LordReed:


For a body to withstand eternal torment must mean the body is tough be[i][/i]ast of a body wouldn't it? I mean it's not going to burn into ash I suppose and has to remain intact for the pain to be felt, that has to be an awesome body, even Superman would be jealous. LoL!

Didn't the Four Hebrew boys/lads/young men stay in the fiery furnace and were not destroyed?

Same way God can put a wicked person body, soul and spirit in the lake of fire in a realm where time doesn't exist!

No wonder Jesus said:
Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

If all God can do to a man is just to kill his body, why should we be afraid of Him?
Don't forget that the physically dead feel NOTHING!

TenQ:

We forget that the LOVING God is also FEARFUL in anger
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I wish the scripture above is eternal death rather than eternal punishment then we can soften down the gravity of the punishment.

If death is a punishment, is Abraham, Isaac, jacob, Moses, David, Peter, Paul and the other disciples under punishment?


Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

If death is a form of unconscious oblivion, then it is a REST from all toils and pain.
How come those who worship the beast receive no rest from their torment?

There is a parallel here referencing the devil (Revelation 20:10)

They know but as God is getting Closer, knowing their Judgement, they are trying to see if there is a way to cope.

They forget that The Law of "No eye has seen and no ear has heard NOR HAS IT ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF ANY MAN, WHAT THE LORD HAS IN STORE FOR THOSE WHO HATE HIM" is there waiting to be implemented.

TenQ:

We forget that the LOVING God is also FEARFUL in anger
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I wish the scripture above is eternal death rather than eternal punishment then we can soften down the gravity of the punishment.

Death is the punishment for sin {Romans 6:23} all humans have sinned and fall short of the glory of God {Romans 3:23} due to what we all inherited from Adam! Romans 5:12
But for descendants of Adam who have proved to be righteous ones their punishment will be temporary since they proved to be obedient despite under the bondage of sin and death {Romans 5:17} they will be resurrected! Job 14:13-15
As for rebellious humans who followed after Adam their own punishment is eternal {2Peter 2:6; Jude 7} that's what eternal punishment means in the Bible not a place where they will continue breathing naaaaaaaa! Jeremiah 7:31

If death is a punishment, is Abraham, Isaac, jacob, Moses, David, Peter, Paul and the other disciples under punishment?
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

This means that survivors of the destruction of this system of things will never forget how God ended all evidoers, we will continue to tell the generations coming after Armageddon. Revelations 16:16

If death is a form of unconscious oblivion, then it is a REST from all toils and pain.
How come those who worship the beast receive no rest from their torment?
There is a parallel here referencing the devil (Revelation 20:10)

Of course death is the end of all evidoers because the wages of sin right from the beginning is not beyond death {Genesis 2:17; 3:19} so at death the evildoer has paid for all his evil, he has been discharged no more punishment! Romans 6:7
But we who survived all their evils will continue to remember them just as we keep remembering the acts of people like Cain, Pharaoh Ramses, Balam, Goliath, Jezebel, inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. All these people are gone forever but when we talk about them any listener will feel their pain as if it's still happening to them whereas they've paid fully for their evil at death! Romans 6:7

May you have PEACE!

TenQ:
1. You can close your eyes to the reality as long as you like BUT if Jesus preached about hell, you should ask yourself why you think it means annihilation.

2. Why should Jesus insert the fact that the Rich man had bothers still living in oblivion about hell?
If God is Just, will He punish gross wickedness?

3. Is it not obvious that Jesus was teaching that physical death is not the end of existence?

1. I am not the one with the closed eyes here. There is no need for me to to myself why hell is annihilation and this simply because Jesus Christ Himself stated that it is a place of eternal damnation - Matthew 25 vs 41 - 44 - case finis!

2. He didn't insert any fact because again it was a story He told, much like the tales you listen to by moonlight... meant as a way of teaching a particular lesson. You would know this from the fact that many of the elements used in the story are not based on truth found elsewhere in the Bible - assuming you are versed in the details of God's Law.

And there is absolutely no logic to assuming that a just God would not purnish wickedness.. the entire Bible is littered from beginning to end with stories of a Just God punishing wickedness, so I don't understand the foolishness behind the idea that a just God does not punish wickedness.

3. The same Jesus Christ reiterated that physical death is indeed the end for unbelievers, those who reject Him. God declared this judgment from the beginning - Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 - and Jesus Christ restated this several times in His teaching, referring to unbelievers as the 'dead'.

