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Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 10:10pm On Jun 27, 2019 |
DeOTR:Yes you are correct! Gehenna is used as a symbol for something. That thing is: 1. Gods refuse dump 2. A place where "the rejected souls" are put Jesus never taught that it is a place of annihilation otherwise according to you, death is a sufficient form of unconscious state or termination of existence. Jesus warned that it is better entering the kingdom of God battered here on earth than having everything on earth but loosing your soul in God's refuse dump. Mar 9:43-48: "And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire : Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched." If HELL was just annihilation, the worst God can do isn't different from what man can do. Luk 12:4-5: "And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him." After God has killed, He has the power to cast the dead person into Hell! Compare with: After Man has killed, he has the power to bury the dead person in the ground! As JWs, the two is exactly the same: then why should anyone fear God! |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 12:07am On Jun 28, 2019 |
DeOTR:Let's look at the Scripture again: Rev 6:9-11: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." 1. If they were not literal souls, how about their fellow brethren who are yet to be killed: are those ones also symbolic? 2. If they were not literal souls, how about those who dwell on the earth: are those ones also symbolic? 3. If the souls were symbolic, what is the meaning of "white robes were given unto them"? : they are supposed to be unconscious and non-existent! You keep on hammering on Ecclesiastes 9:5 without looking at the context. The context is "A Corpse feel Nothing"! And this is very correct. Let me also give you an example how you JWs misuse Ecc9:5 Suppose I say Resurection doesn't exist because Job 14:14: "If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Would that be correct? The whole of the old testament never spoke about several things which we only knew at the time of Jesus. e.g. Demons and Deliverance, Spiritual Death, Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna, second Death, Spiritual Death etc Would you agree that a Spiritually Dead person knows nothing? If a spiritually dead person knows nothing, then no one can be saved because we were all formally dead spiritually. Ephesians 2:1-3 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else Dan 12:2: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Do you think an unconscious person can feel any shame? DeOTR: When God created Animals, they also breathe air. Do you think humans breath because of a physical breath from God? The Difference between humans and animals is exactly what God did so that man became an eternal soul (living soul). It is the Spirit of God that did this. Man became a spirit being on the day God breathed into him. When God created man, man was already a soul just like the animals: it took the breath of the Spirit of God to make man a living soul (eternal/ spirit personality) That is why God said: Gen 2:17: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die." On the day you eat, to shall die! Did Adam and Eve die (on the day the ate of the tree? Yes, they did! For the Scriptures describe three kinds of death. 1. Physical Death 2. Spiritual Death 3. Second Death Living soul could mean 1. Soul : Person 2. Soul: The inner you which make you have a Will, Emotion and Intelect/Intelligence. 3. Soul: Everything that has life DeOTR:What is death? Death is not a complete cessation of life and unconscious state but a Disconnection/Separation! Let me apply this to the kinds of death in the Scriptures! 1. Physical Death: Disconnection/Separation between the union of a person/animals Body from His Soul 2. Spiritual Death: Disconnection/Separation between the union of a persons spirit and God 3. Second Death: Eternal Disconnection/Separation between the union of a persons Body, Soul and Spirit from God Apply your own definition of death to these three form of death and see if it makes sense. God intended man to be physical hence the need for resurrection. Jesus said: God isn't the God of the dead but of the living. Mar 12:27 : "He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: you therefore do greatly err." The soul of a person doesn't die with physical death. It goes back to God the giver of life. The Bible not pagan idea showed us that man is a triune being 1Ths 5:23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; [/b]and I pray God your whole [b]spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Thief asked Jesus to remember him and Jesus said: Luk 23:42-43: "And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you[b] be with me in paradise." [/b] Paradise isn't the grave. It is the place where righteous souls went. Hence the soul doesn't terminate with Physical death. Jesus taught that the soul survives physical death Luk 16:22-24: "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." Interestingly, the fact that Jesus called the dead "sleeping" is a proof that they are not dead for if you used a pin on a dead person, he wouldn't know anything but not so for a sleeping person. |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 12:48am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Spiritual body comes after ressurection . Relax 1 Cor 15:44, Jesus ressurect to have that
The same reason why Lazarus corpse was carried by angels , yet such doesn't happen today. The story isn't real . The rich man was present bodily too, do such occur today ? Do people dissapear with their body to your fictional hell ? Use your BRAIN |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 12:53am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Are human two hands and feet thrown into Gehenna into Jesus day ? Yeah it make perfect sense Jesus never speak of Living people in Gehenna , no wonder you are gasping to answer if human bodies go to hell presently . |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 12:59am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Am thinking of how to help you, Your case is a pathetic one. shadeyinka: Nobody has a spiritual body Until Ressurection . 1 Cor 15:44,46 . what is physical is first. Ressurection hasn't happen. Relax
