters?
I wonder what scholars of Islam say about this writer too. Is his own rendition of this same story ‘fabricated’ also? Maybe Empiree can give us his take on this.
4. What of other Moslems who agree with these writers?
Now, other Moslem scholars and writers, both past and present, do not question the historicity of these murders and have no problems citing them as genuine events in Mohamed’s life. Are we to believe that these people are less Islamic than those on the other side? Is so on what basis?
Are we to believe that it is now modern-day apologists, who want to whitewash Mohamed, who suddenly discovered that these men, writing centuries before now, had a ‘hidden agenda’ against Mohamed either because they were ‘Jewish Moslems’ or where they are not Jewish, perhaps had reasons to deliberately discredit Mohamed?
Btw, Jews occupied several parts of Arabia until Mohamed sacked them from their communities and took over their wealth and properties to enrich himself and drive Islam.
5. Does the Koran help?
Many Moslem apologists are quick to run to portions of the koran that appear to advocate ‘peace’ with others and claim that Mohamed couldn’t have gone contrary to these. Unfortunately, Islam which speaks from both sides of the mouth, has portions of the koran which contradict the so called ‘peaceful’ portions. E.g.:
Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled. Q. 9:29 Arberry
But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, - they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith, - fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. Q. 9:11-12 Y. Ali
This Q. 9: 11-12 specifically justifies classifying the issue that Abu Afak was killed for (TAUNT) as worthy of being ‘fought’.
6. Abrogation?
For Moslems who claim some or all the verses advocating violence were abrogated the question is: How come Allah, in giving a replica of the mother of books in heaven, did not deem it fit to give a final position on matters but was shifting grounds?
7. Hadith?
Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:
The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256)
This tradition shows that some of Mohamed's fighters had apparently a more sensitive conscience. They felt uneasy about night raids and the consequence of killing innocent people during those attacks. Mohamed disregarded this concern and explicitly allowed their killing despite the objection of some of his followers.
ACCORDING TO THIS HADITH: Mohamed had no regard for either women or children! Their lives were secondary to the course of Islam! It was whatever was expedient that mattered!
8. To what conclusion?
We see it every day in the media that politicians and UNESCO say whatever is expedient at the time. They can say one thing today and another thing tomorrow. When Mohamed says at one time one thing and at another time takes an opposite stand it simply shows that Mohamed acted like all politicians, looking how he can get all he can get, sometimes by talking about high principles and another time discarding them. It shows that he was not acting in obedience to a moral God with clear and unchanging principles, but that he was acting as most politicians and military leaders do to gain or to keep or extend his power. Some of his followers today have learnt very much from him.

No one is defining your prophet for you. On the contrary you are the one trying VERY HARD to redefine your prophet. I’ve shown you how Islam double speaks. These are from ISLAMIC SOURCES including the Koran! The supposed authority of Islam, the Koran, had trash talk about your prophet!

Are the verses of the Koran I quoted above also ‘fake’?

Anyone who desires the truth MUST be willing to have an open mind to look at FACTS OBJECTIVELY.
If you honestly search for the TRUTH you will find HIM because he himself said “ I am the way, and the TRUTH, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me” John 14:6

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:34pm On Sep 13, 2018

Empiree:
Bro, what part of what i said you don't understand?. Ibn Ishaq himself collected infos he wrote from people. He was himself NOT actually eyewitness to many things he wrote, just like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This is why their stories about Jesus and many other things contradict themselves. The same thing apply to any history.

You are simply looking for what suits your needs and that's your problem. It is too late now to tell us otherwise about prophet Muhammad(Allah's blessings and peace be upon him). Imagine after you die and some people who dont even know you start writing unfounded stories about you?. Is that difficult for you to understand? Ibn Ishaq did not meet prophet Muhammad. Why are christian evangelists and missionaries so attached to Ibn Ishaq?. Can you answer that?. Even wikipedia confirmed edited copy of Ibn Ishaq collections.