MaxInDHouse:

Death is the punishment for sin {Romans 6:23} all humans have sinned and fall short of the glory of God {Romans 3:23} due to what we all inherited from Adam! Romans 5:12
But for descendants of Adam who have proved to be righteous ones their punishment will be temporary since they proved to be obedient despite under the bondage of sin and death {Romans 5:17} they will be resurrected! Job 14:13-15
As for rebellious humans who followed after Adam their own punishment is eternal {2Peter 2:6; Jude 7} that's what eternal punishment means in the Bible not a place where they will continue breathing naaaaaaaa! Jeremiah 7:31


This means that survivors of the destruction of this system of things will never forget how God ended all evidoers, we will continue to tell the generations coming after Armageddon. Revelations 16:16


Of course death is the end of all evidoers because the wages of sin right from the beginning is not beyond death {Genesis 2:17; 3:19} so at death the evildoer has paid for all his evil, he has been discharged no more punishment! Romans 6:7
But we who survived all their evils will continue to remember them just as we keep remembering the acts of people like Cain, Pharaoh Ramses, Balam, Goliath, Jezebel, inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. All these people are gone forever but when we talk about them any listener will feel their pain as if it's still happening to them whereas they've paid fully for their evil at death! Romans 6:7

May you have PEACE!

Hello Bro,
I find it amazing how you find it convenient to disregard some words of the scripture.


Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night —those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
What is a TORMENT knowing that the dead knows NOTHING!
Can I torment a dead cat?
What does it mean that they have No Rest day and night?
If the dead are deemed to have slept, how come these particular set of dead people have no rest?
Job 14:10-12


Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?

Kobojunkie:
1. I am not the one with the closed eyes here. There is no need for me to to myself why hell is annihilation and this simply because Jesus Christ Himself stated that it is a place of eternal damnation - Matthew 25 vs 41 - 44 - case finis!

2. He didn't insert any fact because again it was a story He told, much like the tales you listen to by moonlight... meant as a way of teaching a particular lesson. You would know this from the fact that many of the elements used in the story are not based on truth found elsewhere in the Bible - assuming you are versed in the details of God's Law.

And there is absolutely no logic to assuming that a just God would not purnish wickedness.. the entire Bible is littered from beginning to end with stories of a Just God punishing wickedness, so I don't understand the foolishness behind the idea that a just God does not punish wickedness.

You are correct up to this point.
If God is just, he must punish evildoers!

Kobojunkie:

3. The same Jesus Christ reiterated that physical death is indeed the end for unbelievers, those who reject Him. God declared this judgment from the beginning - Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 - and Jesus Christ restated this several times in His teaching, referring to unbelievers as the 'dead'.

There are different kinds of death (am sure you will argue about this).
However and not withstanding
If physical death is the punishment of evildoers, why should anyone worry about the punishment of God.

Why:
If Buhari executes an armed robber, the armed robber dies and knows nothing
If God executes the same armed robber, the armed robber dies and knows nothing
So, what's the difference: for as far as they know nothing, the permanence or not of death is irrelevant.

Physical death is in fact, an ESCAPE from the worries and pains of this world and not a punishment

Dtruthspeaker:


They know but as God is getting Closer, knowing their Judgement, they are trying to see if there is a way to cope.

They forget that The Law of "No eye has seen and no ear has heard NOR HAS IT ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF ANY MAN, WHAT THE LORD HAS IN STORE FOR THOSE WHO HATE HIM" is there waiting to be implemented.

Some people think that the fact that God is LOVE, he would also be a fluffy teddy Bear kind of God.
They assume that all humans are Gods Children.

If a person is NOT a Child of God, then who is he?

TenQ:

You are correct up to this point.
If God is just, he must punish evildoers!
1. There are different kinds of death (am sure you will argue about this).
2. However and not withstanding
If physical death is the punishment of evildoers, why should anyone worry about the punishment of God.

Why:
If Buhari executes an armed robber, the armed robber dies and knows nothing
If God executes the same armed robber, the armed robber dies and knows nothing
So, what's the difference: for as far as they know nothing, the permanence or not of death is irrelevant.

3. Physical death is in fact, an ESCAPE from the worries and pains of this world and not a punishment

1. According to God, there is only one Death and He decreed it in Genesis 2 vs 17 and condemned man to it in Genesis 3 vs 19- 22

2. Unbelievers have no reason to worry about the punishment of a God - it's our fate from the moment we are born to cease to exist right from the point of conception. The only way to escape that fate is to believe in God.

3. Physical death, for the unbelievers, is a ceasing of an existence.

* There are mentions of a second death, this in the writings of some of the apostles, but this all seems in reference to the punishment of Hell.

