TenQ:

Of course we know that the hadiths were collected much later and so were most of the historical books of Islam and the Tafsir.
The traditions and the history were what people collected as the hadiths, tafsir and history of Islam.
1. How will you know how to pray from the Qur'an alone
2. How will you know how to slaughter from the Qur'an alone
3. Would you not be practicing Mutah from the Qur'an alone?
4. From the Qur'an alone won't you be practicing marriage of pre-puberscent girls and divorcing them?

The problem is that the Qur'an is in fragments and incomplete without the other books. For instance, from the Qur'an alone can you tell me the meaning of Messiah? From the Qur'an alone can you tell me who Israel is?

This is a big problem sir. The problem was hidden all along simply because only the Rich Scholars could afford the collection of the full library of compilation of the books of hadiths, Tafsir and History of Islam. But now, the internet broke this barrier plus the barrier of the mastery of the Arabic language.




But it wasn't Aisha alone who gave narrations of the report of stoning and breastfeeding in the hadiths. They ALL agreed the the verses USED to be RECITED as part of the Qur'an.
Of course, this is not the only verses acclaimed by early Muslims to be absent from the Qur'an of Uthman. Many of these were forgotten and some remembered in fragments.



I think the reasons these hadiths and Tafsir especially came in were to explain the Context of the verses of the Qur'an especially as Islam began to spread to areas with knowledgeable Jews and Christians on matters of History in the earlier revealed scriptures disputing with the Islamic claims
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
2. The seeming Prophethood of Zhulqanain
3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)
5. Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses

Without the Hadiths and Tafsir and the Historical books, no body would be able to make sense of the Qur'an. It's like a book that dropped right out of the blues that even though is expected to be a follow up of the earlier revealed scriptures contradict it so much that they can't be bound together in a single volume (like the old and new Testament).

Denying the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Islamic Historical books creates other dilemma and unsolvable problems for Islam.

But why would these sincere Muslims of Old write damning things about their beloved Prophet? You will agree with me that Fabrications in religion are usually done by people to embellish the truth to make it more grander, nicer and glorious. Report of events that are seemingly Raw, Unpolished and Derogatory are usually Truths as the events happened.

You made many points and I am going respond to them. You sounds just like the supporters of Hadiths and for a good reason. You need the Hadith to attack the Quran.

The point you made about needing Hadith to pray, fast etc, is a weak point. Because, I ask a question which you or any supporter of Hadith has not answered yet. If Hadith, were collected long after the prophet was gone, what were the Muslims then praying with? And also I need you to back up your claim were you said Hadith teaches prayers and other aspect of the religion. Please, provide the Hadiths that gie the details of salat, like you asked me to do? I dare you or any one to provide that Hadith. The point you people seems to miss is you think the Muslim prayer, fasting and hajj begins with Muhammad. The Quran always remind us that these practices are nothing new. Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Ismail etc did perform salat(Check Quran 8:35, 9:54, 16:123, 21:73, 22:27, 28:27).

Practicing Mutah from Quran alone? Where exactly do you have that in the Quran?

Where do you get it from the Quran that someone can marry a pre-puberscent girl?

No 2? Haba bro did you have to bring that up. The Quran has answered that already checked Quran 22:36.

knowing the meaning of Messiah and who Israel is has nothing to do with my salvation or truth. The point you and most Muslims seems to missed is Quran is not a book of stories. There is a reason it calls itself the Furqan. The truth is Islam as well as Christainity had been corrupted and made to deviate from its original purpose. This is what Quran will correct if we give it the chance. Just let the Quran speaks for itself. Stop imposing meanings from external sources or your heart desire. It is easy to understand for the sincere seeker(Quran 54:17).

Please, don't forget to provide pure Quranic text that encourages Mutah and marrying pre-puberscent girls.

Thank you brother. May Allah pardon our excesses. Allah is the one who guides and non can guide who he doesn't.
May Allah accept our living as worship, pardon our misdeeds and grant us firdous.

It is widely accepted that our recitations are valid and authentic, they do present variations in pronunciation and wordings, however, these divergences have led researchers to acknowledge that the Hafs recitation, which is prevalent and widespread, showcases a relatively stricter phonetic approach compared to the Warsh recitation. They have argued that the Warsh recitation provides a unique perspective on linguistic features and dialectical influences, shedding light on the rich diversity within the Arabic language.
Despite the few word changes appearing differently in the Hafs and Warsh versions of the Quran, there is no difference in meaning between these two versions. Hafs and Warsh are the two most well-known recitation styles of the Quran, and they differ mainly in the pronunciation and phonetics of certain words. The difference in the word changes are purely a matter of pronunciation variation and does not alter the essence or interpretation of the text.

The preservation of the Quran has been of utmost importance to Muslims throughout history, and it has been meticulously transmitted through a strong oral tradition. Both the Hafs and Warsh versions are widely accepted across different Muslim communities, emphasizing the common understanding that the core message and teachings of the Quran remain unaltered regardless of the style of recitation.

Indeed Allah is sufficient to keep his religion, book and followers and is sufficient for me and Muslims

Explore2xmore:
May Allah reward you. As I was advised it is often fruitless with a lot of these guys. It really is a period of dajullun.

They think the recitations differ in core message picking single word variations here and there and exclusively reading without going with the entire verse

They don't know or in a bid to deceive think the ummah is unaware of the 10 recitations.

Salam bro. May Allah enrich you. Indeed they know do not allow them to lure you into much arguments.

We send the messengers only as deliverers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve argue with false argument, in order to defeat the truth thereby. They take My Verses, and the warnings, for a joke. (18:56)

It seems Tenq pleasures in continuing arguments even when he rationally sees differently. Don't let him waste your time. I believe there are more rewarding acts than his enduring debates.

Besides it is not enough to profess the Shahzad we will be tested for sincerity and steadfastness. We can share what we know of truth but know the shayatin are ever trying to mislead and deceive.

You have spoken your truth but the attempt at corruption through hadith is and will be there for as long as Allah leaves. We are not to convince but share information and maybe learn a thing or two from them even if for sake of just knowing. May Allah aid us in our lives and practice of the Deen.
Laqum deenikum waliyadeen

satmaniac:


You made many points and I am going respond to them. You sounds just like the supporters of Hadiths and for a good reason. You need the Hadith to attack the Quran.

The point you made about needing Hadith to pray, fast etc, is a weak point. Because, I ask a question which you or any supporter of Hadith has not answered yet. If Hadith, were collected long after the prophet was gone, what were the Muslims then praying with? And also I need you to back up your claim were you said Hadith teaches prayers and other aspect of the religion. Please, provide the Hadiths that gie the details of salat, like you asked me to do? I dare you or any one to provide that Hadith. The point you people seems to miss is you think the Muslim prayer, fasting and hajj begins with Muhammad. The Quran always remind us that these practices are nothing new. Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Ismail etc did perform salat(Check Quran 8:35, 9:54, 16:123, 21:73, 22:27, 28:27).

