TenQ:

Hello Bro,
I find it amazing how you find it convenient to disregard some words of the scripture.


Rev 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night —those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
What is a TORMENT knowing that the dead knows NOTHING!
Can I torment a dead cat?
What does it mean that they have No Rest day and night?
If the dead are deemed to have slept, how come these particular set of dead people have no rest?
Job 14:10-12


Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?

Let's take a look at the most favorable Jehovah's witness' doctrine of the inexistence of the Lake of Fire (as you prefer it to be referred to to avert misinterpretation)- Jeremiah 7

Jehovah sets the tone or context for this chapter in the first three verses:

Hear the Lord's message, all you people in Judah. You come through this gate to worship the Lord.” ’ The great, powerful God of Israel says, "Change the things that you do. Do the right things''.

The introduction of this chapter reveals the profane worship Israel had descended into. Of the cluster of cultic sins Jehovah had against them, what seems to be the most detestable is the sacrifice (by fire) of their firstborn children; it brings to mind the Deuteronomistic prohibition laid out to the children of Israel.

Leviticus 18:3,21 says: "Do not follow their practices...And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to make them pass through the fire to Molech; neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am Jehovah"

Here is what Jeremiah 7:31 says, "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

The catch word for them and those who agree to that doctrine is this: nor did it enter my mind. What were the people doing in the Valley? Worship! Did it ever enter the mind of Jehovah to command that they offer their seed even His own seed in their sacrifice to Him? Never! Throughout all scripture, we know when God refers to His seed, He refers to His offspring (Though seed means several things including His word).

Then we hear God say to the wicked (who are not His seed): "then bodies will lie scattered on the ground. Birds and wild animals will come and eat, and no one will be around to scare them off"- Still in the same Jeremiah 7. How did these people die? By fire and much worse. Let's look at seven chapters later: "And they shall bear their punishment...“Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its people and their animals if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts; suppose I were to bring war against the land, and I sent enemy armies to destroy both people and animals. Suppose I were to pour out my fury by sending an epidemic into the land, and the disease killed people and animals alike. For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!"

I see that God sends Brimstone against the wicked because of their sin. If Jehovah were to annihilate those people using warfare, those who propagate this "mindless" (regarding Jere. 7:31) should know that those who invaded Jerusalem employed Brimstone in their siege-warfare. (FYI: Brimstone meaning 'sulfur' was first recorded in English in the early 14th century. It probably comes from words meaning 'burning and fire')

If the Lake of fire is never something God had in mind, Jesus should be accused of sensationalism; didn't He say: "whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”

Acehart:

If the Lake of fire is never something God had in mind, Jesus should be accused of sensationalism; didn't He say: "whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”

Jesus said so many things in PARABLES {Matthew 13:13, 34-35} and Daniel have hinted us that when the Messiah arrives most people will never grasp his teachings {Daniel 12:10 compare to John 6:61-66}
WHY? The Psalmist answered because he will speak in Parables! Psalms 78:2
So if you're quoting Jesus word for word but don't want to rely on the Spirit of God which is the one that can make the word active in the midst of believers {John 16:12-13} you will just continue to argue among yourselves yet claiming you belong to Jesus! Luke 11:23

It's by their FRUITS {Matthew 7:16-18} that Jesus said not their words {Matthew 7:21-23} so try to figure out the group of people practicing what Jesus taught then whatever they tell you about Jesus' words know that they fully understand that's why the FRUIT of God's Holy Spirit is evident in their gathering, and anything you say against them is futile! Galatians 5:22-23

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus said so many things in PARABLES {Matthew 13:13, 34-35} and Daniel have hinted us that when the Messiah arrives most people will never grasp his teachings {Daniel 12:10 compare to John 6:61-66}
WHY? The Psalmist answered because he will speak in Parables! Psalms 78:2
So if you're quoting Jesus word for word but don't want to rely on the Spirit of God which is the one that can make the word active in the midst of believers {John 16:12-13} you will just continue to argue among yourselves yet claiming you belong to Jesus! Luke 11:23

It's by their FRUITS {Matthew 7:16-18} that Jesus said not their words {Matthew 7:21-23} so try to figure out the group of people practicing what Jesus taught then whatever they tell you about Jesus' words know that they fully understand that's why the FRUIT of God's Holy Spirit is evident in their gathering, and anything you say against them is futile! Galatians 5:22-23

Then I ask you this as one who relies on the Spirit of God: What does Jesus mean in Matthew 5:22?