TenQ:

Hello Bro,
I find it amazing how you find it convenient to disregard some words of the scripture.
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night —those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
What is a TORMENT knowing that the dead knows NOTHING!
Can I torment a dead cat?
What does it mean that they have No Rest day and night?
If the dead are deemed to have slept, how come these particular set of dead people have no rest?
Job 14:10-12
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?

Jesus is the one revealing these things to John through signs or symbolic terms {Revelations 1:1} so just as Jesus always use symbolic terms to reveal sacred secrets {Matthew 13:13} he is still doing the same! Hebrews 13:8

Therefore when you read the Bible book of Revelation and try to see it in the literal sense then you can't understand the sacred secrets! Daniel 12:10

From the beginning the punishment God pronounced against sinners is death and nothing more! Genesis 2:17; 3:19; Romans 6:7

God said "tormenting living persons in fire has not come into His heart" {Jeremiah 7:31} so if you now find something contrary to these then you should know that Jesus is speaking in Parables, remember his usage of symbolic terms led most of his first century Jewish followers abandon him! John 6:61-66
So calm down and learn, God never promised the evildoers eternal life, it's a gift for only the righteous not the wicked! Romans 6:23

May you have PEACE!

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus is the one revealing these things to John through signs or symbolic terms {Revelations 1:1} so just as Jesus always use symbolic terms to reveal sacred secrets {Matthew 13:13} he is still doing the same! Hebrews 13:8

Therefore when you read the Bible book of Revelation and try to see it in the literal sense then you can't understand the sacred secrets! Daniel 12:10

From the beginning the punishment God pronounced against sinners is death and nothing more! Genesis 2:17; 3:19; Romans 6:7

God said "tormenting living persons in fire has not come into His heart" {Jeremiah 7:31} so if you now find something contrary to these then you should know that Jesus is speaking in Parables, remember his usage of symbolic terms led most of his first century Jewish followers abandon him! John 6:61-66
So calm down and learn, God never promised the evildoers eternal life, it's a gift for only the righteous not the wicked! Romans 6:23

May you have PEACE!

I believe I asked you several direct question to help you slow down and analyse the scriptures. Let me reiterate


Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night —those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
1. What is a TORMENT knowing that the dead knows NOTHING!
2. Can I torment a dead cat?
3. What does it mean that they have No Rest day and night?
4. If the dead are deemed to have slept, how come these particular set of dead people have no rest? Job 14:10-12

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
5. Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?
Five separate question that deserve short answers

Kobojunkie:
1. According to God, there is only one Death and He decreed it in Genesis 2 vs 17 and condemned man to it in Genesis 3 vs 19- 22
[/quote}
Revelation mentions explicitly a second kind of death which isn't annihilation but a torment in the lake of fire
[quote author=Kobojunkie post=107562266]
2. Unbelievers have no reason to worry about the punishment of a God - it's our fate from the moment we are born to cease to exist right from the point of conception. The only way to escape that fate is to believe in God.

What then one earth is the difference between the righteous and the wicked on earth if ALL are already under this judgement (not unbelievers alone)

Kobojunkie:

3. Physical death, for the unbelievers, is a ceasing of an existence.

* There are mentions of of second death, this in the writings of some of the apostles, but this seems in reference to the punishment of Hell.

Why would Jesus ask us not to be afraid of one who can only kill our body?
Apparently, the best God can do is kill the body just like a human being can do to another person.

TenQ:
1. What then one earth is the difference between the righteous and the wicked on earth if ALL are already under this judgement (not unbelievers alone)

2. Why would Jesus ask us not to be afraid of one who can only kill our body? Apparently, the best God can do is kill the body just like a human being can do to another person.

1. We were all of us gentiles born under that judgement - unbelievers- , however,when we chose to believe in Jesus Christ, we are redeemed from the condemnation of Sin which is Death and bestowed with eternal life instead. So those who believe in Jesus Christ (both the wicked and the righteous in Jesus Christ) have eternal life.

Now as for the difference between the wicked and righteous- both believe in Jesus Christ- here on earth, apart from their fruits, there is not much difference. Jesus Christ elaborated this through several parables particularly the parable of wheat and tares - Matthew 13 vs 24 - 30. In the parable,
He explained that the righteous(wheat) and wicked(weed or tares) are both allowed to grow together until harvest, after which they are then judged and either rewarded or punished.

2. I believe you have Jesus's in Matthew 10 vs 27 - 29 figured upside-down. Those who can kill your body alone are men. God is able to destroy both the body and the soul. His Judgement, as given from the time of Adam condemns the mind, body and soul of men who reject Him - unbelievers. And His judgment to come through Jesus Christ condemns the body, mind and soul of the wicked to eternal damnation in Hell.

