₦airaland Forum

MaxInDHouse:
Guy only the Governing Body qualifies to be anointed of God all others rely on miracles as that's what their followers are looking for!

Oga, you have not answered me. So you do not understand the sentence? if you now understand it, you should be apologizing for your misguided attack on me. And not switching to something else I never brought up.

MaxInDHouse:
John the baptist had such a FIXED DATE in mind though he never mentioned it that's why he questioned Jesus' credentials when Jesus didn't come to rescue him in prison yet John believed the end of badness is here after baptizing Jesus! Matthew 11:2-3


Many first century Christians also had such a FIXED DATE in mind when Jesus told Peter saying:

“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” John 21:22

The rumor went round among first century Jewish disciples of Christ that Jesus will come back to establish God's Kingdom before the death of apostle John! John 21:21-23


They had such a FIXED DATE in mind though they never mentioned it that's why they asked him if God's Kingdom will be given to Israel immediately after Jesus' resurrection! Act 1:6

So if it's a crime to anticipate a FIXED DATE in mind for the end of badness then John the baptist and Jesus' disciples are guilty!

John had a fixed date, though he never said it. How then do you know if he never said it?

I think you should be researching the publications before you comment. You're making errors that even Watchtower can not make.

It is true that Jews, including Jesus disciples thought that Messiahs coming will usher in the kingdom. That was the belief probably as taught by the Rabbis.

Actually the Messiah will usher in the kingdom according to the prophecy at Isaiah 9. But when he will do so no one knows. They didn't have any fixed date. It was just expectation just as we do have today about God's kingdom.

Secondly, John 21 is not about John the Baptist. It's about apostle John, the writer. Even that is not a fixed date. Who knows when John will die?

In summary, there was a high sense of urgency and expectation at the time, but they didn't have any fixed date when the kingdom will come. And all there expectation was not by calculating dates and fixing when the kingdom will come, it was just a normal human curiosity. JWs fixing dates was not a sense of urgency, but misinterpretations of the scriptures.


But they never had any fixed date in mind. There was a high sense of urgency during that time because of how they understand the law and prophets.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted shows you're just deceiving yourself all this while claiming you have studied the Bible with holy Spirit.

If anointed of God could only be known through miraculous works why did Jesus say it's not the criterium? Matthew 7:21-23

Why did Jesus say false prophets will perform miracles that may confuse the REAL anointed? Matthew 24:24

Is it possible for a maker of counterfeit money to produce naira notes that will confuse those in charge of printing real money?
Shouldn't the printer of real money know all its features so that he could recognize it anywhere?

Guy you don't know anything better go back to the Kingdom Hall and humbly accept a Bible study from Jehovah's Witnesses, tell them how you've missed your route on the spiritual journey!

Don't tell me you don't understand that sentence. The sentence says opposite of what youre attacking. Check it once more.

gisevak:
Christians and their likes, could Jesus' birthday on December 25th be more than just tradition? What historical evidence supports this timing?

A second view suggests that December 25 became the date of Jesus’ birth by a priori reasoning that identified the spring equinox as the date of the creation of the world and the fourth day of creation, when the light was created, as the day of Jesus’ conception (i.e., March 25). December 25, nine months later, then became the date of Jesus’ birth. For a long time the celebration of Jesus’ birth was observed in conjunction with his baptism, celebrated January 6."

That is the plausible origin of the date.

pinkylovely:
EXACTLY! You've said it all. It is said that higher education is a personal decision yet every blessed moment (in videos, literatures, in conventions, kingdom hall), the idea of higher education is heavily discouraged.

Sad. Just sad.

Don't mind them, if you have the opportunity enroll and get your degree. The people who tell you not to go to university do ask elders if they know any brother or sister who is a doctor, estate manager etc. Was Rolf Furuli not a professor while helping the watchtower write publications and make research for them? Was he not a high ranking member before he left? Was James Penton not a professor who wrote some amazing awake articles before he left? Don't mind those hypocrites. Are their lawyers not graduates?

pinkylovely:
Some days I just want to vent. Other days, I really just want someone who understands to hear me out without tagging me an apostate.

As a JW, over time, I've questioned some of the denomination's doctrines. E.g abstinence from blood transfusion even in life threatening situations, 144,000, marrying only in the denomination...etc.

It's sad that when I genuinely seek to find answers about why certain things are the way they are in the denomination, I end up getting bashed.

Sometimes, I wish my heart just never started questioning things. Maybe I'll still be wallowing in my naivety and agreeing to every single thing the denomination tells us to do. But no matter how hard I try to just ignore what I feel, I still have questions. Lots of 'em.

So, my only option? Bottle up how I feel even it deeply hurts and pretend everything is fine. Yet, every day. Every blessed day, I feel like I'm fading away.

