₦airaland Forum

Kobojunkie:
Let me try to use layman’s economics to respond to this portion of your post.
SCENARIO A: Obasanjo had NOT STOLEN that money; the money had been INVESTED by 6000 members of the community instead into Obasanjo’s farms. Then Obasanjo farms went ahead and hired 6000 members of the same community to work on the farm.
SCENARIO B: Obansanjo STOLE money that belonged to 6000 members of the community. Then Obasanjo farms went ahead and hired 6000 members of the same community to work for him.

Do you think the scenario A is same as scenario B in the sense that 6000 jobs were created in both cases?

Scenario A is obviously different from scenario B. He did not steal in scenario A, but he stole in scenario B? It is the same that 6,000 jobs were created in both cases, but in scenario B he should still be prosecuted because he created jobs out of stolen funds. But also consider in scenario B, he could have stole the money that belonged to 6,000 members of the community and hired members of another community, which would make the community in which he stole from worse off, but either way he should be locked up for stealing in scenario B, even if he hired 6,000 members of the community.

@ Kobokunje
Hhhmmm. . .  I can’t understand that because you say so?? Lol
You do realize you are still doing the same thing, comparing crimes in a way that the law would not ? If a man kills another man he is a criminal in much the same way that a man who kills a million men is.
Since We are both agree that they are both crimes even though the severity of the crime differs, the difference is that the crime with the greater severity usually has more dire consequences and receives a harsher sentence  more than the less severe crime. For example, even if both acts may be criminal acts, a person who kills one person has hurt one person and one family and may get 25-life, while a person who kills 20 people has hurt 20 people and 20 families and may get the death penalty or concurrent life sentences. Do you see a difference?

he law recognizes first and foremost all crimes are crimes. However, when it comes to punishing crime, the law CLASSIFIES crime, IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER.  Level of Severity given a crime DOES NOT TAKE AWAY from the fact that a crime was committed.
Yet again you claim I cannot get it just because you say so?? Lol . . . . continue thinking that if it makes you feel you are making some wonderful point here. . . . lol

We both agree that the law recognizes all crimes are crimes, but when it comes to punishing a criminal, the law does classify crime in determining the severity of punishment. While both murder and manslaughter are homicides, when it comes to punishment, murder usually receives a harsher sentence. Also, there are other mitigating factors that could reduce the severity of the punishment. The relevance here is that even though Obasanjo committed a crime, assuming he kept the money in Nigeria and invested it in Nigeria, he should get a lighter sentence than a looter who ships the money and invest it overseas. You see a difference?

WOW!!!!   But then again, you are not the first to offer such ludicrous excuse.
Again, bringing up issues that concern OTHER COUNTRIES when the subject is on Nigeria, and Crime in NIGERIA is distasteful, and meaningless for. We are discussing Nigeria and crimes committed in Nigeria. Bringing up that crimes are also committed in other countries makes no meaning here. Trying to use examples as the one you have above is of no relevance to this topic or discussion.

Sometimes using examples from advanced countries may help to explain or clarify a concept. It is called analogy.


Please stop offering ridiculous reasoning stitched together out of desperation as logical argument.

Obasanjo has NEVER come forward to state that ANY COURT OF LAW convicted him of the crimes he committed and that his PUNISHMENT for his CRIMES is for him to invest that money in Nigeria as he claims to have. Please STOP LEAPING all over the place to justify your congratulating the man for stealing and then using that money to hire Nigerians as if we were slaves.

How can you IMAGINE this act has anything to do with punishment for crime? How can anyone justify this man’s BOLD act to steal from the people and then turn around to claim the people should worship him for being a better thief since he invested the money in the same Nigeria by hiring the very Nigerians he stole from, to work to enrich his coffers?? What COURT OF LAW deemed this his punishment and for what CRIME? Aarrrrrcggghhh!!! Please stop confusing Fantasy with reality.

