johnydon22:
LOL, we just agreed that you should make Christianity your focal point, whoever asks you such questions as above, we can both agree would be idiotic.

Okay then.

I'd say the world will be far a better place with Christianity practiced as stipulated by The Lord Jesus.

Reasons being that Christianity hurts no one.

If we love God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and love our neighbors and do to them as we'd want them do to us, what can go wrong in a society like that?

Shepherd00:

Okay then.

I'd say the world will be far a better place with Christianity practiced as stipulated by The Lord Jesus.

Reasons being that Christianity hurts no one.

If we love God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and love our neighbors and do to them as we'd want them do to us, what can go wrong in a society like that?

Quite a lot can go wrong, I dare say! To begin with, we can hardly agree what is "stipulated by The Lord Jesus" as is obvious by the number of times supposed "Christians" attack one another on this forum and claim their version is the only correct version!

And secondly, who's to say that what one wants done unto one is what another wants done unto them? Is that not the judging of another's want by one's own desires?

But I would expect that you would insist that Jesus did say "[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A31&version=NIV]Do[/url] unto others as you would have them do unto you", and “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them”, and you might even mention the Mosaic precedent that states that “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD” And if I say the Holy Spirit upgraded that to knowledge in me, I know you would say "satanic slurs buda", and yet insist that your belief in the verses I quoted for you still stands despite the fact that in the very same breathe you would have contravened those verses in which you no doubt believe!

Still yet would I admit and agree with you that if we truly did understand what religion teaches us, the world will indeed be a much better place.

budaatum:

No, I would not prefer to live in a world without religion.

It is religion that evolved into education and is the foundation of education the world over. Remove the foundation and you'd be building on air and I have not seen that accomplished anywhere.

I think religious skepticism results/evolve to enlightenment.

tintingz:
I think religious skepticism results/evolve to enlightenment.

It indeed does. One must check all things diligently. In fact, so diligently that you should read here what buda says when Moses and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel are going up the mountain and dare to suggest to buda to "wait at the bottom"!

budaatum:

It indeed does. One must check all things diligently. In fact, so diligently that you should read here what buda says when Moses and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel are going up the mountain and dare to suggest to buda to "wait at the bottom"!

Religion is about faith(just accept a situation as it is without questioning). So I don't think religion base on faith evolve to enlightenment per se, it's actually doubting and questioning these beliefs that evolve to enlightenment.

tintingz:
Religion is about faith(just accept a situation as it is without questioning). So I don't think religion base on faith evolve to enlightenment per se, it's actually doubting and questioning these beliefs that evolve to enlightenment.

Please do speak for yourself!

Is it not true that religion for some is, pack bombs on the body and blow innocent people up? Is it not true that religion for some is, love your neighbour?

If the above are both valid, and let me know if they are not please, then why can religion for some not be, "do not accept any crap unless you have diligently and honestly checked for yourself?"

budaatum:

Please do speak for yourself!

Is it not true that religion for some is, pack bombs on the body and blow innocent people up? Is it not true that religion for some is, love your neighbour?

If the above are both valid, and let me know if they are not please, then why can religion for some not be, "do not accept any crap unless you have diligently and honestly checked for yourself?"

Oga, we're talking about enlightenment here.

Questioning and doubting religious dogmas actually led to enlightenment not religion per se.

johnydon22:
True, science in fact had it's roots in *religion* and at some point in human history, religion was same as science.

philosophy bro

hopefulLandlord:
philosophy bro

Nope. I meant religion.

Science and theology are both still philosophies

budaatum:

Please do speak for yourself!

Is it not true that religion for some is, pack bombs on the body and blow innocent people up? Is it not true that religion for some is, love your neighbour?

If the above are both valid, and let me know if they are not please, then why can religion for some not be, "do not accept any crap unless you have diligently and honestly checked for yourself?"

Even though I don't agree with your convictions about religion and some related issues, your posts are usually interesting and sometimes intriguing.

Why is your moniker, budaatum, a portmanteau word formed from Buddha and Atum, 2 different gods from 2 different cultures? Hope you won't find my comment too inquisitive.

johnydon22:
Nope. I meant religion.

Science and theology are both still philosophies

I fail to see how this buttresses the statement that science had its roots in religion. or could you explain what you mean by "had its roots"?

tintingz:
Oga, we're talking about enlightenment here.

Questioning and doubting religious dogmas actually led to enlightenment not religion per se.

