Is Jesus Really God? - Religion (12) - Nairaland
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| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 10:22pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
johnydon22: Because He said it Himself: "For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16) You can see that Jesus Christ is here said to be the uncreated Creator of all things in heaven and earth, material, spiritual, visible or invisible. Only God can create and God did not create Himself. All other "gods" are the works of men. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 10:52pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
Thsuperiorman: I took it forgranted that you are well informed but you are proving otherwise. Thsuperiorman: I can understand that it has gone over your head. It is the use of simple science and the laws of logic. Have you ever heard of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics? The possibility of the universe creating itself is what we are talking about and how it cannot be possible. Thsuperiorman: There is nothing illogical or unscientific about an Eternal Being who has always existed. Nobody created the infinite God. He is the Self-Existent One, the great "I AM THAT I AM". He is outside time because He created time. Everything that has a beginning requires a cause. The universe has a beginning and thus requires a cause. But the almighty God has no beginning since He is beyond time. Therefore, the almighty God does not need a cause. Thsuperiorman: Yes. Thsuperiorman: The sinful lifestyle that prevents you from acknowledging your Creator. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 10:54pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
Thsuperiorman: What other evidence are you looking for? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:03pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
CAPTIVATOR: Jesus, the Son, is the Creator of all things. If He created all things what else didn't He create? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:47pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
dolphinheart: You make these contrasts because you are not Christians. That is why the OP calls you cults because your dogma is not based on the word of God but on your limited faulty reasonings. I'll just address the point that Jesus Christ is the almighty God if you are not going to twist the Scriptures to suit your false doctrines. "I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star....I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Revelation 22:16,13) The Alpha and Omega affirms Christ's deity. He is both God and Man. He has all the qualities, attributes and perfections of the Almighty God. He is the complete manifestation of God in the flesh. He is both David's Creator and his descendant. You will only be able to comprehend this if you understand the doctrine of the hypostatic union. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:49pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:51pm On Dec 29, 2014 |
Horus: That is true if you know the meaning of the God/Man. The Man part died and rose again. He is alive forevermore.  |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by ptoall: 2:25am On Dec 30, 2014 |
If you are asking if the same person called Jesus Christ is the same person called God the father, No. Jesus is not God the father and he himself clarifies that throughout the scriptures, but the two of them are one, in the sense that they are in unison. They are three seperate individuals but they operate as one. This is the mystery of Trinity. Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, but he is not also God the father. Op, you just have to take some things by faith or else you will be asking who gave birth to God the father. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 10:39am On Dec 30, 2014 |
OLAADEGBU: Old Testament Parallels Prove Jesus Is God A comparison of the Old and New Testaments provides powerful testimony to Jesus’s identity as God. For example, a study of the Old Testament indicates that it is only God who saves. In Isaiah 43:11, God asserts: "I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no saviour." This verse indicates that (1) a claim to be Saviour is, in itself, a claim to deity; and (2) there is only one Saviour—the Lord God. It is thus highly revealing of Christ’s divine nature that the New Testament refers to Jesus as "our great God and Saviour" (Titus 2:13). Likewise, God asserted in Isaiah 44:24: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself" (emphasis added). The fact that God alone "makes all things" (Isaiah 44:24)—and the accompanying fact that Christ is claimed to be the Creator of "all things" (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2)—proves that Christ is truly God. Preincarnate Appearances of Christ Many theologians believe that appearances of the "angel of the Lord" (or, more literally, "angel of Yahweh”) in Old Testament times were preincarnate appearances of Jesus Christ. (The word preincarnate means "before becoming a human being.”) There are a number of evidences for this view: The angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses in the burning bush and claimed to be God (Exodus 3:6). Yet, the angel of Yahweh was sent into the world by Yahweh (Judges 13:8–9), just as Jesus was sent into the world in New Testament times by the Father (John 3:17). The angel of Yahweh