₦airaland Forum

paxonel:
Well, in Christianity there is only one prophecy that should concern Christians and that prophecy is Christ.

Every other prophecies we think is coming from pastors concerning our immediate lives and future fortunes are all fake

Christ is the central figure that all prophecies point to. So all true prophets emphasize that. But they tell about the future as well.

MaxInDHouse:
Were they expecting the Kingdom during their lifetime?
If so then they have surely FIXED a day or month or year because what they have in mind will always reflect in their conversation with a relatives who is not a Christian or neighbour.

If they ever fixed a year, a month or whatever, there is no way to reach that conclusion from the scriptures. A high expectation is already in the land. The Jews see the Messiah as one who will liberate them from Roman captivity and establish his kingdom, but that Jesus disciples fixed a date cannot be concluded from what they said.

John 21 might be a possibility that some expected the kingdom during John's lifetime. But can we call that a fixed date? I doubt. who knows how long John will live? Even John who wrote the epistle sounded as if he himself didn't even reach that conclusion himself. He pointed out what Jesus actually said and what some concluded from what he said. So did all, as God's organization at the time teach that the kingdom will come during johns lifetime? No, obviously John didn't see it so. But did some concluded so, yes. How long did that expectation last? We don't know, but there is nothing in the other books of the new testament that suggests that these lasted a long time, and never did any preach such a doctrine. It was never officially agreed by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem.

So I don't see how one will find any first century parallel to the organization's fixing dates for the kingdom coming and even announcing it in public preaching. God's people in Bible times didn't do that.

haddeylium:
People in general connect the word “prophet” with predictions of the future. Though prophets in the Bible usually proclaimed predictions about the future, the Scriptural definition of a prophet is wider:
In Bible times, prophet is a person who receives specific messages . they do not do that under their own initiative.

Today the organisation of Jehovah’s Witnesses act like a prophet in that we proclaim an old message, one that was written down in the pages of the Bible. We spread nothing new.

We have never made any false predictions.What we have been guilty of is misunderstanding some of the prophecies that relate to the “end times”.
Afterall, we never claimed that our researches are infallible. Contrary to many religions, we are prepared to change if we find out we were incorrect.

You can visit Jw.org for more information.
Use the keyword; Bible prophesy

My Post is for those who have deep interest in Bible and what it really teaches and It is not meant to challenge or dispute any personal belief and nor will I debate such. if your comments/questions are civil, I'll reply them'.


Have a great day

Jehovah's witnesses cannot be said to be inspired prophets who hear supernatural knowledge from above. I feel they are and should remain bible students and nothing more. This is where there appears to be contradiction.

You claim to be spirit directed because you follow your own understanding of what you read in the bible.

If you say you are not inspired, you read the bible and tries to see what it means, why then are you claiming to be exclusively used by God when what you're doing is what thousands of bible scholars are doing? There are also other churches who have the same view, who just interpret what they read in the bible without hearing a voice from above. Why don't you consider those other ones as also spirit directed?

Most importantly, why do you consider yourself as God's channel? Why is it that if not your religion, others are false? Does that description match one who claim to be just following what he reads in the bible or does it not make one God's voice on the earth? If you claim to be that God's exclusive voice, then you're God's prophet on earth. If you failed, it means that the God who is directjng you though His spirit, as you claim is false god. He keeps pushing you to error and more errors.

When we read the bible, we don't see any such case in the bible, where God's exclusive organization is full of scriptural misunderstanding to these incomparable proportion. No single Christian church has committed the amount of errors and doctrinal switching as done by Jehovah's witnesses. How will anyone ever conclude from reading the Bible that God is using such an organization? Does their experience not match what we have been warned at 2 tim 3:6,7, 13?

"From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

Every weekly meeting is described as "Study".

So, if they were just bible students, we can say they are folks who gather to study the bible. No one will call you out for any wrong misunderstanding, but the claim of the organization is huge. God's ONLY channel, His organization, the Only true religion, the Only Faithful Slave God is using. As such, you represent God, in fact you say that you are the only one on earth representing God. That makes you God's Prophet. You are his channel. The point is, from what you really are, folks studying God's word, you shouldn't be called inspired prophets. You should be called bible students. But your other claim takes you to a different level, it makes you inspired prophets. If you remove religious entity from your designation, no one will call you a prophet.

