₦airaland Forum

true2god: Ignorace? Do u knw the meaning? I hav studied with JW and i believed u knw im not ignorant.

U r just kidding here.

E vex you? ok pardon moi haha...
But you have not don anything with those verses i presented to our broda Chukwudi44, and Frosbel. Dont you imagine who this powerful angel the bears God`s name was? In the OT he called Himself <Wonderful> and Isaiah told us a child will be born, and that He will be called <wonderful> We kw this is Christ, now are two bearing this name? i will reqoute you these scriptures so u can help us out. Who was this ANGEL Yahweh sent and gave him authourity not to pardon the Israelites if they transsgresse during the crossing from Egypt?. My arguement is not from the JW`s view. I find out from the Scripture that, Christ existed before He was born. And the Scripture did not teach in the OT or NT two <2> GOD but one. So, What did Christ existed as, when he was with Yahweh? is He not that great ★Angel★ the OT has been pointing at? {Angel} of ☆YAHWEH`s☆ presence that saved, redeemed Israel. bear in mind, i reapeat, i`m not here to defend any church doctrine, i just find out some biblical passages that needs to be treated. I was glad when this thread was raised. so can you start with just this few questions,i will have more scripture to show you, and how Christ will again bear a new name that no one knows only Him. Thank you.

Ubenedictus: didn't u notice dat that explanation was rejected some post ago?

Rejected by who, he who is most perfect in interpreting Rev? i didn`t notice that anyway!

This man na sport prophet e be? we no see him type for bible days ooo, i wonder what football got to do with God`s coming kingdom!

truthislight: and where are the scriptural proof that you have to give him this absolute advice?

Ok, you have died befor and come back abi?

Even if you said that you have died befor how can one verify that you are saying the truth?

The rich man and lazarus was a perable.

The book of "truth" the bible contain account of people that died and came back to life but the resurrected dead did not relate any experience about any thing they experience at death, was it an omission?

How then can you come to an open forum and start shouting such kind advice?

Best you can do is state your proof from the bible since you are a christian and if he has any he will also tender it, but you said you dont want a debate because you believe every thing you hear as factual.
*sigh*
presumptiouseness.

That is why people run from one witch doctor to another because of fear of the dead,
"know the truth and the truth will set you free"

You have not been hearing all the rumour of people that died and came bk to earth? As the bible ressurrected figures did not give us details of what hell and heaven llok like, let those that saw Pope & Michael Jackson tell us some beautiful nonsense unscriptural stories!

italo: May I also ask you to go to God in prayer concerning your stand about The Catholic Church?

Ahhh....this prayer concern plenty people ooo, @popeitalo don show hahaha....

Reyginus: He did all this in a polite way. There was no force. Only, I sensed a preconceived hate.

You did not see what i saw and i didn`t sense what you sensed. Needless to argue on this, case close, now bk to the thread...

pastormustwacc: Yes, all these were what made me talk, ordinarily, i would have walked away peacefully. I hate people that try to force their beliefs on others, it is a very wrong thing to do, no matter how right you are.

Thats was my point, she/he made it clear that they have had several arguements on this same issue, So her final advice is to treaten Frosbel that He will not be saved if he do not refrain. But he/she presented this in a polite manner hahaha.....!!! Anyway, we are not free from mistakes either.

truthislight: when i had said "your limitation" in my last post i never knew how limited in knowledge you are and i never knew how right i was until this your post.

See what you said :



now what has Yahweh's holy angels done wrong that they need to be judge? Nothing!

And the judgement awaiting angels is not for them since they have been with the archangel in battling satan and will come with christ to execute Yahweh's judgement at the end. Rev. 12 and Rev. 19:11 down.

The truth is, the angels that will be judge are the fallen angels that are now called demons.

This are the angels that foresook their original position and came to earth to take up the daughters of men as wives in Noah's day, and dematerialise during the flood to head back to heaven but were bared from entering heaven and left in tatarus.

You see your life? You are finished, completely misled and now a novice of what Yahweh's plans are.

Now you need my sympathy cus it is not a deliberate action but an action driven by ignorance that is blinding you from the truth of God's word.