Acehart:

Then I ask you this as one who relies on the Spirit of God: What does Jesus mean in Matthew 5:22?

However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; and whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna.

Jesus is warming the Christians not to become wrathful against their fellow believers because those who practice such a thing will not inherit God's kingdom.
The word mistranslated "HellFire" is "Gehenna" it's a valley behind the wall of Jerusalem, it is used as a symbol of complete destruction so dead animals and condemned criminals are thrown there so that the fire and brimstone there will utterly destroy their bodies. Of course the Jews believe that such ones will not be remembered during the resurrection of the dead.
That's why Joseph Arimathea and Nicodemus asked for Jesus' body because he's not a criminal, but as for those two thieves Gehenna is where their dead bodies will be thrown!

MaxInDHouse:


However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; and whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna.

Jesus is warming the Christians not to become wrathful against their fellow believers because those who practice such a thing will not inherit God's kingdom.
The word mistranslated "HellFire" is "Gehenna" it's a valley behind the wall of Jerusalem, it is used as a symbol of complete destruction so dead animals and condemned criminals are thrown there so that the fire and brimstone there will utterly destroy their bodies. Of course the Jews believe that such ones will not be remembered during the resurrection of the dead.
That's why Joseph Arimathea and Nicodemus asked for Jesus' body because he's not a criminal, but as for those two thieves Gehenna is where their dead bodies will be thrown!

Before Jesus came, was there a law that sentenced one to death on the basis of calling another a fool?

Acehart:

Before Jesus came, was there a law that sentenced one to death on the basis of calling another a fool?

NO! Jesus is only teaching his listeners how to avoid trouble {Proverbs 17:14} for instance Jesus also said that a man who keeps looking at a woman lustfully is guilty of Adultery meaning he should be stoned to death for doing that. It's not in God's law like that.
Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant and his teachings are the laws that comes along with that New Covenant, so it's either people accept Jesus' teachings which will lead them to everlasting life {John 3:16} or stick to the Old Covenant which doesn't come with the promise of life everlasting.

MaxInDHouse:


NO! Jesus is only teaching his listeners how to avoid trouble {Proverbs 17:14} for instance Jesus also said that a man who keeps looking at a woman lustfully is guilty of Adultery meaning he should be stoned to death for doing that. It's not in God's law like that.
Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant and his teachings are the laws that comes along with that New Covenant, so it's either people accept Jesus' teachings which will lead them to everlasting life {John 3:16} or stick to the Old Covenant which doesn't come with the promise of life everlasting.

You should know that an adulterer can only be sentenced to death if the other party consented. So, you are wrong here.

It would be right to say that there wasn’t a death sentence for slander before and after Jesus’ words. Even John the Baptist wasn’t charged to any court based on his “slander”. So what jurisprudence was Jesus referring to- man’s or God’s?

Acehart:

You should know that an adulterer can only be sentenced to death if the other party consented. So, you are wrong here.

Sure an adulterer can only be sentenced if an accomplice is found because one can't commit adultery alone nah. But in this case Jesus isn't talking about what is obvious to humans rather Jesus is talking about the heart as in what people thinks before taking action!
Luke 6:45

Acehart:

It would be right to say that there wasn’t a death sentence for slander before and after Jesus’ words. Even John the Baptist wasn’t charged to any court based on his “slander”. So what jurisprudence was Jesus referring to- man’s or God’s?

Jesus is not referring to any known law rather he as the one who will judge both the living and the dead is teaching us how to avoid wrong thoughts which often leads to sin!

Dtruthspeaker:


They did not see what Job knew
Job 3:10 (b)
" What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God, AND SHALL WE NOT RECEIVE EVIL?"

The Bible keeps saying The Right Hand of The Lord, and people have not pondered what is in The Left Hand!

If all God can do to satan for corrupting the whole world is just to kill him (annihilate him), you wonder if there is appropriate justice served for the multitude of wailing caused by him.

Dtruthspeaker:


O How much more, the wicked!

