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Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 2:44pm On Mar 24 |
LordReed: Buda, below is what I wanted ODB to tell you, because he was there. I wrote it to deepsight on Feb 16 on my last thread (Einstein): As for cogito, I was expecting you to ask how when I told you it was disproved but you kept mute. It was proved wrong not long after Descartes expounded it. Here goes. You can't prove the existence of something by starting with the assumption that the thing already exists. Thus the statement should be: "There is thinking therefore I am", which of course doesn't make any sense. |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 2:51pm On Mar 24 |
PoliteActivist: Just go and fetch me an instance of thought occuring without the existence of a being. If you can't do that, go and sit down. The rest is pedantic semantics for shallow thinkers. 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 2:59pm On Mar 24 |
DeepSight: This is too easy. FIRST, you have no way of knowing if a thought requires a thinker because you are not sure the true nature of thought - just as you are not sure the true nature of the rest of reality! SECOND, even if we allow the above, you are not sure the thoughts are from "I". We basically don't know where thoughts come from. Oh you asked for an instant - people who died and came back were thinking while dead |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 3:07pm On Mar 24 |
LordReed: Below is my final QED on DeepSight about this topic. Read it carefully. It summarizes everything: Disregarding that the statement is faulty in itself, Here's the logical sequence of events: 1) There is thinking (this we are fairly sure about) 2) Therefore there must be a thinker (we have no way of knowing this unless we claim we know the true nature of existence, which we don't! Also, the only describable attribute of the thinker is thinking - thinking is the thinker!) 3) That thinker must be "I" (obviously not true) There's clearly all sorts of thinking going on in a dream, and while "I" is unconscious or possessed, or even dead (as narrated by people who came back), who is doing the thinking? As with many things about existence, we don't know the true nature of thinking. QED |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 3:20pm On Mar 24 |
PoliteActivist: I have seldom read more empty dribble than this vacant wash. I repeat, if you can't show an instance of the occurrence of thought absent a being, go and sit down. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 3:25pm On Mar 24 |
PoliteActivist: Oh people, you say, and fail to see how you have thus destroyed your own nonsensical argument. As to the drivel above that, I will just ignore it. It's worse than saying we have no way of knowing that speech implies a speaker. And no, the fundamental attribute is not speaking. It is existing. Look, ol boy, I find your dribble too vacant to be worth engaging on this matter. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by LordReed(m): 4:03pm On Mar 24 |
Bwahahahahaha! I wonder how someone will think their nonsense is brilliance when several people can see through the bullshìt. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by budaatum: 4:48pm On Mar 24 |
PoliteActivist: Descartes assumed his own existence by using the word "I". And that is a flaw in his argument, since it shows he couldn't actually doubt his own existence. But explain to me how and why you keep promoting this Descartes nonsense here if you know it was flawed and had been proven wrong as we've repeatedly argued it was. I've made it bold so you can't ignore it as you ignore all questions you are asked. |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by budaatum: 4:50pm On Mar 24 |
budaatum: PoliteActivist |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 4:58pm On Mar 24 |
budaatum: Can't you see that what you pointed out is nothing but a worthless point on the arrangement of words? That's why I said Politeactivist is indulging in pedantic semantics. Wasting time with the fact that the first word in the sentence was "I." Every serious thinker understands what is being said - to wit - thought requires the existence of a thinking being. The sentence could be re arranged in any number of ways and the fundamental point would remain the same. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by budaatum: 5:13pm On Mar 24 |
DeepSight: That "I", is a flaw in Descartes thinking. He does not think therefore he exists, but he first exists as a recognisable "I", and then he, that "I", thinks. The fact that he did not recognise that implies he never doubted his own existence to begin with, and nor did he doubt that he thought. And the reason it's an important distinction is that it has the potential to mislead the likes of Politeactivist who has been promoting Descartes here as evidence of his own non-existence and the existence of only his thought, as if his thought appears out of thin air. Please don't let that dishonest Politeactivist pit us against one another. I'm certain your arguement with him is unrelated to the one I have with him, and he's only dragged you here to fuel his nonsense. |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 5:16pm On Mar 24 |
budaatum: Ok o, I don hia. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 11:25pm On Mar 24 |
DeepSight: I ALREADY TOLD YOU! How many people who totally died and came came were busy thinking all the while they were dead?? And how many people get taken over by a spirit. WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THOUGHTS COME FROM!! Where do YOUR thoughts come from? |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 11:35pm On Mar 24 |
DeepSight: Falacy of avoiding the issue. Already gave you instances where there are just thoughts and nothing else - when people are dead, possessed, people one meets in dreams, etc. Ultimately it's possible this our reality is just thoughts and nothing else! "I" possibly does not exist - just an illusion of memory/thoughts! |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 11:42pm On Mar 24 |
DeepSight: So, why not just say "I speak, therefore I am"? Or "I poo, therefore I am" |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 11:57pm On Mar 24 |