The seals are ILLUSTRATIONS. Even Stars fall inside the earth , Hades walk , and death rides a horse . in each of these seals., do you believe this are Real too? Receive sense |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by DeOTR: 1:08am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka:The souls under the alter of God are symbolic, not literal. So you seriously think souls of the dead live under an alter in heaven? Is that your own idea of after life? I am to explain how a blood can cry from the ground. Since the blood of Abel crying from the ground and the souls of the Martyrs crying to God sound literal to you, please explain that of the blood too. You keep on hammering on Ecclesiastes 9:5 without looking at the context. The context is "A Corpse feel Nothing"! And this is very correct.No one is saying resurrection doesn't exist, but it's not immediately after death. This verse further buttress the fact that the dead are lying in wait for the second coming of Christ. Isn't that what the Bible says? The whole of the old testament never spoke about several things which we only knew at the time of Jesus. e.g. Demons and Deliverance, Spiritual Death, Hades/Tartarus/Gehenna, second Death, Spiritual Death etcThis is what you call spiritual death? Well, if by spiritual death you are mean being disconnected from God through sin, that's correct, but there's nothing here that suggests a spirit inside you died. Dan 12:2:Read again, those who feel the shame were also resurrected just like those resurrected to everlasting life. They can't be said to be dead again since they've woken up. When God created Animals, they also breathe air. Do you think humans breath because of a physical breath from God?This is purely your personal opinion, not from the Bible. You read it from the passage that man was formed out of the dust and when God animated him by His breath, he became a living soul. How now you think he already became a soul already before receiving the breath of God is beyond me. You see? By your teaching man is already living even before becoming a living soul, but as you can see, the Bible disagees with that. That is why God said:That number two doesn't follow. Our brains gave us our intelligence and emotions. That's why human brains are bigger. We're created to be rational beings, and this has nothing to do with any unseen inner soul. What is death?Why would God intended for man to be physical yet created an unseen soul? Jesus said: God isn't the God of the dead but of the living.I'll touch this later. But you know that the sleep that we're talking about, those they're sleeping will only wake up at the last day? By sleep, it means the death is temporary. The second death is the permanent death and the effect is everlasting. That's the import of using sleep. |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 1:08am On Jun 28, 2019 |
OLAADEGBU: Don't worry, u will meet your Head ache below
The rich man has Eyes and Tongue, are thses spirit or flesh ?
Spirit RETURN to God ! Fine. When Jesus died and his spirit return, Was he in heaven that day ? Cc: Barristt07
When did the bosom of Abraham became Paradise ? Are u just deliberately lying The scripture never said Sheol is divided into two places.
Where did it say Paradise was emptied? Hades hasn't empty anyone. rev 20:13 Even those in the sea are not in Your hell. Why ? Yeye |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 1:12am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Only the living, move and exist - Act 17 vs 28 It has been quoted previously here |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 7:25am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4:Lazarus corpse wasn't carried by angels. Lazarus soul/spirit was. Lazarus body probay never got any decent burial because he was a begged. Every human being is both a Body and a Spirit. 1Ths 5:23: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 7:36am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4: Mar 9:43-48: "And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into Where did the bible say people hands and legs are thrown into gehenna? The Scripture is about [b]YOU having your members complete not about arms and legs. Except your comprehension is at kindergarten level would you see it as you have seen it! Abraham wasn't Physical was he? If Abraham isn't Physical but still alive, what make you think the Scriptures was refering to Physical Lazarus? |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 7:44am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4: If you believe that the Scripture Rev 6:9-11: "And when he had opened the fifth seal , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of 1. Those who were slain? 2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"? 3. Told to rest a little while? 4. Given white robes? 5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth? 6. Those who dwell on the earth. If you cannot, keep quiet and stop preaching heresies! |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 7:48am On Jun 28, 2019 |
DeOTR:If angels and demons can exist without physical brains, your brain isn't important except in the Physical world. You can see that your definition of death does not fit into physical, spiritual and second death. Death to you is a form of annihilation isn't it? For me, death is a Disconnection/Separation Sleep means they are NOT dead but living Just like Abraham and Lazarus Mat 22:32: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Luk 20:38: "For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live to him." |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 8:00am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4:If Angels need no bodies to exist, what do you think happens to humans. I don't know why you always misquote and misapply Scriptures Acts 17:28: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." In God we live and move and have our being is what the Scripture is saying |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 8:04am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Angels have spiritual bodies. Like the heavenly one, so are those who belong to heaven .
