₦airaland Forum

chukwudi44: You idiotic monkey why don't you quote that passage and show me where he was described as an angel.

truthislight: she has made nothing up but rather stated the truth.

you liar twisting the bible have the mouth to tell someone to stop making things up

You should better change you ways and drop this lying you carry you and your mother RCC.

sunkoye: Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe God came from heaven to earth, yet they cannot deny someone came down. So they shift the identity of the one who ascended to an arch angel, Michael. Jesus is supposedly Michael because his name means ‘who is like God. "It proves Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ. The very name Michael means who is like God and indicates Jehovah God is without like or equal." (New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-31). Jesus is actually the incarnation of Michael the Arch angel and resumed the name when he ascended into heaven ( ibid. pg.30 Your will be done on earth pg.316 )

If one investigates church history not even the Arians who started the idea Jesus was a created being with divine qualities believed he was an angel. No one in the church history (at least of any influence, good or bad) has ever presented Jesus as Michael the arch angel.

They believe Jesus is a mighty God and Jehovah is the almighty. That's two Gods, this is not monotheism. Then what of the angel Gabriel that also means mighty like God does this make him Jesus too? Where is Michael now since the resurrection has not occurred and Michael fights before it in Dan.12. Yet he is Jesus. Whose name is above all names forever. Did the angel Michael incarnate to die for our sins?

What about Micah whose name means who is like Jehovah. The names don’t give a parallel but beg a question. Who is like God? Obviously no one. If Jesus is Michael than who are the other angels? Are they God too. Since he is only one of the chief princes. Doesn’t this destroy being the only begotten son since, he the son before he incarnated?

The Jehovah witnesses say "Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael is applied to God’s son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ." (Aid to bible understanding)

"Michael the Archangel, the first creation of Jehovah, before He came to earth and returned to the identity of Michael after his resurrection." (Aid To Bible Understanding, p. 1152).

The Watchtower teaches that Jehovah, the Father only created only one thing directly, the Logos, or Jesus. It was Jesus according to the Watchtower who created "all other things" (Colossians 1:16 NWT; Insight, Vol. 1, p. 527).

So then who is the creator of all? JESUS. But according to them He's not God.

We find the Bible contradicts the Watchtower interpretation in Isa.44:24 "I am the Lord who makes all things…""who has made the earth, and has created even man upon it...and who stretched out the heavens..."Jehovah. Is. 45:12. Do you see the predicament they are in?

I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth and my own right hand extended out the heavens Is. 48:12,13

What ever happened to in the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth? It should read in the beginning Michael the Arch angel created the earth!

"In the Greek Bible text the Word is Logos. Hence he may be called the `Word or Logos'. Being a mighty one and holding this high official capacity as Logos and being before all other creatures, he was a God, but not the Almighty God, who is Jehovah," (1952 Revised ed., p. 33).

"in due time God exalted Jesus to the highest position a creature could be given." (Awake 9/22/1959, p. 7)

"Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God." (Watchtower 7/15/1898, p. 2337)

Thus Jesus, a creature, is defined by the Jehovah's Witnesses as a God. the question arises, is Jesus a true God or a false God? Since we have two Gods in Jn.1:1.

"But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god," (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985 ed., p. 413).

"Michael the Archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ. That Jehovah directly created only one thing, Michael the arch angel and that Michael created all other things." (United in Worship p.29)

Rev.4:11 "you are worthy O Lord to receive glory honor and power, for you created all things and by your will they exist and were created". Are Jehovah's Witnesses saying this is Jesus?

there predicament is to explain away their own writings."He, being the Creator, existed before any other gods, and all false gods will be wiped out so that there will be none existing after him," (Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 665-666; emphasis mine). Exactly so if he is the true God that makes him… "The one and only true God is Jehovah."(WT 3/1/1959, p. 150)

Jeremiah who was a reliable prophet (not like the WT) says in Jer.10:11 "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth..." Doesn’t this make Jesus Jehovah ? Remember they have said the only true God is Jehovah! Then what are they to do with Jesus who is called creator and "a god", is he to be eliminated with all the rest. That's a problem if you have two Gods even if one is almighty and the other mighty.What of the Father? If he did not make the heavens and the earth he too will perish !

