gensteejay:
All these "Jesus" people should stop derailing this thread with their BS. Save your nonsensical biblical beliefs for the ignorant and fearful lot like you. Let's read what OP has to say.

Enough of your bunkum! Fearful lot.

Why do you speak so arrogantly in ignorance?You can insult those who twist the Word of the Creator in order to enrich themselves, such people deserve every iota of insult poured on them, but don't insult the Word of life. Simply because men have failed the Word, doesn't make the Word ignoble.

elated177:


[s]Why do you speak so arrogantly in ignorance?You can insult those who twist the Word of the Creator in order to enrich themselves, such people deserve every iota of insult poured on them, but don't insult the Word of life. Simply because men have failed the Word, doesn't make the Word ignoble.[/s]

More trash.

LoJ:

LoL. Esoteric paths are for matured souls who among other things are ready to face their fears. Unfortunately many are not ready to, so they fall for sweet comfortable lies such as the ones provided to you in this very thread. Eventually, each person will get to that point at some time. It can take a thousand lifetime though.

Every path contrary to the Path of Righteousness, as recorded in the Scriptures of YHVH El Shaddai, leads only to sin, death and destruction. Satan is openly selling people destruction.

What happened to your other mission to 'trash' the Word of YHVH recorded by his servant, apostle Paul?

gensteejay:

More trash.

It's a faceless forum.

MuttleyLaff:




The three Rs signifies what the will of God is about, as in, has to do with doing the right thing, that's done at the right time whilst remaining on right standing with God, plus being on His terms and good side.

Would you say that homosexuality is one of the right things? Does one who engages in homosexuality in right standing with "God"?

Having dealt with modern western esoteric paths, one can't help but realize they are modern and rayionalized evolution of old raw traditions. Our opinion is that if one is looking for (rational) understandijg of the mysteries, he is probably better off going to these schools. But those that are looking for raw intuitive truths may want to consider digging a bit deeper.

Indeed esoterica can be likened to blocks. We have a reduced number and type of blocks whose addition and mixing can allow the creation of complex structures. It is therefore our opinion that basic spiritual traditions are the most powerful, difficult and liberating..

Our next posts will focus on these. We shall look at:

Kabbalah and Hermetica (Raw understanding)
Sorcery (Raw power)
Alchemy (Raw transformation).

For the sake of the readers who have to endure the emotional reaction of religious people here, we will henceforth link all useful posts comments and reactions in this thread together so that one can easily jump from one to the other. Just a couple of minutes to do that and we are good to go.

elated177:
Would you say that homosexuality is one of the right things? Does one who engages in homosexuality in right standing with "God"?

Could be in right standing with God, especially if done the right way, if not abused, if not misused etcetera.

1/ Why bring in homosexuality into this esoteric discourse?
2/ Have you got things against homosexuality?

MuttleyLaff:
Could be in right standing with God, especially if done the right way, if not abused, if not misused etcetera.

1/ Why bring in homosexuality into this esoteric discourse?
2/ Have you got things against homosexuality?

Well, you have been known to defend homosexuality.

I don't know the God/Elohim you worship. People worship a lot of things and beings and still quote the Scriptures. Since you quoted the set-apart Scriptures of the Creator of heaven and earth, I will just, for the sake if this discussion, assume he is the God/Elohim you referred to. The Scriptures are his words.

There is no right way of doing homosexuality. It is obvious you are knowledgeable. No one who calls himself or herself a servant of the Messiah should ever approve of homosexuality.

What I have against homosexuality are exactly what the Word of YHVH has against it.

I guess it is clear why I brought up the issue of homosexuality.

elated177:
Well, you have been known to defend homosexuality

I defend homosexualism, just the way and manner, I defend heterosexualism

elated177:
I don't know the God/Elohim you worship. People worship a lot of things and beings and still quote the Scriptures

Please stop hiding behind words, and come out to plainly say what you mean by this remark.

I know of only one true God, Elohim, the Godhead. It is true that satan quotes scriptures and the demons too even know scriptures as well

elated177:
Since you quoted the set-apart Scriptures of the Creator of heaven and earth, I will just, for the sake if this discussion, assume he is the God/Elohim you referred to. The Scriptures are his words.