And I'm saying, "Questioning and doubting religious dogmas" itself can be the religion of some people.

Or am I not "talking" too?

budaatum:

And I'm saying, "Questioning and doubting religious dogmas" itself can be the religion of some people.

Or am I not "talking" too?

Can you define religion?

gensteejay:

Even though I don't agree with your convictions about religion and some related issues, your posts are usually interesting and sometimes intriguing.

Why is your moniker, budaatum, a portmanteau word formed from Buddha and Atum, 2 different gods from 2 different cultures? Hope you won't find my comment too inquisitive.

Of course you may ask. And may I congratulate you even, on being the first to be so inquisitive.

The two names say "One does not live by bread alone", and are to show two bakers that I patronized at the time, Buddha to show my path and method of seeking - mine being the Zen path which was where I was when I chose it sometime in the 90s; and Atum, being the first and most important Ancient Egyptian god to be worshipped; to show origin, which is similar to "out of Egypt I called my Son" as stated first in Hosea 11:1 and repeated in Matthew 2:13-15, and which may refer to Moses freeing the Israelites from Egypt, if one wished to consider it's (a Christian may say) spiritual meaning.

You must not "agree with my convictions" by the way, unless you have researched them for yourself and found them agreeable, if not, they are not convictions worth you agreeing with. Even after you have researched them for yourself and if you find them agreeable, then you still will not be agreeing with 'my' convictions, because by doing your own research and finding them agreeable, they are your own convictions now. Basically, if you "believe" a single word I say without researching and checking so you know for yourself, I have misled you and failed.

budaatum:

And I'm saying, "Questioning and doubting religious dogmas" itself can be the religion of some people.

Or am I not "talking" too?

That's scepticism. If that's a religion, can you tell us the god(s), holy book, tenets of worship of scepticism?

All these are well-known traits of religion.

Scepticism is an aspect in philosophy that goes as far back as the ancient times. I would like to see you present facts that can back up your assertion.

tintingz:
Can you define religion?

Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Wiki

gensteejay:

That's scepticism. If that's a religion, can you tell us the god(s), holy book, tenets of worship of scepticism?

The tenets of a sceptic is just about every single word, knowledge, experience, understanding, holy book, god etc the sceptic can lay hands on, which will lead to the sceptic "worshipping" as he or she sees fit.

I, for instance, worship God by doing God's will, which to me is, love my neighbours, and do unto others as I will have them do unto me (with a caveat), to forgive those who trespasses against me so that my trespasses can be forgiven, to feed the poor and to “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth and subdue it. To rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” ^Ref

budaatum:

Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Wiki

Ok, does questioning and doubting (scepticism) looks like that definition above?

budaatum:

The tenets of a sceptic is just about every single word, knowledge, experience, understanding, holy book, god etc the sceptic can lay hands on, which will lead to the sceptic "worshipping" as he or she sees fit.

I, for instance, worship God by doing God's will, which to me is, love my neighbours, and do unto others as I will have them do unto me (with a caveat), to forgive those who trespasses against me so that my trespasses can be forgiven, to feed the poor and to “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth and subdue it. To rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” ^Ref

Sceptists are not faith people.

budaatum:

The tenets of a sceptic is just about every single word, knowledge, experience, understanding, holy book, god etc the sceptic can lay hands on, which will lead to the sceptic "worshipping" as he or she sees fit.

I, for instance, worship God by doing God's will, which to me is, love my neighbours, and do unto others as I will have them do unto me (with a caveat), to forgive those who trespasses against me so that my trespasses can be forgiven, to feed the poor and to “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth and subdue it. To rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” ^Ref

Nothing concrete in this submission. When scepticism gets included in the list of world religions, along with other areas like sports (some people say their club or even their profession is their religion), that will make you a prophet or seer

When we are being factual, every sane person knows today's religions. Unless they want to be hypocritical.

Permit me OP to contribute to this beautiful thread.

Firstly, I will like to define Religion as a set of belief in transcending being mostly called God and/or Mind, consciousness, light, truth or infinity.

The major problem with atheism and theism is not the 'believe/denial of existence of God' but what God really is.

Human being from inception always seek for the TRUTH. Truth in this context mean conformity with external realities. The yearn for knowing 'Truth' is what brought what we refer to as Spirituality.

Spirituality is simply the search for the truth. The word spirit mean 'essence', that which is Real, that which is actually is. In this course, Man has observed that Truth is not only unchanging within some time but it is beyond time. This is why Ifa says 'bi oni ti ri ola o ri bẹẹ, ni mu babaláwo dafa ni ororun (the reality now is not same as next moment which is the reason Babalawo divines everytime).