Isaiah 43:10: "No God was formed before me, nor will be after me. I, I am Jehovah, and there is no other Savior but me." Isn’t Jesus the savior? God knows of no other Gods yet Jesus is another God.

Isaiah 44:6: "I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5, 6: "I am Jehovah and there is no other, there is no other God except me. (this means mighty also) Though you do not know me, I have armed you so that it may be known from east to west that there is no one except me. I am Jehovah and there is no other."

Isaiah 46:9: "for I am God and there is no other."No God spelled with a big G or little g. Any man or spirit being that is called "god" cannot be the true Deity. All others called "god" are false deity.

For John to have called Jesus "a god" in John 1:1 and meant him to be another true God, a mighty God alongside the almighty would go against everything in the monotheistic teaching of Judaism. The same goes for Thomas calling Jesus "my God" in John 20:28. ln their own publication… Thomas said to him: 'My Lord and my God!'-John 20:28" (Greek Interlinear reading, literally: "The Lord of me and the God of me!" Their own Greek Interlinear shows ho theos. (INTERLINEAR 1985, p. 513)

This is polytheism, more than one god and worse yet they have an angel exalted as "a god." It does not matter if they worship him or not , they call him a god and creator. Jeremiah a reliable prophet said in chpt.10 v.11 "the Gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish…" Then what are they to do with Jesus who is called creator and "a god", is he to be eliminated with all the rest. That's the problem when you have two gods even if one is almighty and the other mighty. What of the Father? According to them he only created one thing, Jesus the angel. If he did not make the heavens and the earth he too will perish! So if Jesus who is called "a god" did not create it all, he goes the away with the rest of the false gods. This isn’t my opinion but Gods!

If Jesus had been claiming to be only "a god" as J.W.'s teach, then He would not have been charged with "blasphemy" as in Jn 10:30 when they tried to stone Him for He made himself to be equal to God. Not another God, but claiming to be united with the one God, as the Greek language bears this saying "we are one"- in nature.

Yet the whole church believed him to be God. in Mt.16:16 He says, "I will build MY church" not Jehovah's.

Acts 20:28, Paul tells the elders, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of GOD, which HE PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD." Whose church is the Jehovah Witnesses? If not Jesus then they were not purchased with his blood and are not Christians, there is only one church body, it is his. ( they readily admit only 144,000 are purchased with the blood of this angel named Jesus.)

"There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307)

…"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself Dan.12:1" (WT 12/15/1984 p29)

Col.2:9-10 "The fullness of deity dwells bodily in Christ, the Colossians had previously come to a fullness of life in Him who is the head of all rule and authority. "Head" means supreme "authority," "Principality and powers" is a reference to the highest rankings of angelic beings he Christ being over them all. Which means he is not in the same rank or species as an angel. Neither could he be the archangel which would still have him be in the order of a created being.

Heb.1:4 "having become so much better than the angels." How by nature? NO, by exaltation at the resurrection- returning to his former position. How can he be better than angels if he is an angel? He already was better in nature before his incarnation as the very one who created all the angels. (Col.1:14-17, Jn.1:3).

Heb.1:5 "For to which of the angels did he ever say "you are my Son today I have begotten you" The answer is none of them! Here the writer is proclaiming the Son as superior to angels. Angels who are the greatest of Gods creation and the Son is better vs.4 How? Because he as the Son is of the same nature as his Father.

Heb.1:6 The Father tells all the angels to worship the son. According to J.W’s they are not worshipping him but only giving obeisance. If this is true than the Father only gets obeisance also, since it is the very same word used to worship the Father.

Heb. 1:8 God the Father says to the Son "your throne O’ God is forever and ever." J.W’s change this to God is your throne. So instead of having the son God they now made an inanimate object God. The lengths they go to prove their false view.

V.10 the Father still speaking to the Son "and you, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the Earth and the heavens are the work of your hands..." The Father calls the Son Jehovah and says he was present as the architect of both heaven and earth.

They agree that he created all things but they disagree with God who calls the son Jehovah!

