MuttleyLaff:
Wow, what a "left no stone unturned" explosion of resounding nuggets of information

linearity:


Agree, it is far safer to assume that, foreknowledge came before the predestination, moreso it is far easier to explain freewill and SIN from that viewpoint.

linearity:

However, looking at it the other way, that is predestination before foreknowledge (or predestination and foreknowledge happening at the same time and on the same single frame from God's perspective....i.e. like time, predestination and foreknowledge exists as a single point) will lead to the concept of pre-determination with no freewill.

linearity:

I think, am seeing it more from the later, i.e. the viewpoint of pre-determination. If you look at the later part of verse 31....<i>"If God be for us, who will be against us?"</i> It is a rhetorical question, whose answer has been pre-determined as a resounding 'NO'.....'regardless of any outcome, variables, freewill or SIN, etc."

linearity:

Please note that, when I say 'SIN' above, I don't mean the concept of one continuing in SIN perpetually and still believes that God's Grace will continue to abound, I meant that...'after all in all, at the end of the day, etc'..because of His pre-destinationation, SIN will be overcame by those he has chosen. This viewpoint also support the fact that, God still actively play a role that alter the course of life, events, etc everyday, and can do and undo things....the other viewpoint of foreknown, before predestination seem to suggest that He just seats back and watch with no active participation and allow our freewill to determine every and all things.

I know, this is a complex topic....it is like the chicken and the egg story.....which came first?...and whichever way you look at it, there seem to be some merits...but maybe understanding this fully from our limited human perspective is like; a 1-dimentional mind trying to describe the properties and beauty of a 4-dimentional object.

Blabbermouth:

From this, I believe you are saying that the future is like a dice (multiple possible outcomes) and man's freewill is what determines the result. You said "God knew it could pan out either way and he's prepared for whatever comes....." , that would mean God knows every possible outcome but he doesn't know the final outcome - If this is not what you mean then there is no room for freewill whatever.

Blabbermouth:


In this section, I believe you are claiming now that God knows the exact outcome and not just the multiple possible outcomes- this is what being omniscient ( and knowing the future) means - If so, then again there is no room for freewill.

It's been a while... I've been good.

shadeyinka:
I'm still trying to understand your simple English.
I'll holla you when I'm through. LOL

Shalom

shadeyinka:
True!

I agree with you here

I think it is easy to understand. The key is that we are not saved because we are perfect in our deeds. We are saved by grace through faith.

1Jn 2:1:
"My little children, I'm writing these things to you so that you might not sin. Yet if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father Jesus, the Messiah, one who is righteous."

What qualifies us eventually for salvation is our SONSHIP of God not our perfect life. Hence, when Satan brings his accusations, he may be correct but our advocate says: for these imperfections in their lives I died. I have paid their price of guilt therefore they are free to go!

This is like the episode that took place with Joshua the High Priest

Zech 3:1-5:
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said to Satan, The LORD rebuke you, O Satan; even the LORD that has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spoke to those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And to him he said, Behold, I have caused your iniquity to pass from you, and I will clothe you with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair turban on his head. So they set a fair turban on his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by."

Joshua wasn't pure but he had a relationship with God to be excused of his filth AND be Restored to cleanliness.

This is our take in God as explained in the text you presented.
I am saved, not because I am perfect but only because I have run to God for my salvation and deliverance. The blood of Jesus thus speaks for me and the price of my guilt paid. Hence, who (specifically refering to Satan) can accuse me who God has paid his fine.

@Bolded
For those who has imbibed Gods sacrifice, and have been converted into His sons, it is the blood of atonement that takes them into paradise NOT their works.

Eph 2:8-9:
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Secondly,
God does intervene in the affairs of men, howbeit not every time.
When this happens, we call it MIRACLE! A miracle occurs when God suspends the normal course of events

MuttleyLaff:
It means you covered and touch all angles. You did fanstatic and exceptional justice and/or service under, over and above what normally might be expected

MuttleyLaff:
We can see FOREKNOWLEDGE and DIVINATION with divination, meaning and being, the practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means, the attempt to gain insight into a situation by way of an occultic, standardised process or ritual. We also can see INFLUENCE, MIRACLE and FREEWILL get interplayed in the good plot twist of Balak employing the service of Balaam, the seer, to help him, put a curse on Israel the Nation aka the Israelites

The FOREKNOWLEDGE aspect, featured God (i.e. Numbers 22:9)

The DIVINATION aspect, featured the elders of Moab and Midian, who under instruction from Balak went to sought Balaam's service, i.e. Numbers 22:7-8.