Do you now see why you should cool down and read the bible and not just follow the lies that has been fed you all along?

Well, you can either take my advice or you continue with this folly.

Anyway, it was good that you spoke out, if not, how will we have come to know the fraud that you had taken in all this while?

Another fraud you need to run from is the trinity.
Anyway, keep reading the bible.
Peace.

This is pure ignorance and pride. He has first refuse to here out @Oahray, pressing to prove he love Jesus more than anyone does by ending up in errors.

Oahray: #smh... Maybe I should stop.
@true2god, the reason for threads like this is not to win arguments or make yourself the sole righteous person there is. There are people out there who hunger for the truth. Its as simple as stating your beliefs with bible backing. The Bible is the authority, not any church. At least the Jehovah's witnesses show you from the Bible. Do you bother to listen and reason from the Bible? No. Because you have your mind all made up already.
For once in a thread, I thought I was dealing with people mature enough to consider evidence before ranting away in a show of fanaticism. I was wrong. I guess I just do that some other time, or in another thread, as my reason for contributing isnt simply to win any argument.
Any lover of truth will examine his beliefs carefully.
Peace.

It is better not to listen to unserious fellow, this is a public forum, many are open to learn/know new things. you cannot stop Gods work because someone provoked you! you are on point with ur definitions, please continue from were you stoped. We are following up. God bless!

true2god: I hope u read my post before commenting. Nowhere in the new testament the bible writers of matthew, mark, luke John and the apostles who wrote the epistles made reference to Jesus as as arch angel Michael. Non and nowhere. Any contrary doctrine is a straw man doctrin trying to shift the person of Jesus to an angel. Do u knw that human beings will judge angels, includin arch angel Michael, on the last day (1 cor 6:3)? It is in the scriptures.

In order word humans bein will Judge Jesus also,a.k.a, your angel Michael. Do u knw that human beings are related equal with angels? Where do u get ur doctrines and who is feeding u lies without questioning?

Wat u guys are sayin (callin Jesus angel michael) is not differnt frm one yoruba man callin His jesus 'Jesu oyingbo'. If your Jesus, watchtower Jesus, is angel Michael den the Jesus u r servin is like 'jesu oyingbo', which is quite different from my Jesus.

My Jesus is:
1) the mighty God, Isaiah 9:6
2) the prince of peace, Isaiah 9:6
3) the everlastin father, isaiah 9:6
4) the alpha and omega, rev 1:17-20
5) the Word made flesh, John 1:14
6) the creator, John 1:10
7) the Lion of the tribe of Judah
the root and offspring of David
9) the bright and morning star
10) the great teacher
11) the express image of the father
12) the 'son of God'
13) the future judge of the world
14) the image of the invisible God and the 1st born of all creation, colosian 1:15
15) God manifestation in the flesh, 1timothy 3:16.
16) Emmanuel, God be with us
17) the savior of man-kind from sin
18) the way, the truth and the life
19) the one in whose name all knee must bow
20) the baptizer with the Holy spirit, John baptizes with water.

If your Jesus does not meet any of these basic requirement den it is quite obvios that the Jesus watch-tower, or u ,is preachin is different from the Jesus of the Bible. And frm my observation, usin this thread it is now clearer that Jesus of the christians is differnet from Jesus of the Jehova's witnessses. Cos Jesus of the Jehova witness is arch angel Michael while the Jesus of the christians is the alpha and omega, the first and last, the prince of peace, the everlastin father and the mighty God (Isiaiah 9:6).

Just see how you dey display ur ignorance, are you scared of knowing the truth? if no, then hear others out. You are missing up things yourself just listen to the ♪ till the end if u want to get the message!

Reyginus: Where is the use of force?