Ah, so if you recognised, what's with the bee in your bonnet? What is it giving you concern that you had to drag out and rope in with unrelated homosexuality to this thread, huh?

elated177:
There is no right way of doing homosexuality.

There always is a right way of doing everything brother

elated177:
It is obvious you are knowledgeable

Thank you and I'll take this as a compliment, but all the glory goes to God. The homosexualism knowledge, information and epiphany are down to Him

elated177:
No one who calls himself or herself a servant of the Messiah should ever approve of homosexuality.

This is where you are completely wrong because if you call self a servant of the Most High God, you wouldnt discredit of a certain and peculiar type of homosexuality

elated177:
What I have against homosexuality are exactly what the Word of YHVH has against it.

What you have against homosexuality are drawn from exactly incredibly inadequate awareness of the facts of the word of YHVH

YHVH was and is never against homosexuality per se, but you've learned to believe this because someone, a sunday school teacher, pastor, bible class teacger etcetera passed on and gave you false and/or inaccurate information about the subject

elated177:
I guess it is clear why I brought up the issue of homosexuality.

You didnt have to bring it up on this thread. I dont see its connection with Esoteric Paths

Nwanne, listen, being gay is like being left handed. Just as some people are left handed, so, most people aren't. Nobody really knows why, except for, it's because we live in an imperfect world. It is not a matter of right or wrong here. It is a matter of thats just the way things are, and that, there is nothing abnormal in two easy going, ordinary consenting adults, minding their own businesses enjoying a life long caring, faithful, committed, truthful, honest, loving each other lasting that's life-long and loyal same-sex relationship, that has no detriment to another person, no betrayal of another person, or no cheating on another person, and not harmful to an object or neighbour

elated177, having homosexual behaviour, as in the preceded, stated clearly and in detail, context, respect and/or circumstances, is no more abnormal than being lefthanded is. It is not evil, it is not doing anybody harm and/or if homosexual, you arent necesaarily harming others with it

MuttleyLaff:
. There always is a right way of doing everything brother

Very wise words.

chrisbaxtian:



smh! we could possibly derail this thread if I decide to move along this tangent with you guys.



Word of advice, speak of only that which you know and experienced

You can try, then you'd find out I know what I'm talking about.

@ loj,

just want to encourage you with what you are doing here. for me, i have simply stopped bothering and what is happening in your thread shows exactly why i stopped bothering. those who will know will know and those who will not know will not know and even though they have eyes they will not be able to see and even though they have ears they will not be able to hear.
to reach spiritual maturity as soul to be able to understand esoteric truths is not an easy task. it takes lifetimes upon lifetimes. experiences upon experiences.

elated177:


Why do you speak so arrogantly in ignorance?You can insult those who twist the Word of the Creator in order to enrich themselves, such people deserve every iota of insult poured on them, but don't insult the Word of life. Simply because men have failed the Word, doesn't make the Word ignoble.

You can't even spot the voice speaking through him?

He is talking about fear. Who is more fearful than those who work for Satan?

benodic:
@ loj,

just want to encourage you with what you are doing here. for me, i have simply stopped bothering and what is happening in your thread shows exactly why i stopped bothering. those who will know will know and those who will not know will not know and even though they have eyes they will not be able to see and even though they have ears they will not be able to hear.
to reach spiritual maturity as soul to be able to understand esoteric truths is not an easy task. it takes lifetimes upon lifetimes. experiences upon experiences.

You really have to stop. You want people to willingly accept hell. Do you know the implications?

MuttleyLaff:
I defend homosexualism, just the way and manner, I defend heterosexualism

Please stop hiding behind words, and come out to plainly say what you mean by this remark.

I know of only one true God, Elohim, the Godhead. It is true that satan quotes scriptures and the demons too even know scriptures as well

Ah, so if you recognised, what's with the bee in your bonnet? What is it giving you concern that you had to drag out and rope in with unrelated homosexuality to this thread, huh?