prayed to Yahweh on behalf of the people of God (Zechariah 1:12), just as Jesus prays to the Father for the people of God today (Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1–2). It would seem that appearances of this "angel" could not be the Father or the Holy Spirit. After all, the Father is One "whom no one has seen or can see" (1 Timothy 6:16, NIV; see also John 1:18, 5:37). Moreover, the Holy Spirit cannot be physically seen (John 14:17). That leaves only Jesus. The angel of Yahweh and Jesus engaged in amazingly similar ministries—such as delivering the enslaved (Exodus 3; Galatians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 2:14–15) and comforting the downcast (Genesis 16:7–13; 1 Kings 19:4–8; Matthew 14:14, 15:32–39). These evidences suggest that appearances of the angel of Yahweh in Old Testament times were preincarnate appearances of Christ. Assuming this is correct, the word "angel" is used of Christ in these verses in accordance with its Hebrew root, which means "messenger, one who is sent, envoy." Christ, as the angel of Yahweh, was acting on behalf of the Father, just as He did in New Testament times. Source: https://answersingenesis.org/jesus-christ/jesus-is-god/is-jesus-god/ |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 4:42pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
[quote author=OLAADEGBU post=29321206][/quote] Sir , I dnt know ur view on Christianity because people like you have twisted the concept of being a Christian so much that a lot of people do not really understand what it means to follow jesus. I try my best to follow jesus way of life and teachings , teaching that you have so twisted that you dnt even understand it again talk less of explaining it. That is why u use phrases like "its a mystery", "the meaning of God/man , using words that dnt exist in the bible and desperately but not unitedly finding other meanings to words that are plain and straight forward in the bible. I'm not a cultist as all my beliefs and ways are all open for all the world to see and I prove my beliefs from the bible. It is you that has limited reasoning cus your case is like a man that is about to be sweept aways by the flood of truth but desperately holding on to one branch (scripture) that he thinks is his life saver. Unlike you, people you have been disccusing with do not twist and turn like you do whenever u find a scripture hard to explain or when u can't answer simple questions , they use the scriptures to explain the scriptures . They have been cutting away the falsehood u believe in from the begginning by first explaining to u the true meaning of the scriptures u urself quoted using the bible , and then using other scriptures to butress their points . So far u have not been able jto do that, you twist and turn and change direction of discussion when you know that you can't explain further, and then u try to repeatedly post ur debunked explanations hoping that if you post it several times, the falsehood might turn to truth. Well sir, that only works in politics . in this thread, the followings have been explained to you about jesus, who he is and his relationship to the father. all you have done so far is to run away from the truth like a jet fighter trying to escape a missile, spewing falsehoods thinking the missile will miss its way . 1.) It has been explained to you that jesus is distinct from the father(jehovah), they are two seperate personalities . Toward the end of his life, Jesus said: “I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.” ( John 16:28) After his death in the flesh and resurrection as a spirit, Christ ascended “into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God. Hebrews 9:24. Therefore jesus is not that God that he appeared before. that God is the father, the one true God. 2. You have been told that jesus has a God and that he himself (jesus) said it . John 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Revelation 3:12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 1 Pet. 1:3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 3. These same God is the one jesus prays to, worships, listens to, and make requests to , doing his will. This God is the one that gave jesus all the authority he has. John 17: 1-3:1. Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2. just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him.3. This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. Other bible translations render verse 3 thus : New Living Translation And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth,”.( Mt 28:18) Heb 1:9: Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (jesus has a God, jesus had fellows,almighty God does not have fellows , it was his God that anointed him, making him the Christ (anointed one). Jesus’ Father has “left nothing that is not subject to him [Jesus],” with the evident exception of “the one who subjected all things to him,” that is, Jehovah, the Sovereign God. ( 1Co 15:27; Heb 1:1-14; 2:  Matt. 4:10: “Jesus said to him: ‘Go away, Satan! For it is written, “It is Jehovah [“the Lord,” KJ and others] your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”’” (Jesus was obviously not saying that he himself was to be worshiped.) John 8:54: “Jesus answered [the Jews]: ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’” (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals. (to be continued shortly ) |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 5:00pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart: All your objections have been addressed in the following threads: https://www.nairaland.com/531625/evidence-deity-christ https://www.nairaland.com/1935208/why-does-god-refer-himself |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 5:15pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart: 4. In terms of rank, it has been explained to you the post of jesus in relation to the father. 