Of cause.
If the reward of the righteous is endless, how much more the reward of the wicked

Kobojunkie:
1. Where do you keep coming up with these assumptions from? I didn't say anything about death being progressive, nor did I mention such thing as a "progressive death". Instead, cessation(dust to dust) is what I suggested could be progressive and I used the physical decay of a dead body for an example to explain why I think so. .

DEATH, as a curse, is of God. Whatever humans do, God's Law still decides the outcome.

I said: I am sure you don't believe in the progressive kind of death where a man's body first dies then the soul/spirit die progressively after.

Apart from resurrection, there is NOT one difference between the kind of death caused by God and that cause by men by your explanations
1. Death Caused by God: Body ceases to exist, Soul ceases to exist, Spirit ceases to exist
2. Death Caused by Man: Body ceases to exist, Soul ceases to exist, Spirit ceases to exist
I will appreciate if you can correct one of the two statements above and there will be clarity to your position

TenQ:

If all God can do to satan for corrupting the whole world is just to kill him (annihilate him), you wonder if there is appropriate justice served for the multitude of wailing caused by him.

Satan is one of God's spirit sons, Adam and Eve connived with him to rebel against God so the three rebels will die but then God wants Adam's descendants to learn from Adam's evil deed that's why God didn't destroy Satan instantly. Moreover Satan asserted that humans will not worship God willingly unless God bribe them, he also said humans can rule over themselves successfully without God's intervention that's why God decided to give Satan the chance to prove all what he said!
But today nobody can deny the fact that all what Satan said is FALSE.

God is not interested in tormenting his children (including Satan) but since they don't want Him to guide them they will continue to hurt themselves and others so the best thing is to send them back to non-existence and that's exactly what God had in mind! Romans 6:23

TenQ:

I said: I am sure you don't believe in the progressive kind of death where a man's body first dies then the soul/spirit die progressively after.

Apart from resurrection, there is NOT one difference between the kind of death caused by God and that cause by men by your explanations
1. Death Caused by God: Body ceases to exist, Soul ceases to exist, Spirit ceases to exist
2. Death Caused by Man: Body ceases to exist, Soul ceases to exist, Spirit ceases to exist
I will appreciate if you can correct one of the two statements above and there will be clarity to your position

Jesus Christ in His teachings explained severally that death is not in any way caused by men. None of the birds can drop dead without the Father first knowing of it. A man can kill another man but only because God permits it. And as far as Cessation of the victim is concerned, God is the one who also decides that too.

So, again, what Jesus Christ is telling you in Matthew 10 vs 28 - 30 is this... do not fear men but instead fear only God for it is He who rules over men, Death and eternity.

MaxInDHouse:

Your questions stems from the teachings of the churches of Christendom so if you truly want the answers it's you that needs to calm down.

No Sir. I follow the bible and make up mind mind by what it says.

MaxInDHouse:

The torment means something else because Jesus the same person revealing this sacred secrets have used this same symbolic term when he was with his disciples.
Remember the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? That parable need to be understood but most Bible readers just dismiss it and took it literally. Judgment hasn't come when Jesus was on earth neither has it come now the dead has not been resurrection so where did Jesus got that story?
Well he was giving the parable to show how tormented the Pharisees will be when he's gone and everyone began noticing that the God of Israel has approved Jesus' group.
So if you're taking the words literally then what about the sea out of which a beast having seven heads suffice? What about the harlot sitting on the beast? What about the angels pouring out the things in their vessels?

What else with the SYMBOL Torment mean according to this parable.

MaxInDHouse:

The dead knows nothing neither do they feel anything that's what God's word says about the dead {Ecclesiastes 9:5-10} so what you're reading shouldn't be taken literally.

Meaning that it is useless tormenting a dead Cat.
Jesus knowing that Lazarus, Abraham and the rich man were DEAD used the word Torment.
Please what else can it mean.
Is the torment the state of Unconsciousness?

