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Christianity Etc › Re: Tithing Ended And Abolished In The N.T - An Exposition On Hebrews Chapter 7. by plappville(f): 1:32pm On Dec 04, 2012
Bidam: Principle is a rule or belief governing one's personal behavior.e.g i tithe as a principle.While Law is a system of rules and guidelines which are enforced through social institutions to govern behavior..e.g thou shall not kill is a law. Principle validates a Law..i think u know dat there are individuals who don't cut corners to make money; such individuals are principled..While there are some who cut corners to make wealth and still maintain the laws of the land..
Forget weder Principle or not. The bible no differentiate anything. Gods law is Gods law. If you break one, you
break all. If tithe is vakid for you, so does Gods sabbath thats my point.

@OP i beg no vex ooo. cheesy
Christianity Etc › Re: Tithing Ended And Abolished In The N.T - An Exposition On Hebrews Chapter 7. by plappville(f): 1:27pm On Dec 04, 2012
Bidam: i don't think i will waste my time here discussing spiritual principles here..since u re blind to spiritual truths..wait till Christ returns then we shall know who is speaking truth and who is telling lies...but one thing am sure of that the Holy Spirit has taught me is that tithing is a spiritual principles..The whole scriptures shouts it..Jesus acknowledges it..Paul encourages it..God validates it .
Good bros....this applies with "Gods" sabbath abi?
Not a dot of the law will pass away, Jesus , paul, all apostles and the early gentiles obeserved the Sabbath, why una no dey follow this law then? Because He no dey bring money abi? If tithe is held strongely because of blessing, dont you know that God also blessed The
blessing ??
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 1:15pm On Dec 04, 2012
Boomark: "For to which of the angels did
God ever say, "You are my Son;
today I have become your
Father"? Or again, "I will be his
Father, and he will be my Son"?" -
Hebrews 1:5
(NIV) Hebrews 1:4-9 Having become so
much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance
obtained a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than "Your companions."
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 12:49pm On Dec 04, 2012
Boomark: This plappville sef...i can see you are not resting.
Ma broda, no much resting ooo, i dey hunt for the truth like hunter wen dey hunt animals hahaha. We ve to dear, in other not to be lukewarm grin grin grin
Christianity Etc › Re: Stop Worshipping Your Pastors! by plappville(f): 3:34pm On Dec 03, 2012
BOTTOMLINE: Open your two God given eyes and stop worshipping your pastors!!! Worship God!!.
I really hope they open it wide and study thier bible!
Christianity Etc › Re: Stop Worshipping Your Pastors! by plappville(f): 3:27pm On Dec 03, 2012
Some people are still primitive in thier faith. One day a friend wrote in her FB profile.
"Thank you daddy for making me who i am today" this comment was for the picture of one of these prominent Pastors! Needless to mention name. So good enough not everyone see thier Pastors as thier saviour etc. A friend of her corrected her to stop giving praise to her Pastor. Sometimes i wonder if some people do study thier bible enough. Strange Nigeria Christians!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:14am On Dec 03, 2012
frosbel: Sir, I am too busy these days, so might not be able to answer you point for point.

There is no way we can agree on this one.

It is almost blasphemy to suggest that Jesus Christ was angel Michael, he was not.

You are basing your understanding not on the bible but the teachings of the JW or SDA.

Jesus is simply the Son of GOD , a MAN who gave his life for you and me. He is now exalted above all power and principality and this includes Michael.

Try and read the bible without the bias of organisational interpretation, you just might learn a thing or two.
Yet bros Frosbel based His position on an article, na waoh...... grin grin grin
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:09am On Dec 03, 2012
plappville: Who is this angel that God sent to go before the Israelites @Frosbel? [/color] Exodus 23:20-21 Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for "My name is in Him".[/b]His voice must be obeyed and Yaweh's name is in Him and He has the right not to pardon thier sins, who?.

And again, who is this angel? God did not go with them, He sent His angel. [color=#990000](Exodus 14:19-24.)[b] And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them;
and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.
So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night. Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided.
So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all PharaohÕs horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the LORD looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians.