Kobojunkie:
1. We were all of us gentiles born under that judgement - unbelievers- , however,when we chose to believe in Jesus Christ, we are redeemed from the condemnation of Sin which is Death and bestowed with eternal life instead. So those who believe in Jesus Christ (both the wicked and the righteous in Jesus Christ) have eternal life.

Now as for the difference between the wicked and righteous- both believe in Jesus Christ- here on earth, apart from their fruits, there is not much difference. Jesus Christ elaborated this through several parables particularly the parable of wheat and tares - Matthew 13 vs 24 - 30. In the parable,
He explained that the righteous(wheat) and wicked(weed or tares) are both allowed to grow together until harvest, after which they are then judged and either rewarded or punished.

2. I believe you have Jesus's in Matthew 10 vs 27 - 29 figured upside-down. Those who can kill your body alone are men. God is able to destroy both the body and the soul. His Judgement, as given from the time of Adam condemns the mind, body and soul of men who reject Him - unbelievers. And His judgment to come through Jesus Christ condemns the body, mind and soul of the wicked to eternal damnation in Hell.

Mathew 10:28-28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
How is the soul killed by God in Hell?
Isn't it the mind of the body?
Is the mind a living entity?

I ask because the mind/soul cannot exist without the body1

TenQ:

Mathew 10:28-28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
How is the soul killed by God in Hell?
Isn't it the mind of the body?
Is the mind a living entity?

I ask because the mind/soul cannot exist without the body1

The soul can exist without body. It is the body that cannot exist without the soul.

TenQ:
Mathew 10:28-28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
1. How is the soul killed by God in Hell?
Isn't it the mind of the body?
Is the mind a living entity?

2. I ask because the mind/soul cannot exist without the body1

1. I don't understand your question? For this, can we define a human as consisting of a
■ mind(thoughts and memories),
■ body(physical vessel on earth),
■ and soul(consciousness).

When God condemned men to die in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 for instance, He decreed the destruction of all aspects of man - mind, body and soul ceased to exist upon death, as it was before its conception - dust to dust.

The mind is a part of the living being. So please help me understand your questions here, or at least the reasons behind them.

2. I also don't understand where the idea that a mind/soul cannot exist without the body comes from.

Dtruthspeaker:


If your version or copy of your Bible was God sanctioned, it would be in the hands of every reasonable person and the contents will prevail over all arguments.

Anyway for me, I know as my Co learned senior brother Paul said, "where there are Laws, there must be just is. And where there is just is, there shall be punishment for guilt,. And where there is punishment for guilt, there must be a place of perdition and punishment, Subject to The Direction and Command of The Law Giver!

You spoke well again. Many are are so blind with religion that they can't dig deep and see that all these things I say are in their Bible.
The book was given to Daniel to seal till the time of the end when many shall run to and fro (in time of trouble- the great tribulation). Many of the prophets also attests that the Vision will only speak in the time of the end. The Messiah also gave a sign (tribulation) as a time that the true Gospel will be preached in Mathew 24. Rev 14:6; 18:12 all proved that a certain Gospel will be preached at endtime. That Gospel is not what you Christians preach today. What you all preach had been altered by the Vatican who gave you religion. Read the book of Daniel, an abomination of desolation (Abomination of Denominations an awful horror) was set up when the true Christ was murdered. They unleashed a fake Christ to the world, turned the teachings of the true Christ and credited it to that false Messiah the world follow today. They changed times, seasons, His true image and created Religions which is controlled by them to decieve the world. They created both Islam and Christianity and make it look like both are different. They make you, the choosen ppl hate and kill yourselves cod of religion - Daniel 7:25. None of you know that the Creator and His son created no Religion. All these they did is the reason the original scripture was sealed cos the lies must pass out before the truth comes to overtakes it. What they wrote to you as endtime was actually the time for all their lies they used to decieve the choosen people to pass out. An a great truth hidden for a long time revealed. It's is the revelation of a lost Truth. Religion was created to decieve and it will die when the one to expose the lies comes you all will see.

My friend, this is not ranting, it's the truth. Many who are called will know spiritually thru dreams and visions and they will preach the true gospel. The true children are not in religion. They will hear when they are called. As I tell you, many are being called. The truth must be restored- that is the correction of the lies they told us before the end.
It's even written that at endtime, the knowledge of the Creator will be poured out so ppl can know Him and seek Him. This your world is ruled by false gods and they control everything thru science, politics , religion etc. Come out from religion. That's when the truth will start making sense to you. Seek the Creator yourself. His Spirit in you is what connect s you to Him not Religion or any book or pastor. Do you know that Books were written cos ppl fail to heed. It's was formally in our heart and sealed in our conscience. And after all is said and done, it shall be so again.