According to the bolds, the OP displayed it. Trying to impose/press @Frosbel against his belief.
But the beginning and the end part of the letter made sense.

alexleo: My dear brother in Jesus Christ,
Having been following some of your posts here, i wish to commend your love for our Lord Jesus Christ whom i also love so much. This short letter has become neccessary because i see that you seek the truth of God's word. However, i wish to advice that you go to God in prayer concerning your stand about life after death. God supports his words with testimonies. Today we believr that God perform miracles still as he did in the bible times because we witness such miracles in our lives and around us. Likewise, testimonies abound from all corners of the world about sinners going to hell when they die and children of God going to heaven or paradise as recorded in the case of the rich man and Lazarus. Most of the people who have had this experiences are not christians. Some were muslims, hindus, atheists etc. who later converted to Jesus Christ after the experience. My brother pls pray for God to guide you more on this mstter so as not to be seen by God as one who is diluting the word of God. Am not here for argument because we ve had enough of it here. i dont believe these testmonies from all parts of the world are not true. What has anybody to gain if he believes there is no such thing only to find out that there is when he dies? Pls pray for guidance from God to avoid being misled or you misleading others. You know what it means at the judgment throne.
I also want to use this medium to say am sorry in whatever way i have insulted you here. Forgive me pls. This also goes to any other person i have offended here. Pls forgive me
.

Ubenedictus: sorry lad, my bible never once said Jesus is an angel. Man u are on ur own, besides if d other princes arent our servants like michael, wu are they?

I have already posted this answer you can scroll back. You have skiped several questions that you fail to treat.
These verses: (Judges 13:15-23 and Isaiah 9:6) and some others. Please do if you can.

Ubenedictus: one doesn't need to believe the trinity to know that Jesus is michael all you need is heb 1, it clearly shows Jesus isnt an angel, d father neither address him as angel in heb, and i can't find the been stated implicitly in scriptures what i see in heb convinces me that Jesus isn't an angel.
Anyway you are entitled to your opinion! I'm more suprised that all the early xtians even the heretics believe Jesus was not an angel! Again u are entitled to your opinion

Before the book of Hebrew, were there not older book that spoke about Christ, even if the name Jesus was not mentioned?
keep blind eyes of the OT and then suite yourself with pretence by jumping to the NT.

Boomark: @plappy

v7 shows that it was Isaiah speaking.

v8 For He said, "Surely they are My
people, Children who will not lie."
So He became their Savior.

who is the one that said this and became their saviour? Is it the angel? I don't think so. Angels command and protect the people of God.

v9 if you read from v1, you will understand that God is the one who has trodden down the people in His anger, He is the One who is afflicted by the affliction of His people.

If God does not want to save them, He will not send the angel of HIS presence to save them. No one loves these people like God does. In His love and pity, He repurchased/redeemed them.

If you read v10 down, you will see how it is making reference to the Father not the angel.

My brother you are on point, but you did not code my target. Sure i did read it from au debut and I did know It was Isaiah
talking, and that It was Yahweh that trod down in anger. (Isaiah 51:17,isaiah 34:5)surport this also.

My point is that, "the Angel of His presence" is referred to the Messiah!
He was the one that saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.

This Angel is the Christ of the NT, it has always been Jesus all along who has led God's people, even through all the days of old.

pastormustwacc: @Op, are you a lawyer? why are you giving unsolicited advice? Dont you know it is rude to give unwanted advice in the public? Didt your ma teach you all that? This is upsetting! [b] You should thank your stars the letter was not directed at me. [\b] .

Na so you hash...

@0P, honestly this shouldn`t have been said in public. And beside, you can`t force others to believe what they do not believe.

truthislight: when you were debating with the trinitarians who said that jesus and Yahweh are the same cus Jesus receives worship you are said that it was honor but now you are no longer saying it is honor that Jesus receives but worship since he is said to be archangel michael, this turn around is because of your agenda here that jesus never preexisted.

Did you see how you have turned to a doubled aged sword?

Are you really an honest person in doing this?

Watch it!

We should say the truth all the time and stand by it, God hate liars.

You can have two mouth as it suit you.

It is either Jesus receives worship equal as Yahweh or he does not, debate or no debate, stand and be consistent.





meanwhile, can you tell me who the person that Joshua worship is?

Please answer this question, dont dodge it and come later to post same thing in the future.

Peace

Our broda Frosbel is becoming so confused

frosbel: The bible nowhere says that JESUS pre-existed.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
all ate the same spiritual food,
and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Who is this Spiritual Rock in this Historic event? Did you read that Paul wrote that Rock WAS CHRIST?