Practicing Mutah from Quran alone? Where exactly do you have that in the Quran?

Where do you get it from the Quran that someone can marry a pre-puberscent girl?

No 2? Haba bro did you have to bring that up. The Quran has answered that already checked Quran 22:36.

knowing the meaning of Messiah and who Israel is has nothing to do with my salvation or truth. The point you and most Muslims seems to missed is Quran is not a book of stories. There is a reason it calls itself the Furqan. The truth is Islam as well as Christainity had been corrupted and made to deviate from its original purpose. This is what Quran will correct if we give it the chance. Just let the Quran speaks for itself. Stop imposing meanings from external sources or your heart desire. It is easy to understand for the sincere seeker(Quran 54:17).

Please, don't forget to provide pure Quranic text that encourages Mutah and marrying pre-puberscent girls.

Ohyoudidnt:
Salam bro. May Allah enrich you. Indeed they know do not allow them to lure you into much arguments.

We send the messengers only as deliverers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve argue with false argument, in order to defeat the truth thereby. They take My Verses, and the warnings, for a joke. (18:56)

It seems Tenq pleasures in continuing arguments even when he rationally sees differently. Don't let him waste your time. I believe there are more rewarding acts than his enduring debates.

Besides it is not enough to profess the Shahzad we will be tested for sincerity and steadfastness. We can share what we know of truth but know the shayatin are ever trying to mislead and deceive.

You have spoken your truth but the attempt at corruption through hadith is and will be there for as long as Allah leaves. We are not to convince but share information and maybe learn a thing or two from them even if for sake of just knowing. May Allah aid us in our lives and practice of the Deen.
Laqum deenikum waliyadeen

Peace brother. Yes I have something rewarding doing. Out of the little time I have, I will try as much as possible to reply him as best as I can. When I can't I will just read and perhaps chuckle.

As for learning from Hadith, I think the Quran is enough for me.

May Allah guide and suffice you as well as accept your acts as ibadah.

It's often impossible to change a bias more so when he agrees with the mischievous hadith and probably shared views of some of the ummah.

A brother from Syria I briefly schooled with shared that since the Quran cannot be corrupted those against Islam have adopted ahead. Alas since even the time of our prophet pbuh they have been at this and we know until the world comes to an end the accursed devil will keep trying to mislead.

satmaniac:


You made many points and I am going respond to them. You sounds just like the supporters of Hadiths and for a good reason. You need the Hadith to attack the Quran.

The point you made about needing Hadith to pray, fast etc, is a weak point. Because, I ask a question which you or any supporter of Hadith has not answered yet. If Hadith, were collected long after the prophet was gone, what were the Muslims then praying with? And also I need you to back up your claim were you said Hadith teaches prayers and other aspect of the religion. Please, provide the Hadiths that gie the details of salat, like you asked me to do? I dare you or any one to provide that Hadith. The point you people seems to miss is you think the Muslim prayer, fasting and hajj begins with Muhammad. The Quran always remind us that these practices are nothing new. Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Ismail etc did perform salat(Check Quran 8:35, 9:54, 16:123, 21:73, 22:27, 28:27).

I said:

Of course we know that the hadiths were collected much later and so were most of the historical books of Islam and the Tafsir.
The traditions and the history were what people collected as the hadiths, tafsir and history of Islam.
1. How will you know how to pray from the Qur'an alone
2. How will you know how to slaughter from the Qur'an alone

Or

I think the reasons these hadiths and Tafsir especially came in were to explain the Context of the verses of the Qur'an especially as Islam began to spread to areas with knowledgeable Jews and Christians on matters of History in the earlier revealed scriptures disputing with the Islamic claims
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
.....

You will note that I have not based my arguments on the hadiths alone. I have based it on your TRADITIONS found in your religious books such as the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Historical books.

It is a conjecture to believe that Islam was practiced by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc otherwise, your religion would be identical with the Religion on the Jews. I still maintain my stance on this sir. Islam is incomprehensible without these other books of the Hadiths, Tafsir and other Islamic historical books. By the Qur'an alone, you would be praying 3times and NOT 5 times per day.

satmaniac:

Practicing Mutah from Quran alone? Where exactly do you have that in the Quran?

Qur'an 4:24 and
Qur'an 24:33 sir.

satmaniac:

Where do you get it from the Quran that someone can marry a pre-puberscent girl?

Qur'an 65:4 speaking about divorcing wives who have not started menstruation.

satmaniac:

No 2? Haba bro did you have to bring that up. The Quran has answered that already checked Quran 22:36.

2. How will you know how to slaughter from the Qur'an alone
Unfortunately, you need the Tafsir to understand Qur'an 22:36 as one can only imply that Allah speaks of sacrifice here

satmaniac:

knowing the meaning of Messiah and who Israel is has nothing to do with my salvation or truth. The point you and most Muslims seems to missed is Quran is not a book of stories. There is a reason it calls itself the Furqan. The truth is Islam as well as Christainity had been corrupted and made to deviate from its original purpose. This is what Quran will correct if we give it the chance. Just let the Quran speaks for itself. Stop imposing meanings from external sources or your heart desire. It is easy to understand for the sincere seeker(Quran 54:17).

Please, don't forget to provide pure Quranic text that encourages Mutah and marrying pre-puberscent girls.

But you have no guarantee of salvation in Islam. What you have is a guarantee for the fire of hell even though TEMPORARILY!

Quran 19:71
There is not one of you who will not go down to it (the fire), that is a fixed Decree of your Lord
Quran 19:72
Then, We will save those who were cautious of Us, but the harmdoers shall be left there hobbling on their knees

After all you muslims enter the fire, THEN Allah will THEREAFTER remove the good muslims and leave others in the fire.

What is the original purpose if you claim that Islam and Christianity has been corrupted. You must at least show us that which has NOT been corrupted as a standard. Is the Religion of the Jews also corrupted? How?

Advocatejare, the half-baked knowledge you had about Islam from what you read online only makes you looks stupid Everytime (not an insult)...

You need to enrol in Islamic school and start from learning from elementary level, that time you'll be ashamed of all jargons you've been putting online for years

TenQ:

I said:


Or

You will note that I have not based my arguments on the hadiths alone. I have based it on your TRADITIONS found in your religious books such as the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Historical books.

It is a conjecture to believe that Islam was practiced by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc otherwise, your religion would be identical with the Religion on the Jews. I still maintain my stance on this sir. Islam is incomprehensible without these other books of the Hadiths, Tafsir and other Islamic historical books. By the Qur'an alone, you would be praying 3times and NOT 5 times per day.



Qur'an 4:24 and
Qur'an 24:33 sir.