MaxInDHouse:


Where is it written?
I can't believe it's inside the Bible because you'll have to TEACH to convince anyone.

I have taught you a lot of things. Go ponder on them or follow what you believe.

Kobojunkie:
1. I don't understand your question? For this, can we define a human as consisting of a
■ mind(thoughts and memories),
■ body(physical vessel on earth),
■ and soul(consciousness).

When God condemned men to die in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 for instance, He decreed the destruction of all aspects of man - mind, body and soul ceased to exist upon death, as it was before its conception - dust to dust.

The mind is a part of the living being. So please help me understand your questions here, or at least the reasons behind them.

2. I also don't understand where the idea that a mind/soul cannot exist without the body comes from.

Thanks for the explanation.
What I have gotten here is that
1. When man kills a fellow man, he kills the mind, body and soul of man.
2. It looks like there is no difference between what man can do to another man and what God can do to a man in terms of death

What is so special about fearing God when apart from resurrection, God seem to have no other power over man?

Truvelisback:
The soul can exist without body. It is the body that cannot exist without the soul.

You are very correct and I perfectly agree with you.

However, I am discussing with those who think that death is the end of existence.

TenQ:

Thanks for the explanation.
What I have gotten here is that
1. When man kills a fellow man, he kills the mind, body and soul of man.
2. It looks like there is no difference between what man can do to another man and what God can do to a man in terms of death

3. What is so special about fearing God when apart from resurrection, God seem to have no other power over man?

1. When a man kills a fellow man, all he does is kill the physical body of the man, a body which God, if He chooses, can raise back up.

When a man dies, God is the one who decides the fate of the man - mind, body and soul.

2. It may look like that to the physical man, but God is the one who ultimately decides the fate of men.

3. God has power over all men. The wicked and the righteous both exist in God's Kingdom and He, Jesus Christ, is Law in His Kingdom , is He not?
They are ruled over by Him even while they are here on earth. Only He has chosen to delay judgment until after they are done in this world.... harvest time.

Kobojunkie:
1. When a man kills a fellow man, all he does is kill the physical body of the man, a body which God, if He chooses, can raise back up.

When a man dies, God is the one who decides the fate of the man - mind, body and soul.

2. It may look like that to the physical man, but God is the one who ultimately decides the fate of men.

3. God has power over all men. The wicked and the righteous both exist in God's Kingdom and He, Jesus Christ, is Law in His Kingdom , is He not?
They are ruled over by Him even while they are here on earth. Only He has chosen to delay judgment until after they are done in this world.... harvest time.

With reference to your explanation of what happens at death of a person

Kobojunkie:
1. I don't understand your question? For this, can we define a human as consisting of a
■ mind(thoughts and memories),
■ body(physical vessel on earth),
■ and soul(consciousness).

When God condemned men to die in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22 for instance, He decreed the destruction of all aspects of man - mind, body and soul ceased to exist upon death, as it was before its conception - dust to dust.

The mind is a part of the living being. So please help me understand your questions here, or at least the reasons behind them.

2. I also don't understand where the idea that a mind/soul cannot exist without the body comes from.

You have said that
1. The mind/soul cannot exist without the body
2. At death, there is destruction of all the aspects of man "- mind, body and soul ceased to exist upon death, as it was before its conception - dust to dust."

So, you can see that just like I said in the preceding post,
1. When man kills a fellow man, he kills the mind, body and soul of man.
2. It looks like there is no difference between what man can do to another man and what God can do to a man in terms of death

3. What is so special about fearing God when apart from resurrection, God seem to have no other power over man?

Are these still in harmoney with
Mathew 10:28-28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

TenQ:

With reference to your explanation of what happens at death of a person

You have said that
1. The mind/soul cannot exist without the body
2. At death, there is destruction of all the aspects of man "- mind, body and soul ceased to exist upon death, as it was before its conception - dust to dust."

So, you can see that just like I said in the preceding post,
3. When man kills a fellow man, he kills the mind, body and soul of man.
4. It looks like there is no difference between what man can do to another man and what God can do to a man in terms of death

5. What is so special about fearing God when apart from resurrection, God seem to have no other power over man?

Are these still in harmoney with
Mathew 10:28-28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

1. I never stated that that the mind/soul cannot exist without the body. That assumption is wholly yours. Rather, what I have stated even till now is that God condemned those who do not believe in Him unbelievers (mind, body and soul) - they cease to exist when they die, this in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22. That cessation is as decreed by God and is by His power, not man's.