For the fact, upon spirituality is what religion, philosophy, science and every subject that seek about reality is founded on.

Spirituality gave birth to modern science. In all cultures across the world, science is centred on observation of the physical world, the reality as defined by the mind. Spirituality focus primarily on the observation of the physical world, and world beyond; the reality as defined by understanding essence of the mind.

Sceince also seek the Truth. However, it is limited to what is detectable. In scientific sense, what I cannot see does not exist. See in that context mean detectable by our senses, observable and measurable. Spirituality rather seek for truth beyond time or 'eye'. It query the authenticity of the sight if it is an illusion and focus more on mind, consciousness and experience.

So, religion came because those who are lazy to experience truth or reality by themselves are subjected to accept thought and experiences of others who took their time to seek for truth.

In a simple term, religion is the search for truth through others experiences. Others here are the prophets, saints, pastors or imams.

While spirituality doesn't have a set or rules, a so called Saint would deploy rules that will guide his believers on how to reach what they are looking for; truth.

The question we will set aside for another day, Is TRUTH objective or subjective

The question at hand, should religion be scrapped?

Simple and straight answer, NO.

Even when there are alot of dogma and dangerous form of indoctrination and rituals in religion, there are substances of TRUTH in it too. Therefore, we should rather focus more on separating the dogma from reality.

Should we scrap Buddhism and let it philosophy die because it is a religion? Should we scrap Yoga with it health benefit because it is religion practice?

Ifa encompasses philosophy, medicine, history, poem, music, art, and general science. Should we scrap it because it also entails some form of religion?

Before someone will come out and say orthodox medicine are pure science, my experience have convinced me not to accept those claims. Aside herbs which are found in Ifa to treat a particular ailment, there are some practises that are beneficiary to our health and society which ain't scientific.

A quick example. My second child has a hole in his head. It is called Ilari or oka in Yoruba. We used silverbird for my first son butit doesn't work for my second child. When we travelled home last week, my wife granny who happens to be Osun worshipper observed the child and prescribed a solution for us. She instructed us to get water from the canoe. I travelled to another villa in Ogun to get the water. And it the hole closed up after using the solution in 2 days.

The granny source of this knowledge is spirituality. She knows these things from the so called nonsense practices she is into. What is the scientific explanation to water in canoe healing hole in the skull? I don't know but we should know before dismissing everything.

Maybe because of how we are brought up in Yoruba land. I don't have problem with religion or desire to ses it scrapped. It is the way through which people seek truth. Even when we don't agree in many things, there are still some truth in their experience which shouldn't be thrown away.

Thanks

budaatum:

The two names say "One does not live by bread alone", and are to show two bakers that I patronized at the time, Buddha to show my path and method of seeking - mine being the Zen path which was where I was when I chose it sometime in the 90s; and Atum, being the first and most important Ancient Egyptian god to be worshipped; to show origin, which is similar to "out of Egypt I called my Son" as stated first in Hosea 11:1 and repeated in Matthew 2:13-15, and which may refer to Moses freeing the Israelites from Egypt, if one wished to consider it's (a Christian may say) spiritual meaning.

Quite interesting.

budaatum:
You must not "agree with my convictions" by the way, unless you have researched them for yourself and found them agreeable, if not, they are not convictions worth you agreeing with. Even after you have researched them for yourself and if you find them agreeable, then you still will not be agreeing with 'my' convictions, because by doing your own research and finding them agreeable, they are your own convictions now. Basically, if you "believe" a single word I say without researching and checking so you know for yourself, I have misled you and failed.

I don't agree with your convictions on religions, especially about the Bible and Christianity in general. And my conclusion is based on research -- just like my conclusions on religion is also based on years of research. So this has nothing with belief, faith, and the likes.

FOLYKAZE:
Permit me OP to contribute to this beautiful thread.

Firstly, I will like to define Religion as a set of belief in transcending being mostly called God and/or Mind, consciousness, light, truth or infinity.

The major problem with atheism and theism is not the 'believe/denial of existence of God' but what God really is.

Human being from inception always seek for the TRUTH. Truth in this context mean conformity with external realities. The yearn for knowing 'Truth' is what brought what we refer to as Spirituality.