And what does "God's channel" tell us about what God will do in the future? 1874 switch 1914 switch 1925 switch 1975 and many more. Please compare that with what you read in the bible and tell me if this organization resembles God's people in Bible times. So if they don't match God's people in Bible times, then the organization is false.

MaxInDHouse:
There you go deceiving yourself!

Neither John the baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, first century Apostles or Governing Body fixed any date it's all about sense of urgency misconstrued by many as fixed date.

But if you don't agree please quote any of the publications of the Watchtower where a date is fixed e.g 18/12/2024 that any publication of Watchtower mentioned apart from anticipation like first century Jewish disciples of Christ!

I don't think that in English the phrase "fixed date" must be a fixed day. A fixed date can mean a fixed year or month. From your escapee reply, I want to believe that you agree that the apostles never set any date for the kingdom to come.

paxonel:
There is no such prophet!

And by the way, what do you need that kind of a prophet for, you are more important to your life than prophecies and spiritual entertainments

Lol. They are rare, but some have had such reputation in the past.

As I progress in my scriptural studies, I am beginning to see that what is unfailing prophecy might not be what I think. What I think is a failed prophecy might in fact have fulfilled differently.

MaxInDHouse:
John the baptist QUESTIONED Jesus' credentials because Jesus didn't rescue him as he thought. Matthew 11:2-3


That's to show you i'm making my own personal research apart from what Watchtower says. Are you now convinced that it's not just whatever Watchtower says?


So his disciples also got confused based on the fixed date they all had in mind after confirming he is the Messiah they thought the Kingdom will come immediately after his resurrection! Act 1:6


I never said it's about John the baptist i specifically mentioned John the apostle and the RUMOUR went round among BELIEVERS that John will not die until Jesus return {John 21:21-23} abeg when Jesus returns what exactly will happen according to beliefs of faithful and loyal disciples of Christ?



So how come such sense of urgency never meant John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth who caused it weren't termed FALSE PROPHETS as you're now saying about Jehovah's Witnesses?
Is it not the same sense of urgency they created in the minds of faithful people back then?



Guy stop lying to yourself!

High sense of urgency means FIX DATING since believer can never think it will take more than a century before God's Kingdom comes the way John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth delivered their message! Matthew 3:2; 4:17

Nawa o. Oga if there is a fixed date, which date is that? In the case of JWs, we know the date they fixed. So which date did John and Jesus disciples fix?

MaxInDHouse:
Guy only the Governing Body qualifies to be anointed of God all others rely on miracles as that's what their followers are looking for!

Oga, you have not answered me. So you do not understand the sentence? if you now understand it, you should be apologizing for your misguided attack on me. And not switching to something else I never brought up.

MaxInDHouse:
John the baptist had such a FIXED DATE in mind though he never mentioned it that's why he questioned Jesus' credentials when Jesus didn't come to rescue him in prison yet John believed the end of badness is here after baptizing Jesus! Matthew 11:2-3


Many first century Christians also had such a FIXED DATE in mind when Jesus told Peter saying:

“If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” John 21:22

The rumor went round among first century Jewish disciples of Christ that Jesus will come back to establish God's Kingdom before the death of apostle John! John 21:21-23


They had such a FIXED DATE in mind though they never mentioned it that's why they asked him if God's Kingdom will be given to Israel immediately after Jesus' resurrection! Act 1:6

So if it's a crime to anticipate a FIXED DATE in mind for the end of badness then John the baptist and Jesus' disciples are guilty!

John had a fixed date, though he never said it. How then do you know if he never said it?

I think you should be researching the publications before you comment. You're making errors that even Watchtower can not make.

It is true that Jews, including Jesus disciples thought that Messiahs coming will usher in the kingdom. That was the belief probably as taught by the Rabbis.

Actually the Messiah will usher in the kingdom according to the prophecy at Isaiah 9. But when he will do so no one knows. They didn't have any fixed date. It was just expectation just as we do have today about God's kingdom.

Secondly, John 21 is not about John the Baptist. It's about apostle John, the writer. Even that is not a fixed date. Who knows when John will die?