To move and have our being ( Exist) the Red is important. , That's the opposite of death. |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 8:06am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: I can't spoon feed you, If you do not believe the other seals where Death rides horse, Stars fell on earth are Real. Shut your mouth. |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 8:09am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Look at the red, Hands and feet casted into Gehenna. That's what Jesus pronounced. Your silly sef said hell is correct, Then Has any corpse disappeared to hell with their body ?
Was Lazarus buried ? What happen to his body? You don't have sense |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Jozzy4: 8:14am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Shadeyinka He can dip his fingers in Physical water which us meant to cool the tongue of physical beings. Wasn't even buried, but his corpse carried by angels . This is where you will get your neck hanged. How many such have you seen happen ? |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:27am On Jun 28, 2019 |
OLAADEGBU OLAADEGBU: highlight the difference ?
Does it escape your notice that the rich man was present with his physical body, Eyes, Tongue, could drink water ? Is that what you preach today about those in hell ?
Extinction means something doesn't exist anymore. According to Act 17:38 , Only we the living move and EXIST. Does that not expose your bias and lies ? If something lives or still exist in whatever form, its still alive.
That verse said every spirit, which means either winner or righteous returns to God. Where ? Your postulation would mean even sinners went to heaven .
Human tradition say so! Not scripture
How did you equate the bosom chest of one man into paradise ?
Sheol hasn't release any dead person, is Revelation 20:13 missing in your Bible ? Separation? The question is Are they not in existence ? When someone still exist, they are alive. You can give your eternal death as separation but alive to your gullible friends. No sensible person would buy that from you. 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:28am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4:I saw that rubbish post, olaadegbu probably forgotten both Sheol and Hades are the same 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:31am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4: I saw it, the level of ignorance on this thread is alarming, Shadeyinka, are this worms physical or spiritual , do worms have spirits too ? Its getting interesting you can google the picture of worms for better comprehension before you reply 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:35am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Sheol isn't Gehenna , if you agree, rendering both as Hell is a wrong translation . Because they carry different meaning. Sheol isn't a literal place, no such spacious place exist in the universe ( Isa 5;14) but refers to a condition of been dead . Gehenna is a place outside ancient Jerusalem, no living beings are thrown there. So Jesus wasn't teaching something God said has never come to his mind which is burning people in fire - Jer 7:31. But those in Sheol ( Mankind Grave) will be ressurected : Rev 20:13 Any corpse thrown into Gehenna is viewed by the Jews as unworthy of a burial and a Ressurection. So Gehenna becomes a symbol of anyone God would not ressurect. 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:46am On Jun 28, 2019 |
But their body isn't in hell right Now , is it ? Jesus : Body and soul in hell ALBHAGDADI : No, soul alone in hell Why fighting your Lord ? alBHAGDADI: Now you are bringing various aLBHAGDADI ideas, Its not called " weak life " . Point of correction. For them to get burnt, are they alive ? And for how many years ? Answer that two question , to see if they have eternal life or not. 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 8:47am On Jun 28, 2019 |
DeOTR:We know that the book of Revelation is partly literal and partly symbolic. If you claim a part is literal it should be justified, if symbolic, it should also be justified and if a mixture, it should be justified. Hence, If the souls in question are symbolic, apply it to answer: Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of 1. Those who were slain? 2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"? 3. Told to rest a little while? 4. Given white robes? 