There always is a right way of doing everything brother

Thank you and I'll take this as a compliment, but all the glory goes to God. The homosexualism knowledge, information and epiphany are down to Him

This is where you are completely wrong because if you call self a servant of the Most High God, you wouldnt discredit of a certain and peculiar type of homosexuality

What you have against homosexuality are drawn from exactly incredibly inadequate awareness of the facts of the word of YHVH

YHVH was and is never against homosexuality per se, but you've learned to believe this because someone, a sunday school teacher, pastor, bible class teacger etcetera passed on and gave you false and/or inaccurate information about the subject

You didnt have to bring it up on this thread. I dont see its connection with Esoteric Paths

Nwanne, listen, being gay is like being left handed. Just as some people are left handed, so, most people aren't. Nobody really knows why, except for, it's because we live in an imperfect world. It is not a matter of right or wrong here. It is a matter of thats just the way things are, and that, there is nothing abnormal in two easy going, ordinary consenting adults, minding their own businesses enjoying a life long caring, faithful, committed, truthful, honest, loving each other lasting that's life-long and loyal same-sex relationship, that has no detriment to another person, no betrayal of another person, or no cheating on another person, and not harmful to an object or neighbour

elated177, having homosexual behaviour, as in the preceded, stated clearly and in detail, context, respect and/or circumstances, is no more abnormal than being lefthanded is. It is not evil, it is not doing anybody harm and/or if homosexual, you arent necesaarily harming others with it

Pls.sir, can you use Scriptures to defend homosexuality and the right way it and be done?

And, pls tell me the usefulness of homosexuality to humans, seeing as God created everything on earth to be useful both to man and the universe.

How.does homosexuality add to the universe, With scriptures pls.

LoJ:

LoL. Esoteric paths are for matured souls who among other things are ready to face their fears. Unfortunately many are not ready to, so they fall for sweet comfortable lies such as the ones provided to you in this very thread. Eventually, each person will get to that point at some time. It can take a thousand lifetime though.

If someone fails or falls from his/her esoteric path during a lifetime, does the individual starts from scratch again in another Lifetime or starts from the previous stopping point?

benodic:
@ loj,

just want to encourage you with what you are doing here. for me, i have simply stopped bothering and what is happening in your thread shows exactly why i stopped bothering. those who will know will know and those who will not know will not know and even though they have eyes they will not be able to see and even though they have ears they will not be able to hear.
to reach spiritual maturity as soul to be able to understand esoteric truths is not an easy task. it takes lifetimes upon lifetimes. experiences upon experiences.

the Eck man glad you graced our thread. Did you read loj's opinion about Eckankar? I specifically brought it up to know what he would say. Kindly share your thoughts and set the record straight on this thread, if you feel you need to

Shepherd00:
Pls.sir, can you use Scriptures to defend homosexuality and the right way it and be done?

Please Sir, accord LoJ his due respect and decorum, by opening a thread and mention me, so that it doesnt look like you are trying so hard to sabotage and derail this exciting and interestingly unfolding thread.

I should warn you though, not to start and open a homosexuality thread you cant finish or see to the end because I've noticed that the less people know of this homosexuality matter, the more stubbornly they think they know all about it

Shepherd00:
And, pls tell me the usefulness of homosexuality to humans, seeing as God created everything on earth to be useful both to man and the universe.

How.does homosexuality add to the universe, With scriptures pls.

The ground wont be able to contain it at all, if I am to tell you the usefulness of homosexuality to human, seeing as God created everything on earth to be useful to both man and the universe, so I will coyly throw the request back at you by asking:
1/ Who is Leo Varadkar, and how does Leo Varadkar add to the universe?
2/ Who is Alan Turing, and how did Alan Turing add to the universe and you getting to be using computer, either as on a laptop, PC or smartphone?

MuttleyLaff:
Please Sir, accord LoJ his due respect and decorum, by opening a thread and mention me, so that it doesnt look like you are trying so hard to sabotage and derail this exciting and interestingly unfolding thread.

I should warn you though, not to start and open a homosexuality thread you cant finish or see to the end because I've noticed that the less people know of this homosexuality matter, the more stubbornly they think they know all about it

The ground wont be able to contain it at all, if I am to tell you the usefulness of homosexuality to human, seeing as God created everything on earth to be useful to both man and the universe, so I will coyly throw the request back at you by asking:
1/ Who is Leo Varadkar, and how does Leo Varadkar add to the universe?
2/ Who is Alan Turing, and how did Alan Turing add to the universe and you getting to be using computer, either as on a laptop, PC or smartphone?