So i am sorry man. You can't define my prophet for me. I am not move an inch by your antics. Yes, we can scrutinize, choose and pick whatever anybody wrote about our religion. They are not the authority of islam. Quran is. Understand?. Quran is the criteria we use to judge any books including bible because NO BOOK on earth except Quran is shield from corruption including bible which pretty much has loads of unknown authors and writers. This is why you guys are very confused about the Bible. Up till this moment, none of you can tell us the basic doctrines in your religion but you got the nerve to point to islam?. I am sorry buddy, if you need to say anything about islam you must first off start with Quran. This is foundation of truth, not stories. Islam is not base on stories but revelation. And in the Quran, it made no mentioned of trash talk about our prophet. We are not required to believe any book 100% apart from Furqan (Quran), you understand?.

And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying. (Q6:116)

It is obvious you are unable to respond to each of my points clearly. You seem to prefer to muddle things up. Just something i noticed. You don't have to respond to this.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:42am On Sep 13, 2018

Empiree:
You can say whatever you want. You are not Islamic scholar. Any wonder why you anti-Islam Christians always attracted to Ibn Ishaq?. It is because if you are looking for something you will always find it where it suits you.

I barely quote Ibn Ishaq since I debate Christians here because since I learned about his work, he appeared to be complicated individual and he was a Jew. We know what Jews used to do in the time of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them all). It is written in your bible how they behaved.

And yes, he did write nice things too but I am simply not attracted to his work. Written historical docs by humans are bound to have hearsays and not only third party but they got infos from 20th party, too. Therefore, anything they said that are questionable and are obviously in conflict with REVEALATION (Qur'an), which is the ONLY GUARANTEE PROTECTED BOOK OF LAWS, we just weigh them with this Divine criteria.

QUR'AN says

“Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example/pattern for him who hopes in Allah and the last day and remembers Allah much” (33:21).

So for someone to make up stories that our prophet killed someone without a just cause, such individual must be doubted. Again, ibn Ishaq had Jewish background. I am not saying this to be discriminatory against all Jews but we have details activities of them in your Book and our Book.

The same people who lied about Moses and all prophets sent to them. The same people who blasphemed against messangers of God. The same people who attempted to kill Jesus but according to your Creed, Jews actually killed him. So you want me to take them serious?.

There is a hadith narration which states that anything narrated by the Jews and Christians in history should be treated as neither true or false. But when it comes to our prophet and they cooked up stories against him, regardless of how great historian the person is, if his narrations are against characteristics of the prophet in the Qur'an, we throw it out.

Yes, I can quote Ibn Ishaq if he narrated good stories about our messanger (saw) because even Satan speaks the truth at some point. So history books, Hadith etc are bound to have misconceptions, interpolation, corruption, distortion just like your bible. They are not protected speeches. Therefore, I am not bound by them especially in this day and age of technology where they can easily edit them electronically. So keep your Ibn Ishaq with you, buddy.

Did you see my Point 1? You are CONFIRMING it right here!
See how:
“I barely quote Ibn Ishaq”

“he appeared to be complicated individual and he was a Jew”

“And yes, he did write nice things too”

“Written historical docs by humans are bound to have hearsays and not only third party but they got infos from 20th party, too. Therefore, anything they said that are questionable … …”

“for someone to make up stories that our prophet killed someone without a just cause, such individual must be doubted.”

“There is a hadith narration which states that anything narrated by the Jews and Christians in history should be treated as neither true or false”

“But when it comes to our prophet and they cooked up stories against him, regardless of how great historian the person is, if his narrations are against characteristics of the prophet in the Qur’an, we throw it out.”

“Yes, I can quote Ibn Ishaq if he narrated good stories about our messenger”

“So history books, Hadith etc are bound to have misconceptions, interpolation, corruption, distortion”

“Therefore, I am not bound by them especially in this day and age of technology where they can easily edit them electronically.”