2. As decreed by God, the being (mind, body and soul) of those who do not believe in Him - unbelievers - ceases when they die - Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22. Now, we don't know at what point in time that process of cessation commences and is completed. What we know is know is a body takes time to decay back into its elements aka dust. We have no indication when it is the soul and mind of man begins or ends.

---

3. When a man kills a fellow man, he kills the body, just as Jesus Christ said. What happens afterwards to the one who has been killed is wholly determined by God's Law.

■God is able to reverse the death of that body in case of a miracle
■ In the absence of a miracle, and if the victim happened to be a unbeliever , his body, mind and soul, subject to God's curse, would cease to exist
■ if the dead man had been a believer(wicked or righteous), his mind, body and soul would remain to be reconstituted in the resurrection when Jesus Christ returns
Here again, notice that the assumption that a man is able to kill the body, mind and soul is wholly yours.

4. There is a huge difference, only you don't seem to care to see it.

5. Jesus Christ's urgings was to those who believe in Him. He called on them to fear God, the one whose Word determines the fate of a man, whether dead or alive - Matthew 10 vs 28 - 30. God is the judge as far as the end of a man - see (3) above.

Kobojunkie:
1. I never stated that that the mind/soul cannot exist without the body. That assumption is wholly yours. Rather, what I have stated even till now is that God condemned those who do not believe in Him unbelievers (mind, body and soul) - they cease to exist when they die, this in Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22. That cessation is as decreed by God and is by His power, not man's.

2. As decreed by God, the being (mind, body and soul) of those who do not believe in Him - unbelievers - ceases when they die - Genesis 3 vs 19 - 22. Now, we don't know at what point in time that process of cessation commences and is completed. What we know is know is a body takes time to decay back into its elements aka dust. We have no indication when it is the soul and mind of man begins or ends.

---

I think you still say the same thing yet denying the conclusion.
I am sure you don't believe in the progressive kind of death where a man's body first dies then the soul/spirit die progressively after. Abel, Adam and Eve are surely dead: Is it only their body that has died?
If ALL their body, soul and spirit have ceased to be at death, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion than that humans can cause the body, soul and spirit to cease existing (except that they don't have the power of resurrection)

Kobojunkie:

3. When a man kills a fellow man, he kills the body, just as Jesus Christ said. What happens afterwards to the one who has been killed is wholly determined by God's Law.

■God is able to reverse the death of that body in case of a miracle
■ In the absence of a miracle, and if the victim happened to be a unbeliever , his body, mind and soul, subject to God's curse, would cease to exist
■ if the dead man had been a believer(wicked or righteous), his mind, body and soul would remain to be reconstituted in the resurrection when Jesus Christ returns
Here again, notice that the assumption that a man is able to kill the body, mind and soul is wholly yours.

[size=18pt]The definition of death as Cessation of existence raises no other conclusion except that man is able to kill the body, mind and soul [/size]
You even reinforced it by saying at resurrection a "man's mind, body and soul would remain to be reconstituted in the resurrection when Jesus Christ returns" : meaning that before resurrection, man has the power to put to death the body, soul and spirit of man (as they all cease to exist) until Christ returns to raise them up.

It still connote that the only diffference between God and man is the fact that God can resurrect a dead person.

Kobojunkie:

4. There is a huge difference, only you don't seem to care to see it.

5. Jesus Christ's urgings was to those who believe in Him. He called on them to fear God, the one whose Word determines the fate of a man, whether dead or alive - Matthew 10 vs 28 - 30. God is the judge as far as the end of a man - see (3) above.

Jesus clearly says that men can ONLY kill the Body (by your definition: cause the body to cease to exist), but cannot kill the soul/spirit of man.
The implication is that at physical death caused by natural causes, the soul/spirit of the dead person are still ALIVE and has NOT ceased existence.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

This scripture above buttresses it. The Soul and Spirit of man does not cease to exist after death caused by any natural or human cause.

---

bobestman:

You spoke well again. Many are are so blind with religion that they can't dig deep and see that all these things I say are in their Bible.
The book was given to Daniel to seal till the time of the end when many shall run to and fro (in time of trouble- the great tribulation). Many of the prophets also attests that the Vision will only speak in the time of the end. The Messiah also gave a sign (tribulation) as a time that the true Gospel will be preached in Mathew 24. Rev 14:6; 18:12 all proved that a certain Gospel will be preached at endtime. That Gospel is not what you Christians preach today. What you all preach had been altered by the Vatican who gave you religion. Read the book of Daniel, an abomination of desolation (Abomination of Denominations an awful horror) was set up when the true Christ was murdered. They unleashed a fake Christ to the world, turned the teachings of the true Christ and credited it to that false Messiah the world follow today. They changed times, seasons, His true image and created Religions which is controlled by them to decieve the world. They created both Islam and Christianity and make it look like both are different. They make you, the choosen ppl hate and kill yourselves cod of religion - Daniel 7:25. None of you know that the Creator and His son created no Religion. All these they did is the reason the original scripture was sealed cos the lies must pass out before the truth comes to overtakes it. What they wrote to you as endtime was actually the time for all their lies they used to decieve the choosen people to pass out. An a great truth hidden for a long time revealed. It's is the revelation of a lost Truth. Religion was created to decieve and it will die when the one to expose the lies comes you all will see.