Paul also spoke about this historical event and He specifically told who the Angel is. Isn't this questionable?

(1 Corinthians 10:1-4) Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, "and that Rock was Christ".
Who did God told us He sent with them? thesame Paul refered to. Corinthian made clear Exodus.

This same Angel Isaiah called the "Angel of His Presence" That saved, redeemed, and carried Israel all throughout the days of old. Isaiah says that this angel became their Savior! How many names is this same angel called now?

Its very easy to use one scripture, do we know Gods plan is far deeper than we believe we know?

You can refute this scriptures, either you tell me that, Paul was not talking about thesame Event of Exodus Exodus 14:19-24 and Exodus 23:20-21
Then tell us what event was Paul refering to and what scripture page/chapter can we find it?
A reminder @Frosbel!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:07am On Dec 03, 2012
Boomark: Michael is a great angel and has a great role to play at the last days. The great tribulation will usher in the coming of Christ and Michael will not be resting that time.

Daniel showed us what Michael does that is standing for the people of God.

This is the summary of my explanation of 1 thessalonians 4:16.

1 Christ will give a commanding call and the dead will rise first.

2 Michael will stand for the elect. How? Satan and his demon will come to drag the elect as he did against Moses and he will hear his voice say "the Lord rebuke you."

3 The trumpet of God(i hope u knw they are angels) will then gather the elect, mt 24:31.

This just sweet when done step by step no jumping.
shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked shocked
Bros na waooh, it seems you are diverting or mixing up things grin grin
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:05am On Dec 03, 2012
Maryjanee: i am confused as well. For those who say d "angel of d covenant" is'nt Jesus who is it then?
true2god and boomark will tell us who this angel of the convenant is grin
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:00am On Dec 03, 2012
frosbel: [/quote][quote author=frosbel]^^^^

This small article explains my position .
But i thought your believe is never based on any denomination or any pastor
or whatsoever? How come you re now posting an article written by someone and based your point of view on it? undecided undecided
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:57am On Dec 03, 2012
TroGunn: True, Trinity finds no support in the scrptures.

Article is right about Jesus not pre-existing as Almighty God Yahweh.

But article is wrong in denying Jesus preexisted at all - it just opted to ignore scriptures that confirms he preexisted. You need to face up to and explain such verses, like the few below -

ohn 1:1-3 -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".

John 1:14 -- "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 6:62 -- "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?"

Prov 8:30 -- "Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence"

Matthew 22:41-46 -- "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions"".

You can't just ignore scriptures that go against your personally held beliefs. If you do, you are really no different from Trinitarians, because that's what they do.
Frosbel will not explain any of this, this is not the first time He is been faced with these scriptures!!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:56am On Dec 03, 2012
frosbel: Do not be deceived brethren by the JW stance on this specific issue.

[size=14pt]1) It is blasphemy to suggest that an angel was sent to die for the sins of mankind. [/size]

Only a MAN could undo what the First Adam has spoilt and that Man was the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of GOD.

He was not GOD or an angel , rather he came as a MAN , died as a MAN , and is glorified as the first MAN as Son of GOD , to defeat Sin and Death.

[size=14pt]2) Do not be deceived,[/size] angel worship is s serious error.
1)It is blasphemy to deniel Christ Pre-existance
2)What makes you believe you arenot been decieved by the arthor of this Article undecided
Do we now enrase all these verses from the Bible? What is to be done, you have refused to explain those Scriptures, do not be like the Pharisees
What is impossible for man is Possible for God, Yahweh does not think or do things like Men. f
From OT to NT, scripture clearly shows Christ pre-existed.
The recent articles you read are the problems you are having. They have manipulated your thinking, now you can't see the obvious bros...SMH!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 12:52am On Dec 03, 2012
frosbel: I can go on lenghty debates , but my schedule is very busy these days.

I will address this in greater detail in the coming weeks.

For now, I can assure you that Jesus Christ is not Angel Michael, this is a flawed position which by the way was not an original doctrine of JW when they first started.