MaxInDHouse:

This simply means whoever remembers their acts will fear not to be like them

Since everybody will die and in this case Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man, ALL having the same state of UNCONSCIOUSNESS, why should I be afraid?
If there is no torment, there is not a single difference between Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man: mind you, Jesus didn't even refer to resurrection (as the rich mans brothers were stive alive then)

MaxInDHouse:

They are facing eternal punishment because they will not be resurrected. All of us are under the same punishment {Romans 3:23} but due to our faith in Christ Jesus we will be pardoned and return life during the resurrection {John 11:25} but as for these people their own punishment is forever, they will not be remembered! Revelations 20:15

Can one punish the already dead?
It seems that God will be magnanimous to satan to by granting him a fast instant speedy death!

MaxInDHouse:

Punishment is what God's word called death {Genesis 2:17; 3:19 compare to Romans 6:23} because it's not in God's good plan that humans should die {Ezekiel 33:11} it's Adam's rebellion that brought this punishment upon mankind! Romans 5:12
If you truly want to know what others believe i will advise you not to seek short answers because you can't give short answers and think you've helped someone who doesn't understand God's word, you'll either keep yours and leave them to keep theirs. True Christians are patient when it's time to help others grasp what is written in God's word! 1Peter 3:15

May you have PEACE!

Your problem is thinking that death is cessation of life whereas, death is just a disconnection/separation of man as God desinged him to be
Physical death= Disconnection of a man's Body from the Union of his Soul and Spirit which returns to God
Mk 12:26
26 But concerning the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the Book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!

Spiritual Death: Disconnection of a Spirit from the Spirit of God
Second Death: Eternal Disconnection of the totality of a being from God

TenQ:

No Sir. I follow the bible and make up mind mind by what it says.
What else with the SYMBOL Torment mean according to this parable.
Meaning that it is useless tormenting a dead Cat.
Jesus knowing that Lazarus, Abraham and the rich man were DEAD used the word Torment.
Please what else can it mean.
Is the torment the state of Unconsciousness?
Since everybody will die and in this case Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man, ALL having the same state of UNCONSCIOUSNESS, why should I be afraid?
If there is no torment, there is not a single difference between Abraham, Lazarus and the Rich man: mind you, Jesus didn't even refer to resurrection (as the rich mans brothers were stive alive then) Can one punish the already dead?
It seems that God will be magnanimous to satan to by granting him a fast instant speedy death! Your problem is thinking that death is cessation of life whereas, death is just a disconnection/separation of man as God desinged him to be
Physical death= Disconnection of a man's Body from the Union of his Soul and Spirit which returns to God
Mk 12:26
26 But concerning the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the Book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!
Spiritual Death: Disconnection of a Spirit from the Spirit of God
Second Death: Eternal Disconnection of the totality of a being from God

Jesus used that parable to tell how badly things will turn out for the first century self-righteous Jewish leaders, Abraham and Moses never lived the same time, meanwhile Abraham is part of the dead that will be resurrected, when Jesus said they are all living to Him (God) this simply means God keeps their names in His memory book for resurrection not that the dead are conscious somewhere! Revelations 20:15

If you're still interested in knowing the meaning of those symbolic terms i'm still very much around!

MaxInDHouse:

Sure an adulterer can only be sentenced if an accomplice is found because one can't commit adultery alone nah. But in this case Jesus isn't talking about what is obvious to humans rather Jesus is talking about the heart as in what people thinks before taking action!
Luke 6:45

Jesus is not referring to any known law rather he as the one who will judge both the living and the dead is teaching us how to avoid wrong thoughts which often leads to sin!

You knew the right answer but you chose the beat around the jungle. Who judges the heart? If Jesus was referring to an unknown law, as you have said, could that law have prescribed judicial sentences for all crimes? Those who found guilty, where would they serve their time?

DappaD:
TenQ I believe you’re reading these scriptures with a mindset that has been tainted with the hellfire dogma.

So please permit to chip in my 2cents !
You’ve been quoting Revelation 14:11 and using it as a basis for a hellfire but there’s something you’re missing if we’re to be honest. Do you need my input on the matter ?

In the same quote , You probably read matthew 25:46 didnt you?
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?

Acehart:

You knew the right answer but you chose the beat around the jungle. Who judges the heart? If Jesus was referring to an unknown law, as you have said, could that law have prescribed judicial sentences for all crimes? Those who found guilty, where would they serve their time?

Death is the wages for all kinds of sin! Romans 6:23

TenQ:

If all God can do to satan for corrupting the whole world is just to kill him (annihilate him), you wonder if there is appropriate justice served for the multitude of wailing caused by him.