PoliteActivist: In all instances you are talking about a person. Do chairs and tables get posessed, dream or have thoughts? I dont even wish to address how silly the NDE example is. This is such stupid nonsense I will say nothing further to it. You suffer severe reasoning limitations. Good night. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 5:08am On Mar 25 |
DeepSight: You'll say nothing further my dear because you have no argument. That's why instead of reasoning you are throwing tantrums. You're arguing nonsense. You simply don't reason deeply enough. In all those instances the "I" is absent. Also, you have to understand the content of Cogito. Descartes said he'd doubt anything he could conceivably doubt. Then he forgot to doubt the real likelihood that he as "I" didn't exist - that only thoughts existed and that "I" is also merely thought/memory. |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 5:12am On Mar 25 |
DeepSight: Like I've said, in all those instances the "I" is missing. Also, the only describable attribute of the thinker is thinking - thinking is the thinker! |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 5:20am On Mar 25 |
DeepSight:
You didn't answer this question |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 5:24am On Mar 25 |
budaatum: I never promoted Descartes AT ALL, not in the least. What happened was that I was being too kind to you. You were saying Cogito was flawed like it was a big new discovery of yours. I didn't want to burst your bubble by telling you I already thoroughly disected that on another thread |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 5:35am On Mar 25 |
DeepSight: Wasting what time? My friend philosophers agree that Cogito is fundamental flawed, and not only because it is falaciously worded. And you keep moronically repeating "thought requires the existence of a thinking being." like a slowpoke. Describe the "thinking being". You can't. The only describable attribute of the "thinking being" is thinking - thinking is the "thinking being"! |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 6:07am On Mar 25 |
budaatum: I just don't know where you got the idea I was promoting Descartes. I just was kind to NOT tell u what u were saying (like it was a great new discovery) was discussed long ago. It's because you joined in the middle of the threads. DeepSight was the first to cite Descartes as proof of his own existence. And I was the first and only person to tell him Cogito was disproved. Upon which he threw a tantrum that it was impossible to disprove, and then he was full of "pedantic"! |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 6:17am On Mar 25 |
budaatum: Please point out what part of the below is dishonest And also what unrelated arguement was I having with you? Disregarding that the statement is faulty in itself {It should have been: "there is thinking, therefore I am"} |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 6:33am On Mar 25 |
budaatum: You are assuming that for your thoughts to exist there has to be a separate entity called "you". Well, we are not sure the true nature of thoughts and we are not sure where thoughts come from. The ONLY describable attribute of "you" we are sure of is your thoughts. YOUR THOUGHTS ARE YOU! Which is why you can't override your thoughts, as I've pointed out earlier |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 6:42am On Mar 25 |
kkins25: Thanks for your response. Quite entertaining and lots of food for thought. Bottom line is, we are NOT SURE the true nature of reality and existence. Same way, we are not sure the true nature of thoughts. We are not sure where thoughts come from. So we should look askance at statements like "there is thinking, therefore I am"! 1 Like |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by Steep(m): 7:59am On Mar 25 |
How can you have thought without a thinking being? Do you even live in reality? Thought is solely an attribute of a thinking being. |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 8:36am On Mar 25 |
Steep: Here's what I wrote b4: Describe the "thinking being". You can't. The only describable attribute of the "thinking being" you're sure of is thinking - thinking is the "thinking being"! Can't you see that it's possible only thoughts really exist and everything else an illusion. So it's the other way round: thoughts can exist without thinking beings but thinking beings can't exist without thoughts. Ponder: where do your thoughts come from? |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by Steep(m): 8:53am On Mar 25 |
PoliteActivist:you have it backward, "thinking" is an action performed by another, a thinking being is a being that is self aware and capable of self reflection. Just like songs and singing, songs do not exist without a singer. first of all define thought? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by DeepSight(m): 9:15am On Mar 25 |
PoliteActivist: I am done with this subject as I said. Have a good day/ week. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 10:48am On Mar 25 |
Steep: EXACTLY: first of all, what is thought?! You are not sure! Just as you don't know what is water. Just as you don't know any of the stuff you met here or why they are the way they are or what this reality is all about! As far as thoughts, we know dead people who came back said they were thinking while dead. Possessed people, dreams,,etc. People who were no longer there but thinking still going on! Bottom line: we don't know the true nature of thoughts or where thoughts truly come from. Also, define you. You is your memory - thought! Wipe your memory and you no longer exist. Put another person's memory and they become you. You are thought! |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by PoliteActivist: 10:52am On Mar 25 |
DeepSight: Thanks 4 participating. See u around |
Re: Atheists Debate Religionists * by Steep(m): 11:54am On Mar 25 |
PoliteActivist:stop projecting your ignorance on others. It is you who doesn't know what thought is, you don't know anything at all. Ask a secondary school student what water is and they would tell you. You can't have a product without a producer neither a creation without a creator, it is a self defeating logic that you exhibit. Wipe your memory and you no longer exist? So people without schizophrenia no longer exist? This is the product of the woke nonsense that you folks claim as enlightenment. Nonsense. |
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