[size=14pt]Now, in Revelation 19 notice the interesting change in the leader of the armies of heaven. Michael will be called by a different name;[/size]

Rev 19:11-14)Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse.
And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

Can we see in verse 13 that it is The Word of God who leads the armies of heaven? See:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So, the Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is leading the armies of heaven!

Befor in Rev 12 we saw that it was Michael who was leding the army of angels. Now in Revelation 19 it is Jesus. Why the change?

Things have changed. Jesus now has aspects of Himself that did not even exist before He cam to the earth.
Christ is now called by a new name which no one knows:

Revelation 3:12 "And I will write on him My new name." and in
Revelation 19:12 "He had a name written that no one knew except Himself."

His description is also changed. he is now called "Faithful and True"
Revelation 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

And His robe is dipped in blood. This is indeed Jesus, nd He is identified in a way tht reflects what He has done for us.

frosbel: If Jesus Christ is an angel, then you are worshipping an angel.

Bros Frosbel, should i also tell you that you are worshiping a different Jesus?
The Jesus of the Bible pre-existed, but the one you are worshiping did not, how about that?

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11.

ijawkid: wasnt Jesus also a minister and a messanger of GOD??,....if i dey lie correct me......

Jesus is the number 1 messanger of GOD....Jesus is a morning star and the most holy servant of GOD...i dey lie??

its like the word or title angel is the problem here....

all angels are spirit ''sons'' of GOD....Jesus is the first born Son.....they are all sons but Jesus is the FIRST.....

Exactly what i noticed, because all scriptures i presented shows the Angel there is one particular Angel that play role others can't play.
And the NT made it clear that these roles are Christ roles.

Nothing is too small in terms of need, i trust my christian brethren won't let you down at a time like this.

God is with you brother!

soccerinfo9ja: Haha ok maybe i went too far with the atheist "thing" but i know the so called christians do too much to make people follow them. Na force

A christian should not in anyway force the Gospel of Christ in you, He/she can talk to you about the Gospel, it is the Holy Spirit that does the convertion.
If you did not Get the message, needless for the person to insist. That is wrong!

frosbel: Jesus Christ is not Angel Michael , no matter how you try to twist the bible.

We do not worship angels , we worship Yahweh and Jesus Christ his SON.

Did i tell you i worship Angel? do you think you love Christ more than others by rejecting His pre-existance?
You could do best by telling the house that Paul and Isaiah and God made mistakes, I did not twist anything, i presented you the
Scripture. Didn't the Bible taught Jesus pre-exixtance and yet you denied it You want others to follow ur interpretations by going against what the Scripture plainlly teaches!

Disprove those Scriptures with scripture please, i am not through yet, i have other scripture you will have to disprove on this same subject.

Goshen360: Definition of Biblical Types:

[size=14pt] A type is a preordained representation wherein certain persons, events, and institutions of the O.T. stand for corresponding persons, events, and institutions of the N.T. Types are pictures or object lessons by which God has taught and/or hidden His redemptive plan. [/size] They are a shadow of things to come, not the image of those things (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5; 10:1). The Mosaic system, for example, was a kind of kindergarten in which God's people were trained in divine things and taught to look forward to the realities of things yet to come.

For the purpose of edification for the saints of God, there are four (4) classes of biblical types and shadow:

A. Typical Persons:

1. Adam was a type of Christ who was yet to come (Rom. 5:12-21; 2 Cor. 15:45-49).

2. Melchizedek was a type of the eternal priesthood of Christ (Gen. 14:18-24; Heb. 5:5-9; 6:20; 7:1-10, 17); a type of combined kingship and priesthood (Heb. 7:1-3 with Zech. 6:12-13); and a type of eternal existence (Heb. 7:3, 6 with Mic. 5:1-2; Jn. 1:1-3; Heb. 1:.

3. Abraham offering up his only promised son was a type of God offering His only begotten Son (Gen. 22; Jn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17-19).

