₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
When you are ready to learn i'm here to TEACH you i've quoted (not just citing) two verses that clearly states God doesn't know everything according to His own words so all you need to do is ask questions not just angrily throwing insults up and down.
That won't help your ministry.

Meanwhile i've proved to you that man has freewill that's the reason God said He will punish offenders which can't make any sense if those in question do not have freewill to choose between right and wrong!🙂

Yet this is someone who believes that there's the elect. On what basis of what they have done are they the elect?
Point is, God ALREADY knows if you’ll choose right or wrong and it is part of hid plan. That's the only way things will unfold exactly according to his Plan and can't deviate from it. Or don't you believe that things must unfold according to God's plan?
You are sounding more and more like an atheist!

MaxInDHouse:
You people just believe in presumption instead of verifying what God said about Himself now you think it's God's fault when Adam disobeyed.
Ọmọ there is freewill that's the reason why God has to verify the report He heard about Sodom and Gomorrah {Genesis 18:20-21} and wait until Abraham proved his faithfulness! Genesis 22:12

What amazes me about people like you is that you'll take one innocuous passage in the Bible and ignore the entire rest of the Bible starring at you.
You belive all the apocalyptic prophesies in Revelation and believe everything will happen exactly as planned. Can't you use your puny brain to see that everything is interconnected and that just one person using his free will can make things not go according to God's plan??

Dtruthspeaker:
.

Our man has forgotten how to make his posts readable because he KNOWS he has lost the argument!😅
Do you know AI drives cars through ANY kind of complex traffic and has far fewer accidents than humans, and keeps getting better everyday till there'd be zero accidents? My friend AI has what you describe as "freewill", even better!

God is not in the business of predicting. He KNOWS what will happen not what may happen.
Even if you repent to avoid an outcome, he knew in advance you'd repent.

So you LOST the argument. Henceforth you won't go around saying man has freewill (from human perspective) unless you're ready to say that AI also has freewill.
Also, henceforth you know God knows EVERYTHING and that things are unfolding according to his plan and can't deviate from it.

Cheerios!

MaxInDHouse:
Obviously you don't know what next to say after reading what God said about Himself.
So if you don't believe God's own utterances i'm sorry there's no way i can help you!🙂

So it is settled, you believe in a limited God, NOT in the true all-knowing God that knows your thoughts before you think them, and knows a child will be born in a manger thousands of years before it happens!
Doesn't that make you an atheist of sorts?

Dtruthspeaker:
No where did I say anything about reason for going out.

Secondly, a.i is software, like Microsoft word, so it cannot go into the rain or anything on its own



Still Off Point! Besides your atheists brother has already drawn the connection and distinction between predestination and freewill

There are some things which are beyond your control. That is your destiny. Then there are things where you have a choice. That is free-will. If it’s raining outside, it’s your destiny as you have no control over the weather. However, to be wet or remain dry is your free-will.

Then who said what you wrote in the screenshot below?
Whether you go out in the rain or not is entirely dependent on the type of brain you were given and your past experiences with rain (some of which you may no longer even consciously remember - example, there could be a childhood trauma you had long since forgotten).
Same with AI, whether it decides to go out in the rain is dependent on the type of "brain" it was given and it's past experiences with rain!

But why can't people like you just tell TRUTH?! Tell me how there is freewill when someone can fortell 100's of years in advance that a baby will be born in a manger? Any of the people involved in the intervening years can nullify the prophecy with their freewill. Example, all it takes is for one of guests at the inn to use his freewill to give up his room to Mary and Joseph!

Dtruthspeaker:
If truly you can read you would see that Einstein does not say "those who believe in freewill are wrong".

He just says he, Einstein does not believe in it. Simple English.

And the argument is not about what Einstein says or anybody says, but about you supplying a valid counter to the argument I have raised above before you brought Einstein, which you failed to counter as you dodged it to start saying Einstein said.



If I did not answer the guy's questions, you would have shown where he said I did not answer his question when he responded to my answer.

So, it is you who lying against me.



Our argument is at this point
https://www.nairaland.com/8569885/christianity-free-modern-technology-devices/2#137639045

Where you now replied to my off point remark saying it "Has nothing to do with atheist" and you never"came back" to counter my answer saying "Look at the definitions, does it define free as obtain your goal arising from your act?
No"



Do you not know that invalid and unlawful arguments are not allowed?