The INFLUENCE aspect, featured God intervening in the affairs of men (i.e. Numbers 22: 9, 12-14 & 22) This direct and indirect influencing thing, God does, every time, as is done with His power or capacity, to have a positive effect on the character, development and especially the behaviour of someone, like as in this case here, with Balaam, who is, presented with an opportunity, to get to change his choice and/or behaviour, by his own volition, to meet and match with God's standard(s) and expectation(s) (i.e. Numbers 24:1)

The MIRACLE aspect(s), featured a talking donkey, as a result of God opening the donkey's mouth (i.e. Numbers 22:28 and 2 Peter 2:16) and also, featured Balaam seeing, as a result of God opening his eyes, the angel of God, standing in the way, with his sword drawn in his hand, ready to kill Balaam (i.e. Numbers 22:31)

The FREEWILL, final aspect, is Balaam almost literally singing to himself and doing a Timaya, performing the "This Life I Can't Kill Myself. Or I Can't Come And Die. Allow Me To Flex ooo ..." classic tune.

Balaam, upon seeing the Grim Reaper, wouldnt try that suicidal "yamayama" nonsense, even with Balaak, king of Moab, pressurizing him to curse the Israelites, (i.e. Numbers 22:7) but instead, he used FREEWILL wisely and lived to see another day. He could have kept on moving forward and have his head unceremoniously get separated from his body, but he decided to avoid an early death, premature death, or even, death before his time, by yielding to the influence of God

shadeyinka:
Yes, a complex plot of things. Just a minimal intervention by the Divine so as not to upset the balance of Freewill, Cause and Effect.

shadeyinka:
Even with a sneak preview into the future, the future can be changed, delayed or modified with wisdom.

shadeyinka:
It's amazing how even the little things we do affect greatly the future. If one married another person other than one's spouse, it is impossible for out offsprings to remain the same. Everything changes! The assassination of a single man Archduke Franz Ferdinand led to the WW1.

I hope my not taking Cornflakes for breakfast this morning will somehow lead to Nigeria choosing a Messiah President in 2023. LOL!

Shalom

MuttleyLaff:
"sneak preview into the future" by whom? Who and who, does "sneak preview into the future?"

MuttleyLaff:

Life, from the beginning, has alway been about, as you lay your bed, so you'll lie in it

shadeyinka:
From God!
An example
2 Kin 20:1:
"In those days was Hezekiah sick to death.
And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him,
Thus said the LORD, Set your house in order; for you shall die, and not live."

But Hezekiah prayed. His action saved his life and health.

This is also true within the constraints surrounding the person

shadeyinka:

Haven't I repeated this answer more than twice within this thread!?

Do you think it is fair if God sends a foetus to hell because God said that He knows (Foreknowledge) that the foetus will grow up to be a murderer and a serial rapist?
Even if Gods Foreknowledge was perfectly correct, there is no justice in punishing a man for a crime he hasn't commited.

In other words, the foetus choose hell for itself AFTER he was born and grew up to the age of accountability AND then chose to live his life devoid of God (even though he could have chosen otherwise)

Blabbermouth:

Not even once, you've not answered the question correctly.


Hmmmm.



BEFORE it was born, God already knows if the foetus will end up in hell or in heaven. You are saying the Foetus chose hell AFTER it was born, this is a weak attempt at using the forward button to push the foetus to a stage of consciousness and accountability.
I'm not talking about the Foetus choosing hell after it was born and grew up to accountability (you said this yourself) , I'm asking How the foetus chose hell for itself (since God already knew before it was born) BEFORE it was born and grew to accountability ...
HOW, HOW, HOW, HOW! DID AN UNCONSCIOUS FOETUS CHOSE HELL FOR ITSELF BEFORE IT WAS BORN?
With your answer to this, I will be able to fully grasp your answer to the question of the thread.

MuttleyLaff:
"¹In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill.
The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him and said,
“This is what the LORD says: ‘Put your house in order, for you are about to die; you will not recover.’ ”
²Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, saying,
³“Please, O LORD, remember how I have walked before You faithfully and with wholehearted devotion;
I have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
⁴Before Isaiah had left the middle courtyard, the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
⁵“Go back and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people that this is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says:
‘I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. I will surely heal you.
On the third day from now you will go up to the house of the LORD.
⁶I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria.
I will defend this city for My sake and for the sake of My servant David.’ "
- 2 Kings 20:1-6

You are prooftexting with that 2 Kings 20:1 because God already knew that Hezekiah will be remorseful, repent from a change of heart, just as well, as God knew Pharaoh will be unremorseful, won't repent, not even from having a changed and new heart

I was reading "The Secret Prayer: The Three-Step Formula for Attracting Miracles" by Dr. Joe Vitale, and something profound that he wrote about prayer being a way to activate and attract into our lives, whatever we are focusing on by requesting an intention and inviting God for inspiration.