5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth? 6. Those who dwell on the earth. DeOTR:Job doesn't seem to agree with that! Job is saying death is permanent. He doesn't even give any hope of Resurection. What is the lesson here: Don't build Doctrine through a single text of the OLD testament for you will arrive at a wrong interpretation just like Eccl 9:5: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Even Exclusive 9:5 seem to preclude the possibility of any Resurection of the dead. DeOTR:Of course death is a Disconnection/Separation NOT a termination/annihilation. That is why the word Disconnection/Separation can be used within the context of every form of death in the Scriptures and still make sense. Spiritual death doesn't mean the spirit of man become DEAD (terminated/annihilated) but DISCONNECTED/SEPARATED from God because of SIN DeOTR:You are still looking at death from the point of view of termination/annihilation and not Disconnection. The purpose of Resurection is to return man to the state in which he was created: a glorified physical being not simply a spirit being. The evil were woken up to everlasting SHAME! If the second death annihilated them, their shame cannot be said to be everlasting. Do you agree with my definition of death? Do you think it breaks down in application? DeOTR: It doesn't dawn on you that the Brain is just the physical hardware on which our soul/spirit operates. When you say: "I am happy", who are you referring to? Is it your Body or the You who lives inside your Body? I actually find it a little amusing with you guys for the reason that 1. You believe that miracles have ceased to be (because Jesus doesn't use you for anything supernatural) 2. At the same time, you believe that satan is still operating through some people by performing "spectacular miracles" 3. So that, whenever you see something out of the ordinary, you attribute it it satan even when you know it was done in Jesus name. Your wrong doctrines is what has limited you permanently to the earthly. If with everything you teach and believe, we can also see apart from good character the evidence that Christ has commissioned you to serve him in Preaching, Healing and Deliverance of people from Demonic affliction, we can take you a little serious. Or why do you think Jesus stopped using JWs for Healing and Deliverance but use other Christians? |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:50am On Jun 28, 2019 |
alBHAGDADI: You mean Sheol ? Yeah psalm 16:10 says Sheol. He went to preach in the Grave ? 1 Like
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Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:54am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: Was Jesus returned to a Glorified physical body ? Does a Glorified body has defects like Wounds and Scars ? So A person with hunchback will return with that Defect ? I feel like giving you a knock to restore your sense 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 8:57am On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: I always tell you that quoting scripture doesn't equate understanding it. Not at all. From the highlight What does God Cast into Hell ? A. Body B. Soul C. BOTH soul and body 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by Barristter07: 9:00am On Jun 28, 2019 |
haywizzy007: 1 Like |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 11:43am On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4:In Him (God) is the key word! Jozzy4:That's why you dodge explaining the symbolic significance of any of Rev 6:9-11: "And when he had opened the fifth seal , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of 1. Those who were slain? 2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"? 3. Told to rest a little while? 4. Given white robes? 5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth? 6. Those who dwell on the earth. If you cannot, keep quiet and stop preaching heresies! Jozzy4: Jesus was referring to the person who has the hands and legs. Mar 9:43-48: "And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life , than having two feet to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump , into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes [/b]to be cast into hell the municipal refuse dump fire: Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched." Ok! What is the spiritual lesson Jesus was teaching about the Municipal Refuse dump! Jozzy4: What do you think was the meaning of "Jesus Parable"? You've not been able to answer this simple question. One day, you'll die only to see that you haven't ceased to exist but have been fooled and you fool yourself. I pity you! |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by shadeyinka(m): 4:50pm On Jun 28, 2019 |
Barristter07:Jesus wasn't speaking about the literal Physical gehenna. Jesus was speaking of a place of torment! It was rendered as hell in English translations. Those who want to hide the fact that Judgement exist for both the good and the evil refuse to translate it into other than gehenna. So, how did the rich man enter gehenna? He was buried, wasn't he? I have highlighted your lie in bold. Unworthy of Resurection? Gehenna was simply a refuse dump. And Living beings animal or man were not thrown there as at the time of Jesus. You've not explained the "parable" Jesus was teaching! Yes, Sheol isn't Gehenna! Sheol means several things depending on the context 1. The place where the dead goes or abode of the dead 2. The grave/under the earth In the old testament, there was no distinction between the good, the evil or even the animals in Sheol . It was in the new testament that we know that the place of the dead is not uniform. There is Hades or Tartarus and when used as a figure of speech Gehenna. So, if Jesus wasn't refering to the Literal Physical Gehenna as the Municipal Refuse Dump what do you think Gehenna should be translated