4. Isaac was a type of the resurrection of Christ (Gen. 22; Heb. 11:19).

5. Moses was a type of Christ as the prophet of God (Dt. 18:15-19; Acts 3:19-26), and of faithfulness (Heb. 3:1-6).

6. Aaron was a type of the high priesthood of Christ (Heb. 5:1-5).

7. Jonah was a type of the death, burial, dissension (into the lower parts of the earth for three days), and resurrection of Christ (Jonah 2; Mt. 12:40; Eph.4:8-10).


B. Typical Events:

1. Some of the events during Israel's wandering in the wilderness were typical of things Christians would face (2 Cor. 10:1-13).

2. The lifting up of the brazen serpent in the wilderness was typical of the crucifixion of Christ and benefits of the cross to be realized by others (Jn. 3:14; Num. 21).

C. Typical Acts:

1. Smiting the rock as in Ex. 17 was typical of Christ being crucified or smitten for men (2 Cor. 10:4).

2. Smiting the rock the second time instead of speaking to it was typical of crucifying Christ afresh (Num. 20; 2 Cor. 10:4; Heb. 6:6).

3. Rejecting the chief cornerstone was typical of the rejection of Christ (Isa. 28:16; Mt. 21:42).

4. The many acts of the priests in the tabernacle worship were typical of various aspects of redemption through Christ: killing animals; shedding and sprinkling blood; burning incense; the showbread; lighting lamps; and the daily and yearly rituals were all typical acts, fulfilled in Christ and His redemptive work (Heb. 7:11-28; 8:1-6; 9:1-28; 10:1-22).

D. Typical Institutions:

1. The whole Mosaic institution of offerings and worship was typical of things to come in the sacrifice and redemptive work of Christ and the worship of God in the true way (Ex. 12-13; 25:1 - 40:38; Heb. 7-10).

2. The Aaronic priesthood, the garments of the priests, and other aspects of the ministry of the law were typical of Christ and His redemptive work (Ex. 28-29; Heb. 7-10).

3. The Sabbath for Israel was typical of the eternal rest in Christ and of that which is to come for all the redeemed (Ex. 20:8-11; 31:12-18; Dt. 5:15; Heb. 4).

4. The feasts of Israel were typical of various aspects of redemption through Christ (Ex. 12; Lev. 23; 2 Cor. 5:7; Heb. 5-10).

5. The temple and all the rituals of worship carried on in it were typical of the same things the tabernacle and its worship were typical of.

6. The tabernacle and temple, their compartments, and furniture were themselves typical of the heavenly tabernacle Christ entered into (Heb. 8:1-5; 9:1-10, 23-24).

Hence, we understand that Melchizedek was a type and shadow of Christ in the “order” of his “king and priest” not in the “person” of Melchizedek himself. If Christ is Melchizedek, it will mean that Christ was a type of himself and scriptures does not teach such. It will also mean Christ lived historically before he was born of a virgin birth. Some also teach that Melchizedek is Shem, such teaching is error because the scripture records the genealogy of Shem but the scripture did not record the genealogy of the historic Melchizedek hence Melchizedek is NOT Shem.

My broda tell them jare....alot of Christians will not look at things from the OT, they just read a passage from the NT...GBAM, they will conclude!

Things cannot be properly understood that way!

ujchief: @Goshen,
all these long gramer and fancy diagrams just to justify ur non-tithing?
When Christ departed, He comanded his disciples to stay in Jesusalem, He will send them the Holy spirit who will 'teach them all things'.
I believe in the holy spirit, he teaches us all things. Thus i refrain from arguments and vain talks that dont edify me. Let the holy spirit teach u all things.
I'm a tither and a partner of the gospel. Partnership wasnt defined in the bible, but seeing the need to establish God's kingdom on earth by spreading the gospel, i had to partner to make it work, thats the work of the holy spirit, teaching u all things!

Don't you have the Holy spirit and yet you still go to church to hear from your pastor? You should have study
your bible and allow the Holy spirit to minister to you. What your Pastor is doing in the service is
not different from what bros....Goshen360 is doing here, abi na because say na through internet?

pastormustwacc: ^^^You are getting me wrong, i already know my own belief, and the outcome of this thread and all the talks do not affect my belief in any way. As the thread poster, i should not take sides (for reasons best known to me) - i dont force my beliefs on anyone, you should have noticed that about me.