In summary, there was a high sense of urgency and expectation at the time, but they didn't have any fixed date when the kingdom will come. And all there expectation was not by calculating dates and fixing when the kingdom will come, it was just a normal human curiosity. JWs fixing dates was not a sense of urgency, but misinterpretations of the scriptures.


But they never had any fixed date in mind. There was a high sense of urgency during that time because of how they understand the law and prophets.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted shows you're just deceiving yourself all this while claiming you have studied the Bible with holy Spirit.

If anointed of God could only be known through miraculous works why did Jesus say it's not the criterium? Matthew 7:21-23

Why did Jesus say false prophets will perform miracles that may confuse the REAL anointed? Matthew 24:24

Is it possible for a maker of counterfeit money to produce naira notes that will confuse those in charge of printing real money?
Shouldn't the printer of real money know all its features so that he could recognize it anywhere?

Guy you don't know anything better go back to the Kingdom Hall and humbly accept a Bible study from Jehovah's Witnesses, tell them how you've missed your route on the spiritual journey!

Don't tell me you don't understand that sentence. The sentence says opposite of what youre attacking. Check it once more.

gisevak:
Christians and their likes, could Jesus' birthday on December 25th be more than just tradition? What historical evidence supports this timing?

A second view suggests that December 25 became the date of Jesus’ birth by a priori reasoning that identified the spring equinox as the date of the creation of the world and the fourth day of creation, when the light was created, as the day of Jesus’ conception (i.e., March 25). December 25, nine months later, then became the date of Jesus’ birth. For a long time the celebration of Jesus’ birth was observed in conjunction with his baptism, celebrated January 6."

That is the plausible origin of the date.

pinkylovely:
EXACTLY! You've said it all. It is said that higher education is a personal decision yet every blessed moment (in videos, literatures, in conventions, kingdom hall), the idea of higher education is heavily discouraged.

Sad. Just sad.

Don't mind them, if you have the opportunity enroll and get your degree. The people who tell you not to go to university do ask elders if they know any brother or sister who is a doctor, estate manager etc. Was Rolf Furuli not a professor while helping the watchtower write publications and make research for them? Was he not a high ranking member before he left? Was James Penton not a professor who wrote some amazing awake articles before he left? Don't mind those hypocrites. Are their lawyers not graduates?

pinkylovely:
Some days I just want to vent. Other days, I really just want someone who understands to hear me out without tagging me an apostate.

As a JW, over time, I've questioned some of the denomination's doctrines. E.g abstinence from blood transfusion even in life threatening situations, 144,000, marrying only in the denomination...etc.

It's sad that when I genuinely seek to find answers about why certain things are the way they are in the denomination, I end up getting bashed.

Sometimes, I wish my heart just never started questioning things. Maybe I'll still be wallowing in my naivety and agreeing to every single thing the denomination tells us to do. But no matter how hard I try to just ignore what I feel, I still have questions. Lots of 'em.

So, my only option? Bottle up how I feel even it deeply hurts and pretend everything is fine. Yet, every day. Every blessed day, I feel like I'm fading away.

Was just wondering if there are other Nigerian PIMOs in here?

You can always drop your comments. Maybe vent it out as well and let's all connect.

Yes. You have a PIMO here.

I can understand how you feel. Cognitive dissonance is real. But don't drop questioning things that doesn't line up with scriptures.

If you check my profile, you will see me discuss the unscripturalness of these teachings.

MaxInDHouse:
"Repent for God's Kingdom is at hand"


John the baptist, Jesus of Nazareth and his first century Jewish disciples said this over 2,000 years ago yet nothing happened till today.

So does that makes John the baptist and Jesus of Nazareth false prophets?

So you think that fixing a definite date the kingdom will come is the same as having a sense of urgency?

Courz:
Very True. Never get baptised! That's the trick to escaping JW. If you get baptised, you are finished! Many people did this and ended up lucky enough so they could leave JW with ease.

The Indoctrination starts from the Bible study JWs conduct with the public when they go preaching. I didn't understand this until I left JW. JW Leaders carefully planned everything they do to be an Indoctrination/Brainwashing exercise. I have come across many people who refuse to even engage with JWS because they are aware the preaching alone is a Brainwashing technique. JW Leaders know this., that's why they are always forcing all JWs to attend meetings regularly so the Brainwashing can be effective for many years till a JW dies.