Was just wondering if there are other Nigerian PIMOs in here?

You can always drop your comments. Maybe vent it out as well and let's all connect.

Yes. You have a PIMO here.

I can understand how you feel. Cognitive dissonance is real. But don't drop questioning things that doesn't line up with scriptures.

If you check my profile, you will see me discuss the unscripturalness of these teachings.

MaxInDHouse:
"Repent for God's Kingdom is at hand"


John the baptist, Jesus of Nazareth and his first century Jewish disciples said this over 2,000 years ago yet nothing happened till today.

So does that makes John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth false prophets?

So you think that fixing a definite date the kingdom will come is the same as having a sense of urgency?

Courz:
Very True. Never get baptised! That's the trick to escaping JW. If you get baptised, you are finished! Many people did this and ended up lucky enough so they could leave JW with ease.

The Indoctrination starts from the Bible study JWs conduct with the public when they go preaching. I didn't understand this until I left JW. JW Leaders carefully planned everything they do to be an Indoctrination/Brainwashing exercise. I have come across many people who refuse to even engage with JWS because they are aware the preaching alone is a Brainwashing technique. JW Leaders know this., that's why they are always forcing all JWs to attend meetings regularly so the Brainwashing can be effective for many years till a JW dies.

This is why people like us are here to educate the Public on this so they don't fall prey.

Very true. It hard to notice that the whole home bible study with bible students was brainwashing technique. They make it seem as if they are loving you by providing free home study. It is meant to brainwash you from what you previously believe then introduce their error. And this study is done with people who know nothing about theology nor the reason for their church's theological position.

None of those are scriptural, it is a brainwashing move. Think about it, did Jesus not Paul ever go to people's home to conduct hime bible studies every week, for years? What they do, is it not to preach publicly, if you accept, you get BAPTIZED immediately, then you then join a nearby home meeting where you worship with others who have believed? Today, it would be like, preach, then invite those who believe to a nearby church. Simple. Nothing like coming to someone's house with a prearranged study book to keep brainwashing you each week for years. This is a Governing body technique. It has nothing to do with the bible. The Return Visit Paul did was to go and revisit the home congregations he established as he preached from each city. It was not to homes to continue studying and studying. They aim to make you disbelieve what you believed before and then chose them. This Governing body guys are smart I tell you.

Courz:
This thread will highlight the dangers of being a Jehovah's Witness. Some of you out there are already aware. But there are some who don't know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses. All you know is what they present to you. So, this thread will serve as a resource for people who must have encountered JWs or have been/are being preached to in order to be converted to the religion.

JWs look harmless and present an image of religious piety. Some of them are honest and simple people while there are others who are the opposite but these ones hide under that image to make themselves look good. The image a JW presents to you is a carefully crafted image made solely to Lure people in. People who only look at image will be greatly Deceived. But people who have spiritual discernment will look beyond the Physical and focus on their doctrines and how the doctrines affect their lives. So, the dangers of being a Jehovah's Witness is heavily tied to their Doctrines and what the doctrines do for them physically, Psychologically and Spiritually.

As an EXJW who has done a very deep investigation on the JW religion, I will point out the implications of being a Jehovah's Witness and I will be very honest about it. The implications will never be revealed to you if you are someone they are studying with to bring you into the religion. As someone who was born into it, there are a lot of things I didn't even Know until I got to the age of maturity enough to understand them. So, here are the dangers/implications of being a Jehovah's Witness.

1) You will be isolated from your loved ones that are not Jehovah's witnesses. In the Kingdom Hall, you will be encouraged to only mingle with fellow JWs. You will be told that everyone who is not a JW is Worldly, they are past of Satan's world and will be destroyed at Armageddon. So, you shouldn't have close relationships with them. They will say they are better friends than anyone you will get outside JW. You will hear this phrase a lot amongst them, The Worst JW is far better than a Worldly. In the beginning, while mingling with JWs, you will be presented with a picture of a Loving environment. You will experience what we call Love bombing. They will be so nice to you. After you have gotten baptised and they have gotten used to you, you will start to see their flaws. You will start to see many Cliques that you may struggle to fit in.

The JW religion doesn't promote autonomy of personality. You are supposed to behave like they do, talk like they do and think like they do. If you are very good at blending with their kind, you will blend well. But if your personality is authentic and you just cannot behave like a Robot, you will struggle in this religion. So, at some point, it can be lonely if you choose to listen to them when they say you cannot mingle with others that are not JW. You may even have just few friends in JW because of this. There are many EXJWs who admitted that they had a very hard time having friends in JW because of the Cliques.

The isolation the religion brings to your life will depend on how serious you take it. If you choose to be like me who never listened to this Isolation doctrine and went ahead to have friends who are not JWs, you will not feel isolated when you choose to Leave the religion. The isolation becomes worse if you have family that are JWs and you depend on them one way or the other. If you choose to leave, your family will avoid you as their doctrine demands.