Qur'an 65:4 speaking about divorcing wives who have not started menstruation.




2. How will you know how to slaughter from the Qur'an alone
Unfortunately, you need the Tafsir to understand Qur'an 22:36 as one can only imply that Allah speaks of sacrifice here



But you have no guarantee of salvation in Islam. What you have is a guarantee for the fire of hell even though TEMPORARILY!

Quran 19:71
There is not one of you who will not go down to it (the fire), that is a fixed Decree of your Lord
Quran 19:72
Then, We will save those who were cautious of Us, but the harmdoers shall be left there hobbling on their knees

After all you muslims enter the fire, THEN Allah will THEREAFTER remove the good muslims and leave others in the fire.

What is the original purpose if you claim that Islam and Christianity has been corrupted. You must at least show us that which has NOT been corrupted as a standard. Is the Religion of the Jews also corrupted? How?

ThatFairGuy1:
Advocatejare, the half-baked knowledge you had about Islam from what you read online only makes you looks stupid Everytime (not an insult)...

You need to enrol in Islamic school and start from learning from elementary level, that time you'll be ashamed of all jargons you've been putting online for years

boo boo
how are you doing ❤️❤️❤️😘😘😘😘😍😍😍💋💋💋♥️♥️💜💜💜

ThatFairGuy1:
Advocatejare, the half-baked knowledge you had about Islam from what you read online only makes you looks stupid Everytime (not an insult)...

You need to enrol in Islamic school and start from learning from elementary level, that time you'll be ashamed of all jargons you've been putting online for years

Unfortunately,
This is TenQ writing and not Advocatejare.

You can be sure I have evidence for everything I write about Islam.
Now I have gotten some of you to start denying your Hadiths.

If you think ANYTHING is untrue according to your Islamic sources then, bring it on. Otherwise, consider adopting the Truth

This old man won't rest

Finestgurlie:
boo boo
how are you doing ❤️❤️❤️😘😘😘😘😍😍😍💋💋💋♥️♥️💜💜💜

TenQ:



You will note that I have not based my arguments on the hadiths alone. I have based it on your TRADITIONS found in your religious books such as the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Historical books.

It is a conjecture to believe that Islam was practiced by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc otherwise, your religion would be identical with the Religion on the Jews. I still maintain my stance on this sir. Islam is incomprehensible without these other books of the Hadiths, Tafsir and other Islamic historical books. By the Qur'an alone, you would be praying 3times and NOT 5 times per day.

My tradition you say. Still trying to force Hadith down my throat? . When were the said traditions written? What was Imam Malik, the author of Muwatta, or Bukhari the author of Sahih Bukahari using to pray before they compile the Hadith? Does that mean people were not praying between the period of prophet Muhammad death and when those books were collected? Answer these questions before moving to another topic. Can you please stay on topic? Most of the things you keep throwing in other to avoid answering my questions, have answers. Five daily prayers not in the Quran. Yes they are. Like I told you, the reason Salat details can't be found in the Quran is that Salat is not a strange concept even among the polytheist of Mecca. The only thing is they directed their worship to the idols in the Kaábah, instead of the God of Abraham Allah. Check the following verse about the polytheist performing salat. 8:35 "Their contact prayers(Salat) at the shrine(Kaábah) were no more than a mockery..... " and this one about Muhammad even before the nightly journey were he was "allegedly", given the fifty prayer. 96:9-10 "Have you seen the one who enjoins. Others from praying(Sallah)?"

So, there is no need to give details of what was already known. It is like I said. If you are going to ask me were I get my prayers from, just look at the billions of Muslim praying in the world, despite the difference in sect have the basics details of the prayer the same. hell even the Samaritan Jews pray the way the Muslim pray too. Are you going to ask them what hadith they get their prayers from? It is simple, practices get passed down from generation to generation. That is why in the bible you reference how some apostle of God fell on their faces, even though the present day cristian and Jews don't do that. Telling me that without Hadith, I can't pray, is like telling a Fulani person without a book on how to make fura da nono, that was written today, he/she can not make the Fura and Nono. It silly asking that question.

TenQ:

Qur'an 4:24 and

Qur'an 24:33 sir.

You are going to use the above verses Mut'ah? Where is Mutáh here help me understand please.

4;24 said "Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are God's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. God is Omniscient, Most Wise."

Where is Mut'ah here too?

24:33 Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until God provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from God's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then God, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.

TenQ:

Qur'an 65:4 speaking about divorcing wives who have not started menstruation.

I know you will bring this up. Let me quote the verse here and from the source that seeks to promotes such understanding. 65:4 "As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery.1 And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them."
The bolded above is what the translator choose to put there obviously to support the notion that Quran permits child marriage. I will tell you why the above translation is wrong and is just their to serve certain people interests, prejudices and whims. First the translation violate the Quranic condition for marriage in 4:6 "And test the orphans (to see) that they have reached marriageable (age). If you find them of sound judgement" بَلَغُوا النِّكَاحَ means marriageable age. .
Secondly, the translation of the Arabic word lam yahidna as who have not menstruated is wrong because it suggest that they will do in the future, in this way they have not yet menstruated, which will give the meaning of someone who have not attained puberty(prepubescent). Well the Arabic word lam(لَمْ) which is being translated as "have not", also appear in 112:3-4 The same word was used to show God did not beget, nor was he begotten. Lam(did not/Never) yalid(beget) wa lam(never) yulad(begotten). I hope you understand thhe game the translators playing now. Lam appropriately means never/did not. Till today there exist women who experience a condition known as amenorrhea, a condition where a woman fails to have menstrual periods. It is called primary amenorrhea when the woman has never menstruated. So this is what the verse is talking about.

TenQ:

2. How will you know how to slaughter from the Qur'an alone
Unfortunately, you need the Tafsir to understand Qur'an 22:36 as one can only imply that Allah speaks of sacrifice here

Why do we kill animal(slaughter)? Sacrifice or eating? The purpose of the sacrifice is stated in the same verse. Go back and read. Don't act like you don't know the question has been answered.

TenQ:

But you have no guarantee of salvation in Islam. What you have is a guarantee for the fire of hell even though TEMPORARILY!

Quran 19:71
There is not one of you who will not go down to it (the fire), that is a fixed Decree of your Lord
Quran 19:72
Then, We will save those who were cautious of Us, but the harmdoers shall be left there hobbling on their knees

After all you muslims enter the fire, THEN Allah will THEREAFTER remove the good muslims and leave others in the fire.

What is the original purpose if you claim that Islam and Christianity has been corrupted. You must at least show us that which has NOT been corrupted as a standard. Is the Religion of the Jews also corrupted? How?

TenQ:


Unfortunately,
This is TenQ writing and not Advocatejare.

You can be sure I have evidence for everything I write about Islam.
Now I have gotten some of you to start denying your Hadiths.