I perceive you a Christian Homosexual

Shepherd00:
I perceive you a Christian Homosexual

I am not a Christian Homosexual. Also I hardly succumb to labelling, but to quench your curiosity, please feel free to perceive me to be a crusader, champion for the underdogs, voice for the voiceless, setting the record straight etcetera.

Shepherd00 please respect other people's LGBT sexual orientation, even if you dont understand or if it doesnt mean anything to you, it means a lot to them. Shepherd00 Life Gets Better Together (LGBT), the moment we realise and recognise that every human being, regardless of sexual orientation leanings, deserves a safe and supportive environment to live in and without feeling fear, restraint or obligation.

You left my questions unanswered, why did you do that?

LoJ:
Having dealt with modern western esoteric paths, one can't help but realize they are modern and rayionalized evolution of old raw traditions. Our opinion is that if one is looking for (rational) understandijg of the mysteries, he is probably better off going to these schools. But those that are looking for raw intuitive truths may want to consider digging a bit deeper.

Indeed esoterica can be likened to blocks. We have a reduced number and type of blocks whose addition and mixing can allow the creation of complex structures. It is therefore our opinion that basic spiritual traditions are the most powerful, difficult and liberating..

Our next posts will focus on these. We shall look at:

Kabbalah and Hermetica (Raw understanding)
Sorcery (Raw power)
Alchemy (Raw transformation).

For the sake of the readers who have to endure the emotional reaction of religious people here, we will henceforth link all useful posts comments and reactions in this thread together so that one can easily jump from one to the other. Just a couple of minutes to do that and we are good to go.

Hi Sir, I'm sorry if these questions might derail the thread. But I need your answers and opinions as you well put it in these thread.

What do you think about someone who feels he is at cross roads at the moment, having practiced Christianity, been a rosicrucian (until when faced with the dark night of the soul (so I think) but coming out of it gradually, practiced Christianity again ( even reached a height I won't want to mention here, but derail due to the hurt caused by the church politics), practiced zoaism for a while, sigils, spell casting, etc.

Having at least good knowledge and experiences with the nitty-gritty of the above mentioned areas of practice, yet still feels as if he is at cross road, not knowing which to take, that will help achieve his aims and desires in life.

Please do tell, have you experienced these before, or known or come across someone who has? What was the approach used to move forward or used to choose his path?

Thanks

cpmconsultingltd:
Hi Sir, I'm sorry if these questions might derail the thread. But I need your answers and opinions as you well put it in these thread.

What do you think about someone who feels he is at cross roads at the moment, having practiced Christianity, been a rosicrucian (until when faced with the dark night of the soul (so I think) but coming out of it gradually, practiced Christianity again ( even reached a height I won't want to mention here, but derail due to the hurt caused by the church politics), practiced zoaism for a while, sigils, spell casting, etc.

Having at least good knowledge and experiences with the nitty-gritty of the above mentioned areas of practice, yet still feels as if he is at cross road, not knowing which to take, that will help achieve his aims and desires in life.

Please do tell, have you experienced these before, or known or come across someone who has? What was the approach used to move forward or used to choose his path?

Thanks

You are like a reed in the wind. If you stand straight, face always towards the sunshine, shadows will fall behind you
Sigils, spell casting etcetera for what purpose and to what ends?
It is not and never about your aims and/or your desires in life

MuttleyLaff:
I am not a Christian Homosexual. Also I hardly succumb to labelling, but to quench your curiosity, please feel free to perceive me to be a crusader, champion for the underdogs, voice for the voiceless, setting the record straight etcetera.

Shepherd00 please respect other people's LGBT sexual orientation, even if you dont understand or if it doesnt mean anything to you, it means a lot to them. Shepherd00 Life Gets Better Together (LGBT), the moment we realise and recognise that every human being, regardless of sexual orientation leanings, deserves a safe and supportive environment to live in and without feeling fear, restraint or obligation.

You left my questions unanswered, why did you do that?

You will stand before Jesus to defend that. i'm out.

cpmconsultingltd:

Please do tell, have you experienced these before, or known or come across someone who has? What was the approach used to move forward or used to choose his path?

I will answer your question at 2 levels. Ideologically and practically. Let start with the practical level.

If I correctly capture your thoughts, what is described here is a natural phenomenon that any seeker experiences.