You want to join JWs, pay attention to the bolded parts. It is better you don't baptize, cos if you do baptize and the above is true, you will suffer the most. You may even attempt suicide. Don't ever make that mistake. If you like them, just be there friends and NEVER baptized. But if they have gotten you indoctrinated, sorry, you will feel this advise is from apostates, not until you decide you want to leave.

But courz it is hard for a new person to know this. Very very hard. The indoctrination is too strong and well thought out.

gohf:
Miss which point, you skip what God and Jesus says to write down your own logic and you fail to realise your own logic fails you. If God is above heaven and earth and everything or all power in heaven and earth is given to Jesus how does he equate to the one who is above all?

Giving honor to the governor is based on understanding he is the governor but you do then call him the president and give him presidential honor?

Don't forget that the given authority is during Jesus incarnation. People do miss the fact that Jesus performed two functions, one as human for the salvation of man, and one in his Divinity. During Jesus Christophany, as we see in the Old Testament, Jesus doesn't come at that time as if he was given authority by God. He came as God intoto. Consider his appearance to Adam and his wife. Did you see Jesus then saying, God told me to tell you? He came as God. Even Jehovah's witnesses acknowledged that Jesus may have been the one appearing then.

I think Jesus Redemptive role is what people mistake and I see why many see it that way, I saw it so before.

If we read the praise given to Jehovah at Isaiah 6:1-3, we will think the person on the throne is God the father right? But John 12:41 tells us that Jesus was the one there. So don't confuse Jesus Redemptive role with his Divinity.

gohf:
"
Exodus 20 God spoke, He YHVH is God and there is none like Him nor should we have any besides Him.
Was He lying?

Jesus is evidently the one who made that statement. But that is another topic.

I agree we are not to have another besides God, however, there are many places where Jesus is worshipped, even in his christophanic appearances in the OT. What Trinity teaching is doing is to bring a summary of whom God is so as not to ignore other scriptures that presents someone else who is worshipped. Let me give one example of what I mean.

Now, the scripture you quoted above shows we shouldn't worship another God, but notice what happened at Josh 5:14-15. Pls read it.

First, do you agree that the Prince of Jehovah's Army is Jesus? If yes, do you agree he was worshipped there? Additionally, check rev 5:8-14. Do you agree Jesus is worshipped there as Jehovah is?

So which way can you have another Deity besides Jehovah? Don't you think that seeing them as having one essence help dispel any contradictions?

John 1:3 like I said, it still didn't call him the creator but the means by which the creator made what was made. For example I can't send you this message without a phone, network, data, technology etc. I used this to reach out, do you understand

Perhaps you didn't mean to make Jesus inanimate, but the analogy seem to suggest that. What I think you mean is that Jesus was just an Agent through which God made things, as such, God is the creator and not Jesus.

I used to see it that way before, but I saw one scripture that challenged that. Let's see Heb 1:10-12

And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”

Here we see Jesus clearly praised as the creator. All creation are the work of Jesus hands.

This verse is taken from Psalm 102:25-27. A place used to praise God for his creations. Here Paul is saying that Jesus was in fact the person being praised there for creation.

Will you not agree that if Jesus was just an agent and nothing more like me and you are as we preach the goodness, he will not need to be praised for what he did as an Agent? Notice the final words;

"and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end."

This verse can only refer to God. God is the only one who is immutable. Also confirm from Heb 13:8. Only God can have that description.

What Trinity is saying is that this unique nature possess by God the Father is shared by both the Son and the Spirit. For me, this reconciles many scriptures attributing the Father's unique characteristics to others.

so you do understand and by the way the subject here isn't the divinity of Jesus but if he is God. Of course there is only one God and then only one mediator and son, Jesus Christ

At times the bible uses the word God in reference to God the Father, in some cases to the Son or the Holy Spirit. These three have God being used for them in a unique way as to the Supreme Deity. So if there were no place what is unique to God is assigned to others, I don't think we will be having this conversation now. But there are, and you have to reconcile it.

What exactly did I write or quote, anyway I am certain I wrote and you read that Jesus is at the right hand of God and not that Jesus is God.

Saying that because Jesus did what God can do makes him God is like saying everyone from Moses to Elijah is God. Do not forget to read verse two that it is God who appointed Jesus to that very position and not Jesus himself

Jesus was not appointed to be the exact FACSIMILE of His very BEING. Maybe you might need to see the force of that Greek word. This means that all the unique attribute of God is the exact same Jesus has. This is not the same as creatures have. We still see a similar phrasing at Phil 2. God's FORM. check that in Greek as well.

There is no way to escape Jesus nature as being same with God the Father. This is what the scripture says, not trinitarians.