Spirituality is simply the search for the truth. The word spirit mean 'essence', that which is Real, that which is actually is. In this course, Man has observed that Truth is not only unchanging within some time but it is beyond time. This is why Ifa says 'bi oni ti ri ola o ri bẹẹ, ni mu babaláwo dafa ni ororun (the reality now is not same as next moment which is the reason Babalawo divines everytime).

For the fact, upon spirituality is what religion, philosophy, science and every subject that seek about reality is founded on.

Spirituality gave birth to modern science. In all cultures across the world, science is centred on observation of the physical world, the reality as defined by the mind. Spirituality focus primarily on the observation of the physical world, and world beyond; the reality as defined by understanding essence of the mind.

Sceince also seek the Truth. However, it is limited to what is detectable. In scientific sense, what I cannot see does not exist. See in that context mean detectable by our senses, observable and measurable. Spirituality rather seek for truth beyond time or 'eye'. It query the authenticity of the sight if it is an illusion and focus more on mind, consciousness and experience.

So, religion came because those who are lazy to experience truth or reality by themselves are subjected to accept thought and experiences of others who took their time to seek for truth.

In a simple term, religion is the search for truth through others experiences. Others here are the prophets, saints, pastors or imams.

While spirituality doesn't have a set or rules, a so called Saint would deploy rules that will guide his believers on how to reach what they are looking for; truth.

The question we will set aside for another day, Is TRUTH objective or subjective

The question at hand, should religion be scrapped?

Simple and straight answer, NO.

Even when there are alot of dogma and dangerous form of indoctrination and rituals in religion, there are substances of TRUTH in it too. Therefore, we should rather focus more on separating the dogma from reality.

Should we scrap Buddhism and let it philosophy die because it is a religion? Should we scrap Yoga with it health benefit because it is religion practice?

Ifa encompasses philosophy, medicine, history, poem, music, art, and general science. Should we scrap it because it also entails some form of religion?

Before someone will come out and say orthodox medicine are pure science, my experience have convinced me not to accept those claims. Aside herbs which are found in Ifa to treat a particular ailment, there are some practises that are beneficiary to our health and society which ain't scientific.

A quick example. My second child has a hole in his head. It is called Ilari or oka in Yoruba. We used silverbird for my first son butit doesn't work for my second child. When we travelled home last week, my wife granny who happens to be Osun worshipper observed the child and prescribed a solution for us. She instructed us to get water from the canoe. I travelled to another villa in Ogun to get the water. And it the hole closed up after using the solution in 2 days.

The granny source of this knowledge is spirituality. She knows these things from the so called nonsense practices she is into. What is the scientific explanation to water in canoe healing hole in the skull? I don't know but we should know before dismissing everything.

Maybe because of how we are brought up in Yoruba land. I don't have problem with religion or desire to ses it scrapped. It is the way through which people seek truth. Even when we don't agree in many things, there are still some truth in their experience which shouldn't be thrown away.

Thanks

I fully agree with your submission, especially this assertion, "Spirituality gave birth to modern science." Using words like "spirituality", "ifa", and the likes when discussing with atheists could lead to a series of inconclusive arguments with atheists, and when I am not in the mood for debates, I tend to avoid such terms.

What is Ifa to you?

gensteejay:

I fully agree with your submission, especially this assertion, "Spirituality gave birth to modern science." Using words like "spirituality", "ifa", and the likes when discussing with atheists could lead to a series of inconclusive arguments with atheists, and when I am not in the mood for debates, I tend to avoid such terms.

It is very important to talk about those words and understand the terminologies before diving into any discussion. Without that, we go round in an endless circle as we have seen in many cases in the past.

It also makes me wonder what atheism is focused on. Is it the existence of God? God in what sense, what concept, what understanding?

Is their understanding limited to Abrahamic religion or encompasses all non theistic and philosophical religion like Jainism.

Do atheists view of God limited to theistic concept of God or goes beyond/into pantheism, deism, ignotheism, and other concepts?

How does it view God in the sense of African spirituality?

Too many problems

gensteejay:
What is Ifa to you?

Ifa is a body of knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the universe. It holds the secrets, hidden knowledge about the world, nature and society, people and person.

hopefulLandlord:


I fail to see how this buttresses the statement that science had its roots in religion. or could you explain what you mean by "had its roots"?

Already done so above

gensteejay:

I don't agree with your convictions on religions, especially about the Bible and Christianity in general. And my conclusion is based on research -- just like my conclusions on religion is also based on years of research. So this has nothing with belief, faith, and the likes.