Nature always looks for the middle path, the state of perfect equilibrium and rest. When we swing to the left, life will force us to swing to the right with the same intensity and frequency. Hence, each time a person gives himself with dedication to a spiritual quest, at some point he will experience what you described, a movement of opposite direction that will cause this erring in the desert (rightfully called dark night).

A solution that was suggested to me then, was to take control of the pendulum yourself, through proper grounding in material things. This means regulate the frequency of your spiritual journey to correspond to your earthly one. Great Taoist Master Lao Tzu used to do a cycle of ten days: ten days of meditative practice, ten days of martial arts practice, ten days of resting cooking and relaxing with family. In tantra, it is encouraged to learn to shift from periods of spiritual activity to periods of gross matter pursuits where one gives no thoughts to the former at any level.

Find a way to be grounded in your spiritual practice (in whatever path you choose) perfectly balanced between yin and yang dimensions, and you will experience fewer and fewer such periods.

Now lets take a look at this from a higher standpoint.

LoJ:

I will answer your question at 2 levels. Ideologically and practically. Let start with the practical level.

If I correctly capture your thoughts, what is described here is a natural phenomenon that any seeker experiences.

Nature always looks for the middle path, the state of perfect equilibrium and rest. When we swing to the left, life will force us to swing to the right with the same intensity and frequency. Hence, each time a person gives himself with dedication to a spiritual quest, at some point he will experience what you described, a movement of opposite direction that will cause this erring in the desert (rightfully called dark night).

A solution that was suggested to me then, was to take control of the pendulum yourself, through proper grounding in material things. This means regulate the frequency of your spiritual journey to correspond to your earthly one. Great Taoist Master Lao Tzu used to do a cycle of ten days: ten days of meditative practice, ten days of martial arts practice, ten days of resting cooking and relaxing with family. In tantra, it is encouraged to learn to shift from periods of spiritual activity to periods of gross matter pursuits where one gives no thoughts to the former at any level.

Find a way to be grounded in your spiritual practice (in whatever path you choose) perfectly balanced between yin and yang dimensions, and you will experience fewer and fewer such periods.

Now lets take a look at this from a higher standpoint.

This is really practical advice.

Shepherd00:
You will stand before Jesus to defend that. i'm out.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
- Romans 8:1

Do you know who my Advocate is, the best SAN in the country is no match Shepherd00? My Advocate will defend me from you.

Shepherd00, you really need to lighten up, just enjoy and love others more, don't get so unneccesarily worked up over nothing and stop sipping the homosexuality Kool-Aid.

Dont you realise that our each and every life changing transformation(s) and the point at which a situation is clearly seen and understood, to start to a change in us, exactly rises, pro rata with the amount of truth we can take and take without running away from it

Now, tell me Shepherd00, how you think God will judge others for how they love and not judge you for beefing it, huh?. I dont know how you cope and live comfortably with this your bias. You see, people say, the truth is stranger than fiction... and guess what, the same truth, on that day, will incriminate you. Hiding and running away from the truth, will never make you free. Running away from the truth, is a race, no one ever wins. Make note, that the day you decide, to stop running, is the day that you arrive Shepherd00. I am out too but my door is always ajar.

MuttleyLaff:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
- Romans 8:1

Do you know who my Advocate is, the best SAN in the country is no match Shepherd00? My Advocate will defend me from you.

Shepherd00, you really need to lighten up, just enjoy and love others more, don't get so unneccesarily worked up over nothing and stop sipping the homosexuality Kool-Aid.

Dont you realise that our each and every life changing transformation(s) and the point at which a situation is clearly seen and understood, to start to a change in us, exactly rises, pro rata with the amount of truth we can take and take without running away from it

Now, tell me Shepherd00, how you think God will judge others for how they love and not judge you for beefing it, huh?. I dont know how you cope and live comfortably with this your bias. You see, people say, the truth is stranger than fiction... and guess what, the same truth, on that day, will incriminate you. Hiding and running away from the truth, will never make you free. Running away from the truth, is a race, no one ever wins. Make note, that the day you decide, to stop running, is the day that you arrive Shepherd00. I am out too but my door is always ajar.

All these preaching, you could have just pointed a few usefulness of homosexuality to mankind.

Shepherd00:
All these preaching, you could have just pointed a few usefulness of homosexuality to mankind.