So, in short Moslems can pick and choose whatever they like from whichever source they want. That’s exactly what I stated. One can immediately begin to see confusion for the rational mind which only the “Moslem mind” can accept as clear.

If a Moslem historian is not “pure” Arab his word may be taken with a pinch of salt. His loyalty to Islam becomes questionable. If ANY of his statements or position FURTHERS the Islamic course it is accepted as true. Where his position CONFLICTS with ‘Islam’ the truth of it is no longer the issue; it must be rejected, his personal integrity notwithstanding.

Men other than Mohamed WROTE the koran right down to the copy you have today. Have you used the same criterion for “written historical documents” for it? Were these men who eventually DOCUMENTED the koran “INSPIRED”? Did Allah commission them to do the work? if he did, what are the implications? If he didn’t, what are the implications?

Moslems like yourself may claim that the koran is what you hold in high esteem yet MOST of what you practice DO NOT come from the koran but these same other Islamic sources. When you are asked if these sources are equally “divine” revelations you begin to give shifty answers.

QUR'AN says

“Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent example/pattern for him who hopes in Allah and the last day and remembers Allah much” (33:21).

Can you honestly say that ALL that you seek to pattern your life with about the life of Mohamed comes from the Koran?

Therefore, I am not bound by them especially in this day and age of technology where they can easily edit them electronically. So keep your Ibn Ishaq with you, buddy.

Man, is it only electronic copies of these texts that are available today? Do Islamic sites not also have even these electronic copies; can you not trust even those sites? Come on, buddy!

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 12:17am On Sep 13, 2018

Empiree

RESPONSE TO EMPIREE ON QUERY OF ABU AFAK'S STORY (PART 1)
Empiree, I can see that you are willing to go into some detail in order to get to the truth of matters. So, as we look at these issues about the RELIABILITY or otherwise of these Moslem source documents I hope OBJECTIVITY and HONESTY will be expressed.
Now, your contention is simple: Moslems have a methodology they use in ascertaining the trustworthiness of any Islamic historical document. One of these is that there must be a traceable chain of narrators for events or stories to accept them as valid. Other criteria were also stated.
My response:
1. Islam double-speaks on most if not virtually ALL issues.
2. This means Islam can apply double standard as it suits it.
3. Consequently, the same Moslem apologists like yourself who will easily run to Ibn Ishaq’s work that we are looking here when it presents Mohamed in a good light, will almost immediately REJECT him using the “METHODOLOGY” above when he presents Mohamed in a ‘bad’ light.
4. Moslem historians HAD NO REASON to lie against Mohamed. No Moslem writer, at the time these were written, would have wanted to write something about Mohamed that they thought were not genuine. Remember that theses were MOSLEM WRITERS, not non-Moslem writers.
5. Mohamed was in the PLAIN VIEW of history. Because his followers BELIEVED that he was from Allah they simply did not question anything he did. Even in the koran Allah seem to approve of all that Mohamed did. So, the followers and writers NEVER saw these as flaws in Mohamed but as a sign of his DOMINANCE. That was why the usual tendency to cover up a leader’s errors and weaknesses was not done by these writers. If this were not so Moslems who venerated Mohamed so much would have ensured that those negatives about him were erased from history long before now.
6.What we therefore find is that where the story is generally accepted by Moslems, no validity of chain of narrators is challenged. Even from the same source document some things can be picked while others are discarded at will.
7. In the eyes of early followers of Mohamed, who perhaps lived a shielded life from other people groups, whatever his lifestyle was made no difference to them. It was later Moslems who, when now being confronted by other civilizations as to the morality and civility of many of these questionable acts of Mohamed, now felt they needed to find ways out the quagmire Islam has placed itself.
8. If, like the source you pasted said, "the biographies (of Mohamed) contain all kinds of reports, both true and false", who put the "false" there? If this is taken at its face value then can we REALLY trust the entire documents? Should they not all be simply discarded? If documents written closest to Mohamed's time are found wanting can we TRULY trust later Moslems scholars who want to tell us which portion to accept and which not to?

