LifestyleTonite:


Abraham was justified by works before men, not before God. Abraham did different works e.g sacrifice of Isaac, circumcision, building altar etc. None of those things justified him before God, only before men.

Romans 4
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

As seen above, Abraham wasn't justified by works before God but by faith which only God can see in someone's heart. His works only justified him before us men because that's how we get to know he had faith since we can't see his heart to know for sure.

But your funny self keeps holding on to James 2:14. Don't you get tired?

I have told you the Parables of Jesus especially that of the seed sower and the man who built his house upon the rock clearly tells you hearing is not enough...DOING is also essential.

Does that sound like hanging only on to James 2 v 14?

Or you also didn't see James 2 v 20-26 where Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works?


Clap for yourself...


You just added some Maggi to the scriptures. Where did James mention the works of Abraham justified him before men only?

OkCornel:



Lol...so meaning Jesus only wants us to hear the word...but the DOING aspect is not essential abi?

Absolute joke...

If the Apostles only heard the instructions of Jesus to preach the gospel to the ends of the Earth...but they did not do it... Just think about it...is that not disobedience?


Go and read what you typed abeg... This is shameful...

Thank God your description of faith also has the DOING (works) part...

There is a place for DOING and not just hearing.

Are you daft?

The thing we are required to do after hearing the word of God is to have faith which we have done. Every other thing are just works which are good but not needed for salvation, only for reward.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Stop being foolish.

OkCornel:


I have told you the Parables of Jesus especially that of the seed sower and the man who built his house upon the rock clearly tells you hearing is not enough...DOING is also essential.

Does that sound like hanging only on to James 2 v 14?

Or you also didn't see James 2 v 20-26 where Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works?


Clap for yourself...


You just added some Maggi

I guess you were blind or deliberately skipped my response to that post of yours. It's clear you saw it, that's why you haven't been bringing the questions back

OkCornel:


I have told you the Parables of Jesus especially that of the seed sower and the man who built his house upon the rock clearly tells you hearing is not enough...DOING is also essential.

Does that sound like hanging only on to James 2 v 14?

Or you also didn't see James 2 v 20-26 where Abraham and Rahab were justified by their works?


Clap for yourself...


You just added some Maggi to the scriptures. Where did James mention the works of Abraham justified him before men only?

Abraham was not justified by works before God, only before men.

Romans 4:2
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

Then before who, if not men?

Shame on you. Your talk of Abraham's works being part of his justification before God has been busted.

LifestyleTonite:


Are you daft?

The thing we are required to do after hearing the word of God is to have faith which we have done. Every other thing are just works which are good but not needed for salvation, only for reward.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Stop being foolish.

Jesus must be daft for emphasizing on the DOING aspect...and not just hearing in His parables...

Jesus must also be daft for clearly saying His friends are those who obeys (DOING) His words... Those are the people that abide in Him...


Go and read the parable of the vine slowly...and tell me only faith (which comes by hearing the word) will bring forth fruit...

LifestyleTonite:


Abraham was not justified by works before God, only before men.

Romans 4:2
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

Then before who, if not men?

Shame on you. Your talk of Abraham's works being part of his justification before God has been busted.

You are the one adding spices to the message of James...


Please mention where James said the works of Abraham justified him before men only...

Cc Jesusjnr

OkCornel:


Jesus must be daft for emphasizing on the DOING aspect...and not just hearing in His parables...

Jesus must also be daft for clearly saying His friends are those who obeys (DOING) His words... Those are the people that abide in Him...


Go and read the parable of the vine slowly...and tell me only faith (which comes by hearing the word) will bring forth fruit...

Jesus said to do his words but he never said that is what is needed for salvation. That's is why the verse below says even if you don't obey his words but you do only one thing which is to have faith in him, you are still seen as a righteous man before him. Shame on you.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Shame on you.

LifestyleTonite keeps on recycling Romans 4 v 2... Let's put side by side with James 2 v 21 and 22.


Romans 4 v 2;

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


James 2 v 21-22;

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?




Where did James mention the works of Abraham justified him before men only?

LifestyleTonite:


Jesus said to do his words but he never said that is what is needed for salvation. That's is why the verse below says even if you don't obey his words but you do only one thing which is to have faith in him, you are still seen as a righteous man before him. Shame on you.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Shame on you.

Then exactly why were the sheeps separated from the goats?


Why was the servant with one talent casted out into everlasting darkness?

Why are the barren branches casted into the fire...


If hearing alone is enough?

OkCornel:


You are the one adding spices to the message of James...


Please mention where James said the works of Abraham justified him before men only...

@bold

You have to understand the context of the chapter.

The book of James in chapter 2 is clearly talking about doing works to show that we have faith in God. That's why he insinuated a man can't say he has faiith when we can't see his works.