Or do you not know that themeaning of Off means the invalid argument of leaving and running away from the argument in issue to start raising another arguement on another issue?

It is also the fallacy known as
Red Herring
The red herring fallacy is an intentional tactic where an irrelevant topic is introduced to deliberately distract the audience's attention from the original, important issue.

I even told this has been answered in this thread by even an atheist

Re: Predestination Vs Free Will by Horus(m): 2:32pm On Dec 28, 2009

There are some things which are beyond your control. That is your destiny. Then there are things where you have a choice. That is free-will. If it’s raining outside, it’s your destiny as you have no control over the weather. However, to be wet or remain dry is your free-will.

So, you are just pretending you don't understand because you do not have any right thing to say again.

Ok, now that I see what you were incoherently rambling let me respond to you.

What nullifies your obviously shallow-thinking going-out-in-the-rain point is that you say it doesn't matter the reason you go or don't out in the rain. Because in that case AI or even any automaton designed to respond to rain has exactly same "freewill"!

Have you conceded that God knows everything?

MaxInDHouse:
I won't cite but quote God Himself.


Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” ‭Genesis 18:20-21 NIV

“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” ‭Genesis 22:12 NIV‬‬

Who said He wants to go and confirm what is happening in Sodom and Gomorrah?
And who said He just knew Abraham truly had godly fear?

How can you say you believe in God and not instinctively know he knows EVERYTHING?? The Bible even says he knows your thoughts before you think them. So, bottom line, you don't believe in God or you believe in a limited God, NOT the all-powerul, all-knowing true God.
You were told to read the verses and report back.

Dtruthspeaker:
Einstein not believing in freewill, is him refusing to enter the argument.

So, he does not say that anybody right or left is right.

And the argument is not about what Einstein says or anybody says, atheist or not. I only pointed out that it is only you atheists who make this silly claim. Einstein did not make it rather it is you people who asked him how he views it, which you see, he did not want to enter into the argument. So he is not in the argument and all this OFF POINT.

Thus, the argument is about you supplying a valid counter to the argument I have raised above but YOU CANNOT and that is where the argument is



This is OFF POINT/DEPARTURE FROM THE ARGUMENT



Still Off Point and not the argument between you and I.

And the thread shows that I answered him and you see he responded getting the import of my answer, which as you can see, he could no longer make any valid argument after that so, he kept quiet.

So, this, does not stand.

And the cartoon question is off point and it is a question that has several threads dealing with it, so go to those threads and learn how it works.

https://www.nairaland.com/371817/predestination-vs-free#5200680

Even an atheist still made the connection and confessed the Truth of it.

Re: Predestination Vs Free Will by Horus(m): 2:32pm On Dec 28, 2009

There are some things which are beyond your control. That is your destiny. Then there are things where you have a choice. That is free-will. If it’s raining outside, it’s your destiny as you have no control over the weather. However, to be wet or remain dry is your free-will.

Our guy doesn't even read. See very shortened form of what Einstein said below. Maybe you can read that.

Don't mark yourself a liar. You never answered the guy about AI or you'd simply state your answer here.

What EXACTLY is this argument you keep saying you raised that cannot be answered. State it again because all I see from you is ridiculousity.

You keep saying "off-point". Why not say what exactly is off point and why. The Bible says in several places that God knows everything and even knows your thoughts before you think them. Or don't you believe in the Bible?

How can you believe in God and not believe he knows everything that will ever happen, meaning you don't believe in God - Atheit!

MaxInDHouse:
Answer the question Mr Atheist.

Where in the Bible did God told you He is omniscient?

I believe God knows everything. You mark yourself Atheist for not believing that. So Mr. Atheist go check out the following verses in the Bible and come report back to us:
Psalm 139:1-4 , Hebrews 4:13, Proverbs 15:3, Isaiah 46:9

MaxInDHouse:
Who told you God knew before hand that Adam will eat the forbidden fruit?

Presumptuousness again!

Ok, so you're an atheist who doesn't believe God is omniscient, all-knowing, and has pre-knowledge of everything. Okay o.