If you think ANYTHING is untrue according to your Islamic sources then, bring it on. Otherwise, consider adopting the Truth

The denial of Hadith did not start today, brother. It is as old as the Quran. What do you think Quran 6:112-114 is saying? The fact is there is no Hadith until after the prophet death. The questions you should be asking is who authorised following the Hadith? Yeas 6:112-114 had already answered that.

satmaniac:


The denial of Hadith did not start today, brother. It is as old as the Quran. What do you think Quran 6:112-114 is saying? The fact is there is no Hadith until after the prophet death. The questions you should be asking is who authorised following the Hadith? Yeas 6:112-114 had already answered that.

I agree with you.
Mohammed himself did forbid Muslims from writing hadith about him BUT you Muslims love and rever him so much that you collected everything about your prophet to aid your religion.

Up till recently, Muslims have no issues or problems with the hadiths because there are many embarrassing things reported of Mohammed.

Unfortunately, when the biographer of any history writes about themselves things that are demeaning or uncomfortable, such is most likely true. (Because self Biographies like photographs are designed to present the BEST of the actors even if it is a lie or exaggeration)

I think the problem of Muslim is like
Will you believe us if Christians claim that Jesus was misrepresented by his enemies as crucified on the cross: that Jesus vanished before the eyes of the Jews is actually the real story (despite the fact that we have report of his death in the Bible)

The fact that you don't like the stories is not a prove that the hadiths are fabrications.
For example :
The fact that Mohammed married Zainab (the wife of his adopted son) may be an uncomfortable truth, but it did happen in real time. Should Muslims deny it?
If the history is denied, does it change the reality?

Finally, you Muslims respect Aisha so much and any hadith from her is taken seriously. Aisha know many private things about Mohammed as his wife than even his companions.

satmaniac:

My tradition you say. Still trying to force Hadith down my throat? . When were the said traditions written? What was Imam Malik, the author of Muwatta, or Bukhari the author of Sahih Bukahari using to pray before they compile the Hadith? Does that mean people were not praying between the period of prophet Muhammad death and when those books were collected? Answer these questions before moving to another topic. Can you please stay on topic? Most of the things you keep throwing in other to avoid answering my questions, have answers. Five daily prayers not in the Quran. Yes they are. Like I told you, the reason Salat details can't be found in the Quran is that Salat is not a strange concept even among the polytheist of Mecca. The only thing is they directed their worship to the idols in the Kaábah, instead of the God of Abraham Allah. Check the following verse about the polytheist performing salat. 8:35 "Their contact prayers(Salat) at the shrine(Kaábah) were no more than a mockery..... " and this one about Muhammad even before the nightly journey were he was "allegedly", given the fifty prayer. 96:9-10 "Have you seen the one who enjoins. Others from praying(Sallah)?"

So, there is no need to give details of what was already known. It is like I said. If you are going to ask me were I get my prayers from, just look at the billions of Muslim praying in the world, despite the difference in sect have the basics details of the prayer the same. hell even the Samaritan Jews pray the way the Muslim pray too. Are you going to ask them what hadith they get their prayers from? It is simple, practices get passed down from generation to generation. That is why in the bible you reference how some apostle of God fell on their faces, even though the present day cristian and Jews don't do that. Telling me that without Hadith, I can't pray, is like telling a Fulani person without a book on how to make fura da nono, that was written today, he/she can not make the Fura and Nono. It silly asking that question.



You are going to use the above verses Mut'ah? Where is Mutáh here help me understand please.

4;24 said "Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are God's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. God is Omniscient, Most Wise."

Where is Mut'ah here too?

24:33 Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until God provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from God's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then God, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.



I know you will bring this up. Let me quote the verse here and from the source that seeks to promotes such understanding. 65:4 "As for your women past the age of menstruation, in case you do not know, their waiting period is three months, and those who have not menstruated as well. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period ends with delivery.1 And whoever is mindful of Allah, He will make their matters easy for them."
The bolded above is what the translator choose to put there obviously to support the notion that Quran permits child marriage. I will tell you why the above translation is wrong and is just their to serve certain people interests, prejudices and whims. First the translation violate the Quranic condition for marriage in 4:6 "And test the orphans (to see) that they have reached marriageable (age). If you find them of sound judgement" بَلَغُوا النِّكَاحَ means marriageable age. .
Secondly, the translation of the Arabic word lam yahidna as who have not menstruated is wrong because it suggest that they will do in the future, in this way they have not yet menstruated, which will give the meaning of someone who have not attained puberty(prepubescent). Well the Arabic word lam(لَمْ) which is being translated as "have not", also appear in 112:3-4 The same word was used to show God did not beget, nor was he begotten. Lam(did not/Never) yalid(beget) wa lam(never) yulad(begotten). I hope you understand thhe game the translators playing now. Lam appropriately means never/did not. Till today there exist women who experience a condition known as amenorrhea, a condition where a woman fails to have menstrual periods. It is called primary amenorrhea when the woman has never menstruated. So this is what the verse is talking about.

Why do we kill animal(slaughter)? Sacrifice or eating? The purpose of the sacrifice is stated in the same verse. Go back and read. Don't act like you don't know the question has been answered.

I wouldn't want us to start another bout of arguments on these because there are objections to each of your points.

The important thing of essence to note is that
1. Mohammed forbid the Muslims from writing stuffs about him
2. Muslims out of reverence and good faith decided to collect hadiths of their prophet
3. The vast majority of the narrators of the hadiths meant well and the collectors (Bukhari, Muslim etc) did their best to sanitizer, filter and organise these hadiths
4. With time Muslim scholars graded these hadiths as Sahih, Hassan, Daif or Mawḍū.
5. Unfortunately, some of the reports of what was classed as even Sahih are DISTURBING to modern Muslims


The Question is simple :
1. Should we discard the Hadiths, Tafsir and Tarikhs as FALSE simply because they said things we are not comfortable with?
2. Do we think our Islam is better now than the early Muslims who wrote these things about Mohammed?
3. When seem to trust the memory of Arabs with the Qur'an BUT why do we now doubt their memory when the speak of Mohammed?
4. Would you have accepted this kind of argument from Christians if we had the same situation?

It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
2. The seeming Prophethood of Zhulqanain
3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)
5. Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses

Without the Hadiths and Tafsir and the Historical books, no body would be able to make sense of the Qur'an. It's like a book that dropped right out of the blues that even though is expected to be a follow up of the earlier revealed scriptures contradict it so much that they can't be bound together in a single volume (like the old and new Testament).

Denying the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Islamic Historical books creates other dilemma and unsolvable problems for Islam.

But why would these sincere Muslims of Old write damning things about their beloved Prophet? You will agree with me that Fabrications in religion are usually done by people to embellish the truth to make it more grander, nicer and glorious. Report of events that are seemingly Raw, Unpolished and Derogatory are usually Truths as the events happened.[/quote]Well many like me need to see more of what you have as evidence. Not in view of argument but enriching knowledge.