This is why people like us are here to educate the Public on this so they don't fall prey.

Very true. It hard to notice that the whole home bible study with bible students was brainwashing technique. They make it seem as if they are loving you by providing free home study. It is meant to brainwash you from what you previously believe then introduce their error. And this study is done with people who know nothing about theology nor the reason for their church's theological position.

None of those are scriptural, it is a brainwashing move. Think about it, did Jesus not Paul ever go to people's home to conduct hime bible studies every week, for years? What they do, is it not to preach publicly, if you accept, you get BAPTIZED immediately, then you then join a nearby home meeting where you worship with others who have believed? Today, it would be like, preach, then invite those who believe to a nearby church. Simple. Nothing like coming to someone's house with a prearranged study book to keep brainwashing you each week for years. This is a Governing body technique. It has nothing to do with the bible. The Return Visit Paul did was to go and revisit the home congregations he established as he preached from each city. It was not to homes to continue studying and studying. They aim to make you disbelieve what you believed before and then chose them. This Governing body guys are smart I tell you.

Courz:
This thread will highlight the dangers of being a Jehovah's Witness. Some of you out there are already aware. But there are some who don't know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses. All you know is what they present to you. So, this thread will serve as a resource for people who must have encountered JWs or have been/are being preached to in order to be converted to the religion.

JWs look harmless and present an image of religious piety. Some of them are honest and simple people while there are others who are the opposite but these ones hide under that image to make themselves look good. The image a JW presents to you is a carefully crafted image made solely to Lure people in. People who only look at image will be greatly Deceived. But people who have spiritual discernment will look beyond the Physical and focus on their doctrines and how the doctrines affect their lives. So, the dangers of being a Jehovah's Witness is heavily tied to their Doctrines and what the doctrines do for them physically, Psychologically and Spiritually.

As an EXJW who has done a very deep investigation on the JW religion, I will point out the implications of being a Jehovah's Witness and I will be very honest about it. The implications will never be revealed to you if you are someone they are studying with to bring you into the religion. As someone who was born into it, there are a lot of things I didn't even Know until I got to the age of maturity enough to understand them. So, here are the dangers/implications of being a Jehovah's Witness.

1) You will be isolated from your loved ones that are not Jehovah's witnesses. In the Kingdom Hall, you will be encouraged to only mingle with fellow JWs. You will be told that everyone who is not a JW is Worldly, they are past of Satan's world and will be destroyed at Armageddon. So, you shouldn't have close relationships with them. They will say they are better friends than anyone you will get outside JW. You will hear this phrase a lot amongst them, The Worst JW is far better than a Worldly. In the beginning, while mingling with JWs, you will be presented with a picture of a Loving environment. You will experience what we call Love bombing. They will be so nice to you. After you have gotten baptised and they have gotten used to you, you will start to see their flaws. You will start to see many Cliques that you may struggle to fit in.

The JW religion doesn't promote autonomy of personality. You are supposed to behave like they do, talk like they do and think like they do. If you are very good at blending with their kind, you will blend well. But if your personality is authentic and you just cannot behave like a Robot, you will struggle in this religion. So, at some point, it can be lonely if you choose to listen to them when they say you cannot mingle with others that are not JW. You may even have just few friends in JW because of this. There are many EXJWs who admitted that they had a very hard time having friends in JW because of the Cliques.

The isolation the religion brings to your life will depend on how serious you take it. If you choose to be like me who never listened to this Isolation doctrine and went ahead to have friends who are not JWs, you will not feel isolated when you choose to Leave the religion. The isolation becomes worse if you have family that are JWs and you depend on them one way or the other. If you choose to leave, your family will avoid you as their doctrine demands.

You want to join JWs, pay attention to the bolded parts. It is better you don't baptize, cos if you do baptize and the above is true, you will suffer the most. You may even attempt suicide. Don't ever make that mistake. If you like them, just be there friends and NEVER baptized. But if they have gotten you indoctrinated, sorry, you will feel this advise is from apostates, not until you decide you want to leave.