It is totally unbiblical.
Bros, that will be great cool !
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 12:47am On Dec 03, 2012
frosbel: Do not be deceived brethren by the JW stance on this specific issue.

It is blasphemy to suggest that an angel was sent to die for the sins of mankind.

Only a MAN could undo what the First Adam has spoilt and that Man was the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of GOD.

He was not GOD or an angel , rather he came as a MAN , died as a MAN , and is glorified as the first MAN as Son of GOD , to defeat Sin and Death.

Do not be deceived, angel worship is s serious error.
This is on the Vision of David in (Psalm 110:1). When Jesus was talking with the Pharisees, He gave
clues as to who He is: What does "the Lord said to my Lord" mean?

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. Matthew 22:41-46


Jesus speaks of "Yahweh" telling "Him" Sit at My right hand, and He asks the Jews who's Son is He.
The obvious answer that made the Pharisees mad were not able to answer, was that Jesus is the Son of God! He is Lord as the Father is Lord.
King David spoke about Him in the Spalms but The pharisees would not accept Him. You are in same shoe as the Pharisees.
Oh no common, Jesus never existed, Those scriptures are all misinterpreted. The pharisee belittle Jesus, How can He be the Lord David spoke about? huh

Scroll back and Think about all these scriptures bros.....if we have been mix-interpreting them, you
can correct us by helping to explain thier meaning. Scripture interprets scripture, Matthew 22:41-46 interprets Psalm 110:1.
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:56pm On Dec 02, 2012
TroGunn: It is greater blasphemy to go against the scripture to deny that a spirit being had his life miraculously transfered to the womb of Mary to be born as a human Jesus, to die for mankind's sins. Once born on earth, he was human. Prior to being born, Jesus was undoubtedly a spirit being, still carrying out God's work.

John 1:1-3 -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".

John 1:14 -- "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 6:62 -- "Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?"

Prov 8:30 -- "Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence"
This our bro Frosbel has been rejecting plain scriptures, It seems He has the final
interpretaion of the scripture in NL. These passages has been posted before Him severally, but He continue to keep blind eyes to them.
I have learnt alot from him in the past, but today, I'm afraid, He has a new doctrine outside the bible.

Bros Frosbel, i have got one passage for you soon grin grin!!!!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f):
@true2god, In addition to your Hebrews passages on why Angels are ordered to worship Jesus if He was an angel.

In Hebrews we can see that when God puts the "firstborn" into the world, that He says to the angels to worship Him!

(NIV) Hebrews 1:4-9 Having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than "Your companions."


Jesus has all the privileges of the "first born". We know that in ancient Israel, first born had the privilege of representing the Father.
When Jesus came to this world, He came to reveal "God's glory" :

John 14:9) (Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?.

We have seen that Jesus was with the Father Before He came to earth, God made Him much better than the Angels, And He got a more excellent name
than the Angels.
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:19pm On Dec 02, 2012
frosbel: Do not be deceived brethren by the JW stance on this specific issue.

It is blasphemy to suggest that an angel was sent to die for the sins of mankind.

Only a MAN could undo what the First Adam has spoilt and that Man was the Messiah, the Christ and the Son of GOD.

He was not GOD or an angel , rather he came as a MAN , died as a MAN , and is glorified as the first MAN as Son of GOD , to defeat Sin and Death.

Do not be deceived, angel worship is s serious error.
Where did He come from?
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:13pm On Dec 02, 2012
true2god: The person of chrsit had never been ambigous. There is nowhere the Bible assumed or called the person of Jesus an angel but a watchtower interpretation\belief instilled on their members without any right to question its authority. It is only a watchtower desperation to erase the divinity of christ, the light is gettin brighter falsehood.