1 Cor. 8:5, 6, RS: “Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth —as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” Paul statements presents the Father as the “one God” of Christians and as being in a class distinct from Jesus Christ. Ps. 110:1: “The utterance of Jehovah to my [David’s] Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’” (At Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he himself was David’s “Lord,” referred to in this psalm. So Jesus is not Jehovah but is the one to whom Jehovah’s words were here directed.) Phil. 2:9-11: “For this very reason also God exalted him [Jesus Christ] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. 5) . Jesus owes his life to this(his) God , He pointed to God as the Source of his life. Joh 6:56, 57: “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. 6.) In ur desperate move to use creation as the basis for calling jesus almighty God, u forgot to explain why the father was included in the explanation on how and why we are created . Here is a true understanding of the topic: The firstborn spirit Son was used by his Father in the creation of all other things. Joh 1:3; New International Version Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. New Living Translation God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. English Standard Version All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. New American Standard Bible All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.(cor 1:16, 17 ) Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” ( Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”— Col 1:16; Heb 1:2. Jesus is not a co-Creator. The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. ( Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. ( Ps 36:9) Rather than a co- Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.(Mt 19:4-6) Jesus was the firstborn of all creation Col. 1:15,: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first- born of all creation; In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first- born of all creation”? (1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies— the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof? Jesus is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God. Proverbs 8 :22(this verse is ascribed to jesus ): New International Version "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;(that is why he is the first born of all creation ) New Living Translation "The LORD formed me from the eginning, before he created anything else. (he was created by God/jehovah/father) Proverbs 8 :23: New International Version I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. New Living Translation I was appointed in ages past, at the very first, before the earth began. English Standard Version Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. (jesus was appointed to watheva position he has by his God, the father.) Proverbs 8:25 : New International Version before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, New Living Translation Before the mountains were formed, before the hills, I was born-- English Standard Version Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth, New American Standard Bible "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth; King James Bible Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: (jesus was created) Proverbs 8:30: New International Version Then I was constantly at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, New Living Translation I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence. English Standard Version then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, New American Standard Bible Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, King James Bible Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Holman Christian Standard Bible I was a skilled craftsman beside Him. I was His delight every day, always rejoicing before Him. International Standard Version Then I was with him, his master craftsman— I was his delight daily, continuously rejoicing in his presence, (jesus was the one who jehovah used in creating everything, his worksman) (To be continued shortly) |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by OLAADEGBU(m): 5:28pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart: The firstborn over all creation: https://www.nairaland.com/2012194/how-eternal-son-god-firstborn |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 5:43pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