You would have realised at least two, if you had committed yourself to answering those two questions instead of highfalutinly ignoring it. I am not surprised you did anyway because that is your modus operandi. If not that, you are either like a bull in a china shop, seeing red and running amok, scatter scattering everything in sight.

Let me turn your request on its head and roll it back to you. Please point out a few evilness in two easy going, ordinary consenting adults, having a caring, faithful, committed, truthful, honest, loving, lasting that's life-long and loyal, same-sex relationship, that has no detriment to another person, no betrayal of another person, or no cheating on another person, and not being harmful to an object or neighbour

MuttleyLaff:
You would have realised at least two, if you had committed yourself to answering those two questions instead of highfalutinly ignoring it. I am not surprised you did anyway because that is your modus operandi. If not that, you are either like a bull in a china shop, seeing red and running amok, scatter scattering everything in sight.

Let me turn your request on its head and roll it back to you. Please point out a few evilness in two easy going, ordinary consenting adults, having a caring, faithful, committed, truthful, honest, loving, lasting that's life-long and loyal, same-sex relationship, that has no detriment to another person, no betrayal of another person, or no cheating on another person, and not being harmful to an object or neighbour

Sir, I believe I mentioned the word 'Usefulness'. you are spinning evil instead.

Jehovah created everything to serve a purpose and ve useful to other things.
Pls, what is the Usefulness of homosexuality both to fellow men or the universe? because the Universe serves us, we serve it too

Funny thing is, Everytime I come by homosexuality in the Word, it's treated as evil.

The Benjamite clan was almost wiped out as a result of this act against a fellow Israelite. Sodom got wiped out. YHWH says anyone who does it, shd be killed.
If we were to go by that, you sir, shd be killed too for promoting it

cpmconsultingltd:
What do you think about someone who feels he is at cross roads at the moment, having practiced...

The feeling of being at crossroads is but an illusion in my opinion.

There is no great one who did not go through a number of paths, and sometimes felt desperate. As you well know, Jesus for instance had essenic training, was also likely initiated in hermetica and must have learned in India as well (as some evidence suggest). On top of that some Bible stories show he had kabbalistic knowledge.

Whether gautama Buddha, Mahomet, or others, all had gone through a number of paths, explore them, sometimes even been disappointed with them before they have found or trace their own unique paths.

What I am saying in a nutshell is, we need not think we are a crossroads and must choose one and exclude the others. We should rather take like we have graduated from a particular path, which was useful to bring us to a certain point of inner development. Spiritual traditions are not mutually exclusive, though it is recommended to focus on one at first and master it before finding bridges and connecting points to others.

cpmconsultingltd:
What was the approach used to move forward or used to choose his path?

Choosing an esoteric path depends on a number of things among which character, natural abilities, desired goals. Kabbalah for instance can be intellectually and mentally strenuous and an average mind can't stand it. Nagualism (sorcery) may require a boldness and physical strength that few naturally have.

The most important though in choosing a path should be to ensure that one "chooses a path with heart". There are as many spiritual traditions as they are (have been) tribes in the world, and all can potentially lead one to gnosis.

But a wise man chooses a path that has a heart, meaning a tradition whose ideals have a high appeal to yours. In doing so, you will thread the path with devotion and determination and hardly feel burdened because your higher self is involved.

When you choose a path that has no great appeal to you, it will consume you and it will gradually become a burden that will exhaust you.

Feel free to air further questions, remarks comments or criticism.

Greetings.

SKhanmi:
If someone fails or falls from his/her esoteric path during a lifetime, does the individual starts from scratch again in another Lifetime or starts from the previous stopping point?

Hello thank you for your question.

We have had such a case here in nairaland. The general principle is we usually spiritually continue from where we left, and there is nothing like starting from scratch. This is also true of life in general. We usually resume where we left.

However you should never perceive basic things as being of lower value. In my opinion and experience the greatest teachings of any tradition is found in the beginning. Everything else is but a commentary.

This is illustrated on the story of Hillel the rabbi, when one asked him if he could summarize the whole Torah while the person stood on one feet. Rabbi Hilel answered him that the whole law could be summed up in the golden rule while everything else was a commentary.

This is a deep truth for any seeker. The most important teaching is usually found in the basic things one learnt.

An exception can be found in some esoteric paths where one take some Vows and fail to accomplish them. It becomes a different (often dangerous) ball game altogether.