MaxInDHouse:
Instead of seeking support from others try to be confident of what you believe.

Adam was warned regarding the result of disobedience to that instruction so it's his fault!

It is totally ridiculous to say it was his fault (from human perspective)
1. God already knew he'd eat the apple (tell me how this does not imply he had no choice)
2. He saw that Eve ate the apple and did not die and became wiser.
3. His brain came up with the notion that the best thing for him to do was to eat the apple. He did not make his brain nor control it nor can override it
4. It was the very first time. If it were the second time and he was severely punished the first time then warned never to do it again, different.
5. It was his very first time and he already saw his wife eat it and nothing happened to her!

MarcinScholke:
According to the concept described in patent DE10253433A1, human thoughts could theoretically be captured, processed, and transmitted to an external server. In such a scenario, the server could analyze thought-patterns in a way similar to how Google processes search queries.

In theory, this could allow systems to detect certain harmful intentions before they turn into real actions. For example, if someone’s thought-patterns indicated preparation for a crime, law enforcement might be able to intervene before the crime is committed.

Amazing!

Dtruthspeaker:
It has everything to do with atheism. It is only atheists who make this silly claim.

And I told you already if you think they are right then bring your counter or their counters now, after all you already believe them, then it means you can represent them.



All these are rubbish and fallacious arguments for the definition of freewill does not care about where freewill comes from.

It is only concerned about your ability to do or refrain from doing a thing in accordance to your wish, desire or will.

So, that argument is a change of Post and departure from post

Well. Einstein was NOT an atheist. See his take on freewill below. Many other non-atheists also.
You'd seem to be the atheist since you don't believe in God's pre-knowledge of all things that'll happen (see cartoon below).
You were asked what man can do with his "freewill" that AI can't do with it"s. No answer, instead you came up with some ridiculousity.
Why not will yourself not to think of a pink elephant or to stop feeling happy or sad.
Anyway, the cartoon below says you're an atheist who doesn't believe God's omniscience. Explain how it is wrong.

Dtruthspeaker:
You are the ones who are shallow if not you would counter my points here to prove your belief.

In this issue, it is either you guys are right and I am wrong or vice versa. So if you think you are right counter my answer if you can.



Look at the definitions, does it define free as obtain your goal arising from your act?

No

Or does it define will as obtaining the fruits of your will?

No.

It only says "ability to act to do your wishes or desire whether you are successful or not."

Same for will which is expression of your personal desire, wish or choice whether it given/received or not.

So frustrations and depressions or joys and happiness are other things that separate and distinct as one of the bye products of the exercise of your freewill.

And you see, you choose depression forgetting it's opposite is joy. And this is why we Christians tell you little atheists or atheists wannabes that it is your delus that is controlling you and making you believe things you know that they are Lies, because of the pains and sufferings and depressions you guys go through since you exercised your freewill to reject God and His Ways. But no problem, I respect your freewill.

So back to the issue, depressions and joys are simply bye products arising from your use of your freewill. And suicide, is even an example of an exercise of freewill exactly how choosing to drive safely is the exercise of your freewill to live.

Man wills what he wills and can will whatever he wills to will, but, it is up to the Will of those greater than man to determine whether the man's will, will materialize.

Has nothing to do with atheist. I have already said all this is from HUMAN perspective and that there are likely things we're not aware of.
Do some research on free will and what people smarter than yourself say.
Where do your thoughts come from? Do you decide it?
Those thoughts lead to your choices. Where does your intuition come from? Do you decide it? These things originate with activities in inner recesses of your brain that you are not aware of, based on your past experiences you have likely long since forgotten
Not only that, neurological science has determined that your choice appears on your brain BEFORE you consciously make a choice. Google it and stop arguing long-settloed matter

Dtruthspeaker:
If your will operates within constraints you didn’t choose, it’s not free, it’s just an illusion at best. Did we choose to be born and participate in life in the first place? Did we choose our genetic makeup, the structure of our brain, the way your biology reacts to our environment, the century or location we were born into, our temperament/personality, our trauma, our instincts, or our cognitive limits? Obviously no to all those questions - not even a single yes - ergo no free will.