3 Likes 1 Share

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:15am On Sep 12, 2018

DID MOHAMED REFLECT ALLAH'S "MERCY" AND "GRACIOUSNESS" ? (7)

If a man claims to be one thing but his actions REPEATEDLY show him to be the opposite, can that man's words be taken at their face value or the man regarded as genuine? That is the decision each person has to make in the light of all these revelations about the life of Mohamed.

“Abu Afak was one of B. Amr b. Auf of the B. Ubayda clan. He showed his disaffection when the apostle killed al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit… The apostle said, ‘Who will deal with this rascal for me?’ whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf one of the ‘weepers’, went forth and killed him…When Abu Afak had been killed she (Asma b. Marwan) displayed disaffection… When the apostle heard what she had said he said, ‘Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?’ ‘Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he said, ‘You have helped God and His apostle, O ‘Umayr!’ When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, ‘Two goats won’t butt their heads about her,’ so Umayr went back to his people.” (Pages 675-676)

Here are yet two more innocent people who were ordered to be killed by Mohamed. What was their crime? They wrote poetry against him. Yes, that’s right. They dared to write poetry against him! Any wonder then about the reactions of Moslems when cartoonists who draw Mohamed are threatened with death.

Clearly, do these actions portray mercy or graciousness?

Did Mohamed who is said to be "the mercy to all mankind" exhibit mercy in all these instances?

Why is it that Allah, said to be the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful, never prevailed on his prophet to exercise restraints and show mercy?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 11:37am On Sep 10, 2018*

Samunique:
Bros u are wondeful, your scholarly is legendary !!!
I've been following this debate with keen interest and I must confess u and enilove with the other guy plainbibletruth ( I can't remember his moniker precisely ) u've done a very great job here.
thanks so much and God bless all of u !

I'm also a former Muslim, pls I will be very happy if can mail me some ebooks that can be of help to me in dealing with these our brothers, cause I know I av a lot to do that area.

Thanks !!!

These Nairaland threads can be of help too:
1. Who Is This Allah? Pdf Book By G J O Moshay
https://www.nairaland.com/3636456/allah-pdf-book-g-j#53825740

2.Who Is This Allah (chapter 1) By G.J.O MOSHAY
https://www.nairaland.com/2947455/allah-chapter-1-g.j.o-moshay#43120276

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 11:14pm On Sep 09, 2018

Empiree:
So when Jesus return in the Endtime, he is coming to take up his "ayanfe" i:e his loving believers and then fight and kills disobedient disbelievers(muslims)?. This is literal or parable?.

Just to clarify, since you believe muslims don't believe in Jesus as Lord and savior and son of God, that means muslims are non-believers. So what is Jesus gonna do to us when he returns?. To fight and kills us right?. Is that parable or literal?. I ask bcus many christians have said for many yrs that armageddon will come and swept away disbelievers. Is this literal or parable?. If Jesus will cause this great war and affliction to us, we will consider that act of violence against innocent muslim men, women and children. Is this fiction or real?

Empiree, don't get ahead of yourself. Let's put things in perspective. You quoted a single verse in the Bible, and attempted to give it your label without reference to its context.
Nothing in that verse says that Christians today are to take up arms against non-Christians. The same cannot be said about the koranic verses advocating violence against non-Moslems.

Empiree:
I rather ignore you on islamic topic bcus we can dwell on this till eternal. And i dont really blame you bcus you cant differentiate btw God and Jesus. How you can't differentiate btw believe in Allah and His messanger and worship shows your low IQ

How is ALLEGIANCE suddenly means devoted worship is beyond me. By definition of allegiance it means loyalty or commitment. And his companion pledge allegiance to him. Does that mean they worshipped him?.

The statement "Action speaks louder than words" must be familiar to you. Even a low IQ person can see actions that 'say' things that are opposite of what words claim.