In Jn.5:31 Jesus is making a point to the religious leaders that the father has sent him and he is the perfect example of the fathers nature. In v.39 he states "you search the Scripture for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of me, In Lk.24 :25-27 after the resurrection he expounds of all that is in the scriptures from Moses through the prophets that are written of him. "Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Are we to believe that the whole of the bible is about the Arch-angel Michael and not of God! According to the Witnesses this would have to be the conclusion. Yet Jesus said the scriptures testify of him!

chukwudi44: Whether he is Jesus or not that man has nothing to link him with micheal.No where in the bible is micheal described as captain of the Lord's army.

Do yourself a favour and do away with the teachings of ellen G white.

chukwudi44: No one is arguing that the word arch angel means a chief angel or leader of a group of angels but rather the bone of contention here is " is micheal the only arch angel". Daniel 10:13 says no he is not the only leader we have among angels

chukwudi44: 1 thes 4:16 does not mention micheal in anyway.we are not suppose to speculate and no where in the bible is micheal called the captain or leader of all angels.I challenge you to rtefute me on this.

Rev 12 even says "micheal and his angels" I don't see how this prase wopuld be interpreted to mean micheal is the captain of all angels.It didn't even say "micheal and the angels" .anyother thing amounts to mere speculation

Boomark: My dear the way you put it there is not the way it is. Why not say also "with a commanding shout of the trumpet of God." It doesn't make sense.

A shout: transmits His voice which the dead will hear and rise First.

Voice of an arch angel: leads, commands the armies of heaven.

Trumpet of God: has it own function and those that blow it.

Will He do all these things and also blow the trumpet?

Ndipe: Angels cant be worshipped, it's unscriptural to worship Angels, so whom Joshua met and bowed down to was likely Jesus Christ.

pastormustwacc: *Trolling*

italo: To be frank, I am neither in support of, nor against Israel. I feel tremendous sorrow for what is happening to the people of Gaza. However, the Israelis and the Arabs have deep seated hatred for each-other. Each is as wicked as the other. Even history and recent world events have shown that Arabs (perhaps, their religion is a factor) are more wicked than Israel. At least Israelis mind their business and don't go after people who have nothing to do with them. My sentiments used to tilt the Palestinian way until this Boko Haram issue started in Nigeria. Anytime the JTF wage an offensive, some people say they are killing civillians. But this civillians are passively or actively in support of the militant group. The same thing with Gaza. Who is a militant and who is not? I tell you, if Israel weren't the "bully", these Arabs would have annihilated them long ago.

Again, I am neither in support of, nor against either party.

I fully recognize the Palestinians right to fight for what they consider to be their land and rights.

nairabacks: THESE days you tend to read a lot of stuff, both online and off line about things, practices, items or everyday normal stuff that are in danger of landing one in HELL

Some examples

Weave ons

Cartoons

Jewelry

Precious stones and metal

Clothing- mini-skirts, makeup, high-heels

Etc

What is the truth about these ?

Because, if true a lot of people will not make the cut for heaven. Its hard enough steering clear of obvious sins, how much more these ?

obadiah777: YOU ARE ALREADY IN HELL

bolaino: bible believing church like? Do u have any precisely in mind,

chukwudi44: I insist there is nothing in that verse that suggests those people were raised by micheal. I do not deny the fact that God can use micheal to accomplish such feat but there is nothing In that passage to suggest micheal did raise them.You guys are merely speculating.

During the end times as clearly described in Revelation micheal was not the only angel assigned tasks.The other six other angels were also assigned major tasks.

Raising of people or person from the dead does not prove anyone is christ.God can always use anyone to achieve his goal.

chukwudi44: And you are pretending not to see that there are 7 arch angels including Gabriel and Raphael mentioned in the bible because it was not explicitly stated.

chukwudi44: The bible makes clear in the book of hebrews that christ is superior to angels.Even heb 1:14 describes angels as our servants while st Paul even says we would judge the angels.That first chapter of hebrews is enough to kill this argument but you are just been dogmatic.

Hebrews 1:4-14

New International Version (NIV)

[size=14pt]4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.[/size]

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son”[b]?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
    and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.


9 

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.


11 

They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.