Now my questions are:
Can any angel worship angel? No.
Were all angels asked to worship the Son? Yes (Heb 1:6. U cant worship someone with no divinity)

Did God at anytime make a vow or decree to ANY angel 'u r my Son, this day hav i beggotten u'? No.
Did God at anytine decreed Jesus as his Son? Yes (Psalm 2:7, Heb 1:5, psalm 110:5)

Is any angel the brightness image of God's glory and express image of God's person. Non
Is christ the brightness image of God's glory and express image of God's person? Yes (Heb 1:3, John 1:14, John 14:9, col 1: 17)

Did the father call any of the angels God or Mighty God? No
Did the father call the Son God or mighty God? Yes (isaiah 9:6, 1tim 3:16, Heb 1:9, psalm 4: 6,7)

To WHICH OF THE ANGELS did God say at anytime (angel michael inclusive, cos simple english WHICH OF THE ANGELS simply means ALL ANGELS) 'sit at my right hand till i make ur enemy thy footstool? None
Did God ask the Son to sit at his right hand? Yes (Heb 1:13, psalm 110:1)


The issue here is not Barrister, truthislight,ijawkid, etc. The issue is the watchtower organization dat brought this brainwashment and muddlin together incoherent and unrelated verses to muddle-up simple and plain bible teachin. Angel michael played his role in the scriptures, especially among the isrealites and prophets of old. Arch angel michael is still an angel just as an accountant general is still an accountant. The repeated assertion, by the wriiter of hebrew, 'TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS' is a simple collective for the words 'All the angels' (no exception). The writer was plain enof and in a simple term that all angels (arch angel michael inclusive) to worship the Son. A honest person who do not want to be deliberatelt deceived by any organization will understand this simple english. Neither do i think there is any rule of exception here.

If any1 of u guys go out today or to orrow for a publishin work, open the book of Hebrews chapter 1 for the person and ask him to read it indepednetly without usin the watchtower magaine, then ask the person if the son is an angel or not and get his\her response.

The issue of 'jesus christ the arch angel michael' fallasy can only be bought by a gullible mind who closed the Bible frm himself and open the watchtower magazine as an alternative. Cos no unadulterated truth can come out of the watchtower magazine, it will keep changing (light will continue getter brighter in falsehood)
Jesus did not become Jesus until He took on humanity. A caterpillar that turns into a butterfly.
Yes, it is thesame insect however after metamorphosis it is forever changed. So we call it by different names.

At one time, the Son of God was known as Michael the archangel, according to several Scriptures posted in this thread.
Now, that He has been made in the likeness of men, He will always be Jesus, the Lamb of God who came down ad was made in the flesh to die for our sins.
He is now the anointed of God. So your Hebrew qoutation fits.

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


I hope you can see that Jesus has a new name and at the name of Jesus every knee should bow. . .?

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name "will" be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6 KJV


Also in Rev, we see tht Jesus will have a new name that He did not have before. Jesus will write on the righteous, His new name.

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.
And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.
And I will write on him My new name. Revelation 3:12


Do you know this New name already? And why a new name again?

You will discuss with everyone in honesty if you can stop pointing at the watchtower and the JW.
I am not a memeber of both denomination. And i believe many of us are not. We are here to discuss bible not a particular church.
This can derail the thread and we will end up missing the aim of it.
Go to the bible for support of your qoutes and let the other organizations be.

[size=14pt]Thread continues cool[/size]
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:26pm On Dec 02, 2012
Boomark: Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.

1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.

THE BELOW DENOTES THOSE/EVENTS THAT HIS DECENT WILL COME WITH.

2. With the voice of "the" arch angel: this shows that the arch angel will at that time stand and do his work of which at that time is to protect those that will be gathered from the earth. He will protect them from satan's. Satan would not want the elect to be gathered.

3. With "the" trumpet of God: this will go a long way to prove the things Christ will be coming "with"

Mt 24:31
King James Bible

And he shall send his
angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his
elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven
to the other.


There are angels that bear the trumpet of God and they are what is denoted by "with the trumpet of God."

I hope it is clear now. If you want to prove something make it wholelistic. And not cherry picking of arch angels voice while dumping the loud command/shout and the trumpet of God.

