₦airaland Forum

olagunju2000:
Thanks to everyone. All your your argument are very robust and I really appreciate all your thoughts.

My real concern is that I only get about 2400W max instantaneously out of the total install capacity of 4500W. I wanted to know if something is wrong with the panels. I have learnt a lot today about what I need to check on the other elements. The last enquiry is that how am I sure that my panel is doing what it is supposed to be doing. I wanted a way to validate that the problem is not coming from the panel itself. So, I wanted to find out from you experts, if I can validate the panels by checking the Voc and Isc on a sunny afternoon and comparing to the ratings of the panel. Based on all your experiences, will I get a reading (using multimeter) close to the ratings of the panel if the panel is ok ? Or is there another way of finding out if the panels are ok?

Thanks...

Jamzig1:
Good day house, I have a question
What's the most efficient way to prevent the use of high energy consumption loads. For instance, There is a socket outlet which I don't want to supply more than a certain watt (at most to charge a laptop which is about 40-60W) and charge phones or to be used for devices not exceeding 80-100W instantaneously. Would a 1Amp AC Breaker work? What other options are viable? Thanks

pranil:
all depends on how the circuit is wired is the inverter and charge controller paralleled before connecting to battery or both are connected to battery

see video of my installation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ7uu3_dLAc
where you can clearly see the battery on the float with minimal current but PV charger( victron CC) still producing and supplying load
The DC system in the video is ipower charge controller/inverter also contributing 250 watts for the load along with Victron charge controller

As you can see both CC are connected to 2.5 KW each but they are contributing just enough power to supply load while keeping batteries floating with out cooking the battries

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Yes this is correct Boss. But you only have access to SG readings with flooded batteries and even then you go tire to dey check SG on a regular basis - all the hand flushing and equipment washing to rinse off the corrosive acid can become annoying

Again SG and voltage measurements are indicators that your state of charge is within a particular range. They cannot tell you the exact state of each cell e.g on my US battery L16 flooded bank I get temperature adjusted SG readings between 1.275 and 1.295 across all cells when my batteries are fully charged. Yet if I run say my 2hp AC for like 8 hours its the battery with one cell at 1.295 that collapses first

With all the charge in this world (my array can generate a max 75amps into a 360AH bank if I don't cap the output) I have not gotten the SGs to converge. In a moment of madness I even started siphoning electrolyte from the 1.295 cell into the weaker ones yet no joy

So I settled for simply clapping an individual charger on each battery on a regular basis and keeping the water topped up.

Flooded is good but as you would have seen from people's experiences on here with their Trojans and my own US Battery L16s, after a while things start to go south and they need ever more and more babysitting to keep them healthy.

As it stands now, I have given up on lead acid, our salvation now seems to be Lithium with the promise of negligible or zero sulfation/loss of capacity even at 80% depth of discharge.

makavele:
I do not like guesswork.
Please place an ammeter between charge controller and battery bank;
and let us know what you get,
Then place between battery bank and inverter and let us know what you get too . .
before you do this, please ensure the CC is supplying more than the c10 or c20 current
thanks

makavele:
Your analogy is seriously flawed because unlike a container, a battery has only 1 opening . .
the same opening for inward and outward current . . .
Current must flow to load first; and be replenished by solar array (when under load)
Or no current flows to load, and current is received by solar array (when idle and charging)
so when 30A flows to load, for example, and solar pumps in 40A back . . . current flowing into the "opening" is still 40A;
(which will kill a typical 100Ah or even 200Ah battery over time) and not 10A
Best bet is to increase battery bank
You garrit ?

Gentlemen The battery terminals work like a DC busbar unless there is a real busbar. All this current exchange happens only in the terminals and only excess current ( +ve) goes INSIDE the battery for chemistry to charge the battery or if the load is higher than battery excess current is generated by chemistry and delivered to the load in addition to CC current

As long as the CC is maintaining higher voltage than battery the entire current will go to the load .


Now you can see the reason for Hybrid inverters like ipower/zinnox/gennex where the current going to the battery is limited by the inverter but Current produced by the CC can be directly consumed by the load as the busbar is formed inside the inverter.
At one time i was running 400 AH bank ( max 40 amp charge setting) with 5 KW panels without any issues. Any excess load was automatically supplied by PV power

NiyiOmoIyunade:
I checked online and the Yohako MPPT CC appears to be rated at input VoC 96v and max current 80a - this is probably the reason why your installer used a 2 panels in series config for you.

The challenge is now that this controller is mismatched for your application as you are using a 48v nominal system. MPPT requires some 'voltage headroom' to operate properly e.g a 48v nominal system will charge batteries anywhere from 56v to 62v (allowing for desulfation voltages) - at the panel side you will need at least 90volts to give sufficient headroom for the Charge Controller to 'boost' current and realise MPPT benefits - with 24v nominal panels, you need a minimum of 3 panels in series to achieve a useable MPPT voltage range for a 48v nominal battery bank - unfortunately, you will fry the Yohako at this voltage level.