But you can also qoute the bible wrong with your belief? even if you do not take any side, qoute these scriptures wrong, i have more scriptures to present to you people. The bible is the only thing doing the interpretation here. The OT tells you what the NT means. Not just read the NT and have a conclusion.

chukwudi44: It is quite amazing you call yourself a xtian when you cannot yet make up your mind about whom Jesus is.

This is where you miss it all, who Jesus is, is not my arguement, I posted numerous OT verses that shows who He was before He came to earth you are yet to refute them yet twisting that we/i do not know who Jesus is? Of course Jesus is the Son of God, He is our Savoir, The messaiah, He is not God/Yahweh himself because He said So. I believe in His pre-existance because He also said so. What He was before He was born is what i have been presenting to the house since morning, no one could refutes those scriptures. You have skiped several questions i asked you, does that means you have no answer to them? scroll back and answer please. You should tell Us who that great prince of the OT is, who was the angel that "bears Gods name? that has the authourity not to perdon trasgression, the one that God sent with the Israelites that Paul reffered to as "Christ", who was Isaiah calling the Angel of His presence that redemeemed,saved, protect and also known to be the savior of the Israelites, who is the Anger that is called "WONDERFUL" in the OT and in the NT? My brother who is this Great Prince?

[quote author=Atheist:-D]^^^^

Unfortunstely the suya drama became global news. I read about it on bbc's website :Really? i thought it was a joke

How do you think foreign countries view such news and the inhabitants of such countries? :That is very shameful indeed!

In regards to the mother issue. I do not believe she spiritually killed the child. What if the child died of food poisoning (the child would have died regardless of her curses). What if the child died of other unrelated issues. You are right, but now that she has altered her words, she cannot swallow it, she has condenmed herself with her mouth.

Also, as a nation and group of people we need to step away from this darkness due to silly, pointless and unrealistic beliefs. How can we ever develop if we sre scared of every little penny on the floor and unknown phone call. The rate of evil demostrations in Nigeria is increasing, that why some people are so scared of everything. Bit this is because they lack spriritual protection too.[/quote]

Oh NIGERIA, what is happening to you
So no security or amblance were avialable at the right time they were needed most?
Nigeria government is a total disgrace.

[quote author=code_0]Did you hear the News? Just saw it ΐϞ one of τ̲̅ђe online media network too!!! We as Christians should stop using the word "Lol" as it originated from the Devil worshippers Α̲̅πϑ they become happy seeing τ̲̅ђe world using it because when they pray they say "Lucifer our Lord" in short "Lol" so they think we are saying the same thing as them as τ̲̅ђey gave it τ̲̅ȍ τ̲̅ђe world, so a piece of advice,don't use Lol ever again Please. its for your own safety. You may ßε̲̣ worshipping τ̲̅ђe devil unknowingly.
John8:32 says "Α̲̅πϑ ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" D̶̲̥̅̊☺̣̣̥̇ŋ't hide τ̲̅ђe truth from others,Ɣøû know ђã†̥ τ̲̅ȍ do.[/quote]Na waoo, i do use it without adding any spiritual meaning to it. Wonders shall never end, so what media published this? and why should it be exposed?
Just wondering

[quote author=bbpreye.] The "the mother of Jesus" or the "earthly mother of Jesus", so Joseph should now be called the father of Jesus or "earthly father of Jesus"?

If Mary is the mother of Jesus as u catholics call her instead of the earthly mother, does it mean she is the wife of God? Cos I know my Jesus is the son of God! The earlier you know the truth, the better for you guys!

secondly, praying with beads, bowing down to images, purgatory and so on, did Jesus teach you any of those? Or did Mary teach you any of those? Where did they come from?

We are all men, only God knows the truth. Let's ask the Holy spirit to open our eyes to know the truth instead of saying and believing what we don't know.

I believe in God and the trinity! Nothing will change that.

Italo take note..[/quote]You are not even getting it, they said MARY is the mother of GOD. "HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD PRAY FOR US SINNER ETC ETC" this is thier Prayer