STEP BY STEP
Christ will not borrow any voice. Unless you are thinking that we don't know that a loud command/shout can be done by voice.
1. With "a" loud command/shout: this is obviously done with his voice. Who do you think he will command? Those that will hear the shout from his voice. The dead will hear his voice and come out.
My broda na waoh for you ooo, u still never finish with this matter? Christ no borrow anything, Na him own voice be that grin
Ok, now here is a question! Who's voice is like a trumpet? John said it was the first voice which he had heard before.

The Archangel's voice and the trumpet of God are two aspects of Christ's commanding shout. If you read "au debut" of REVELATION grin
Jesus will shout with the voice of th archangel since He has been the Chief Messenger and His voice is also a trumpet-like according to John.


Read Revelation 1:10-18 verse (10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me,
saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."


This is clearly Jesus who speaks with a loud voice and his voice is compared with a "trumpet". Jesus' voice sounds like a trumpet!
Compare this with these two different passages, you will see that. One passage refers to Christ's voice as waking up the dead; but, the other passage refers to the trumpet of God as waking up the dead. Please try and See (John 5:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-57.)

One text says the dead will hear the voice of Jesus. But, the other text says that it is at the last trumpet that the dead will rise.

Both re describing thesame event but they are describin the "shout Jesus" gives differently.
The voice mentioned and the trumpet of God must be two aspects of Christ's same commanding shout.
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 8:39pm On Dec 02, 2012
truthislight: lol
@freksy

good one.


therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows". Psalm 45:5-7 - KJV

who are his fellows? = other angels

any contrary views?
Scripture made plain!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 8:35pm On Dec 02, 2012
true2god: Jesus christ is many occassions regarded himself as the 'son of man'. He is right since he was in the flesh, in a human form, therefore he was regareded as a 'son of man'. All man born of a woman is a 'son of man'. But christ asked his disciples who he really was and Peter replied: 'u r the son of the living God'. Jesus is the 'son of the living God'. But as many as receive him he gave power, right, or privilege to become 'a son of God'. That is to say all human beings are 'sons of men' but not all human are 'sons of God'.

[size=14pt]To put ur question right, let me say: is it right to worship the 'son of God'? My straight ansa is YES. This is because the father commanded it (Heb 1:cool. This is a topic for another thread but if my pple insist im wrong we will equally trash it out on dis thread. R u forbidden frm worshippin an angel? Yes.
[/size]
Now the issue here is this, virtually most bible translation rendered Heb 1:8 as 'worship' except the NWT. The new word translation rendered the verse as 'obeisance'. There is a difference bw 'worship' and 'obeisance'. U worship a deity while pay obeisance (or pay homage as the case may be) to someone u respect or of a highly authority dan u, not necessarily a deity.

Now lets look at this scenario, during the 'cuba missile crisis of 1962', the americans imposed a naval blockade around cuba in order to avoid an in-flow of nuclear arms to cuba. Blockade in an international relation is an act of war. So in order for the american to remove any legal 'quabble' that might result as a result of their action, called 'blockade' Quarantine, so that their action would not be seen as a direct declaration of war against cuba.

Now back to the issue of 'worship' and 'obeisance', if the watchtower's NWT renderes Heb 1:8 as worship, the will be indirectly acceptin the didvinity of Christ, but if rendered obeisance it will read an entirely different meaning and provide a breathing space on their stance on the person of christ. But u can read the book of psalms 45: 6-7 and compare it with wat u hav in hebrew chapter one and draw ur independent concusion.[size=14pt] Angels are not to be worshipd, not even angel michael. The 'son of God' can be worshipped. [/size]

Thank u.
To the font size: Scripture tells us that "No one has ever seen God" (John 1:18, Exodus 33:20,John 6:46) So you will agree with me that It was not Yahweh that Joshua spoke with face to face. So Who is this "Messenger" of Yahweh that introduced Himself as Captain of Gods Host and did accepted worship?

Joshua 5: 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 8:20pm On Dec 02, 2012
truthislight: plappville question was "as what did Jesus preexisted as"?

Did you answer her question with that your statement up there? No.