1. The denial of the crucifixion of Jesus
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (4:157)
Which means And their saying, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared (so) to them. They have no knowledge of it except following conjecture, and they did not kill him with certainty

It appears pretty straightforward. Pardon my analogy however numerous acts of magic are about be it card tricks or human slicing.
My key takeaways are that
a) They say they killed Jesus the son of Mary
b) They did not kill him
c) They did not crucify him
d) It appeared so that he was crucified and killed
e) Conclusions on his crucifixion and killing are made with incomplete information.

I innerstand that this questions the foundation of Christianity and logically interest and or annoyance may come from this.

2. The seeming prophethood of Dhulqarnayn
There are diverse views about his prophethood however my takeaway from his story is the mercy shown to mankind through him in keeping Yajuj and Majuj away for a while.
They said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land. So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and them a barrier?" (18 : 94)

Looking further in [21:96-97] Until, when Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj are let loose, and they swiftly swarm from every mound. and the time for the fulfilment of the true promise of Allah draws near,whereupon the eyes of those who disbelieved will stare in fear, and they will say: "Woe to us, we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we were wrongdoers.

His being a prophet or not is not as important beyond knowing there was one so powerful he was reverred and could create such barriers even if I haven't seen such a barrier.

3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
Muhammad pbuh is not making claims of the unknown or equating himself to the king, master of the day of Judgement.
The furqan is replete with verses describing paradise and stating it as a reward for the pious.
The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord.Q 47:15.

4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)

It appears you stopped reading at 19:71 and didn't read 19:72
Then We will deliver those who were devout, leaving the wrongdoers there on their knees.

5.Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses
It really seems to appear however remember
(3:33) Truly Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and of 'Imran above all mankind.
I haven't completed my trace and accept this as one of the verses that is not so clear. Nevertheless at the birth of Mary her mother says the girl child is not like the boy child My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me (3:35)
Will get back to you about this as soon as possible. The common opinion is Miriam the sister of Moses is referred to however in view that Aaron and Moses are latter born it doesn't seem enough reason for concern

I find that Elizabeth was actually Mary's aunt, sister of Anna, Mary's mother. Joida, High Priest of Aaron, was father of Elizabeth and Anna, and thus grandfather of Jesus and of John the Baptist.

The most important here are that the Mary and Jesus are identified and the message from Allah is delivered.

TenQ:

I wouldn't want us to start another bout of arguments on these because there are objections to each of your points.

The important thing of essence to note is that
1. Mohammed forbid the Muslims from writing stuffs about him
2. Muslims out of reverence and good faith decided to collect hadiths of their prophet
3. The vast majority of the narrators of the hadiths meant well and the collectors (Bukhari, Muslim etc) did their best to sanitizer, filter and organise these hadiths
4. With time Muslim scholars graded these hadiths as Sahih, Hassan, Daif or Mawḍū.
5. Unfortunately, some of the reports of what was classed as even Sahih are DISTURBING to modern Muslims


The Question is simple :
1. Should we discard the Hadiths, Tafsir and Tarikhs as FALSE simply because they said things we are not comfortable with?
2. Do we think our Islam is better now than the early Muslims who wrote these things about Mohammed?
3. When seem to trust the memory of Arabs with the Qur'an BUT why do we now doubt their memory when the speak of Mohammed?
4. Would you have accepted this kind of argument from Christians if we had the same situation?

My brother is not about discarding what we are not comfortable with. Like you said there is no legitimate backing for the collection and writing of them And Like you have seen demonstrated in this thread by me, the moment you place it side by side with the Quranic verse you see how alien most of the rules derived from Hadith are to the Quranic principle. Like I said try as you may, you can never ever find all this rubbishes in the Quran, that alone should tell you something.
Please bring bring forth your objections I am waiting. As soon as I am able I will answer them.

Let me ask you one question have you really study Hadith? Like the origin of these Hadith? Have you compared the earliest hadith and the later ones? I am asking you this question, because if you did you will doubt that the prophet of I slam really said such things. As a Cristian I don't have to bother you with this questions, but since you insist on the reliability of such sources, I am challenging you to get yourself the earlier Hadiths like Muwatta, Mussanaf ibn shayba, Mussanaf asan'a then compare them with the later Hadith collection like Sahih Bukhari, Muslim etc. This will tell you much about how those narrations were falsely attributed to the prophet. As most of the Hadith in the earliest collections stopped at the companions or contain the opinions of the companions on certain issues. But in the later collections all of a sudden the words were said to have come from the prophet, just to give weight to it. These are things that should make any sincere believer question the Hadith.

Allow the Quran to speak without interruption from all these narrations containing whims and prejudices of rulers, men, Arab and even the dynasties.

TenQ:

I wouldn't want us to start another bout of arguments on these because there are objections to each of your points.

The important thing of essence to note is that
1. Mohammed forbid the Muslims from writing stuffs about him
2. Muslims out of reverence and good faith decided to collect hadiths of their prophet
3. The vast majority of the narrators of the hadiths meant well and the collectors (Bukhari, Muslim etc) did their best to sanitizer, filter and organise these hadiths
4. With time Muslim scholars graded these hadiths as Sahih, Hassan, Daif or Mawḍū.
5. Unfortunately, some of the reports of what was classed as even Sahih are DISTURBING to modern Muslims


The Question is simple :
1. Should we discard the Hadiths, Tafsir and Tarikhs as FALSE simply because they said things we are not comfortable with?
2. Do we think our Islam is better now than the early Muslims who wrote these things about Mohammed?
3. When seem to trust the memory of Arabs with the Qur'an BUT why do we now doubt their memory when the speak of Mohammed?
4. Would you have accepted this kind of argument from Christians if we had the same situation?

Answer to question number 4 is if the Christian believe in another source other than the bible I will not even listen to him. The reason you are asking this question majority of the people believe Hadith and other books are part of the sources in Islam. And if you look way back, you see the prophet and his companion only use Quran. Nothing more. Are you now telling me I am wrong by insisting you bring your evidences from what you and I know the prophet came with? Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why the hell do I need Hadith when you say the prophet even forbade it and yet his companions continue writing it? Whoever believes this is accusing the companions too of disobedience to the prophet. I will I follow something born out of disobedience to the order of God and his messenger? Please tell me why?

Trust the memory of Arabs with Quran? I trust the words of Allah over anything. And he is the one who promise to guide and protect the Quran from corruptions. 15:9 .

TenQ:

I agree with you.
Mohammed himself did forbid Muslims from writing hadith about him BUT you Muslims love and rever him so much that you collected everything about your prophet to aid your religion.