My friend, this is not ranting, it's the truth. Many who are called will know spiritually thru dreams and visions and they will preach the true gospel. The true children are not in religion. They will hear when they are called. As I tell you, many are being called. The truth must be restored- that is the correction of the lies they told us before the end.
It's even written that at endtime, the knowledge of the Creator will be poured out so ppl can know Him and seek Him. This your world is ruled by false gods and they control everything thru science, politics , religion etc. Come out from religion. That's when the truth will start making sense to you. Seek the Creator yourself. His Spirit in you is what connect s you to Him not Religion or any book or pastor. Do you know that Books were written cos ppl fail to heed. It's was formally in our heart and sealed in our conscience. And after all is said and done, it shall be so again.

Yes, the whole world has been sunk into Fraud and Massive Deception as you said God's Laws have been altered and Kept Covered.

So, as Written, "the secret of The Lord is with them that Fear Him". So I am here to burst all Lies and Replace with The Truth, to the best of my ability!

TenQ:

Some people think that the fact that God is LOVE, he would also be a fluffy teddy Bear kind of God.
They assume that all humans are Gods Children.

If a person is NOT a Child of God, then who is he?

They did not see what Job knew
Job 3:10 (b)
" What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, AND SHALL WE NOT RECEIVE EVIL?"

The Bible keeps saying The Right Hand of The Lord, and people have not pondered what is in The Left Hand!

Dtruthspeaker:


They did not see what Job knew
Job 3:10 (b)
" What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, AND SHALL WE NOT RECEIVE EVIL?"

The Bible keeps saying The Right Hand of The Lord, and people have not pondered what is in The Left Hand!

If the righteous will be rewarded (apart from having eternal life) ACCORDING to how they have done, how much more the wicked!

TenQ:

If the righteous will be rewarded (apart from having eternal life) ACCORDING to how they have done, how much more the wicked!

O How much more, the wicked!

TenQ:

1. I think you still say the same thing yet denying the conclusion.
I am sure you don't believe in the progressive kind of death where a man's body first dies then the soul/spirit die progressively after. Abel, Adam and Eve are surely dead: Is it only their body that has died?
If ALL their body, soul and spirit have ceased to be at death, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion than that humans can cause the body, soul and spirit to cease existing (except that they don't have the power of resurrection)

[size=18pt]The definition of death as Cessation of existence raises no other conclusion except that man is able to kill the body, mind and soul [/size]
You even reinforced it by saying at resurrection a "man's mind, body and soul would remain to be reconstituted in the resurrection when Jesus Christ returns" : meaning that before resurrection, man has the power to put to death the body, soul and spirit of man (as they all cease to exist) until Christ returns to raise them up.

It still connote that the only diffference between God and man is the fact that God can resurrect a dead person.


Jesus clearly says that men can ONLY kill the Body (by your definition: cause the body to cease to exist), but cannot kill the soul/spirit of man.
The implication is that at physical death caused by natural causes, the soul/spirit of the dead person are still ALIVE and has NOT ceased existence.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

This scripture above buttresses it. The Soul and Spirit of man does not cease to exist after death caused by any natural or human cause.

---

1. Where do you keep coming up with these assumptions from? I didn't say anything about death being progressive, nor did I mention such thing as a "progressive death". Instead, cessation(dust to dust) is what I suggested could be progressive and I used the physical decay of a dead body for an example to explain why I think so. .

DEATH, as a curse, is of God. Whatever humans do, God's Law still decides the outcome.

bobestman:

I have taught you a lot of things. Go ponder on them or follow what you believe.

My friend you are only arguing here, teaching is about result so if there's no result of what think you're teaching then you haven't taught a single thing!

TenQ:

I believe I asked you several direct question to help you slow down and analyse the scriptures. Let me reiterate

Your questions stems from the teachings of the churches of Christendom so if you truly want the answers it's you that needs to calm down.

TenQ:

Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night —those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
1. What is a TORMENT knowing that the dead knows NOTHING!