Who said Obasanjo came forward and said he was convicted and "that his punishment for his crimes is for him to invest that money in Nigeria as he claims to have"

Even if they are both crimes, I said that the consequence to a local economy when politician loots and invests in the local economy  is different from when a politician loots and does not invest in the local economy. The difference is 6,000 more jobs. Call it slave labor or not. And because  he supposedly created 6,000 more jobs does not mean his looting is not criminal, nor does it mean that the 6,000 jobs he created is a justification for his looting, nor that we should keep quiet and not criticize him because he created 6,000 more jobs, nor that people should worship him. The fact of consequence is that 6,000 more jobs have been created, so where are you getting from me that i said we should worship him, that he did not use stolen money to hire people. So when do you transform what I say--asserting a factual statement about 6,000 jobs that have been created, slave labor or not, which could benefit the impoverished who may need it, into worshiping him for being a better thief. Lord have mercy!

the viper:
@bidemi, what are u still doing on this thread? i've been gone for 2 days now and you are still here teaching these morons to stop clapping for evil. we have an adage in the eastern part of nigeria which says that an evil bird farted and asked his kins to clap for him,his pple cried tufiakwa that we can never clap for an abomination. you see, that adage is now in the past as is evident from the type of comments that nigerians are posting here. trying to hail and justify the ape's creation of 6000 jobs after a hellish 8yrs in office. poverty and hard times have taken away our reasonings and consciencs and it is very painful. i had to leave the thread when some1 suggested that atleast he tried,lets MANAGE IT. that simply did it for me and then others came aboard to rationalise beween what they termed lesser evil which is keeping the loots in the country and bigger evil which is keeping it abroad. so tell me,with this kinda mentality,how do we develop as a country. i weep for my country.

You are a fool, a bastard, and a big slowpoke. You should die being ignorant. You resort to personal attacks when you have nothing to say. I am out, that is why I hate to discuss with some Nigerians.

Kobokunje:

When did a say a suicide bomber is not a killer? I said that there are both killers, but someone who kills one person is different from someone who kills a million, in terms of egregiousness of the crime. You can't understand that.

And when did I say that the law does not consider all crimes to be crimes?
Obviously the law recognizes that even within crimes, the severity of one crime could vary from another crime, and that is what you cannot get.

I brought corruption not being a Nigerian thing is that you don't seem to understand that weighing the severity of each corrupt act is not a justification for that corrupt act, and that it is being done because in advanced countries sentencing for crimes are prescribed depending on the severity of the consequence of that crime and aim to deter potential criminals. In case you don't understand, for example, someone who rapes and kills a child may be punished more than someone who rapes and kills an adult, even though they are both killers and rapists.


I never said looters are not criminals, and that they should not be punished so as not to encourage crime. I said they should be punished. You don't seem to understand stuff. The point I was driving at was the consequences of the varying ways in which it is carried out, and I paralleled it with other countries to show that even if looters invested looted funds in a manner in which it is done in foreign countries--investing it locally, that Nigeria would not be as terrible as it is. That by no means justifies looting or says that it is not a crime.

I don't even think you know what a straw argument is, so I won't go there.

Rells 2
Please tell me in any of my statements how I have condoned corruption or justified looting. I am not saying that creating 6,000 jobs justifies his looting. I have said that that the only way to deter looters is to prosecute them.  If I were to confront Obasanjo or speak at any event, I would say even though you created 6,000 slave labor jobs from money you stole, money which is not your own, it will at least provide jobs for some impoverished people; however, Mr. Obasanjo you are still a thief and a criminal, and I hope you pay for your crime. I am not too emotional as to disagree about the possible benefits of the 6,000 jobs to those people who may need it, even though it is slave labor. I am a pragmatist and a realist, and that is where we are different. Hypothetically, if Obasanjo uses part of that $16b to build all the roads in Nigeria, I would still call him a criminal and a thief, that he should rot in jail, but I would not deny the benefits of those newly constructed roads to the country just because it was constructed with stolen funds. Again, I am pragmatist, I don't allow emotion to cloud my judgment. We just think differently.

Kobojunkie:
Kudos must be given to him for allowing the aged people in the restaurant leave/live with the nightmares and the guilt that they did not sit there and die rather than watch their grandchildren and greatgrands die in their place?  

Dude, may I suggest therapy of some sort cause what you have above is some seriously WHACKED reasoning.



If there were suicide bombers like the one, the world would be a better place?? So it is all now about the people you kill? If you kill youngings and leave the old, you are better? Since when did the world develop this ranking for suicide bombers?? See me see wahala oo!!! What kind of simple logic and reality is this??