Continued 7. Jesus is not almighty cus he does not know everything . He told the mother of zebedee that he does not know who will sit at his right hand or at his left . He told his disciples that he does not know when the conclusion of the system of things will come. John 6:44,45: No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me. 8. No one has seen the almighty God, the father. “No man has seen God at any time;the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”— Joh 1:18; 1Jo 4:12. (note: jesus was in the bossom position , not equal position) With all these said ,Now let's look at ur statement attributing jesus to the title of alpha and omega. In ur desperate bid to do this , u quoted verse 16 before verse 13, thank God the scriptures was not written in that format. This only shows ur desperate aim in twisting the bible to show ur false belief. Now let me tell u the truth While you apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. ( Re 22: Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘Iam the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God(it has been proven to you numerous times that jesus is a God , but not the almighty God) . In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.” The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.— Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12. The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.” 1 Cor. 11:3, RS: “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E., some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.) 1 Cor. 15:27, 28 RS: “‘God has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.” The Hebrew word Shad·dai′ and the Greek word Pan·to·kra′tor are both translated “Almighty.” Both original- language words are repeatedly applied to Jehovah, the Father. ( Ex. 6:3; Rev. 19:6) Neither expression is ever applied to either the Son or the holy spirit. Jesus is not the alpha and omega In conclusion I leave you with this scriptures John 17:3: King James Bible And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. That one true God is the father/jehovah. And Psalm 144:15 : “Happy is the people whose God is Jehovah! We worship what we know.”,we worship our only true God jehovah ( John 4:22, RS) Do you really know the God you worship? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Emusan(m): 6:40pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart: Do you really know the God you worship too? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by CAPTIVATOR: 7:48pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
OLAADEGBU:! Christ cant do anything on his own ..... He always do the will of His God ( Luke 22:42 .... 'let not my own will, but yours ( his God)' take place) !!! So what happen was that ..... " God use the son to made the universe" Heb 1:1,2 !! So therefore, "God subject all things under the feet of Christ, BUT when he says that 'all things have been subjected, it is evident that this does not include God himself who subject all things to Christ'" 1 Cor 15:27 !!! |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Emusan(m): 8:05pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
If not all but most Christian including JWs believe that Jesus pre-existed His birth and at the same time came down to earth but what JWs failed to put into consideration about this amazing truth is that they couldn't distinguish His Pre-existence life from His humanity. JWs believe that Jehovah transferred the LIFE of Arch-Angel Michael into the womb of Mary BUT no JWs have ever asked what happen to the body of Michael after its LIFE left its body? The very actual fact that distinguished Jesus' pre-existence life from that of His humanity is that The Word voluntarily humble Himself to enter TIME and SPACE, so Jesus didn't come to earth to act as God BUT to take on human flesh as a sacrifice. dolphinheart: Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. KJV Jesus first humble Himself before He could reclaimed that POSITION He left. 5) . Jesus owes his life to this(his) God , He This is another twisted of the scripture, how do you understand this scriptures then? 2That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have observed and our hands have felt, concerning the word of life,+ 2 (yes, [size=14pt]the life was made manifest, and we have seen and are bearing witness+ and reporting to you the everlasting life+ that was with the Father and was made manifest to us),"[/size] 1 John 1:1-2 NWT No Christian can deny these verses by attributing them to The Father, the question is if Jesus WAS called THE EVERLASTING LIFE (which is about His pre-incarnation) THAT WAS WITH THE FATHER, how can everlasting LIFE be created? 6.) In ur desperate move to use creation as the basis for calling jesus almighty God, u forgot to explain why the father was included in the explanation on how and why we are created . Here is a true understanding of the topic: The 1st underlined word never appeared in any place within the Greek scriptures but as you can see instead of using this verse to prove yourself wrong but you blindly concealed the lies. @2nd underlined-Let me add NWT so that it will complete "All things came into existence through him,+ and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. [size=14pt]What has come into existence."[/size] Now if simple English wasn't your problem you suppose to spot the lies of JWs here because if apart from him(Jesus Christ) NOT EVEN ONE thing came into existence WHAT HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE.....then how can Jesus be created? JWs claimed Jesus was created (which means Jesus came into existence ONE day) and John 1:3 says WHAT HAS COME INTO EXISTENCE (Which must include Jesus if He was actually created)...then it means Jesus is the one who created Himself. The last logic question which came first Heaven or Jesus? Let me make it clear *If it is heaven then Jesus is not the firstborn of the creation. *If it is Jesus then Jesus must have lived in eternity before heaven was created and we know that only God lives in eternity. Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” ( Ge 1:26) All these other created things were not only created “through him” but also “for him,” as God’s Firstborn and the “heir of all things.”— Col 1:16; Heb 1:2. Jehovah is the source of life BUT Jesus is the LIFE Itself, did Jehovah create His own life? Jesus was the firstborn of all creation If not because you've lost your power of reasoning to blindfolded teaching you would've spot the logic truth of Jesus being God in this your illustration. How? You said and I quote "...Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies— [size=14pt]the firstborn is part of the group..."[/size] @bold-Now if the FIRSTBORN IS PART OF THE GROUP, so which GROUP did Jesus' FIRSTBORN belong to? Remember only Jehovah existed at that time. Jesus is shown to be a created being, part What the scriptures say is that it is wisdom that is talking here and Jesus is the Wisdom of God, how can God create His own wisdom? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Nobody: 8:07pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
I will rather remain a poorman instead of marrying a richman's daughter. I will rathar remain single instead of sharing my poor world with richman's daughter. Do u know why? I am too poor to associate with people of high egoism. I was born in the street, grew up in the streets, taught in the streets, walk in the streets with the hopeless poor of the streets then i will rather stay in the streets with the street babes. ETODOLA'S DAUGHTERS & CO ARE 5BILLION MILES APART BUT THE STREET BABES ARE 1 FOOT AWAY. ha ha ha ha of cause the poor for the poor. I dont knw about u but that is me. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 9:23pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
Emusan: Sir, if u have issues with JWs, create a thread for it and state ur issues. Or send a letter to them expressing ur views . If you have problems with the NWT, create a thread for it or contact the authors. My post was a reply to someone else and not you , though I dnt mind u contributing to it . My points where made with numberings and with selected scriptures to back my points up.(scriptures explains scripture , not logic explains scriptures ) If you feel I'm wrong , go to the numbering , state ur view there , explain ur view but dnt neglect the scriptures I posted. I dnt do scatter scatter discussion. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Nobody: 9:54pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart:You argue like a jw even quoting their translation slyly. Emusan was actually exposing where you got your ideas and doctrines from and it is definitely not the bible. Are you not one of them? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 10:08pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
Bidam: Maybe this is a new method of changing the discussion. I quoted the scriptures, now the argument is on a particular translation. I explained what I understood about the scriptures I quoted , you have now shifted it to the source of my beliefs. Sir , if you feel that there is something wrong with the scriptures I quoted, number it, state it with ur own explanation using different translations .we use the scriptures to explain the scriptures to understand what the scriptures is saying |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Nobody: 10:27pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart:Are you not one of them? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Emusan(m): 10:44pm On Dec 30, 2014 |
dolphinheart: I don't need to create any thread that's why I'm sending you to them. My post was a reply to someone else and not you , though I dnt mind u contributing to it . My points where made with numberings and with selected scriptures to back my points up.(scriptures explains scripture , not logic explains scriptures ) So scriptures explain scripture the one that I quoted are they not scriptures? You agree scriptures explain scripture but what do you have to say on John 1:1? You used KJV, ASV, NLV, NIV in your previous post, so tell me if you're not a JWs do you agree with these translations in rendering of John 1:1? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 2:06pm On Dec 31, 2014 |
Emusan: Sir, I no get capacity to do scatter scatter discussion ,or finding fault in personality discussion. If you feel that I dnt understand the scriptures I quoted in relation to the topic under discussion. Go to its number, state ur view there in relation to the topic and the scriptures quoted there? . If you want to discuss any organization , contact the organization or create a thread for it. If you want to discuss bible translations, contact the translators or create a thread for it. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Emusan(m): 2:52pm On Dec 31, 2014 |