to in English (note: Gehenna isn't a translation, it is a transliteration) Barristter07: A glorified physical body is a perfect body that has the extraordinary capabilities of both physical and spiritual nature. If Jesus chose to retain the mark of Crucifixion, what is that to you? Does that invalidate his majesty? Don't forget that the same Jesus appeared to John in Revelation as white Haired and eyes burnings like fire? Rev 1:14: "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;" It is JWs who will return as hunchbacks at Resurection! My questions, you didn't answer: symbolic. If you claim a part is literal it should be justified, if symbolic, it should also be justified and if a mixture, it should be justified. Hence, If the souls in question are symbolic, apply it to answer: Is 100% symbolic, would you please explain the symbolic meaning of 1. Those who were slain? 2. What it meant by "they cried with a loud voice"? 3. Told to rest a little while? 4. Given white robes? 5. The fellow brothers that should be killed on the earth? 6. Those who dwell on the earth. Barristter07: In Hell: the soul/spirit In the Lake of Fire: the body , soul/spirit After God has killed, He has the power to cast the dead person into Hell! Compare with: After Man has killed, he has the power to bury the dead person in the ground! If all God can do is to kill just as man could, there is no reason to fear Him. Luk 12:4-5: "And I say to you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom you shall fear: Fear him, which after he has killed has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, Fear him." |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by OLAADEGBU(m): 5:15pm On Jun 28, 2019 |
Jozzy4: Man consists of spirit, soul and body all of which is a replication each other in shape. Jozzy4: He went to paradise on that day as He had assured the thief on His right side. At least you now believe that the spirit can return to God and not be extincted or annihilated. Jozzy4: You can ask Jesus to address your question, He is the One who said it unless you are accusing Him of lying. Jozzy4: Rather, the Watchtower magazine never said Sheol is divided into two places. Jozzy4: Paradise was emptied when Christ took with Him at His ascension the Old testament saints. (See Ephesians 4:8-10). Jozzy4: Those who have gone to a watery grave where the chemicals of their bodies have been dissolved in the waters of the sea will be raised. God will have no difficulties in putting together their atoms again. The graves on earth will give up their bodies and Hades, the place where spirits of the lost go will be emptied for this judgment. This is where you should ask yourself about your false theology. If the dead's spirit goes into extinction after death as you have been led to believe, how will what is extinct become resurrected? In what body will it be resurrected since the previous one has been annihilated, according to your theology? |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by OLAADEGBU(m): 5:53pm On Jun 28, 2019 |
Barristter07: The difference is between the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul. Paul answers that question (See 1 Corinthians 15:35-50). Barristter07: We preach Christ crucified, buried and bodily resurrected. Barristter07: If something does not exist after death how then does it resurrect? Barristter07: The sinners go to a place of conscious torment separated away from God while the righteous go to God's heaven. Sinners to eternal death and the righteous to eternal life. Barristter07: That is what your Watchtower society would lead you to believe. Barristter07: Ask Jesus who said so when revealing a realm we knew nothing of before. Barristter07: Rather, the lake of fire with brimstone is not open for business yet. Barristter07: They are in a conscious existence in a place of torment, where they still have all their senses even sharper than they were before they died. |
Re: Does An Immortal Entity Needs Everlasting Life ? by DeOTR: 9:49pm On Jun 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka:What difference would it have made if the verse says their blood cries out of the ground like that of Abel? 1. Abel was slain by his brother just as these souls were slain for bearing testimonies of Christ. As far as this verse is concerned, the Altar under where these souls are crying out to God could most probably be earth. Isn't that where they sacrificed (killed) for the testimony they bear in the first place? If you look closely, you'll see that John said "the altar" as if he expects the reader to know already. He mentioned any heavenly altar previously or anything alludes to the fact that this altar is before the throne of God. Unless you can prove otherwise, these crying souls are not disembodied souls but, like the blood of Abel crying from the ground from where he was slain, they're also the blood of men crying for justice. The use of "the Altar" is not unexpected since these people lost their lives in sacrifice for their testimonies. Everything is pointing to the earth, not heaven. 