Why do you take half of my statement and turn it around. Can't you understand. It was a comparison, in case you don't know. Geez!! na waa for some people.

You guys should put your emotion aside and reason. The hypo was thrown out comparing two suicide bombers, and the comparison was between the two types of suicide bombers, that the world would be better if suicide bombers who killed a few exists than suicide bombers who killed all. You said since when did the world develop this ranking for suicide bombers? Well, you won't know because you are not in a field of law, and you apparently are not apt to get it. For your info, there is a ranking for varying degrees of crime; for example, in the U.S. you have first degree, second degree, third degree, then manslaughter, and so on, of course depending on the varying degrees of maliciousness. There is a difference between someone who kills one hundred or thousands  or millions of people, i.e., Hitler and warlords who commit genocide, and some heffer who shoots and kills one person. If you guys cannot get that, then I can't discuss with you, for you guys do not want to reason.

I never justified corruption with economics; what I said was that corruption is wrong and should not be tolerated, but that, comparatively, a looter who stores and invests money at home is better than a looter who stores and invests the looted funds overseas. If you can't get that, then I can't help you guys.

You guys act as though corruption exists only in Nigeria. There is corruption on every part of the globe, but the only difference in corruption in Nigeria is that (1) the corrupt folks in Nigeria when caught are not being prosecuted; (2) the corrupt folks in Nigeria usually store the looted funds in off-shore accounts, thereby benefiting a foreign land; (3) the corrupt folks in Nigeria usually invest the money overseas; (4) and the corrupt folks in Nigeria loot an excessive amount of funds. Unfortunately, Nigeria suffers from all four problems, but Nigeria would a whole lot better than it is if it at least suffered from only the first problem, but, hopefully, we should try and eliminate all four problems. If you don't get that, then you cannot digest a complex analysis to a problem, and I just can't help you guys. Venezuela, Saudi-Arabia, Dubai, Cuba, Jamaica, among many other countries, are all corrupt, but at least they at least have more infrastructure than Nigeria because the money is used to develop their country instead of a foreign land. As a matter of fact, I was shocked to hear about how some of our politicians were engaging in property development in Dubai and Europe.

I am done with you guys. I need to discuss with folks who can engage in complex analysis, focusing on the issues.

PurestBoy:
and start what conversation

How are you doing? what's your name? where are you heading? wetin dey happen? Do I need to teach how to start a conversation?

Well, just walk up to her and start a conversation. If she is responsive, carry on with the convo; if she is not being responsive, respectfully end the convo and move on. Either way, what have you lost? Nothing. What have you gained? Confidence, and a clear mind knowing that you at least tried. In sum, you have absolutely nothing loose by approaching her.

A suicide bomber enters a restaurant filled with people. But before blowing up everybody he asks the old people in the restaurant to leave then subsequently blows up himself and everyboldy else left in the restaurant. Kudos must be given to him for allowing the aged people in the restaurant leave/live, it shows he has respect. If there were more suicide bombers like that in the world, it will definitetly be a better place. sameway, if there were more looters like obj then Nigeria would be a better place. Grin

Using economics to justify corruption. I just dont get it

@ Bidemi12
You know what, if there were suicide bombers like the ones who spared the older people, the world will be a better place than if there exists only suicide bombers who killed every one and spared no one, and of course the world will be a much better place if there were no suicide bombers at all. After all, some lives were still spared, and the lesser of two evils is better than the greater of the two evils, but of course we wish for no evil at all. Simple logic and reality, absent judgment clouded by emotion.

What I have noticed on this thread is that many people, for whatever reason—maybe out of desperation to see good, whether it be from a thief, are overly exhilarated by the news of the creation of 6,000 jobs to the extent that they are willing to ignore and sanitize Obasanjo’s egregious conduct—stealing at least $16b from the national treasury; other people, on the other hand, probably because of Nigeria’s history of atrocious and glaring corruption, are understandably hurt and emotional-- to the point that this emotion has clouded their ability to digest logic and  have thus created a blanket rule that will offend even the most simplest, well reasoned comparative economic analysis. I felt the following questions will, hopefully, reconcile some of these conflicting views.
Q: Whether looting should be condoned under any circumstances?