Up till recently, Muslims have no issues or problems with the hadiths because there are many embarrassing things reported of Mohammed.

Unfortunately, when the biographer of any history writes about themselves things that are demeaning or uncomfortable, such is most likely true. (Because self Biographies like photographs are designed to present the BEST of the actors even if it is a lie or exaggeration)

I think the problem of Muslim is like
Will you believe us if Christians claim that Jesus was misrepresented by his enemies as crucified on the cross: that Jesus vanished before the eyes of the Jews is actually the real story (despite the fact that we have report of his death in the Bible)

The fact that you don't like the stories is not a prove that the hadiths are fabrications.
For example :
The fact that Mohammed married Zainab (the wife of his adopted son) may be an uncomfortable truth, but it did happen in real time. Should Muslims deny it?
If the history is denied, does it change the reality?

Finally, you Muslims respect Aisha so much and any hadith from her is taken seriously. Aisha know many private things about Mohammed as his wife than even his companions.

What is wrong in marrying the divorced wife of an adopted son? Is he your biological son? The Quran is clear on the women we can marry.
Please remove me from the list of Muslims that attributed saying to people who certainly did not say anything.

honesttalk21:
I find that Elizabeth was actually Mary's aunt, sister of Anna, Mary's mother. Joida, High Priest of Aaron, was father of Elizabeth and Anna, and thus grandfather of Jesus and of John the Baptist.

The names "Elizabeth" and "Anna" appear in separate contexts in the Gospels. Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist, and Anna is a prophetess who is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke. They are not directly related.

There is nothing like Joida, High Priest of Aaron in Jewish history. Here is the list of the Jewish High Priests from the third century up to the time of Christ
Onias I (3rd century BCE)
Simon I (3rd century BCE)
Onias II (3rd century BCE)
Simon II (3rd century BCE)
Onias III (2nd century BCE)
Jason (2nd century BCE)
Menelaus (2nd century BCE)
Alcimus (2nd century BCE)
Jonathan (2nd century BCE)

I don't know from who you got your history about Aaron.

Who is Anna and where did you get your history of her?

honesttalk21:

The most important here are that the Mary and Jesus are identified and the message from Allah is delivered.

This is not the important thing o!
The Qur'an gives a botched up history of what was already known in the gospels. This is the issue. This actually cast a serious DOUBT on the real Author of the Qur'an.

In the Bible
#Amram is the Father of Moses, Aaron and Mariam
#Mariam is the sister of Aaron
#Mariam is the daughter of Amram
#Amram was from the tribe of Levi

#Elizabeth and Mary are Cousins!
#Mary was from the tribe of Judah

#The tribe of Levi ceased to exist as it was among the 10 lost tribe of Israel in the northern kingdom dispersed by the Assyrians in 722 BC.

#There is at least 1800 years between Mary and Mariam.

#It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that Mary was of the tribe of Levi or be related remotely to Aaron.

You despise your own hadiths and Tafsir now we don't know where you get your history of Mary from.

satmaniac:


What is wrong in marrying the divorced wife of an adopted son? Is he your biological son? The Quran is clear on the women we can marry.
Please remove me from the list of Muslims that attributed saying to people who certainly did not say anything.

Don't forget that Zaid was the son of Mohammed UNTIL Allah abolished adoption.

Therefore, Mohammed actually married the Wife of his son.

What could be worse than this?

satmaniac:


Answer to question number 4 is if the Christian believe in another source other than the bible I will not even listen to him. The reason you are asking this question majority of the people believe Hadith and other books are part of the sources in Islam. And if you look way back, you see the prophet and his companion only use Quran. Nothing more. Are you now telling me I am wrong by insisting you bring your evidences from what you and I know the prophet came with? Why is this so hard for you to understand? Why the hell do I need Hadith when you say the prophet even forbade it and yet his companions continue writing it? Whoever believes this is accusing the companions too of disobedience to the prophet. I will I follow something born out of disobedience to the order of God and his messenger? Please tell me why?

Trust the memory of Arabs with Quran? I trust the words of Allah over anything. And he is the one who promise to guide and protect the Quran from corruptions. 15:9 .

Do you also discard your Tafsir, Sira, Tarikh, Fiqh and Aqida as fake/unreliable just as the Hadiths? Please, help me understand you.

The Qur'an you use is a RECITATION of Hafs : this is from the memory of Arabs o just like the Hadiths.

He was always an adopted son. An adopted son is not the same as a biological son. The adoption as stated is legalised but the truth is there is no blood relation.
The revealed verse further ascertained this.
(33:5)Nor has He (Allâh) made your adopted sons your sons. Such is (only) your (manner of) speech by your mouths. But God tells the truth, and He shows the way. Call them by (the names of) their fathers, that is better in the sight of God
5:30) At last his evil soul drove him to the murder of his brother, and he killed him, whereby he himself became one of the losers.
(5:31) Thereupon Allah sent forth a raven who began to scratch the earth to show him how he might cover the corpse of his brother. So seeing he cried: 'Woe unto me! Was I unable even to be like this raven and find a way to cover the corpse of my brother?Then he became full of remorse at his doing.

You seem to have so much distrust of everything related from memory. The Quran has been academically found to be accurate in meaning despite the variations of style than the hadith. Perhaps as Allah is the one who keeps it.

satmaniac:


My brother is not about discarding what we are not comfortable with. Like you said there is no legitimate backing for the collection and writing of them And Like you have seen demonstrated in this thread by me, the moment you place it side by side with the Quranic verse you see how alien most of the rules derived from Hadith are to the Quranic principle. Like I said try as you may, you can never ever find all this rubbishes in the Quran, that alone should tell you something.
Please bring bring forth your objections I am waiting. As soon as I am able I will answer them.

Let me ask you one question have you really study Hadith? Like the origin of these Hadith? Have you compared the earliest hadith and the later ones? I am asking you this question, because if you did you will doubt that the prophet of I slam really said such things. As a Cristian I don't have to bother you with this questions, but since you insist on the reliability of such sources, I am challenging you to get yourself the earlier Hadiths like Muwatta, Mussanaf ibn shayba, Mussanaf asan'a then compare them with the later Hadith collection like Sahih Bukhari, Muslim etc. This will tell you much about how those narrations were falsely attributed to the prophet. As most of the Hadith in the earliest collections stopped at the companions or contain the opinions of the companions on certain issues. But in the later collections all of a sudden the words were said to have come from the prophet, just to give weight to it. These are things that should make any sincere believer question the Hadith.

Allow the Quran to speak without interruption from all these narrations containing whims and prejudices of rulers, men, Arab and even the dynasties.

The earliest hadiths are worse, I've read a few some long time ago. I prefer to use ONLY accepted hadiths as my source, thus, I comply with your wish.