God the Father occupies a headship role in the divine council. So almost all things are credited to Him, I think this made us think that He is the only one involved. The incarnation brought more revelation to us that in fact Jesus was sharing in all the glory given to God the Father when in heaven. (John 17:5)
Gen 1:26 gave us a hint that only one person is not involved, but it wasnt clearly revealed then.

Being at God's right hand or receiving authority from Him doesn't change his nature. It only shows that God the Father as the head is credited with assigning roles and authority. It also shows that humility rules even within the divine council. It doesn't diminish the nature. Jesus subjects to the father as well. Scholars call this functions or roles within the divine council.

Consider this, people have grieved God before and was forgiven, but if you grieve the Holy Spirit, you won't be forgiven. That doesn't mean the Spirit is greater than God the Father, but it is the role the Spirit occupies that make him have that authority.

MightySparrow:
Any honest readers of the Bible would know that to deny the deity of Jesus is not easy. A lot of panel eating would be required to do that.

Anyway any false claims will require false evidences.
I am particularly not interested in the NWT of Jehovah's Witnesses for the fact it is too parochial and the writers identity and proficiency in Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew languages is not known.

Peter said, angels desired to look into the agenda of salvation, they were not allowed. Jehovah's Witnesses say, the programme of salvation is championed by Angel Michael.


However, I must commend the JW's for making many Christians to read and study the Bible. I think Dr. Damina is also shaking the table and sending people to their Bibles.

Yes. Abel Damina is doing a great work. Perhaps God wants to use him to shake His church. Not that all he says is true, but many have lost interest in the bible and are more interested in money.

olola4:
After embarrassing them…so you don't even have any evidence against them and the church has already dismissed them based on allegations from a faceless blog…SMH

The dismissal is temporary until investigation is concluded.

Rev 22:6 says
6 He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. 7 Look! [b]I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll."(NWT)

Note: the word "Jehovah" was inserted by New World Translation committee. Check the interlinear to confirm.

Two line of evidence pointing to Jesus are:

1. The person that sent his Angel to declare the message to his slaves is Jesus, not Jehovah. Read Rev 1:1.

2. The phrase "I am coming QUICKLY" is consistently attributed to Jesus in the book of Revelation, not Jehovah. (Read rev 2:16; 3:11; 22:20)

Let's start with the first point.

Rev 1:1 says in part:
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he (Jesus) sent his angel..."

Rev 22:16 add more proof.

16 “‘I, JESUS, sent my angel to bear witness to you...

So we see that even from the context of Revelation 22, Jesus is the one that sent his Angel.

What about the second point, "I am coming QUICKLY"?

From Revelation chapter 22 also, and even the whole revelation book, that phrase is used for Jesus.

However, chapter 22 identified who is coming quickly. Who? Verse 29 answers:

20 “The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”

Therefore, Revelation chapter 22 contextually identifies Jesus as God, and also Alpha and Omega. (Verse 12, 13)

Next time, I will discuss Alpha and Omega in the book of revelation.

Tags: achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan, Dtruthspeaker

gohf:
almost forgot this post exists, saw it the day I was so busy

I know someone may have been led by God to respond to you but incase why not read verse 15 before verse 17

Col.1.15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (KJV)

Jesus being the first creation of God isn't God Himself the creator of all who used him to make others

Firstborn doesn't mean first creature, try reading verse 16. It helps show why he is called the firstborn. It gives the reason when it says "because by him are all things made".

Secondly, seeing Jesus as a creature goes against John 1:3 which unambiguously says that "apart from him not EVEN ONE thing was made". That is totally unambiguous.

Heb.1.2 But now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he made the universe and everything in it. (NLT)
Heb.1.3 The Son reflects God's own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven

Jesus being used by God to create things doesn't affect his divinity. That is if you understand the subject.

From what you quoted on Heb 1:3, you see clearly that Jesus is the exact representation of His very BEING. the point of Trinity is exactly that, Jesus is of the same essence as God the Father. Sustaining the all things by the word of His power can only be work done by the Almighty for that would mean sustaining even all creatures, angels, humans, universe etc. A creature cannot do this.

Is Jesus undermined by being called son of God and not God? Do you think he is that proud like the devil who wants to be who he is not?

I don't understand how this fit.

The power of a creature? The question is who gave the power.

The sun shines everyday how can the sun have so much power to illuminate all the earth, it was given so.

That scripture didn't say the power was given. He is already the exact representation of God's being. So He possess that power essentially.

cutecommend:
If you go to some Christian weddings, you may hear worldly songs during the reception. Some churches too may sing or change some worldly songs into Christian songs.. If someone corrects them, they may say "Christianity is in the heart, and on that day we go see who enter heaven" ..