A: No. Any subsequent acts by the looter should neither condone nor sanitize the prior conduct of looting.
Q: Whether investing any portion of the looted funds in the local economy either legitimizes or legalizes the looted funds?
A: Investing any portion of the looted funds should neither legitimize nor legalize the prior conduct of looting.
Q: Whether the percentage of looted funds that was invested into the economy should be should be employed in determining if the looter should be applauded for his?
A: No. A looter can be commended relative to percentage of funds he invested into the local economy, but that same looter should be berated for stealing in the same breath.
Q: Whether keeping the looted funds in a local account is better than keeping the looted funds in an overseas account?
A: under comparative economic analysis, it makes more sense to have looted funds kept locally rather than in an overseas account.

Q: Whether creating jobs with a portion of the looted funds is better than not creating any jobs at all?
A: Under comparative economic analysis, creating 6,000 jobs—even with looted funds—is better than not creating any jobs at all. The impoverished who have been provided with an opportunity to earn an income will appreciate that job.


Q: Whether former officers who looted funds and who either invested a portion of those of funds in the local economy or stored the funds in a local bank should be commended or exempted from prosecution?
A: It is practically conceivable to commend someone for creating the jobs while berating that same person for stealing money. It is synonymous to a criminal who kidnaps a little girl with the intent to rape and kill her but has a change of heart and returns the victim unharmed, and Courts usually reward them by giving them a lessened sentence. The alleged kidnapper can be commended for returning the girl but that by no means exculpates the alleged kidnapper from his wrongdoing. Obasanjo can be commended for creating 6,000 jobs and at the same time berated for stealing money, and he should also be prosecuted. Again, under comparative economic analysis, it is better to create 6,000 jobs in your own country rather than investing that money overseas, like some Nigerian thieves who are using stolen funds to construct skyscrapers in Dubai.

One day, surely one day, bushmeat go catch the hunter.

Kobokunje, You are funny. I feel you, sha. It is annoying that they can steal our money and spend it in our own backyard without fear of prosecution. IBB did it and built a mansion in Minna; Obasanjo is doing it; and I am sure his excellency Allahaji Yar Adua will follow the footsteps of his predecessors and do the same thing. I don't know when it will end.

I don't care about the job creation stuff. My own concern is where is he keeping all the money he stole. You guys are missing the point. I am not saying it is OK to steal, but these thieves are not being prosecuted, anyway; so until we start prosecuting them, it is still better that they keep the money at home. Abacha, if i remember, took all the money to Swiss banks and only a marginal portion of those funds were recovered. People steal all over the world, but the difference is that they don't bring their ill-gotten wealth to Africa, but African thieves always export theirs to Europe, where the money is accrues interest and is utilized in developing the economy of a foreign land.  If on the other hand the money is kept at home, local banks can at least invest the money. Let's stop being emotional and analyze this thing pragmatically and economically; it is still better to keep stolen money at home than to ship it abroad.

Beaf:
Has Obj told anybody that the $16 billion is in a hole he dug at his Ota farm? Everybody is going "o he did well to steal and keep the money here". Who told you?

Anyways, a thief is a thief is thief.

Well, I am assuming the money is in Nigeria. If the money is overseas then that is a different issue. I am not saying he is not a thief, and I hope they prosecute him (which I doubt). I really don't care if he invested in Nigeria or not; my main problem is where he is keeping the $16b.

bidemi12:
People just dont get it. IT MUST NOT BE RATIONALIZED God!!!!!!

I feel you Bidemi, but peoples' rationale is that they are siding with the lesser of two evils. The main issue is that reinvesting stolen money locally should neither legitimize nor legalize looting and should, therefore, not preclude him from being prosecuted. Insofar that he is not being prosecuted, it is still better that he keep the money at home, where it is still within reach, so in the event that he dies, the money can be easily traced back and returned to the government. Foreign bank managers usually take over the looted funds if the account holder dies.

While I do not condone stealing and looting of the national treasury, as in this case where Obasanjo has clearly funneled into his personal account the supposed $16b dollars that was earmarked for developing the power sector, with respect to his predecessors, I have to give Obasanjo some credit for at least investing the stolen funds into the local economy as opposed to stashing the funds in a foreign account. Although stealing is still wrong and should not be condoned, and I would rather have that our leaders not loot the treasury, reinvesting stolen funds in the local economy, on any given day, is still better than exporting those funds to Swiss accounts, at least in my own judgment.