You Muslims rejected the earliest hadiths. Many of the earlier Sira and Tareekh are not even translated into English language. Modern Muslim scholars said they only accept the hadiths complied by Imam Bukhari, Muslim, An-Nasa'i, Abi Dawud, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah

Now, we were forced to use only hadiths within your selection only for us to hear that the Hadiths are in grades of Sahih, Hassan, Daif and Mawdu. Unfortunately, if I get you rightly, you even totally reject ALL of them.

For us who are non muslims, these books give us a great insight into Islam beyond your preferred Narrative.

Even if you reject them as theological sources, it is still useful as a historical source

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
2. The seeming Prophethood of Zhulqanain
3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)
5. Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses

Without the Hadiths and Tafsir and the Historical books, no body would be able to make sense of the Qur'an. It's like a book that dropped right out of the blues that even though is expected to be a follow up of the earlier revealed scriptures contradict it so much that they can't be bound together in a single volume (like the old and new Testament).

Denying the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Islamic Historical books creates other dilemma and unsolvable problems for Islam.

But why would these sincere Muslims of Old write damning things about their beloved Prophet? You will agree with me that Fabrications in religion are usually done by people to embellish the truth to make it more grander, nicer and glorious. Report of events that are seemingly Raw, Unpolished and Derogatory are usually Truths as the events happened.Well many like me need to see more of what you have as evidence. Not in view of argument but enriching knowledge.

1. The denial of the crucifixion of Jesus
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (4:157)
Which means And their saying, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared (so) to them. They have no knowledge of it except following conjecture, and they did not kill him with certainty

It appears pretty straightforward. Pardon my analogy however numerous acts of magic are about be it card tricks or human slicing.
My key takeaways are that
a) They say they killed Jesus the son of Mary
b) They did not kill him
c) They did not crucify him
d) It appeared so that he was crucified and killed
e) Conclusions on his crucifixion and killing are made with incomplete information.

I innerstand that this questions the foundation of Christianity and logically interest and or annoyance may come from this.

2. The seeming prophethood of Dhulqarnayn
There are diverse views about his prophethood however my takeaway from his story is the mercy shown to mankind through him in keeping Yajuj and Majuj away for a while.
They said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land. So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and them a barrier?" (18 : 94)

Looking further in [21:96-97] Until, when Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj are let loose, and they swiftly swarm from every mound. and the time for the fulfilment of the true promise of Allah draws near,whereupon the eyes of those who disbelieved will stare in fear, and they will say: "Woe to us, we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we were wrongdoers.

His being a prophet or not is not as important beyond knowing there was one so powerful he was reverred and could create such barriers even if I haven't seen such a barrier.

3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
Muhammad pbuh is not making claims of the unknown or equating himself to the king, master of the day of Judgement.
The furqan is replete with verses describing paradise and stating it as a reward for the pious.
The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord.Q 47:15.

4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)

It appears you stopped reading at 19:71 and didn't read 19:72
Then We will deliver those who were devout, leaving the wrongdoers there on their knees.

5.Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses
It really seems to appear however remember
(3:33) Truly Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and of 'Imran above all mankind.
I haven't completed my trace and accept this as one of the verses that is not so clear. Nevertheless at the birth of Mary her mother says the girl child is not like the boy child My Lord, indeed I have pledged to You what is in my womb, consecrated [for Your service], so accept this from me (3:35)
Will get back to you about this as soon as possible. The common opinion is Miriam the sister of Moses is referred to however in view that Aaron and Moses are latter born it doesn't seem enough reason for concern

Permit me to respond to this tomorrow morning.

Have a good night rest my brother

In your studies you will also have come across information about heresies in the early church. As close as the initial century after Jesus left.

It's not something avoidable. We humans take rather lightly the extent of the devil's struggle to mislead as many. Right from the creation of Adam until the end of days on Earth I believe this will be.

I know a few that have given up and give reasons to be agnostic, atheist and the likes. Indeed whichever part you choose it will be stringently worked for.

Seek Allah's help with patient perseverance and prayer. It is indeed hard except for those who are humble." (2:45)

TenQ:

The earliest hadiths are worse, I've read a few some long time ago. I prefer to use ONLY accepted hadiths as my source, thus, I comply with your wish.

You Muslims rejected the earliest hadiths. Many of the earlier Sira and Tareekh are not even translated into English language. Modern Muslim scholars said they only accept the hadiths complied by Imam Bukhari, Muslim, An-Nasa'i, Abi Dawud, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah

Now, we were forced to use only hadiths within your selection only for us to hear that the Hadiths are in grades of Sahih, Hassan, Daif and Mawdu. Unfortunately, if I get you rightly, you even totally reject ALL of them.

For us who are non muslims, these books give us a great insight into Islam beyond your preferred Narrative.

Even if you reject them as theological sources, it is still useful as a historical source

No worries. Thanks and have a good rest too.

TenQ:

Permit me to respond to this tomorrow morning.

Have a good night rest my brother

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
1. The denial of the Crucifixion of Jesus
2. The seeming Prophethood of Zhulqanain
3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)
5. Mary mother of Jesus mistaken for Mariam daughter of Amran who was sister of Aaron and Moses

Without the Hadiths and Tafsir and the Historical books, no body would be able to make sense of the Qur'an. It's like a book that dropped right out of the blues that even though is expected to be a follow up of the earlier revealed scriptures contradict it so much that they can't be bound together in a single volume (like the old and new Testament).

Denying the Hadiths, Tafsir and the Islamic Historical books creates other dilemma and unsolvable problems for Islam.

But why would these sincere Muslims of Old write damning things about their beloved Prophet? You will agree with me that Fabrications in religion are usually done by people to embellish the truth to make it more grander, nicer and glorious. Report of events that are seemingly Raw, Unpolished and Derogatory are usually Truths as the events happened.Well many like me need to see more of what you have as evidence. Not in view of argument but enriching knowledge.

1. The denial of the crucifixion of Jesus
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَٰكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا (4:157)
Which means And their saying, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared (so) to them. They have no knowledge of it except following conjecture, and they did not kill him with certainty

It appears pretty straightforward. Pardon my analogy however numerous acts of magic are about be it card tricks or human slicing.
My key takeaways are that
a) They say they killed Jesus the son of Mary
b) They did not kill him
c) They did not crucify him
d) It appeared so that he was crucified and killed
e) Conclusions on his crucifixion and killing are made with incomplete information.

I innerstand that this questions the foundation of Christianity and logically interest and or annoyance may come from this.

Unfortunately, the Quran created more questions from butchering history that it becomes unbelievable. Why?
The narrative of the Qur'an cannot answer the following Questions
1. The Jews can NEVER EVER go against the Messiah because the Messiah is the one prophesied to Save Israel. Why would the Jews then say "We killed the Messiah, Jesus so of Mary?"

2. Muslims are the ones with different conjectures about the crucifixion, death and going up to heaven of Jesus. If Jesus wasn't crucified, who was His replacement?