Its either you switch to a 24v inverter and keep the Yohako as is OR you set your panels as 3 in series and change to a different controller capable of at least 150vdc e.g Chinco EP Solar/Fangpusun or the venerable MorningStar or Midnite Solar, Magnum e.t.c

As it is now you have an MPPT CC but operating like or worse than a PWM because it is not suitable for your application

You still have to ensure your panels face either South or West or East (some folks on here do North but I have no idea how that works) in that order of preference, your panel mount tilt/angle is relatively flat, no shading on the panels, properly sized cables e.t.c to be sure you have captured all angles.

But clearly, it appears your issue is a poorly designed/mismatched system and you will need some tweaking to get it right.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
You do bring a unique perspective to equipment/cable safety using breakers.

The three pole breaker you mentioned - is it dual rated to handle both AC & DC currents? If it is please share the brand names and specs.

I only break my inverter battery connection (60/100A DC MCB, Inverter AC charging input (32A MCB), Inverter ouput (6A or 10A or 16A.... AC MCB) as typical loads dictate.

In solar applications, I break only the solar input - I stopped breaking the CC to battery connection after I lost my 60A morningstar MPPT CC to an unexpected breaker trip one fine sunny afternoon like that - as I heard the loud bang and rushed to the balcony, I saw magic smoke, fire and brimstone coming out of the CC - IMMEDIATELY I STARTED HAVING A NASTY HEADACHE AS I CONTEMPLATED THE REPLACEMENT COST OF A NEW MORNINGSTAR CC.

HeartforGod:
Hello Pranil, a question please,

With your multiple inverters, do you have a COMMON NEUTRAL output AC wiring for all the loads connected to them? or does each inverter have its separate live and neutral wiring for their loads?

foonshur:
@all... found this after searching further. https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2016/08/15/batteryprotect-new-instructional-videos/
but this has opened the door to a whole new question now... is it safe to install something like this between the battery and the inverter, where the supply will be cut off to the inverter while it is working??

NiyiOmoIyunade:
I understood that the OP wanted some sort of LVD (Low Voltage Disconnect) mechanism rather than just a battery monitor - for the Victron and/or Fangpusun BMV 702 - please how do you make it disconnect the load at a preset voltage? When I look at the wiring diagrams, I see the inverter negative cable hardwired across the shunt - since the shunt is essentially a metal conductor with known resistance, I can't see how any contactors or relay would interrupt the hardwired connection except you change the wiring setup or introduce extra equipment. All the LVD settings I see also indicate activating some sort of relay or contactor to disconnect the load but such a device is not bundled out of the box with the Victron or Fangpusun clone monitors.

foonshur:
thanks a lot... although i have seen that before in my search before coming here. i want something readily available here in nigeria

jazzman2:
Thanks Pranil for your explicit explanation. Basically, you charge to approx. 100% and all forms of charging will cease. You will then be running off your battery pack until a pre-determined SOC before the charger engages again.

There is no floating arrangement on your CC, hence your PV cannot supply load power when battery is fully charged.

.

jazzman2:
Nice setup. How do you regulate the charging of the lifepo4 unit from the solar CC and 500w grid-tie side of things? Same CANBUS?

jazzman2:
Nice setup. How do you regulate the charging of the lifepo4 unit from the solar CC and 500w grid-tie side of things? Same CANBUS?

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Oga Pranil.

I am a bit of a noob when it comes to Lithium batteries having never installed them yet commercially - please educate us more on why you chose the BYD Pro offering vs. other options.

Did it come bundled with a BMS or you had to purchase BMS separately? Are you charging through the BMS or external charging source? How did you set the low voltage disconnect and charge voltage limits - I have heard of some people who use the standard charge controllers for charging Lithium batteries and set their target absorb voltage with an absorb time of 1 minute .

Do you have extra safety measures/redundancies built in in case of BMS or other failure?

Basically, please give the house the full purchase decision and install and configuration low down with reasons why you went with one approach vs. another so we can all learn.

We appreciate your time.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Oga Pranil - I hail o.

You have taken your RE journey to some impressive heights. I am truly in awe of what you have accomplished.

But on a lighter note in your absence, your house will need a thick user manual to navigate through all the gadgets and technology you have deployed o

I am truly inspired to see how you spare no expense to try out your ideas and share the knowledge freely on here.

Really really great one Sir.

Barezzi:
Very enviable setup Pranil. When I grow up, I want to be like you

How much did it set you back?
Also, how easily can it be integrated with Axpert inverters?

chris81964:
Loving your new batteries and Inverter. We are bringing in some Victron Energy and Growatt Lithium batteries. We will be installing them very soon. We had the option of the BYD, but the form factor did not appeal to the customer. We hope to do a LG next year as well.
Keep flying the flag. The ability to fast charge those batteries appeal to me more than anything else.

jazzman2:
Hello Pranil, which lifepo4 battery system did u finally purchase and have u commissioned it yet?