The Blessed,
First, could you please use the same font (color and size) that everyone is using? Your current font is annoyingly distracting and does not add to your substantive arguments. Why don't you get this simple analysis. While private investors with expertise in airport management would be using their resources for the proposed airport, it by no means affect any other govt. initiatives such as fair housing, among others; and your proposition about using the money to construct affordable housing is irrational because you cannot commandeer private investors on how to spend their money. Also it is not a feasible alternative to have govt-run housing-- private developers would do a better job. In prior years, govt. run housing such as the low-cost housing estates constructed during the Jakande regime failed woefully for obvious reasons: they were aesthetically incapacitated, terribly maintained, and circumstances surrounding those low cost buildings help to breed crime.

Theblessed:
The same applies to Lagos state governor too.  With his own Revenue Allocation he can modernise the one that is there right now or, create a new International Airport alongside Murtala Muhammed, instead of syphoning some of these revenues in his several back pockets whilst waiting for the same Fed Govt to do it, when other states had none. That way, Fed Govt Resources would be equally and rightly distributed among states and thus, we can appropriately answer 'One Nigeria' for real.

If the same applies to Lagos, why are you concerned about Lagos's airport project? Why don't you focus on Imo? What is all these jealousy with Lagos? And who says he intends on using Fed. Govt. resources? You and I know that you cannot depend on the federal government to realize the completion of any project. Fashola brokered a concession agreement to fund the project, which parallels the agreement that was used to construct the new local airport. Also if Gov. Fashola was siphoning all the money as you proclaim, he won't have had sufficient resources to effectuate all the projects he has done thus far. Imo state is its own sovereign and can embark on its own prerogatives if it chooses to.

OvieE:
There is no need to build another airport. People hardly visit Nigeria except Nigerians that live in abroad. Nigeria has close to 170 million and Lagos airport, it hardly have 4 million a year. What is it the point of new airport when foreign plane hardly come to Nigeria or they come and they do not stay more than 3 or 4 hours and just one plane from other country is pathetic. Use that money to develop a better living for those that live the country. New airport will not give food to common man, children and woman on the street food.

From the way you sound you haven't been to Nigeria in a while. I don't know what you are talking about when you say people hardly visit Nigerians except Nigerians. Among other people, a lot of Chinese, Lebanese, Americans, foreign expatriates visit Nigeria. And even if it is only Nigerians who visit Nigeria, isn't whole essence of development is to attract non-traditional visitors to your country. You have to try to make a change. Murtala Muhammed Airport is way below international standard and is archaic. If they don't develop the country, you will complain; now that they want to build a new airport you are still complaining. Airport, like they say, is the gateway to your country.

Theblessed:
Of course, as big as Nigeria is there should be international Airport in most states. Obviously, there should be one each in Imo, Abia and Ibadan at least.  However, there should not be another one in Lagos, period.  Lagos, has benefited alot over more than a Century still looks WOWO and undeveloped, it's time for other AREAS as everything in Nigeria is not centred in LAGOS only.

Who says you can't build another international airport in Lagos while also building an airport in Imo? Imo state governor can use his state allocation or raise revenue for the project instead of embezzling all the money.

VI and Ikoyi city, not Lagos. A city within a city, VI and Ikoyi is the place I will like to live, there you can find all the chicks, parties, owanbe folks, and freaks.

SE for loose if to say dem play Taye Taiwo who thinks of amala and ewedu after 70 mins

Ope fun Oluwa.

2Legit. What are you smoking?

But on the real, the Mozambican goalie stopped a lot of goals.

Nsofor Obinna. Where the hell is Obasi Ogbuke Chinedu

goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal

fans are booing the super eagles. AAhhh  UHHH against the SE

look at that wasted opportunity, Osaze has done all that he can do.

Mozambican  goalie try sha

mahal:
SE shouldn't score now, they should score at the last minute of extra time so that the mozambiquans wont have time to level up.

You are right, because they seem to allow their opponents to equalize within a minute.

Martins, Martins

the really sad part is that if the SE finally get a goal they will allow the other team to score within a minute. Bloody fools