That's what judgement day is for! If you look closely you would see that.Satan has not yet been punished for all his crimes upon the earth, same as Eve, Cain, Lamech and co.

That is what we see in "the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first" as shown in revelation.

We shall be judged first, then Satan shall be judged last.

TenQ:

In the same quote , You probably read matthew 25:46 didnt you?
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Since the dead know nothing, can the dead be punished?
Doesn't this mean that only the living can be punished?

I wanted to comment on Revelation 14:11 but seeing that you’ve shifted to Matthew 25:46, fine then.
Like I said, it’s obvious you’re reading these scriptures with a mind already tainted by the hellfire belief. And that’s the reason why you think punishment is synonymous to torment.

When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he used fire and brimstone (Genesis 19:24) and it was also recorded that they underwent everlasting punishment by fire (Jude 7) so my question to you is, where are the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah now? Were they destroyed instantly then or are they still lingering somewhere after fire and brimstone rained on their cities ?

MaxInDHouse:

Death is the wages for all kinds of sin! Romans 6:23

You for try to answer those questions. Anyway, you try. Give it up for Mr. Maximum.

Acehart:


Let's take a look at the most favorable Jehovah's witness' doctrine of the inexistence of the Lake of Fire (as you prefer it to be referred to to avert misinterpretation)- Jeremiah 7

Jehovah sets the tone or context for this chapter in the first three verses:

Hear the Lord's message, all you people in Judah. You come through this gate to worship the Lord.” ’ The great, powerful God of Israel says, "Change the things that you do. Do the right things''.

The introduction of this chapter reveals the profane worship Israel had descended into. Of the cluster of cultic sins Jehovah had against them, what seems to be the most detestable is the sacrifice (by fire) of their firstborn children; it brings to mind the Deuteronomistic prohibition laid out to the children of Israel.

Leviticus 18:3,21 says: "Do not follow their practices...And thou shalt not give any of thy seed to make them pass through the fire to Molech; neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am Jehovah"

Here is what Jeremiah 7:31 says, "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind."

The catch word for them and those who agree to that doctrine is this: nor did it enter my mind. What were the people doing in the Valley? Worship! Did it ever enter the mind of Jehovah to command that they offer their seed even His own seed in their sacrifice to Him? Never! Throughout all scripture, we know when God refers to His seed, He refers to His offspring (Though seed means several things including His word).

Then we hear God say to the wicked (who are not His seed): "then bodies will lie scattered on the ground. Birds and wild animals will come and eat, and no one will be around to scare them off"- Still in the same Jeremiah 7. How did these people die? By fire and much worse. Let's look at seven chapters later: "And they shall bear their punishment...“Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its people and their animals if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts; suppose I were to bring war against the land, and I sent enemy armies to destroy both people and animals. Suppose I were to pour out my fury by sending an epidemic into the land, and the disease killed people and animals alike. For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!"

I see that God sends Brimstone against the wicked because of their sin. If Jehovah were to annihilate those people using warfare, those who propagate this "mindless" (regarding Jere. 7:31) should know that those who invaded Jerusalem employed Brimstone in their siege-warfare. (FYI: Brimstone meaning 'sulfur' was first recorded in English in the early 14th century. It probably comes from words meaning 'burning and fire')

If the Lake of fire is never something God had in mind, Jesus should be accused of sensationalism; didn't He say: "whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”

Permit me to use you argument for something so obvious

Exodus 20:13
13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 13:15
15And when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both of man and beast. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the firstborn male of every womb, but I redeem all the firstborn of my sons.’

Conclusion:
The Lord cannot kill people when he Himself gave a commandment not to kill

Let me find you another
Genesis 19:24
24 Then the LORD rained down sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah— from the LORD out of the heavens. 25Thus He destroyed these cities and the entire plain, including all the inhabitants of the cities and everything that grew on the ground.

I guess Genesis 19:24 is either a parable or its not the LORD JEHOVAH

Dtruthspeaker:


Yes, the whole world has been sunk into Fraud and Massive Deception as you said God's Laws have been altered and Kept Covered.

So, as Written, "the secret of The Lord is with them that Fear Him". So I am here to burst all Lies and Replace with The Truth, to the best of my ability!