The torment means something else because Jesus the same person revealing this sacred secrets have used this same symbolic term when he was with his disciples.
Remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? That parable need to be understood but most Bible readers just dismiss it and took it literally. Judgment hasn't come when Jesus was on earth neither has it come now the dead has not been resurrection so where did Jesus got that story?
Well he was giving the parable to show how tormented the Pharisees will be when he's gone and everyone began noticing that the God of Israel has approved Jesus' group.
So if you're taking the words literally then what about the sea out of which a beast having seven heads suffice? What about the harlot sitting on the beast? What about the angels pouring out the things in their vessels?

TenQ:

2. Can I torment a dead cat?

The dead knows nothing neither do they feel anything that's what God's word says about the dead {Ecclesiastes 9:5-10} so what you're reading shouldn't be taken literally.

TenQ:

3. What does it mean that they have No Rest day and night?

This simply means whoever remembers their acts will fear not to be like them

TenQ:

4. If the dead are deemed to have slept, how come these particular set of dead people have no rest? Job 14:10-12
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?

They are facing eternal punishment because they will not be resurrected. All of us are under the same punishment {Romans 3:23} but due to our faith in Christ Jesus we will be pardoned and return life during the resurrection {John 11:25} but as for these people their own punishment is forever, they will not be remembered! Revelations 20:15

TenQ:

5. Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?
Five separate question that deserve short answers

Punishment is what God's word called death {Genesis 2:17; 3:19 compare to Romans 6:23} because it's not in God's good plan that humans should die {Ezekiel 33:11} it's Adam's rebellion that brought this punishment upon mankind! Romans 5:12
If you truly want to know what others believe i will advise you not to seek short answers because you can't give short answers and think you've helped someone who doesn't understand God's word, you'll either keep yours and leave them to keep theirs. True Christians are patient when it's time to help others grasp what is written in God's word! 1Peter 3:15

May you have PEACE!

From Genesis to Malachi the idea of eternal torment is not found in any written document but right from the time Jesus began his earthly ministry he made use of so many symbolic terms just the way Bible said this wonderful counselor will do when he arrives! Psalms 78:2
Jesus is the same person who revealed what is in the Bible book of Revelation (using symbolic terms) {Revelations 1:1} therefore all those taking what Jesus says literally will either misinterpret it or ignore him altogether {John 6:61-66} only those who are interested in knowing will stick to him in order for them to get the understanding of what he said {Matthew 13:10} so whether they understand it immediately or not what matters to them is the righteousness they can perceive in Jesus! John 6:68

Let's take the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man for a case study, Jesus mentioned many things in that parable:

Lazarus the beggar with sours all over his body, rich man who has so much material things, Lazarus is always at the rich man's gate, he desires eating whatever falls from the rich man's table, dogs often comes to lick the wounds in Lazarus's body, then both of them died, Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom, rich man in a place of torment, rich man begs Abraham to instruct Lazarus to deep his finger into water and cool his own thirst, Abraham said there is a chasm between them so nobody can cross, rich man begs Abraham to send Lazarus back to his own brothers who are many in number to warn them, Abraham said "they have Moses and the prophets", rich man objects "they may not listen to all those ones but if Lazarus (a dead man) should talk to them they will yield to the warning" , Abraham said "if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets neither will they listen if someone from the dead speak with them"

All these are symbolic terms because by the time Jesus walked the earth Abraham is still a dead man in his grave, God's word says the dead are unconscious {Ecclesiastes 9:5-6} Lazarus (beggar) can't be one of God's children {Psalms 1:23; 37:25} the rich man never did anything evil neither was Lazarus doing anything good so something is behind their change in condition, Moses never lived with other prophets and during his lifetime there's was no mention of Lazarus.

So it must have been one of Jesus' parables.
Thanks to God for sending His Holy Spirit to help us interpret all these symbolic terms otherwise we will also be a part of the world who keeps arguing on what Jesus said! Daniel 12:10

TenQ I believe you’re reading these scriptures with a mindset that has been tainted with the hellfire dogma.

So please permit to chip in my 2cents !
You’ve been quoting Revelation 14:11 and using it as a basis for a hellfire but there’s something you’re missing if we’re to be honest. Do you need my input on the matter ?

TenQ:

I believe I asked you several direct question to help you slow down and analyse the scriptures. Let me reiterate
Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night —those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
1. What is a TORMENT knowing that the dead knows NOTHING!
2. Can I torment a dead cat?
3. What does it mean that they have No Rest day and night?
4. If the dead are deemed to have slept, how come these particular set of dead people have no rest? Job 14:10-12
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
5. Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?
Five separate question that deserve short answers