I see Hezekiah, doing exactly that (i.e. He prayed. His action saved his life and health) but not Pharaoh (i.e. He didn't pray. His inaction saved not his life and health)

I see Saul, doing just that too (i.e. intention, invitation and inspiration), and so how he later on was by providence led to Samuel, who told him all that was in Saul's heart and after anointed him to be king of Israel.

Now shadeyinka, please give you answer in the same numbered format and style the two below questions are asked. Thank you
1/ "sneak preview into the future" by whom?
2/ Who and who, does "sneak preview into the future?"
3/ Is it befitting, an Omniscient Being to be do "sneak preview into the future"
4/ Does God have absolute knowledge, as in meaning, have absolute knowledge of everything and everybody all the time 24/7/365 days?
5/ When it comes to having advanced all encompassing knowledge, does God have His cake and eat it?

shadeyinka:

I don't know if you are feigning ignorance or pretending to be unintelligent.

I'll put it simply again:
1. The foetus CANNOT choose anything for itself before it has an opportunity to LIVE.
2. The future is NOT cast in stone. The future is changed by our present ACTIONS
3. Since God created TIME, God can "travel in time" and thus KNOW how the variable future has played out.

Your question was based on a wrong presmise that an unconscious foetus can choose and you want to force an impossible answer.

Your question is just like me asking you that
"How did a car choose for itself that it will be owned by a female driver"?
Your question may make sense only if I have told you that cars can choose!


Did anyone tell you that a foetus can choose?
Did anyone tell you that an unconscious person can choose?

Blabbermouth:

Ohhh... I now understand you.
Then I should ask, [b]Does God know the future of a foetus (this includes foreknowing where the foetus will end) before it was born?

shadeyinka:
Let me put the answer in a question form.

Let's assume you own a time machine and you can be present and see anything up to 20 years in the future.

Will you be able to describe the president of Nigeria come 2023 and even the one that will take over in 2028?
Will you be able to say if the new President in 2023 will have a baby girl (with his new wife), the name of the baby and if the baby will drown (but rescued in the nick of time) in the Aso villa swimming pool at the age of three?

Can it then be said that you know the future of the yet to be formed foetus of the yet to be president and his yet to be married wife?

MuttleyLaff:
I've liked your responses to my five questions because of your honesty, good effort and stickler to the format used in asking them, thanks, but I will return back to say the reasons why I constructed the questions the way they were asked and also further probe you.

Meanwhile please just simply answer Blabbermouth foetus question straight on, first and directly before asking your or any question. Thank you.

shadeyinka:
Thanks.
But I've just answered him (howbeit in a question form). A truthful answer to the questions results in objectiveness of perspectives. A direct answer will prolong needless positions hidden under a faulty bias

MuttleyLaff:
Blabbermouth's question, required a simple binary, concise answer of Yes or No, not the unnecessary layer of unsolicited questioning and trivia information, for now, that you're so bent off putting out

Just give him, a simple and brief Yes or No answer please

shadeyinka:
Okay!
But when he feels my response isn't direct enough.

MuttleyLaff:
You of course know I have a keen interest in this discussion and why I am following and liking posts without favouritism, prejudice or bias but based on the content's merit

shadeyinka:

Okay!
But when he feels my response isn't direct enough.

Squillaci:
I don't think God sees the future.
He can tell the future, because he can make that future happen and nothing can stop Him.

MuttleyLaff:
You have a myopic view of God. You are also putting limitations on God.

God, Himself unequivocally said He knows/sees the future

Squillaci:
He know what will happen because He can make it happen at that time without any hindrance.

MuttleyLaff:
God, let's human beings whilst they abide by the parameter of rules, determine their future and choices

Squillaci:
He lets humans by not interfering.
But He clearly can't see the future.

Squillaci:

He know what will happen because He can make it happen at that time without any hindrance.

Squillaci:

He lets humans by not interfering.
But He clearly can't see the future.

Blabbermouth:

Yes sir, it's not direct at all.

Blabbermouth:

Ohhh... I now understand you.
Then I should ask, Does God know the future of a foetus (this includes foreknowing where the foetus will end) before it was born?

shadeyinka:


My Answer:
God knows the future of the Foetus because God can see (in real time) his sets of choices and events surrounding him well before he was conceived.

Now, before your response, answer these questions. It will surely help your next question or objection.

Let's assume you own a time machine and you can be present and see anything up to 20 years in the future.

Will you be able to describe the president of Nigeria come 2023 and even the one that will take over in 2028?
Will you be able to say if the new President in 2023 will have a baby girl (with his new wife), the name of the baby and if the baby will drown (but rescued in the nick of time) in the Aso villa swimming pool at the age of three?

Can it then be said that you know the future of the yet to be formed foetus of the yet to be president and his yet to be married wife?