dolphinheart: Not that you don't understand those scriptures but you misrepresented their meaning. You said and I quote "scriptures explain scripture" yet you overlook the scripture where Jesus was called EVERLASTING LIFE after you said in No 5 that "Jesus owes his life to this(his) God , He pointed to God as the Source of his life. How can EVERLASTING LIFE be created? I quoted Phil 2:8 to counter your No 4 and I also expounded John 1:3 further to counter your No 6 and to show you that Jesus was never created yet you believed I never addressed any of your points. Finally, I asked a logic question to address the issue of FIRSTBORN your respond was that "Logic can't explain scripture" whereas in your copy and paste article the writer applied logic too "Logically, it was to this firstborn Son that Jehovah said:..." so can you see the harm copy and paste can cause in the life of someone who failed to read Bible on his/her own? Let me ask the question again which one came first Jesus or heaven? *if Jesus, where does He live after He was created before heaven was created? BECAUSE EVERY LIVING CREATION NEED A DWELLING PLACE. *if it is heaven, then Jesus can't be the FIRSTBORN of all creation. It's either you misrepresent the TERM FIRSTBORN or scripture is lying. I know you can't go with the latter. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 3:33pm On Dec 31, 2014 |
Emusan: Sir, one more time ill tell you I dnt do scatter scatter discussion, in ur case the scriptures might counter scriptures based on ur understanding, but in mine it explains it . Let's not argue , if you feel I'm wrong in my understanding or representation of the scriptures,or in my statements, first number them, quote what I said , quote the scripture I used to explain myself, then quote ur understanding of that scripture that I quoted before you add other scriptures or statements or questions to explain ur view. That is how I have handled the points I have issues with on this thread . I first explain my understanding of the scripture quoted and use it to explain my view . Again if you feel I dnt understand a quoted scripture, first explain what you understand on that scripture , before u add anything else . |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Nobody: 5:58pm On Dec 31, 2014 |
OLAADEGBU: Here is what I mean: If it is possible that an entity (God) COULD be self existent what logical reason could there be that other existences that evolved couldn't possess the same characteristic? I think if there is an existence that has always existed then there could be other existences too that could have always existed which makes the possibility of a universe that have always existed a factual theory based on your analogy and consequently provides 2 concrete theories that oppose each other from your perspective. 1. The universe couldn't have always existed therefore 2. A creator (God (who have always existed)) must have created it Don't give me Bible excerpts... That was written and edited by men who claim voices they heard in their heads were from a god. Give me evidences not faith-based theories that couldn't be any less made up than other religions OLAADEGBU: Isn't that just too easy, you talk your way out of having to provide a rational argument by just decreeing BY FAITH that God simply declares himself outside of time and therefore doesn't need the same kind of argument as anything else. If you're convinced by that kind of nonsense, you're welcome. OLAADEGBU: Not having a good reason to believe in a god is a sin? Holy cow! Not believing in Sango must be a sin too. |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Nobody: 8:59pm On Jan 03, 2015 |
Isaiah 53:11-12 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. So, what do you say about this one? Is the Father still equal to the son? |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by MrPresident1: 9:35pm On Jan 03, 2015 |
doubleDx: Double, God cannot be seen. God is eternally invisible, but Christ is His physical representation, in Christ Jesus is the whole Godhead represented. The Father is greater than the son for the fact that the son derives everything from his father, but at the same time the son is equal to the father because the father has given him all the power. So while God is invisible, Jesus Christ is His representation in the flesh. I and the Father are one. Yet the Father is greater than I. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by Nobody: 10:08pm On Jan 03, 2015 |
MrPresident1: I understand your point, it's glaringly written all over the scriptures...but trinitarians don't explain it like you did here! Like I told Ola earlier, I'm not denying the deity of Christ but the idea of three in One God is what I do not agree with! Hapi new yr to you el presidente! 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by MrPresident1: 10:58pm On Jan 03, 2015 |
doubleDx: Happy new year to you my Chief. I think I have an insight into the Trinity doctrine, lemme share with you; God is eternally invisible Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. 1 Timothy 1:17 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Jesus Christ is the image and personification of God Colossians 1:15 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Collosians 2:9 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. John 10:30 30 I and my Father are one. The Holy spirit John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. The constant inter-phasing of our spirit with the Holy spirit (the Word, Bible) is what makes our spirit holy. Finally, all these three are one; 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 Like |
| Re: Is Jesus Really God? by dolphinheart(m): 12:53pm On Jan 04, 2015 |
MrPresident1: Questions sir. 1).Pls can you elaborate on the statement "jesus is the image and personification of God"? 2.)is the "word" in john 1:1 the holy spirit ? 3) what is a God? 4) who is the almighty God? |
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