2. A cry for justice, just same way the blood of Abel cried out to God. Can a blood literally cry? No. Can a dead soul/man literally cry? No. 3. They're resting/sleeping right? Can something that's resting even cry in the first place? It doesn't make sense taking it literally. These are people who have been killed for bearing the testimony of Jesus. They can't be avenged yet until the appointed time. God is aware of their labor and sufferings and He's planned to do justice at the appointed time until their fellow servants that should be killed be fulfilled. Chapter 7:9 talks about a great multitude standing before the throne clothed with white robes. Who are they and where are they from? Verse 14 says they're those that came out of the great tribulation. What happened in the great tribulation? Persecution of true believers. These are all those that died for the testimonies of Christ. These are real resurrected people and the verse specifically stated that they're before the throne of God. Job doesn't seem to agree with that!You're so funny Can't you see you're actually the one misquoting the Bible here? Verse 12 of that Job 14 says that man lies down and rises not till the heavens be no more? Please when again will the heaven be no more? Is it at the last days? So if man dies and remains in the dust till heaven be no more, how can you be suggesting a disembodied soul living again after death? The thirteenth verse is talking about hiding in the grave until God's wrath be past? When will God's wrath be past? The rest of the verse says "that thou would appoint me a set time, and remember me". You can see Job here envisaging an appointed time when God will remember His own. The verse 14 opens with a question that's expecting an affirmative answer. Earlier in verse 7, Job was talking about a tree that was cut down and how it would sprout again. "till my change come" in verse 14 is actually a reference to that verse and it's a pointer to a future of resurrection. The fifteenth verse talks about a call and an answer. You should have known who will make this call and those that will answer the call by now. You even said there was no knowledge of resurrection in the old testament until Jesus. [b]Have you ever read Daniel 12:2? Jesus was quoting from this verse verbatim in John 5:28. The book of Daniel says "them that sleep in the dust" while Jesus, in the book of John says "all that are in the grave". What other prove do you need that the dead are actually just where they were buried until the call? Do you wake/resurrect people who are not actually sleeping/dead? Of course death is a Disconnection/Separation NOT a termination/annihilation. That is why the word Disconnection/Separation can be used within the context of every form of death in the Scriptures and still make sense.Nobody is saying death means annihilation, otherwise we won't be talking about resurrection. The whole point of Christian faith is the hope of resurrection to everlasting life through Jesus Christ. How can anyone be preaching death as the end? Even Jesus, Daniel and Isaiah sees death as a form of sleep. Yes, the purpose of resurrection is to return man to his state at creation to die no more. How was man created? Formed from the dust and animated by God's breath. At death, he loses his breath and returns back to dust. As simple as that. So what will happen at resurrection? Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28 has the answer. Nothing complicated here. The spirit being you're mentioning, if translated to Greek simply means a breathing/living being. The Greek and Hebrew words translated as spirit in the Bible mostly means air, breath after all, so your idea of one invisible spirit roaming the universe at death is not even applicable. It doesn't dawn on you that the Brain is just the physical hardware on which our soul/spirit operates.Which one is hardware again?; D Going by your logic, even if the invisible soul is the software of the brain, how can you even explain that in a sensible way? At least, in real sense, we can still see and work with softwares. Man was created in the image of God with a bigger brain and a direct breath of life from God. This is not a mistake. That special design and the breath of life is what set us apart from other creatures. We are products of design not a declaration like, "let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind,... ". Except you can give a biblical prove where God gave man a separate soul that outlives the body at death, just before he gave us the breath of life, then your argument is defeated. The Scripture can not be broken you know? I actually find it a little amusing with you guys for the reason thatI'm not a JW. I believe in miracles, but we should be wary of the so-called miracles in these latter days. "even Satan is pretending to be an angel of light". We as Christians, should not be carried away by what we see (miracles) but strive to live by the Word, because the Bible makes us understand that those that received the mark of the beast are deceived into doing so, not forced as the mainstream teachings would have us believe. I don't wholly believe in all the JW doctrines, but unfortunately, most of their teachings are right? 1 Like |
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