James 2:18
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

As seen above, the verse shows James saying he can show his faith by showing his works because his works justifies his faith to whoever wants to know whether he has faith or not. He went on to speak of how Abraham's faith was also shown or justified when he offered Isaac.

James 2:31
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

If Abraham had not shown his faith, would we have known he had faith? Him showing his faith was not to be justified before God but before men.

Romans 4:2
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

James even said something in Chapter 2 v 19;

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


And someone is saying "believing" is enough

OkCornel:



Then exactly why were the sheeps separated from the goats?


Why was the servant with one talent casted out into everlasting darkness?

Why are the barren branches casted into the fire...


If hearing alone is enough?

I've answered all these questions. Go and check your mentions and stop acting like you didn't see it.

Hebrews 10 v 23-26;

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,




One can surely lose his salvation solite3

OkCornel:
James even said something in Chapter 2 v 19;

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


And someone is saying "believing" is enough

How many of those demons a accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior? None.

Believe in Jesus means you believe that he will save you from perishing and give you eternal life. Muslims say they believe in Jesus but they only pay it lips service because they don't believe he is the one to save them from hell fire. That's why they are relying on their works, just like you.

But we the true believers believe in Jesus to save us, not our works. That's why our believe goes in line with the Bible verse below and many others.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

OkCornel:
Hebrews 10 v 23-26;

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,




One can surely lose his salvation solite.

Sorry dude, none of the verses says one can lose his salvation.

Also, verse 24 says works are for one another, not for salvation.

Revelation 22 v 14-15

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


Hearing His commandments is not enough. You must DO THEM. Doing is the works...

LifestyleTonite:


Sorry dude, none of the verses says one can lose his salvation.

Also, verse 24 says works are for one another, not for salvation.

What exactly does " there is no sacrifice for his sins" mean there?

OkCornel:
LifestyleTonite keeps on recycling Romans 4 v 2... Let's put side by side with James 2 v 21 and 22.


Romans 4 v 2;

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


James 2 v 21-22;

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Where did James mention the works of Abraham justified him before men only?

Mumu, you quoted the answer but still couldn't see it.

@bold

If Abraham's works didn't justify him before God, is it not clear it justifies him before us men who are reading about it?

Yeye guy

OkCornel:


What exactly does " there is no sacrifice for his sins" mean there?

It means such a person who receives the knowledge of the gospel but turns it down to continue his sinful ways won't have the chance to get saved again. He fully understood the gospel but turned it down.

This doesn't apply to the saved, otherwise it would mean one is doomed the moment he sins again, no more salvation for him. That's clearly wrong.

The message of Jesus to Church of Thyatira.

The very words of Jesus;

Revelation 2 v 18-26;

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:







But someone is telling us Faith with a sinful lifestyle can still guarantee Believers Heaven...


Yet this is Jesus having something against the Church of Thyatira concerning fornication and eating food offered to idols!

LifestyleTonite:


Mumu, you quoted the answer but still couldn't see it.

@bold

If Abraham's works didn't justify him before God, is it not clear it justifies him before us men who are reading about it?

Yeye guy

Nope, Abraham's work (obedience to God's instruction) justified him before God...


It's exactly the same thing concerning Job. That was why God could boast against Satan while talking about Job!


I am bringing the very words of Jesus right here...


You can see that even His message to the church of Thyatira shows He recognizes their WORKS & FAITH!

Revelation 2 v 19...

JESUS' message to the Church of Ephesus;

Revelation 2 v 1-7;

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.





But but some people are telling us Faith alone is sufficient... Whereas, this Jesus telling the Church of Ephesus He recognizes their works and labor of love...


Jesus also told them to repent AND DO THE FIRST WORKS! Lest He would remove their candle stick from it's place...

JESUS' message to the Church of Laodicea;

This one is very interesting...

Revelation 3 v 14-21

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy unclothedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

If Faith alone was sufficient, why did Jesus praise and criticize the 7 churches in line with their works?


What happens to a church (group of believers) that refuses to repent and amend its ways?

Again I ask, if work counts for nothing and justifies no one before God...why did Jesus assess (Praise and or criticize) each of the churches in line with their works?!


Read the message of Jesus to the Churches alongside the Parable of the Sower, the builders, the vine, the sheeps and the goats and see how everything aligns...

OkCornel:


You lie shamelessly. You said the Bible mentioned Abraham was not justified by works, whereas James clearly wrote this concerning Abraham.

James 2 v 21-22;

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?