Do you know who they wrote to you as Lord? To know the Creator of all things, you need to have His knowledge. You can get this in any of your Religions cos they are a tool created by those ppl to Control. As long you are in any Religion, you are in the Matrix. To know the Creator of all things, you. need to seek and find him personally not thru any religion. If you are truly called to do these things, I should not be the one telling you all these things. It will be revealed to you. All your Religions are all corruption or a plagiarization of an Ancient Ppl's way the world have not even known. The knowledge of who the Father and Son is will be poured out at a certain time. When people know it, they will seek for a place the Father and Son will stamp their name and knowledge on earth. Everyone will go there to learn the truth - this is all written in Isaiah 2.

MaxInDHouse:

Satan is one of God's spirit sons, Adam and Eve connived with him to rebel against God so the three rebels will die but then God wants Adam's descendants to learn from Adam's evil deed that's why God didn't destroy Satan instantly. Moreover Satan asserted that humans will not worship God willingly unless God bribe them, he also said humans can rule over themselves successfully without God's intervention that's why God decided to give Satan the chance to prove all what he said!
But today nobody can deny the fact that all what Satan said is FALSE.

God is not interested in tormenting his children (including Satan) but since they don't want Him to guide them they will continue to hurt themselves and others so the best thing is to send them back to non-existence and that's exactly what God had in mind! Romans 6:23

You forget that God is the one who decides who is a son or not amongst his creations.

I find it amazing that God chained his children (with eternal chains) under darkness while reserving them for a greater punishment
Jude 1:6
6 And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling— these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.

I guess this is a mere parable as God does not have the liver to dump these evil spirits in the lake of fire!

MaxInDHouse:

My friend you are only arguing here, teaching is about result so if there's no result of what think you're teaching then you haven't taught a single thing!

How can a Spiritually blind man learning from a Spiritually blind Organization understand Spiritual things. Have told you many things, take them or thrash them.

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ in His teachings explained severally that death is not in any way caused by men. None of the birds can drop dead without the Father first knowing of it. A man can kill another man but only because God permits it. And as far as Cessation of the victim is concerned, God is the one who also decides that too.

So, again, what Jesus Christ is telling you in Matthew 10 vs 28 - 30 is this... do not fear men but instead fear only God for it is He who rules over men, Death and eternity.

Your argument is saying plainly that God is behind every death and its attendant sorrow.
I beg to disagree!

A man kill his son for ritual purposes and you say the death was caused by God!?

Jesus himself say man can ONLY kill the body and that is the maximum they can do, therefore we shouldn't fear men But fear God who not only can kill the body but thereafter still throw the Soul/Spirit in hell.

Matthew 10:29-31 is saying that God is aware of the minutest events that befall us

TenQ:

Your argument is saying plainly that God is behind every death and its attendant sorrow.
I beg to disagree!

A man kill his son for ritual purposes and you say the death was caused by God!?

Jesus himself say man can ONLY kill the body and that is the maximum they can do, therefore we shouldn't fear men But fear God who not only can kill the body but thereafter still throw the Soul/Spirit in hell.

Matthew 10:29-31 is saying that God is aware of the minutest events that befall us

My argument is instead saying that no death can happen without God sanctioning it. It is His Law that rules over everything. So no man can cause anything without or outside of God sanctioning it. For instance, when Stephen was stoned to death by the Jewish horde, it was God that allowed it and His Law that decided Stephen's end.

Again. God is the one to fear, not men because the buck starts and ends with Him and Him alone. This is what Jesus Christ taught His followers.

If you chose to believe otherwise, you are free to do just that.

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus used that parable to tell how badly things will turn out for the first century self-righteous Jewish leaders, Abraham and Moses never lived the same time, meanwhile Abraham is part of the dead that will be resurrected, when Jesus said they are all living to Him (God) this simply means God keeps their names in His memory book for resurrection not that the dead are conscious somewhere! Revelations 20:15

If you're still interested in knowing the meaning of those symbolic terms i'm still very much around!