The truth is that a Christian loving worldly songs is fake. You may speak in tongues, cry during worship etc. But if you love worldly music, you are fake or weak Christian..

I John 2:15 says "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him"

It is good reply will start from asking us, what is worldly song? By worldly, do you mean songs without any gospel theme? A song sang by one who doesn't attend church? Or a song that promote what God hates, in other words, if Flavour sing about wedding, that isn't worldly because it is not what God hates?

It is difficult to know what people mean by worldly song, even me get confused as to what that statement really means. It appears that what comes to our mind is a song sang by celebrity secular musicians. But such secular songs do sometimes take on gospel titles. My question before I reply is, what is a worldly song?

Janosky:

FACT:

Oga Sand2022, your ghost deity never gave Paul a conflicting info @ Colossians 2:9 & Hebrew 1:3.
Oga Sand2022, your interpretation of Colossians 2:9 & Hebrew 1:3 is very faulty,built on quicksand.

The Evidence is this:
Trinitarian Sand2022:
@ Colossians 2:9, "Jesus is fully God".

Trinitarian Bill Mounce:
@ Colossians 2:9, Jesus is NOT fully God "

Why is the same ghost deity invented in 381 AD confusing Sand2022 & Bill Mounce ,Greek Bible scholar?

Trinity is a FRAUDULENT doctrine invented by men.
"The Colossians (2v9) were taught that Jesus is NOT fully God,& this is the very reason for the caution against false philosophy" of men.

Oga Sand,Go and convince Bill Mounce, your fellow Trinitarian.
Nah your ghost deity give am the Intel conflicting with your claim about Hebrew 1:3 & Colossians 2:9.

You remember why I don't respond to your comments?

CAPTIVATOR:
The same way You and I doesn't know certain things all the time. It doesn't mean we choose not to know, it's just not in our authority to know. The Bible is clear that Only the Father has the authority to set TIME. That's the only person that can choose not to know something. He alone has that authority and jurisdiction. Jesus doesn't know, not that he choose not to know

You seem to miss out on the fact that when the Watchtower says God chose not to know the Sodomites, that was not what the Bible says. The bible says that God will go to find out if what he has heard about them is the way it is, I am paraphrasing here. And if it is true, the verse says "I will get to KNOW IT". So from the scriptural phrasing, one can also say that God do not know it until He came to investigate. That place didn't say "well, I decided not to know it or I chose not to know it."

So that Jesus says he doesn't know shouldn't make you to conclude that He cannot know. He didn't say I CANNOT know. He is the one who will destroy the world, mind you. How is it that he CANNOT know?

This is a dumb take though, God , angels , and Jesus all have the same essence. Essence means Nature or what someone is made of. God, Jesus and the angels in heaven are all Spirit beings, that's their essence. In fact the bible speak of Christina's has having the hope of Divine ( God's ) Nature at ressurection. Does that mean they have same authority as God to know time and seasons ?

While God and the angels are spirits, this doesn't mean they are the exact FACSIMILE of God's VERY BEING. heb 1:3. God is not a creature. So no creature can be described as having the EXACT Facsimile of his not very person, but very BEING.

The Bible tells us more as well. The bible says that ALL the FULLNESS of DIVINE Godhead (theotes) dwells in him.

As a JW, do you remember the often quoted ROM 1:20? I guess you do. Now in that verse, "Godship" is mentioned there in reference to God. Remember? Good. Now the word that appeared in that ROM 1:20 for "Godship", is the exact same Greek word that appeared for Jesus at Colosians were it is said that ALL the FULLNESS of the divine Godship dwell in him.

Now how can you run away from that strong scriptural evidence of Jesus being much like facsimile of Jehovah?

CAPTIVATOR:
Use your Brain, only someone produced by another is called " SON" .

The title Son already tell you he is created

If by produce, you mean created, you are contradicting a scripture there. All that was created, all, I mean, all came from Jesus. That is what John 1:3 says. So it is scripturally wrong to use the word create for Jesus.

Brenbentondiaz:
So, Jesus in Revelation was still in human form, right? For your own sake I hope it's either you are taking the piss, or you were feeling sleepy when you typed this response.

Ok. Where did I miss out.

encyclopediax:
If Jesussssssssss issssssssss God. Why did he ssssssit by the Right Hand of The Majesty on High ? Who issssssss the Majesssssty on High ?

While he is God, he is not the same person as God the Father. This has always been the misunderstanding among JWs. The Trinity holds that they are of the same nature. That is the major point.