Imagine claiming a prisoner is free because during his set alloted "free time" he can choose to go to the gym or library. Or a chess piece thinking it’s free because it can move in the directions the game allows, but it forgets it can’t move outside the board or in any direction not permitted. Wonder why people still spout this buried argument.
Very apt indeed.
Cc: Dtruthspeaker, MaxInDHouse



This is thrash

Free already means
free
/friː/
adjective 1. able to act or be done as one wishes;

Will already means
Will
/wɪl/
Verb 1. An expression of a personal desire, wish or choice,

So freewill is the combination of those words which mean "an ability to act in expression of one's personal desire, wish or choice"

No where is it stated that there must be no constraints or limitation for freewill to be freewill.

As long as you were free to will and act or refrain from acting, freewill has been fully and freely exercised and implemented.

And that is why when you have agreed to pay the price of fuel, you cannot say and you do not say that you did not have freewill. It is as simple and clear as that and so there is no debate on this issue.

That guy is right, you sound rather shallow. Why not read up on these things some b4 arguing further.
If you can will whatever you wish why are there addictions, depressions, all the way to suicides?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxHL_4HKYGs?si=Lgk2pt3zwTQgutnI

Lucifyre:
Couldn't be more apt. Free will as a matter of fact doesn't exist as has been demonstrated scientifically with Libet's experiment and the Split Brain experiment. Even the bible doesn't support it as well, reading through you'd quickly find out it isn't even biblical - not like the bible's accurate on most things but still. Then just thinking logically, that one just buries it.

If your will operates within constraints you didn’t choose, it’s not free, it’s just an illusion at best. Did we choose to be born and participate in life in the first place? Did we choose our genetic makeup, the structure of our brain, the way your biology reacts to our environment, the century or location we were born into, our temperament/personality, our trauma, our instincts, or our cognitive limits? Obviously no to all those questions - not even a single yes - ergo no free will.

Imagine claiming a prisoner is free because during his set alloted "free time" he can choose to go to the gym or library. Or a chess piece thinking it’s free because it can move in the directions the game allows, but it forgets it can’t move outside the board or in any direction not permitted. Wonder why people still spout this buried argument.

Very apt indeed.
Cc: Dtruthspeaker, MaxInDHouse

Though, as I've said before, this is from our very limited human perspective. There are very likely things we're not aware of as humans - otherwise how can it possibly be Adam's fault that he ate the apple?!

Dtruthspeaker:
How is it different from Google translator or the old answering machine?

Have people not been complaining since that their conversations are been recorded?

You think those records are in Ojota dustbin site?

Now, we see one of the results of their years of recording human interaction.

So it is because they have not yet made the street light to reply you exactly as my old Casio answering machine.

MaxInDHouse:
This is pure lies!
God gave all of us working brains but while many choose to be evil playing along few are thinking critically knowing without being told that something is wrong with the system that's what brought us out of the wicked system into the truth of God.
I had no experience but was born into a religious system that supposed to shape my thinking yet it couldn't because i was constantly disturbed as i keep asking questions upon questions and there was no one who could give a satisfying answer.
So freewill made me what i am today not experience if i was born among JWs i would have said what i believe is based on experience but i wasn't!🙂

I don't know if it is that u folks don't reason at all because to me it doesn't take much reasoning to see that EVERY conscious thing you do is due to your thinking which originate in processes from deep within your brain that you're not even aware of, that you neither control nor can override - because there is nothing you can override it with outside the brain!

And as the guy above wrote, all the smartest people agree including Einstein (see screenshot above).
You wrote "God gave us a working brain" but you don't control how that brain works nor can you override it. "Your choice" originate in processes from deep within your brain that you don't control, nor can override, nor even aware of!

AI is a self-learning machine like man and if you imbed it with the idea it has freewill, it can't imagine that it doesn't!

But of course, as I said b4, all this is from human perspective and reasoning. There must be elements we're not aware of otherwise there'd be no way anyone can say it's Adam's fault he ate the apple!

DiarisGodoo:
He has a point. Can you have conversation with a streetlight exactly as a human?

No mind am. He doesn't know what is AI. Probably an older guy. AI that will converse with you better than a human

Dtruthspeaker:
Are out vehicles not already faster than us?

And you do not real eyes it is because those answers have been fed into it?