A lie told often enough becomes seen as the truth.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:53pm On Sep 09, 2018

Empiree:
So in short, the entire Bible is parable, right?. If your answer is 'yes', then Jesus in the bible doesnt exist. He's just a fiction. Satan is fiction. Dream and vision are fictions. All prophets mentioned in your bible are fictional characters. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all fictional characters who wrote fairy tales. Therefore Bible is fictional book and it is not real. All the so called prophecies are mere fiction. You are very ridiculous.

I can see why many christians turned atheists and called bible fictional Book. Henceforth, I will not take you serious anymore and everything you have been saying in this thread, including God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit bcus they are all fictions. His so called crucifixion and resurrection are fictions too.

The Bible is not real. So why are you wasting ,my time since?

No! My answer is 'No!' The Bible is not all parables. It is clear where it is in parable and clear where it is not.
So,my answer to your question is not 'yes'. Now, where does that leave the rest of your post?

Empiree:
Yes, allegiance of muslims to God and His messanger is affirmation of faith. Worship is when you claim Jesus is God which muslims dont do with Muhammad(p). Your attempt to try to corrupt Shahada in your head is very very idiotic

Thank you for admitting that your devotion is not ONLY to one being BUT two.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 6:50pm On Sep 09, 2018

Empiree:
Am i surprised?. Every verse that you guys are not comfortable with is always "parable". I wonder why "son of God" is not parable?. Why Jesus is not parable?. Hell and Heaven, i wonder why they arent parables?. Every good word and good things are literal except when it is nasty and violent by nature, it becomes "parable". You are fantastic. So why not apply this same parable to the hadith quoted by your brother?. Why are you being deceitful?.

You like analogies.
Now, if a writer tells you he is writing a 'fiction' would you be right in arguing that you want to see the material as a 'non-fiction'?
If the Bible says something is a 'parable' why would you want to insist that you want to see it as literal?

Show us where a parable has been CLEARLY stated as being a parable in the koran and we have taken it as literal;then we would admit we were wrong but wanting to compare different issues and claim that they are on the same level just doesn't make for honest scholarship.

Empiree:
Dont even go there...You are having billions of problems in your bible that you failed to convince me and you wanna talk abnout Quran?. What do you understand about "partner with Allah"?. In Islamic terminology it is called 'shirk'. So how is mentioning muhammad's name next to Allah constitute "partner" with Allah?.

Let's go to Quran and let me quote at least 3 verses where Allah mentioned His name and Muhammad simultaneously

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger..." 4:59

"Say: If your fathers, and your sons, and your brethren, and your wives, and your tribe, and the wealth ye have acquired, and merchandise for which ye fear that there will no sale, and dwellings ye desire are dearer to you than Allah and His messenger..." Q9:24

"You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger,.." Q58:22

See these verses of Quran, God mentioned His Name with His messanger (Muhammad). So this is setting up partner with God?. You definitely don't know what you are saying.

So, do you agree that your ALLEGIANCE as a moslem is BOTH to Allah and Mohamed?

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 5:50pm On Sep 09, 2018

Empiree:
Jesus said in Luke 19:27

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Just has the Hadith you quoted is literal, this Bible verse is literal. There is nothing metaphorical about it at all. It is direct because you believe that Jesus is coming back to take the believers (Christians) to heaven, and fight and kill non-believers (Muslims).

But if you reject this explaination, I will ask you if Luke 19:27 is past tense, present tense or future tense?

What is Jesus coming back to do?. Is he going to love his enemies and take them too to paradise or fight and kill them for not believing in him as Son of God according to your belief?.

It's EITHER that you're being outrightly deceitful OR you simply need basic tutorials in English language.

That portion of Luke 19 started from verse 11.
There it is stated CLEARLY that Jesus was speaking in parable.
"... he (JESUS ) went on to tell them a parable. ..."

What is literal here?

If can't simply explain your koran or hadith to enquirers doesn't that show you guys that you have a problem?

You danced round the shahada and now this.
In the shahada Moslems have turned Mohamed into an associate or partner with Allah. This violates several portions of the koran.