You avoided it since you are a dishonest person.

Why not go back and answer her by saying that Jesus preexisted as the almighty Yahweh?

Are you now ashamed of you trinity doctrine?
Lol.

You are shame of your trinity.

Did you not read Jesus say:
"if you are ashamed of me in this world i will be ashamed of you in my kingdom"?

You are finished.

You denied christ because of your false hood by avoiding to answer a simple question that "if Jesus preexisted, he preexisted as what"?

Now, go ahead and answer let us see.
There are two ways, either Jesus existed as God (Yahweh) or as the "Angel of the Lord". As the OT always reffered him to be.
Anyone who believe Christ pre-existed should be able to tell us if He was Yahweh Himself.
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 8:15pm On Dec 02, 2012
Freksy: 1. You worship the father. 2. You worship the son. 3. You pray to the father through the son.

Hmmmm, you direct your worship to two different persons? You pray to the father through the son, do you also pray to the son, if yes, through who, if no, why?
Good one there, this shows how confused one can be when trying to refused a plain scripture. He has ended in mixing up everything grin grin grin
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 12:05am On Dec 02, 2012
true2god: This is the issue i hav with some of u guys. U r here apologizin to me for callin me a cathlic and yet u r not sure if i am a catholic or not. Whether u hav met u somewhere on dis forum, even after tellin u i am not a cathlic yet u r not sure. Na wa 4 u ooo.

Thats the same way u guys apply to bible doctrines. U r not always sure of wat u r saying, as long as a doctrin comes frm watchtower thats wat u go for, no qualms, whether true or false. Whether the same doctrine will be de-validated as false tomorrow as soon as JW light gets brighter on dat issue.

Scroll back and read my analysis of malachi 3:1 u will see my stands on it. One messenger was to prepare the way for another messanger. One messanger comes with the spirit of Elijah (John the baptist) and the other messanger comes as a messiah (Jesus christ), filles with holy spirit. So non of the two is an angel. Dont believe lies and dnt propagate lies.
You are not been honest with scriptures, especially malachi 3:1!!
Christianity Etc › Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:41pm On Dec 01, 2012
true2god: The person of chrsit had never been ambigous. There is nowhere the Bible assumed or called the person of Jesus an angel but a watchtower interpretation\belief instilled on their members without any right to question its authority. It is only a watchtower desperation to erase the divinity of christ, the light is gettin brighter falsehood.

Now my questions are:
Can any angel worship angel? No.
Were all angels asked to worship the Son? Yes (Heb 1:6. U cant worship someone with no divinity)

Did God at anytime make a vow or decree to ANY angel 'u r my Son, this day hav i beggotten u'? No.
Did God at anytine decreed Jesus as his Son? Yes (Psalm 2:7, Heb 1:5, psalm 110:5)

Is any angel the brightness image of God's glory and express image of God's person. Non
Is christ the brightness image of God's glory and express image of God's person? Yes (Heb 1:3, John 1:14, John 14:9, col 1: 17)

Did the father call any of the angels God or Mighty God? No
Did the father call the Son God or mighty God? Yes (isaiah 9:6, 1tim 3:16, Heb 1:9, psalm 4: 6,7)

To WHICH OF THE ANGELS did God say at anytime (angel michael inclusive, cos simple english WHICH OF THE ANGELS simply means ALL ANGELS) 'sit at my right hand till i make ur enemy thy footstool? None
Did God ask the Son to sit at his right hand? Yes (Heb 1:13, psalm 110:1)

The issue here is not Barrister, truthislight,ijawkid, etc. The issue is the watchtower organization dat brought this brainwashment and muddlin together incoherent and unrelated verses to muddle-up simple and plain bible teachin. Angel michael played his role in the scriptures, especially among the isrealites and prophets of old. Arch angel michael is still an angel just as an accountant general is still an accountant. The repeated assertion, by the wriiter of hebrew, 'TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS' is a simple collective for the words 'All the angels' (no exception). The writer was plain enof and in a simple term that all angels (arch angel michael inclusive) to worship the Son. A honest person who do not want to be deliberatelt deceived by any organization will understand this simple english. Neither do i think there is any rule of exception here.