3. It is understandable if Allah deceived the Jews and Romans, Why did Allah ALSO deceive Mary, the Disciples and all the followers of Jesus?

4. The Morality of Allah is in Question if he made an innocent man the replacement for Jesus crucifixion. Why would Allah allow an innocent man replace Jesus?

5. The Qur'an says that Jesus was taken to Heaven with Allah: How did this take place? Who was present?

6. Even the enemies of the Christians agree with history that Jesus was crucified and written history bears record of that.

As Christians, we can answer ANY Questions you can pose about Jesus crucifixion from the bible: the Qur'an came to complicate an otherwise simple history.

If these questions cannot be answered categorically convincingly, then the Qur'an goofed big time on this

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
......
2. The seeming prophethood of Dhulqarnayn
There are diverse views about his prophethood however my takeaway from his story is the mercy shown to mankind through him in keeping Yajuj and Majuj away for a while.
They said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, indeed Gog and Magog are [great] corrupters in the land. So may we assign for you an expenditure that you might make between us and them a barrier?" (18 : 94)

Looking further in [21:96-97] Until, when Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj are let loose, and they swiftly swarm from every mound. and the time for the fulfilment of the true promise of Allah draws near,whereupon the eyes of those who disbelieved will stare in fear, and they will say: "Woe to us, we were indeed heedless of this; nay, we were wrongdoers.

His being a prophet or not is not as important beyond knowing there was one so powerful he was reverred and could create such barriers even if I haven't seen such a barrier.

There are so many problems with this as
1. Dhul-Qarnayn is known in History to be a confirmed homosexual: how can he then be a prophet?

2. Who is Gog and Magog in the Qur'an?
We can tell you who they are from the Bible.

3. Where is the Wall of God and Magog built by Dhul-Qarnayn? It doesn't exist.

4. The story of Dhul-Qarnayn marching to the ends of the earth is mere fable: except you can prove it.

5. If Allah claimed that Dhul-Qarnayn met a people by the murky waters where the sun set, doesn't this contradict elementary knowledge of Geography?


This serious mixup prove that the Qur'an is the work of a limited human being : if you think not, answer these questions convincingly!

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
.......

3. Mohammed not knowing with certainty if he's going to paradise or hell fire
Muhammad pbuh is not making claims of the unknown or equating himself to the king, master of the day of Judgement.
The furqan is replete with verses describing paradise and stating it as a reward for the pious.
The description of Paradise which the Muttaqun (pious) have been promised is that in it are rivers of water the taste and smell of which are not changed; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine delicious to those who drink; and rivers of clarified honey (clear and pure) therein for them is every kind of fruit; and forgiveness from their Lord.Q 47:15.
.........

I think this is very clear in the Qur'an
Qur'an 46:9
Say, “I am not the first messenger ever sent, nor do I know what will happen to me or you. I only follow what is revealed to me. And I am only sent with a clear warning.”

Is this Qur'an true or is it a contradiction?


If Mohammed doesn't know what Allah will do with him, how can he be said to have a guarantee of paradise?

He says to you Muslims that he is just a warner to you!

Compare this with the Messiah who says :

John 14:6:
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me."

honesttalk21:
It is impossible to explain from the Qur'an alone
........

4. All Muslims entering the fire of Hell (but later removed)

It appears you stopped reading at 19:71 and didn't read 19:72
Then We will deliver those who were devout, leaving the wrongdoers there on their knees.

....

I read everything that was why I noted that but later removed
1. How long do you think Muslims will spend in Hell before they are replaced with Christians? Does it even make sense?

2. Is there any other prophet of God who preached this kind of doctrine?

Be warned :
Once a person enters Hell, there is no coming out o!

Jesus said, we should do everything NOT to enter Hell because there is no coming out of it o!

Mat 5:29:
"And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell."

Good day. Trust you had a good rest.
Let's start with Joida. In the book of Nehemiah 12:10 we read Joshua was the father of Joiakim, Joiakim the father of Eliashib, Eliashib the father of Joiada,
11 Joiada the father of Jonathan, and Jonathan the father of Jaddua.

Then a look into the story of Joachim, his wife Anne (or Anna), and the miraculous birth of their child Mary, the mother of Jesus, was told for the first time in the 2nd-century apocryphal infancy-gospel the Gospel of James

I will accept the stories are not piecing together simply.

Of course I know Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist. She is the wife of Zakaria.
Zakaria is an uncle to Mary.

He is mentioned in the Quran as the father of John the Baptist and the one to whom Mary was given to care for in infancy.

3:37) Thereupon her Lord graciously accepted Mary and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth and placed her in the care of Zechariah. Whenever Zakariya visited her in the sanctuary, he found her provided with food. He asked her: 'O Mary, how did this come to you?' She said: 'It is from Allah. Allah provides sustenance to whom He wills beyond all reckoning.'
(3:38) Then Zakarya prayed to his Lord: 'O Lord! Grant me from Yourself out of Your grace the gift of a goodly offspring, for indeed You alone heed all Prayers.
(3:39) As he stood praying in the sanctuary, the angels called out to him: 'Allah gives you good tidings of John (Yahya),who shall confirm a command of Allah , shall be outstanding among men, utterly chaste, and a Prophet from among the righteous.'

TenQ:


The names "Elizabeth" and "Anna" appear in separate contexts in the Gospels. Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist, and Anna is a prophetess who is mentioned in the Gospel of Luke. They are not directly related.

There is nothing like Joida, High Priest of Aaron in Jewish history. Here is the list of the Jewish High Priests from the third century up to the time of Christ
Onias I (3rd century BCE)
Simon I (3rd century BCE)
Onias II (3rd century BCE)
Simon II (3rd century BCE)
Onias III (2nd century BCE)
Jason (2nd century BCE)
Menelaus (2nd century BCE)
Alcimus (2nd century BCE)
Jonathan (2nd century BCE)

I don't know from who you got your history about Aaron.

Who is Anna and where did you get your history of her?


This is not the important thing o!
The Qur'an gives a botched up history of what was already known in the gospels. This is the issue. This actually cast a serious DOUBT on the real Author of the Qur'an.

In the Bible
#Amram is the Father of Moses, Aaron and Mariam
#Mariam is the sister of Aaron
#Mariam is the daughter of Amram
#Amram was from the tribe of Levi

#Elizabeth and Mary are Cousins!
#Mary was from the tribe of Judah

#The tribe of Levi ceased to exist as it was among the 10 lost tribe of Israel in the northern kingdom dispersed by the Assyrians in 722 BC.

#There is at least 1800 years between Mary and Mariam.

#It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that Mary was of the tribe of Levi or be related remotely to Aaron.

You despise your own hadiths and Tafsir now we don't know where you get your history of Mary from.