Saipro:
Summary: if your CC allows for up to 100V VoC, I recommend running your panels in strings of two. Let's see if it makes a difference. But save that for a last resort fix. For now, trouble your warranty guys. If possible, let them do the workarounds with you. They should come with their own fix-it crew to prove whatever they need to.

Obimind1:
Epever 60 amp cc Itracer.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
I know KieKie for super speedy sales and delivery across Nigeria of any inverter or solar or related equipment from premium to alaba grade. His contacts and network in the RE world are very extensive and there is hardly any equipment you may want which he cannot deliver to your doorstep within a day or two at the most provided you have shown committment by making transfer to his account first.

He is a supplier par excellence and his preferred modus operandi is for client to quickly make up their minds what they want and show committment via transfer to his account at which point he will surprise you with his speed of delivery.

Based on multiple interactions, I have never known him to abscond with my money nor be in fear that he will not show up with the product as promised - where warranty issues arise his apparent business model is to connect client & product source/repairer to work out the issues with him providing guidance and support remotely - in my opinion, this is an area to improve on because a client may feel abandoned with this approach but if you set your expectations right from the onset all should be ok.

I have also helped him procure and supply a few items from abroad and he is as quick to make transfers to me and follow up for delivery as promised as he is quick to expect alert in his account when I'm the one buying

With fairly used equipment it can be a gamble at times which is why they are usually 'sold as is' and at a discounted price and it may not be realistic for client to expect repairs/restitution at the supplier's expense except this was clearly agreed upfront - again clear communication and relationship is important because sometimes the manner in which one says YES or NO or KEEPS QUIET may go a long way to resolve or worsen the situation when issues arise with a client

For pricing and all, it is usually possible to negotiate and get a better deal although he may appear strict or impatient at times as a busy man always on the road.

All in all a good & dependable supplier - our last transaction was 8 units of USBattery L16s bought in November 2016 and they are still firing strong till date with their deployment in a tough service environment - I expect them to be in service for another 3 years at least.

Kudos KieKie and may you continue to grow and improve!!!

Saipro:
Trust Pranil for his fact-finding missions. As always, you dig deep for relevant info and share unabashedly. Personally, I love you.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Oga Pranil, verily, verily, I say unto you, all Controllers are not created equal - you can safely oversize the Morningstar multiple times over the rated PV wattage - although anything over 200% overrating, I would struggle to see the benefit and call it inefficient design.

For the EP Solar E-Tracer series, the manual states the Maximum PV Array Size = LBatt * VmP where LBatt is the maximum battery charging current and VmP is the PV maximum power point voltage. For the 60a EP Solar eTracer used in a 48v nominal battery setup with the common MPPT 3 x 3 config (3 pieces 24v nominal panels in series), that would yield LBatt 60amps * VmP 115volts = 6,900w as the maximum PV array to use (I think the manual specs 6,300w sef) - because there is some play around what the VmP may be for different panels, to be safe I would stop around 6,000W PV array size .

I have no knowledge whatsoever of Midnite because I don't like it and have never used it - a pet beef you might say I will let the users and pros tell us what the maximum safe PV over size is if any.

Between, how do you paste pictures so that they stay in the body of the text? I have tried the [img] [/img] tags but only succeeded once - I want to paste an excerpt from the EP Solar manual just like you did.

JUO:
oversizing will not fry the cc, so you are free to add more 500w and you stand to get more, extend battery life, hit 50a before 10am. Believe me, you will never see 60a even at peak, that is one of the things I don't like about solar. But you can get 1800w if you modify the cc

Jamzig1:
That being said.. how about having an Hybrid distribution where both AC and DC are being used... DC to power low wattage and critical loads like LED lights, DC fans and Charging outlets.. CCTV and alarm sensor too which requires constant supply.. then leave the other heavy loads to the AC. Doing this would make you switch on the Inverter only when you need to power these heavy loads. Remember Inverters have self consumption energy which is quite a loss when calculated around the clock.

Jamzig1:
Nice...
Of recent I've been wondering, why can't we have a residential/commercial distribution based on DC only.
These days we now have devices which run internally on DC.. LED Bulbs, Fans like this one you posted, USB charging outlets and even Laptop Adapters with Cigarette lighter plugs(12VDC).
These are low power consuming devices.. There are even DC refrigerators, DC Pressing Irons etc.
Using devices directly on DC reduces the conversion losses from converting from the DC generated by the PV and stored in Batteries to AC (By the Inverter) and then converting back to DC (using Rectifiers) to power our already DC consuming devices...