If any1 of u guys go out today or to orrow for a publishin work, open the book of Hebrews chapter 1 for the person and ask him to read it indepednetly without usin the watchtower magaine, then ask the person if the son is an angel or not and get his\her response.

The issue of 'jesus christ the arch angel michael' fallasy can only be bought by a gullible mind who closed the Bible frm himself and open the watchtower magazine as an alternative. Cos no unadulterated truth can come out of the watchtower magazine, it will keep changing (light will continue getter brighter in falsehood)
With all the scriptures presented to you, you were not able to cooment on any, all you say here is....Jesus is not archangel. Ok now tell me, do you believe Jesus Pre-existed? if yes, as what? if no, then give us scriptures as prove. Thank you.
Christianity Etc › Re: Letter To Frosbel. by plappville(f): 11:36pm On Nov 30, 2012
alexleo: The bible made it clear that hell is place of torment and heaven a place of rest. If somebody tells me he had an experience of hell and his story about it is that of torment as the bible describes it what is not biblical about it? It will only be unbiblical if somebody tells me that he experienced hell and that it is a place of comfort and joy. And i said when this testimony is coming from thousands and thousands of people in various parts of the world. People of different churches, people of different religious background. People of different cultural background, then there is need for him to pray more about it for God's guidance. What is force about it? I didnt even say he must consider what i said and do it.
Friend, the worst thing that can happen to any human being is for him to believe that when he dies evnerything ends in the grave only for him to discover when he dies that he was wrong in his believe. Also if a sinner believes that he wont burn forever in the lake of fire only for him to discover that he will actually burn forever. Eternity is a place all of us will experience indvidually. Nobody will experience any side of it for another person so whats the need forcing somebody? We are just discussing this things to help ourselves in the heavenly race. I have nothing to lose in another person's stand about it. I know the message of hell or eternal torment is quite a scary one that human beings would like to avoid or make it look somehow bearable but i'd rather believe it as scary and horrible as it is than believe a simplified version of it..
That is why we have to look into things from the bible not outside it. If we must help ourselves, we must alow the scripture to do that.

Again, It is unscriptural because all biblical Figures that died and came back did not in anyway told us how hell or Heaven looks like.
This is not a matter of interpretation, i did not interpret anything, i just presented the scriptures and no where did we see such.

We have several resurrection stories in the Bible, none said similar things:

OT: Elijah resurrected the son of Zarephath's widow, see 1 Kings 17:17-24

Elisha resurrected the son of the great Shunammite woman, see 2 Kings 4:35

A dead man comes back to life when he touches Elisha's bones, see Kings 13:21


NT: Jesus resurrects the widow's son at Nain, see: Luke 7:13-15

Jesus raises Jairus' daughter from the dead, see: Matthew 9:25, Mark 5:42, and Luke 8:55

Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead, see: John 11:43-44

Many saints resurrected at Jesus' crucifixion. see Matthew 27:52-53

Peter raises a female disciple named Tabitha from the dead. see: Acts 9:36-42

Paul raises Eutychus from the dead. see: Acts 20:9-12


With all these, the bible still did not tell us that "JAZEBEL" is in hell burning already.

[s]I am not going to talk or discuss an arguement with you anymore, since you said you were not forcing Him. Case close.[/s]
Christianity Etc › Re: This Chapter Is Disturbing Me, Can You Make It Clearer Please? by plappville(op): 11:01pm On Nov 30, 2012
Image123: @plap

so i found the trouble, hahahahahahahhhhhhahahaaaaahaaahahaahahahahahaa cheesy
Well then, to be fair, let me be on your side. One thing i'd advice. If you're looking for explanation next time from fellow humans, try to get a good Bible commentary instead, not NL. NL is not the ideal place to get spiritual counsel ehn! Go and look for children of God you can sincerely share God's Word with without unneeded distractions, or ask your church/felowship leaders. An dof course, ask God's Spirit i.e the Holy Spirit to teach you, and He will. Make i just chip in some sentences for the passage sha.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Settle this clearly in you. This is the focal point of the two testaments. NOBODY is justified by the law in God's sight. You can't, i can't get righteous by keeping the law. Maybe before man, they may see me as a good guy by keeping the law, but not God.Even atheists will call me good, perhaps because i do not commit adultery, or lie, or cheat, or kill. I may even rate myself good because i do this things. But God does not rate anybody good or righteous by his keeping the law.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Before God, we can never meet the standard of righteousness.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