The koran asks Moslems to invoke NO ONE along with Allah.

The koran tells us that there were other prophets and messengers of Allah. Why this special identification of ONLY Mohamed with Allah all the time?

Islam is really the religion of submitting to Allah AND Mohamed and majority of Moslems are actually Mohamedans, i.e. those who worship Mohamed, whether they admit it or not.

So can it be said that Islam, as it is today, is strictly a monotheistic religion?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 5:37pm On Sep 09, 2018

OLUWABIG:
@ plainbibletruth you don't even need to struggle with them we all know that Islam is a failed Catholic experiment

Thanks.

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 8:15am On Sep 08, 2018

Empiree:
You mean to tell me you typed this trash just because you can not say La ilaha ila Allah Even arab christians used Allah in their daily activities. You are the jokest man of the century You are incredible. I have nothing to explain cuz we will be here till eternal. You understood perfectly well what you are doing. I dont live on NL. I have pretty much important things to take care of

It unfortunate!

It's either that you don't know Allah well enough to talk about him and answer questions regarding him or you're afraid.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment." 1 John 4: 18

"... God is love." 1 John 4: 8

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 2:17pm On Sep 07, 2018*

Empiree:
Allah means God. So, now say "There is no deities worthy of worship except God ", say it

The name Allah was in existence long before Islam. That is evidenced from the name Abdullah (meaning servant of Allah) - the name of Mohamed's father. The question is this: To whom was this
name originally revealed?

That it is Arabic is not in question.

Mohamed wanted to unite the Arab race under a theocratic setting, but there was no way he could carry along all those 360 idols, so Mohamed decided to pick from among the idols of his clan. Naturally he picked Allah, the idol for which his father was named. Any of the idols would have served;

Mohamed could just as easily have picked Manaf, Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, or any of the others; and his choice didn't win the support of everyone, including his uncle, Abdul Manaf. That is clear from the fact that Abdul didn't submit to Allah and Islam until his death. He held on to Manaf

In the shahada Mohamed was calling on people to reject all other gods but the one named Allah.

So, Allah was not a "new" god that Mohamed was presenting to his people and others.

Therefore, was the Koranic concept of Allah a continuation of the pre-Islamic one, or did the former represent a complete break with the latter? Were there some essential-not accidental-ties between the two concepts signified by one and the same name? Or was it a simple matter of a common word used for two different objects?

In the mind of moslems, anything (negative or positive) done to further the cause of Islam is justifiable, so your asking me to say your creed feels okay by you. The issue however is honesty and not deception or triviality.

A religion where INTEGRITY means nothing is not worth its salt.

Let's seek the truth of this matter.
“It is better to be divided by truth than united in error.”

Is Allah Yahweh? Is Allah Jehovah?

Does Allah save from sin?

Is Allah the Father of the Son - Jesus Christ?

Your honest answers please!

"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23 NIV)

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 10:46am On Sep 07, 2018

Empiree:
stop wasting your time. Say what I asked you to say, La ilaha ila Allah, if truly you believe in Allah, simple.

Even when you have not CLEARLY told me who this Allah is?

Even when you have not clarified if there is a word for "god" or "God" in the Arabic apart from the name Allah?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 7:49am On Sep 07, 2018

Empiree:
okay, say la ilaha ila Allah. Can you?
Also it is God not god

So, The word "god" in Arabic is different from "Allah"?

That means "Allah" is the personal name of Mohamed's and Arabian god; doesn't it?

There is a word for "god" or "God" in the Arabic!
And, that word is not Allah! RIGHT?

Christianity Etc › Re: WHAT CHRISTIANS MUST KNOW ABOUT ISLAM by plainbibletruth(op): 9:59pm On Sep 06, 2018

Empiree:
Question is, do you believe in Allah?. If you can answer this them I will answer your question.

I believe Allah is a god.
Now, answer my questions like you said you would.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (of 29 pages)