If Jesus isssssss God why doesssssss He ssssay " Only the Father Knows when the World will End ? " Good Master.... " Why call me though good ? Non is Good but God ," Jesus is asking why ssssssomeone is calling Him good and Wants only God the Father to be called good

I have addressed this issue of not knowing when the end will come above. Jesus plays two roles. He restrained himself of many things while in the flesh. He emptied himself as recorded at Phil 2:5-6

With regards to Jesus saying God good. Well, I don't think you mean that Jesus is not good. Is that your point? Take note also that Jesus is the called the ONLY Potentate at 1tim 6. Is Jesus the only Sovereign?

for God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son ". We can see there are two different entities the Father who gave his Son . Jesus is The Messiah and Savior of The World. He is not God and does not need to be God to save the world. Adam was not God. Jesus is The New Adam to Restore mankind back to God.

I don't see how all that changes anything. By saying "different entities", it appears you hold to Modalism, that is what JWs preach against. They teach less about the core traditional teaching of Trinity. To the church teaching that the father and Jesus are the same entity is heresy. So I agree with you that such teaching is false

TemmyT002:
The word 'God' is a title, like Lord, Chief, President, etc.
Jesus is a God. Even we are gods

But Jesus is not Jehovah God.
He is the son of God who has all the characteristics of his father.
God cannot come down to die for the same people He created.

It is true that the word God can stand for title. Even humans and angels can bear that title.

However, some scriptures shows that Jesus Godship goes beyond title. I have a thread where I delt broadly on that. Would you want to check it?

Before then, how would you explain the worship given him at Rev 5:13-14?

MaxInDHouse:
Continue deceiving yourself!
Each church today has a founder recognized in the society so who is the founder of your church because only one church claims to be church of Satan all others are claiming church of Christ yet there is contradictions everywhere!

I am not into church name stuff, I am for Jesus. If you want to know the one I currently attend in person, you already know it - Jehovah's Witness.

Brenbentondiaz:
Revelations 3:12; "Him that overcome will I make a pillar in the Temple of My God..." He probably said that as a human when He was in heaven, right? Or you're saying Almighty God has a God?

He still speaking in terms of his human nature. Christ was raised in human body, though now glorified, notice that he still answers the root and offspring of David and the lamb of God in the book of Revelation. David was never his Father prior to his humanity. But he now operates on that cos of his humanity. But at the same time, the divine nature he also possess.

Jesus operates from two natures from the time he came on earth and upwards. Scholars call this a hypostatic Union.

MaxInDHouse:
Guy i have told you countless times not to mention me again until you tell me the name of your church and what your church teaches.
There are thousands of churches today and they are not teaching the same thing so if your church teaches one thing it's just another kind of teaching which sounds appealing to members.
So what is the name of your church and what is your church stand on the matter?

My church is Church of Christ aka the body of Christ which I am part of.

tareboy:
He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32

Yes, as a human he had some limitations. Notice that at Luke 2:52, he is said to be increasing in wisdom and physical stature. Jesus while in heaven had complete knowledge, but as a man, he had some limitations.

However, what's your thoughts about his sustaining ALL things. Does that sound like what a creature can do?

jiggaz:
One of the benefits of believing the gospel of grace is that it completely changes the way you read the Bible. You realize that God is not in the bait and switch business of drawing you in with love only to hammer you with law – He is love all the way through. When you see this you will no longer get frightened when you read a passage like Hebrews 10:26 or this one four chapters earlier:

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (Heb 6:4-6)

If you wear the lenses of performance-based Christianity, this could be a scary scripture, for it sounds like your salvation hinges on your behavior. Do good, get good, but fall away and you’re lost forever. If that’s how this scripture appears to you, change your glasses! What you look through determines what you see. So read this scripture through the lens of Jesus and His finished work.

So who and what is this passage describing?

Some say that this scripture is referring to Christians – those who have become sharers or partakers in the Holy Spirit. If so, then the argument being made is deliberately nonsensical. If they fall away it is impossible for them to get saved again because Jesus would have to come and die again. Since Jesus isn’t going to die again, then it’s impossible for them to fall away. Instead of being a threat to your eternal salvation, this verse actually supports it. But I know not everyone will agree.

How many times can you be born again?

I have heard one reputable teacher say that if you are saved through an act of your free will, then you can get unsaved through an act of your free will. I guess the conclusion follows the premise but how true is the premise? Were you born into this world through an act of your free will? No, you had absolutely no say in the matter. So what about your spiritual birth?

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (Joh 1:12-13).

To be born again literally means to be born “from above” or, as John puts it, “born of God.” It is 100% a work of the Spirit. You may think that you came to God of your own free will, but reflect for a moment on what actually happened. Who was it that planted and watered the seed of the gospel? (Not you.) Who was it that made the seed grow? (Not you.) Who was it that lifted the veil so that you could see things as they really are? (Not you.) Do you see? You would never have called on the name of the Lord if He had not first called on you.