Was James wrong to say Abraham was justified by works in verse 21?

satan is good at misconstruing the words of God. He said Jesus should jump down because Hod said he will give his charge charge to keep jesus from hurting Although Satan quotes the scripture accurately but he takes it out of context and puts it against other scriptures.
You okcornel are doing the same, quoting James to discredit other parts of the scriptures.
Accurate diving of the scriptures is what is needed to expose heresy and satanic manipulation.
What james said have been accurately divided inline what other scriptures but no you have non of it even when you are contradicting other parts of the bible you continue in your error.

even the old testament tells you Abraham was justified by faith.
James is not wrong but you okcornel that is forcing your heresy on James .

James said faith is known by itself work meaning it is the faith which produces works that saves paul said faith alone is what saves.
They may seem contradicting but they are not.
Paul tells us faith alone saves but James tells us the type of faith that is, the faith that has works.
Works do not in themselves save but points to the genuineness of faith.

LifestyleTonite:


It means such a person who receives the knowledge of the gospel but turns it down to continue his sinful ways won't have the chance to get saved again. He fully understood the gospel but turned it down.

This doesn't apply to the saved, otherwise it would mean one is doomed the moment he sins again, no more salvation for him. That's clearly wrong.

Read that verse clearly, it says SIN WILFULLY AFTER COMING TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

Not about rejecting the gospel.


Wilful sin ( not errors).

Never you use the sacrifice of Jesus to justify a sinful lifestyle with the mindset that you are saved. There is no sacrifice for such people.


Some who performed wonders in the name of Jesus where rejected because they were WORKERS OF INIQUITY. They knew the truth, manifested the gifts but still lived sinful lives...

solite3:
even the old testament tells you Abraham was justified by faith.
James is not wrong but you okcornel that is forcing your heresy on James .

James said Abraham was justified by his works (actions)...


How can you claim to have faith without doing what you are told to do?


Infact, we need to breakdown the meaning of faith and works here...


Faith is the conviction ( as Hebrews) puts it.

Works is the action resulting from such conviction.

If Abraham took no action despite being convicted, then of what use is such a faith?


Assurance/Conviction (Faith) without action(works) is trash...

OkCornel:


You are the one adding spices to the message of James...


Please mention where James said the works of Abraham justified him before men only...

Cc Jesusjnr

What amazes me is how to some it is the saying of Paul and not God's that determines what justified Abraham before God.

For this was what God Himself said justified Abraham before Him:

"...By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:16-18 (KJV)

So if God says works, and Jesus says works, and there are those who would yet chose to follow Paul's saying that it was not works that justified Abraham before God, it's well obvious who their Father and Master is, for it's not God or Jesus but Paul.

So let them not have works but only such faith in their possession before judgment day, so that when they stand before Jesus who said they needed works, they would say that it was Apostle Paul that told them that they didn't need works.

p.s. I have a strong feeling that such sayings in the book of James the brother of Jesus was a response to the sayings of Paul which appear to encourage faith without works, to show the error in such teachings.

jesusjnr:
What amazes me is how to some it is the saying of Paul and not God's that determines what justified Abraham before God.

For this was what God said justified Abraham before Him:

"...By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:16-18 (KJV)

So if God says works, and Jesus says works, and there are those who would yet chose to follow Paul's saying that it was not works that justified Abraham before God, it's well obvious who their Father and Master is, for it's not God or Jesus but Paul.

So let them not have works but only such faith in their possession before judgment day, so that when they stand before Jesus who said they needed works, they would say that it was Apostle Paul that told them that they didn't need works.

p.s. I have a strong feeling that such sayings in the book of James the brother of Jesus was a response to the sayings of Paul which appear to encourage faith without works, to show the error in such teachings.

Exactly my point, Conviction (Faith) and action (works) cannot be separated from one another.

Infact James made it clear that it was the works of Abraham that made his Faith complete...


James gave more insight on the matter of Faith. No wonder his teachings on Faith (written in AD 69) was written after the death of Paul around AD 66/67...

OkCornel:


Exactly my point, Conviction (Faith) and action (works) cannot be separated from one another.

Infact James made it clear that it was the works of Abraham that made his Faith complete...

Most def bro.

Faith without works is dead!

OkCornel:


James said Abraham was justified by his works (actions)...

yes but romans tells you not before God.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

How can you claim to have faith without doing what you are told to do?

not possible. You were told to believe in Jesus to be saved.

Infact, we need to breakdown the meaning of faith and works here...


Faith is the conviction ( as Hebrews) puts it.

Works is the action resulting from such conviction.

If Abraham took no action despite being convicted, then of what use is such a faith?


Assurance/Conviction (Faith) without action(works) is trash...

please quote the full scripture not your words.

When was Abraham justified before or after he sacrificed isaac? Please back it up with scriptures not mere opinion.
I m waiting

jesusjnr:
Most def bro.

Faith without works is dead!

jesurjnr do you believe the book of james is the word of God?