This wasn't a parable o Mr maximus, it was a response to a question by the Sadducees who do not believe in a resurrection of the dead. They cooked up one bogus story and asked "whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife."
Here were the extracts of the answer of Jesus
1. The Sadducees do not know the scriptures nor the power of God
2. At Resurrecting there is no marriage for people will be like angels
3. Then Jesus spoke in-depth about the state of the dead using Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as example as LIVING for God is not the God of the dead (Just like you, the Sadducees believed in an unconscious state of the dead)

Mk 12:18-28
18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Read the scriptures to understand so that like the sadducees, you won't greatly err!

Dtruthspeaker:


That's what judgement day is for! If you look closely you would see that.Satan has not yet been punished for all his crimes upon the earth, same as Eve, Cain, Lamech and co.

That is what we see in "the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first" as shown in revelation.

We shall be judged first, then Satan shall be judged last.

If Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego can be in a fire that didnt consume them, some people feel that the lake of fire cannot be just like that

DappaD:


I wanted to comment on Revelation 14:11 but seeing that you’ve shifted to Matthew 25:46, fine then.
Like I said, it’s obvious you’re reading these scriptures with a mind already tainted by the Trinity belief. And that’s the reason why you think punishment is synonymous to torment.

When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he used fire and brimstone (Genesis 19:24) and it was also recorded that they underwent everlasting punishment by fire (Jude 7) so my question to you is, where are the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah now? Were they destroyed instantly then or are they still lingering somewhere after fire and brimstone rained on their cities ?

You said the book of revelation were just parables and visions that should not be taken literally, so, I showed you that I not only quoted from Revelation but also from Matthew25

Why dont you first analyse Matthew 25:46 since you don't need to IMPLY any meaning or interpretation as in Jude 1:7

How do you explain away the DIRECT word of Christ in Mat25, with Jude 1: that is subject to interpretation
Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


Lets look at
Jude 1:6-8
…6And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling—these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day. 7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

What does eternal chain mean in Jude6?
Are those Angels dead (like Sodom and Gomorrah citizens) ?
If they are not dead, where are they?
Is Jude 6 just a parable?
NOW
In like manner with the Angels in verse 6, Jude described Sodom and Gomorrah (which doesn't even exist again)
If they don't exist again, how can they be on display as an example (no one can even say for sure the location of the two cities)?

I want you to relate verse 6 and 7 and correlater them well.


A paralel of Jude 6 is
2Pt 2:4-6
4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6 if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly;

Where are the Ashes of Sodom and Gomorrah?


Now, compare with the direct teaching of Jesus in
Mathew 5:21
21You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not murder’ and ‘Anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be subject to the fire of hell.

Jesus specifically mentioned that the standard of God is even higher than the judgement of Murder:Such will be Subject to the Fires of Hell

Kobojunkie:
My argument is instead saying that no death can happen without God sanctioning it. It is His Law that rules over everything. So no man can cause anything without or outside of God sanctioning it. For instance, when Stephen was stoned to death by the Jewish horde, it was God that allowed it and His Law that decided Stephen's end.

Again. God is the one to fear, not men because the buck starts and ends with Him and Him alone. This is what Jesus Christ taught His followers.

If you chose to believe otherwise, you are free to do just that.

Did God saction this
https://www.nairaland.com/1255043/boy-killed-11-virgins-money-ritual
Or did God know about/allowed it to be

To Sanction is an official permission or approval for an action

Like did God give permission to Cain to kill Abel his brother?

TenQ:

Did God saction this
https://www.nairaland.com/1255043/boy-killed-11-virgins-money-ritual
Or did God know about/allowed it to be

To Sanction is an official permission or approval for an action

Like did God give permission to Cain to kill Abel his brother?

Again, this all boils down go whether you believe Jesus Christ is the Truth of God, or not.

26 “So don’t be afraid of those people. Everything that is hidden will be shown. Everything that is secret will be made known.
27 I tell you all this secretly,[d] but I want you to tell it publicly.[e] Whatever I tell you privately,[f] you should shout for everyone to hear.

28 “Don’t be afraid of people. They can kill the body, but they cannot kill the soul. The only one you should fear is God, the one who can send the body and the soul to be destroyed in hell.
29 When birds are sold, two small birds cost only a penny. But not even one of those little birds can die without your Father knowing it.
30 God even knows how many hairs are on your head.
31 So don’t be afraid. You are worth more than a whole flock of birds. - Matthew 10 vs 26 - 31