I don’t mean to get all zen on you, but here’s my point: When you were dead in the trespasses and uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with Christ (Col 2:13). You were dead; now you are alive – all this is because of Him.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, (2 Cor 5:17-18a)

The important thing is not how you got saved, but that you
are saved. When you received the gift of salvation, you became a new creation. If you were to fall away, it would be impossible for you to be born again because you have already been born again . It would be like an adult trying to return to the womb and re-enter the world through the birth canal. Just as it can’t happen in the natural, it can’t happen in the spiritual. Once you’re born you’re born! To claim that you can lose your salvation – that you can undo what God has done – is like saying that God makes mistakes. And He doesn’t.

You may act like an old creation just as a butterfly may act like a caterpillar. But when you do, you are acting contrary to you true identity. We used to say that Christians who fell into sin were back-sliders. But a more accurate description is that they are hypocrites. They are acting contrary to their true identity in Christ.

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Heb 12:14)

“Be holy” is not an instruction for improving performance; it’s an admonition to be who you truly are. Be holy, because you are, in fact, holy. “We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus once for all ” (Heb 10:10).

Eat the bread of life, don’t just taste it

Others say that this scripture (Heb 6:4-6 remember?) is referring to unbelievers. It is describing those who have tasted but not eaten the heavenly gift. They have seen the light but preferred the darkness. They may have received the gospel with joy but the seed never took root and grew. When trouble came they fell away. To my mind this is a perfect description of Judas.

Along with the other disciples Judas was involved in a supernatural ministry that saw him casting out demons and healing the sick (Mk 6:13). He may have even prophesied in Jesus’ name. Judas tasted the goodness of the word of God but ultimately he rejected it. When he walked out of the first communion he walked out on Jesus. He was basically saying, “No, your blood and your body are not good enough for me.” Judas preferred a DIY religion to the grace of God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 says that it is impossible for people like Judas to be brought back to the place of repentance. Why? Because they have heard the truth and rejected it. They have followed the way of Cain, held to the teaching of Balaam, and are in danger of ending up like Korah. Those who have never heard the good news of God’s grace may yet receive it. But those who have heard and hardened their hearts toward it, are well and truly lost.

A hard heart is a deadly thing. It will keep you from repenting, it will keep you restless and in bondage to works:
So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert.” (Heb 3:7-

Judas heard the voice of the Living Word but hardened his heart. He became restless to the point of suicide. He never came to the place of repentance. He never entered that rest which comes only through faith in Christ.

Righteous rain

In Hebrews 5 and 6 we learn that Jesus has been designated by God as a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. To a Hebrew reader raised on the covenant of law, this would have been an astonishing announcement: “Jesus, the eternal high priest, will forever mediate a new and superior covenant of grace underwritten by the unshakeable oath of God.” There are only two possible responses to such an announcement:

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. (Heb 6:7-

We can either receive the blessing of God that comes down from heaven like rain and, by so doing, become fruitful and useful, or we can reject what God offers us and be worthless and in danger of being cursed. The righteousness that God gives comes to us is like rain:

You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the Lord, have created it. (Isa 45:

God sends His rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. All we can do is respond. We can either put up umbrellas of religious works and say, like Judas, “No thanks, I don’t need it.” Or we can say, “Rain on this filthy sinner and make me clean.” The bad news of the old covenant is that no one will be declared righteous by observing the law (Rom 3:20). The good news of the new is that the righteousness gifted by God comes through faith in Jesus to all who believe (Rom 3:21).

https://escapetoreality.org/2012/02/28/hebrews-6v4-6/

Is it your point that Judas fail out of grace or what?

Omooba77:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMvE0FlOf7s?si=Sv3TCX-OqI_cbyHO



https://x.com/rccgyayaglobal/status/1842023838181212567

Throwback Video of Where he said If don't pay tithe you will not make heaven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpCgpR6dETY?si=4F-JgoxxRE1oBwl_

I think people still pay tithe in his church. Right?

We will look at col 1:17

Colossians 1:17 He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together.

A creature cannot possibly do that. Heb 1:3 tells us more.

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Notice that Jesus is here said to uphold ALL things by the word of His power. This is not just elevating all things, but the point is that Christ sustains ALL things, universe, humans, animals etc, by the word of His power. So after creating all things, He also sustains ALL things.

Also take note of the Power aspect. Such power must be the Highest form of power there is. For the power of a creature cannot possibly sustain all things.

This doesn't sound like what an ordinary creature can do. Does it?

Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan, Dtruthspeaker.

CAPTIVATOR:
Thank you for the highlighted. I'm glad we finally agree Jesus doesn't know the day and hour

That is consistent with what the Bible says. He does not know just as Jehovah's witnesses teach with regards to the Sodomites. You teach that Jehovah only knew when he came down to observe. So from JW view, you can no longer use this issue of knowledge against Jesus. If God doesn't know certain things at least for sometime, how then would you expect Jesus to know certain things all the time?