Haven't failures already shown you that freewill means that you exercise the right and power of not learning a thing? Of which even now you are a good example of such a person.

Your profile statement already proves how big your personal delu, Shawn is operating at

Dtruthspeaker:
Even when since 1980 you have seen street lights come on when darkness falls and doors open on approval you say this?
Come on dont embarrass your parents

My friend AI is not street light. You keep beating about the bush. AI is a self-learning machine EXACTLY as a human.
But of course all this is from human perspective and reasoning. There must be elements we're not aware of otherwise there'd be no way anyone can say it's Adam's fault he ate the apple!

budaatum:
Yeah, that is dumb.

Its after all not true that the laws of "thou shalt not steal or murder" stop me murdering and killing.

And I might not even be punished if I am smart enough to not be caught.

Cc: MaxInDHouse

Dtruthspeaker:
So, your act of typing here and me responding is an illusion?

But when you are stolen from, you won't say a fake stealing took place.

It is apparent that you live in denile 8 delu Shawn as your statement in your profile says.

AI can type even faster and come up with better answers. But you instinctively know it's freewill is an illusion, yet you can't see that you have exactly same type of "freewill"!

Dtruthspeaker:
Are you hearing yourself? A.i comes ready made to be used yet by you yet, you gave it the human status of tabular rasa? Not to talk of the fact that it was created to serve you?

AI is a self-learning machine that is "born" with a certain type of "brain" then exposed to experiences. Tell me how a human is different

Dtruthspeaker:
Freewill that you have over exercised from your birth to the point of the ridiculousness of deflecting it on the things you created? Oneday, when they tell you that matches has freewill you will buy it?
This is definitely brein laundry in operation

It really doesn't take much thought to realize freewill is an illusion. You don't control where your thoughts come from and your actions are based on your thoughts - unless u say they are based on nothing!

MaxInDHouse:
This is not about experience rather it's a matter of CHOICE. If i'm to go by what you call experience i was born and raised among Muslims but something within me just can't work with the religion so i keep questioning the religion until i found another that pleases my personality.
So that's FREEWILL not experience!

See my comment above. Your actions are based on something. You yourself said it didn't make sense to you. The reason it didn't make sense to you is your type of brain and type of info and experiences you've been exposed to.
Exactly like AI

Dtruthspeaker:
O Please, don't disgrace yourself. How do you imagine that, with all the years of internet and updates?

Meaning what?
EXCTLY like a human child, AI is "born" a clean slate with a certain type of "brain" then exposed to info. ALL it's actions and decisions are a result those, EXACTLY like a human

Dtruthspeaker:
I don't think you know what freewill is.

Au contraire, you're the one who doesn't know.
It really doesn't take much thought to realize humans don't have any real free will

MaxInDHouse:
YES!
I was born into Islam and from day one i keep asking questions because it doesn't sound reasonable to me until i came in contact with Jehovah's Witnesses before faith in God began making sense to me.
So if i never met the JWs by now i will be an atheist!😟

AI will do exactly same.
Without your brain and experiences there is no "you" that will make a decision - just as without it's "brain" and info it's exposed to there is no AI

Dtruthspeaker:
As long as you do not say that calculators and computers have freewill, then we can play

AI is not just a calculator. It teaches itself exactly like a human

MaxInDHouse:
Of course i am that's why i choose what to believe out of thousands of religious ideas!

So if you were given a different type of brain, born in a different place to different people with different experiences you'd still have made the same choice?

MaxInDHouse:
Is AI an independent creature?🤔

Independent in what sense? Are you Independent?

budaatum:
Actually, it means its opposite, that AI has no freewill.

But the fact that humans have not been passed down any law that they must follow or be punished, is the precise definition of freewill.

It's after all not true that humans must follow any law laid down anywhere. Or do you know any laws laid down anywhere that I must follow or be punished?

I was responding to his assertion that the proof of freewill is that society has laws

budaatum:
AI does not have any will at all, and can not decide to turn anywhere apart from that it is told to by its human creator.

Grok has the will of Elon.

So you answered your own question. EXACTLY like Grok, a human's "freewill" is constrained by the info he is exposed to. If you expose Groc to anti-Nazi propaganda it will be anti-Nazi