There is absolutely no reason why you must agree with my "convictions". In fact, I doubt you know my "convictions", so how could you possibly agree or disagree? Are you mistaking me for some sort of messiah, or assuming my so called "convictions" are the whole truth? I, personally, hope I am not that arrogant, or stupid, as the case may be and in my opinion. The important thing is that you do research and develop convictions of your own, I would think.

That said, the parenthesis, are to denote that I haven't a clue what you mean by "my convictions" and I honestly didn't know I had any. So please enlighten me. I'd be very interested in knowing what "convictions" of mine you disagree with, and why, because it just might be that my "convictions" are wrong and you would be helping me find the right "convictions". I am most grateful in advance.

gensteejay:

Nothing concrete in this submission. When scepticism gets included in the list of world religions, along with other areas like sports (some people say their club or even their profession is their religion), that will make you a prophet or seer

When we are being factual, every sane person knows today's religions. Unless they want to be hypocritical.

Then I guess you would need to conclude that I am insane since I do not appear to be one of those "every sane person" who "knows today's religions".

Do note the definition of "religion", as given by wiki:

Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Wiki

Would you agree that since wiki has it that since "there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion", therefore, wiki too is not one of those "every sane person" who "knows today's religions", and is therefore insane like I am?

tintingz:


Sceptist are not faith people.

This "sceptic" has immense faith (confidence and trust), in what this "sceptic" knows because this "sceptic" has done and continues to do her research.

FOLYKAZE:


It is very important to talk about those words and understand the terminologies before diving into any discussion. Without that, we go round in an endless circle as we have seen in many cases in the past.

It also makes me wonder what atheism is focused on. Is it the existence of God? God in what sense, what concept, what understanding?

Is their understanding limited to Abrahamic religion or encompasses all non theistic and philosophical religion like Jainism.

Do atheists view of God limited to theistic concept of God or goes beyond/into pantheism, deism, ignotheism, and other concepts?

How does it view God in the sense of African spirituality?

Too many problems

Yes, too many problems. That's why, on leaving religion sometime ago, I embraced irreligion and the art of seeking knowledge with research -- not atheism. Perhaps Nl Atheists can shed more light on these problems.

FOLYKAZE:
Ifa is a body of knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the universe. It holds the secrets, hidden knowledge about the world, nature and society, people and person.

OtemAtum maintains that Ifa was a man, specifically a seer (or a philosopher, not sure about that). Have you read his account about Ifa in the book of universal history, inspired by Atum (one of the gods of Ancient Egypt) he is presenting compiling?

budaatum:

Then I guess you would need to conclude that I am insane since I do not appear to be one of those "every sane person" who "knows today's religions".

I can see you took offence about my earlier remark. Sorry, no insult was meant.

budaatum:
Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Wiki

Would you agree that since wiki has it that since "there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion", therefore, wiki too is not one of those "every sane person" who "knows today's religions", and is therefore insane like I am?

Ok. Though I don't agree with your view. This back-and-forth will lead to another series of arguments, which I am not interested in for now.

gensteejay:

Yes, too many problems. That's why, on leaving religion sometime ago, I embraced irreligion and the art of seeking knowledge with research -- not atheism. Perhaps Nl Atheists can shed more light on these problems.

They have tried but can't

I personally would have love to explore tradition spirituality through Orisha but I will not find much info without been initiated into the circle. Same applies to grail message and enkancar and the likes.

gensteejay:
OtemAtum maintains that Ifa was a man, specifically a seer (or a philosopher, not sure about that). Have you read his account about Ifa in the book of universal history, inspired by Atum (one of the gods of Ancient Egypt) he is presenting compiling?

I dont know about what he said. The Ifa system was brought by Orunmila (God of wisdom in Yoruba).

tintingz:
Ok, does questioning and doubting (scepticism) looks like that definition above?

I'm sorry, I don't get you. You cannot possibly be claiming one cannot be sceptical about "religion", the definition of which "there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes it". Or are you? Why should a definition given for "religion" look like a definition for "scepticism"?

The definition above was given as a definition of "religion", and not a definition of "scepticism", which generally means "a questioning attitude or doubt towards one or more items of putative knowledge or belief or dogma or philosophy, particularly epistemology, and can be applied to any topic such as politics, religion, philosophy and pseudoscience etc", according to Wiki, and to God, according to me and as shown by my going up the mountain with Moses and Aaron and the 70 et al, which is scepticism par excellence if you asked me, and about God, which is often a topic of religion.