His standard of righteousness is so high we cannot attain it. We can ONLY be saved by His mercy. It is His mercy that sent us Jesus Christ to save us. Now, in Jesus, through faith in Jesus, we are saved. So now, Jesus becomes righteousness for us. He is our substitute. in the New Testament, we are made righteous by faith in Jesus. Believing in Jesus.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

We are to seek/look for GOD's righteousness. We spend a lot of time and energy trying to establish OUR righteousness, like the jews. But our righteousness can NEVER meet God's standards. Our keeping laws can never make us righteous. Instead, we are made rightous, so that we can keep God's laws.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Notice the two righteousness mentioned in that verse? God's righteousness is FOUND in Jesus Christ.
1Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Jesus is God's righteousness. Accepting and BELIEVING in His new covenant is what makes us righteous before God.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So the keeping of the law does not and cannot make us righteous. It is Jesus that can make us righteous, when He comes into u by faith and is made the righteousness of God to us by faith.


Galat 3:22 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
The scriptures has found us all wanting. Everyone is guilty under the law, either by default birth, or b commision or omission.

Gala 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gala 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

God gave the law to show us that we could not meet the standard. Man can only try, but at the end be found wanting under the law. Could my zeal no respite know, could my tears forever flow, ALL for sin cannot atone. The law was our teacher. It was given to teach us that we cannot attain it on our own. Unfortunately, majority are yet to learn that lesson.


Gala 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gala3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Now that faith has come i.e faith in Jesus, we are no more UNDER the law. This simply means that those in the new covenant, who have found salvation in Jesus are now promoted. Its similar to leaving primary school to high school. It's not contradictory but a learning process, a growth in stage. The law is not to be treated with scorn or hat like many do. Actually, the law is good and holy. But it doesn't take us to our goal, just like primary school education cannot get us a good job or into college/university. We are no longer under the schoolmaster does not translate into lawlessness. It just means that we are now in grace. Grace helps us to keep the law. Under the schoolmaster, we cannot keep the law. You don't throw away all you learnt in primary school, it is actually FOUNDATIONAL to your learning all through life.The law/schoolmaster is like an exacting perfectionist dragging you almost to do good, but you can't keep up And its usually with a correcting whip for your learning troubles. But grace, faith in Christ Jesus is the helping hand that helps you do the same things, even more than the law required. If you notice, the commands in the new testament are higher and tougher than the old testament in comparison(Recall or read Matthew 5). The turn is that We as children of God, are RIGHTEOUS by faith, then we obey God's Word as it is our new nature. Unlike the law, where we are trying to obey the God's word so as to be righteous or acceptable.

Gala 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gala 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

We have all PUT on Christ once we believe and are baptised. Christ is our righteousness. He that believes and is baptised shall be saved. And the new testament has just the faith criteria. It is for everyone and anyone. Whosoever believes. it is a better, improved,new package. You don't need any qualifications. Jesus is what qualifies you. you don't have to be a Jew, or circumcised, or a man, or from the tribe of Levi, or a freeman. There is no hinderance, the veil has been torn when Christ died.

Gala 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If you are Christ's, you are an heir of the kingdom. you are God's child. You now have power. This power can help you to please God. We are not made righteous by faith so as to displease God, or become lawless. We are made righteous, and empowred to obey God's Word. The stuggle of the law is now made easy. Someone in college doesn't find primary school work as a burden or impossible. He has all potential to do it and teach it IF NEED BE. That's the summary of the passage oh, plap.
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