You said his humanity limited him, but you are very blind to the Fact that he mentioned angels, did humanity also limit the angels ? That nullify your point.

Not if you understand the Trinity doctrine which it appears you do not even understand. Jesus has the same essence as God, the angels do not possess this essence.

Now For your information , Jesus cannot " Choose" not to know , the same way the angel's, humans mentioned in that text didn't choose. Do we choose ? No. That bible verse is a pure testament to the Fact that only the Father has the Authority to set time and seasons.

No. You don't equate Jesus with humans and angels in his full divinity. I made this point above:

"Back to the point. Jesus never said he cannot know. After his resurrection notice that Jesus told his apostles that it does not belong to THEM(you) to know the date that the father has kept in his own JURISDICTION. So that is the role of His father to set the date. That is a role. Trinitarian agree that there can be distinction within the Godhead and that there are distinct roles.

First by Jesus saying it does not belong to "THEM" to know neither did he say it does not belong to US including himself, this could mean that at this time Jesus now knows, but he doesn't want to share that knowledge to THEM. He didn't now say "no one knows except the Father".

Jesus didn't say CANNOT. I mean how will he come to judge the world and destroy the wicked if he cannot know when the end will come? Is he not the one that will be bringing it to end?

CAPTIVATOR:
Having that authority to set time and season make him Omniscient. He just choose not to know. That's why you won't see the Father saying only certain person know, Once he choose not to know something, NOBODY ELSE CAN KNOW!

The JW do not believe in total omniscient like the church do.

If God doesn't know anything at any time and even if no one else knows, that nullifies His omniscience. Omniscient doesn't mean ability to know, but overall knowledge of everything both in the past, present and future. So if the JW view is that God doesn't know that Adam will sin, then God is not omniscient.

Jesus said he doesn't know, BUT ONLY the Father know. That is not a choice!!!! Just as every other person mentioned in that Matt 24:36 including angels didn't have such choice. They actually do not know!

Point of correction. Jesus didn't say he cannot know, mind you. Cannot would refer to ability to know. That is not what Jesus says. He said no one knows, including him, so as at that time, that is true. You can't say that even now, Jesus doesn't know.

Of course Jesus was in his humanity. Trinitarians view his humanity as a bit of limitation to his divine essence. So this point isn't actually kicking against Trinity doctrine. You would need to make a criticism that takes note of what someone actually teaches. Not what he doesn't.

Back to the point. Jesus never said he cannot know. After his resurrection notice that Jesus told his apostles that it does not belong to THEM to know the date that the father has kept in his own JURISDICTION. So that is the role of His father to set the date. That is a role. Trinitarian agree that there can be distinction within the Godhead and that there are distinct roles.

First by Jesus saying it does not belong to "THEM" to know neither did he say it does not belong to US including himself, this could mean that at this time Jesus now knows, but he doesn't want to share that knowledge to THEM. He didn't now say "no one knows except the Father".

Please do not look down on roles within the Godhead or jurisdictions. For eg, one can speak against God and Jesus and be forgiven, but you don't dare speak against the holy spirit. You won't be forgiven that sin, either now nor even in the new system of things. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit is now greater than Jesus and God the father? It is simply roles and jurisdictions. And don't make it also sound as if the role occupied by the Holy Spirit is superior to that of the father and Son.

Jesus said who will sit in his left and right is his father to give. It doesn't mean that Jesus can't chose who will be there, but that is His father's jurisdiction.

You ask me to show you how others know what God chose not to know.

Didn't you see my reference to Sodom? People like Lot started lamenting about the badness of the area. Meaning that Lot and his family were the ones complainng about the errors of the Sodomites, then God said He would go down to investigate whether the complaint He had heard is true. I am just paraphrasing here.

So those who are making the complain already knows they were bad. When God investigated, did He not agree that their sin was indeed too bad as people complained?

I am telling you JW position on this subject. Bear that in mind.

Show me a single place the Father choose not to know something but claims someone somewhere know?

See above

What makes him God Almighty is that authority , when he choose to not know, NOBODY ElSE can know. .

Everybody mentioned in Matthew 24:36 be it human , Son or angels Do NOT KNOW. It wasn't a choice.

Omniscient means one who knows all in the past, present and future. From JW view, God is not at least completely omniscient. So if Jesus is not completely omniscient, it doesn't affect his Godship from JW perspective.

CAPTIVATOR:
Do you know what it means to have the Sole authority to set time and seasons??

He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority." act 1:7

The Father can decide to know whatever he choose to know or not know. He alone has that authority.

Having that authority is not the issue, but that He doesn't know it at some point according to JWs, so God is not omniscient. That being the case, Jesus can also chose not to know. Another implication of this is that he doesn't know doesn't mean he is not God, just as God didn't know whether Adam will sin doesn't mean he isn't God.