12 

You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”[f]

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet”[g]?

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

chukwudi44: There is no where either in the biblical or extra-biblical canon where micheal is described as captain of angels.Rev 12:17 says micheal and his angels. It does not say micheal is the captain of all angels shikena

chukwudi44: Daniel 12:1-3

New International Version (NIV)

The End Times

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like
the stars for ever and ever

There is still nothing in this passage that suggest micheal was the one who raised those
people from their graves.

This passage only describes what will happen during the end times.God can use anyone to achieve his aim.Peter,Paul,Ezekiel e.t.c were also used by God to raise people from
the dead.Eziekiel was even used to accomplish the incredible feat of raising up dry bonesback to life but the fact remains that God simply used them.He can also use me and you

chukwudi44: I insist there is nothing in that verse that suggests those people were raised by micheal. I do not deny the fact that God can use micheal to accomplish such feat but there is nothing In that passage to suggest micheal did raise them.You guys are merely speculating.

During the end times as clearly described in Revelation micheal was not the only angel assigned tasks.The other six other angels were also assigned major tasks.

Raising of people or person from the dead does not prove anyone is christ.God can always use anyone to
achieve his goal.

chukwudi44: The man in Josua 5 :14 was never described as an angel stop making things up please

chukwudi44: So because he is to lead the battle @ the time of the end make him the captain of angels? Micheal is clearly stated as not been the only arch angel.Where did you read that he is the captain of all angels?

chukwudi44: So because he is to lead the battle @ the time of the end make him the captain of angels? Micheal is clearly stated as not been the only arch angel.Where did you read that he is the captain of all angels?

chukwudi44: If Jesus is truely angel micheal then it should be wrong to worship him.So your worship angle really holds no water.

Heb 1:4-13 makes it absolutely clear that Jesus is superior to angels.If you want to abide by the biblical definition of angels,you will do well to stick to that.

chukwudi44: There is nothing in Rev 12:7 that describes Micheal as captain of the angels .

Rev 12:7-8

 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.

And there is no where in the bible where is is written that Joshua met the angel micheal.The identity of the person Joshua met was never disclosed even though many has suggested it could have been Jesus.

I have said ot before that Micheal is not the only arch angel but rather there are seven of them.The term arch angel dosen't necessary refer to micheal.Gabriel,Raphael and uriel are also among the arch angels.

chukwudi44: Stop fooling yourself.we already know the seventh day adventist stand on this issue.Stop pretending you are neutral here.

If you want to hear what the bible says.I have already posted them in my last two posts on this thread.Better pay heed.

pastormustwacc: ^^I am thread OP, so i am not supposed to take sides. Immagine me being an interviewer. So now, we have 2 groups of people on this thread:
1. Those that believe that Jesus=Michael
2. Those that believe that Jesus <> Michael

Then on another level:
1. Those that believe that Jesus is the second person in the trinity
2. Those that believe that Jesus is not part of the trinity

*Heaves a sign of relief, lets proceed, i am happy with the contributors especially frosbel*

frosbel: 3 things are clear in the bible :

1. Jesus did not pre-exist as a being , but as a purpose and plan in the mind of GOD and for the redemption of the human race.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." - Genesis 3:15

2. Jesus was begotten of the Father at a fixed time in history as a fully fledged MAN

3. Angel Michael is exactly what the bible says he is , an archangel

No amount of scripture twisting and manipulation of the bible can come to any other conclusion.

This is what happens when you base your teaching on an organisation instead of the Holy Spirit.

frosbel: ^^^^

I agree.

But the problem with those who believe in the Trinity and Jesus as an archangel is that they believe in a pre-existence of Jesus as a being.

2 things.

The first ADAM was a man and the last Adam was also a MAN but this last ADAM had no natural father , he derived his divinity direct from his father who is GOD.

If we simply accept that Jesus Christ was born of a WOMAN by the Power of the Spirit of GOD , and that he is GOD's plan for the salvation of all MEN who repent from their sins, it begins to fall into place quite nicely.

Jesus is not an angel and he is also not Yahweh.

He is the SON of GOD or the Messiah !!!!

So simple , yet so hard for many to grasp.