But courz it is hard for a new person to know this. Very very hard. The indoctrination is too strong and well thought out.

gohf:
Miss which point, you skip what God and Jesus says to write down your own logic and you fail to realise your own logic fails you. If God is above heaven and earth and everything or all power in heaven and earth is given to Jesus how does he equate to the one who is above all?

Giving honor to the governor is based on understanding he is the governor but you do then call him the president and give him presidential honor?

Don't forget that the given authority is during Jesus incarnation. People do miss the fact that Jesus performed two functions, one as human for the salvation of man, and one in his Divinity. During Jesus Christophany, as we see in the Old Testament, Jesus doesn't come at that time as if he was given authority by God. He came as God intoto. Consider his appearance to Adam and his wife. Did you see Jesus then saying, God told me to tell you? He came as God. Even Jehovah's witnesses acknowledged that Jesus may have been the one appearing then.

I think Jesus Redemptive role is what people mistake and I see why many see it that way, I saw it so before.

If we read the praise given to Jehovah at Isaiah 6:1-3, we will think the person on the throne is God the father right? But John 12:41 tells us that Jesus was the one there. So don't confuse Jesus Redemptive role with his Divinity.

gohf:
"
Exodus 20 God spoke, He YHVH is God and there is none like Him nor should we have any besides Him.
Was He lying?

Jesus is evidently the one who made that statement. But that is another topic.

I agree we are not to have another besides God, however, there are many places where Jesus is worshipped, even in his christophanic appearances in the OT. What Trinity teaching is doing is to bring a summary of whom God is so as not to ignore other scriptures that presents someone else who is worshipped. Let me give one example of what I mean.

Now, the scripture you quoted above shows we shouldn't worship another God, but notice what happened at Josh 5:14-15. Pls read it.

First, do you agree that the Prince of Jehovah's Army is Jesus? If yes, do you agree he was worshipped there? Additionally, check rev 5:8-14. Do you agree Jesus is worshipped there as Jehovah is?

So which way can you have another Deity besides Jehovah? Don't you think that seeing them as having one essence help dispel any contradictions?

John 1:3 like I said, it still didn't call him the creator but the means by which the creator made what was made. For example I can't send you this message without a phone, network, data, technology etc. I used this to reach out, do you understand

Perhaps you didn't mean to make Jesus inanimate, but the analogy seem to suggest that. What I think you mean is that Jesus was just an Agent through which God made things, as such, God is the creator and not Jesus.

I used to see it that way before, but I saw one scripture that challenged that. Let's see Heb 1:10-12

And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.”

Here we see Jesus clearly praised as the creator. All creation are the work of Jesus hands.

This verse is taken from Psalm 102:25-27. A place used to praise God for his creations. Here Paul is saying that Jesus was in fact the person being praised there for creation.

Will you not agree that if Jesus was just an agent and nothing more like me and you are as we preach the goodness, he will not need to be praised for what he did as an Agent? Notice the final words;

"and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end."

This verse can only refer to God. God is the only one who is immutable. Also confirm from Heb 13:8. Only God can have that description.

What Trinity is saying is that this unique nature possess by God the Father is shared by both the Son and the Spirit. For me, this reconciles many scriptures attributing the Father's unique characteristics to others.

so you do understand and by the way the subject here isn't the divinity of Jesus but if he is God. Of course there is only one God and then only one mediator and son, Jesus Christ

At times the bible uses the word God in reference to God the Father, in some cases to the Son or the Holy Spirit. These three have God being used for them in a unique way as to the Supreme Deity. So if there were no place what is unique to God is assigned to others, I don't think we will be having this conversation now. But there are, and you have to reconcile it.

What exactly did I write or quote, anyway I am certain I wrote and you read that Jesus is at the right hand of God and not that Jesus is God.

Saying that because Jesus did what God can do makes him God is like saying everyone from Moses to Elijah is God. Do not forget to read verse two that it is God who appointed Jesus to that very position and not Jesus himself

Jesus was not appointed to be the exact FACSIMILE of His very BEING. Maybe you might need to see the force of that Greek word. This means that all the unique attribute of God is the exact same Jesus has. This is not the same as creatures have. We still see a similar phrasing at Phil 2. God's FORM. check that in Greek as well.

There is no way to escape Jesus nature as being same with God the Father. This is what the scripture says, not trinitarians.

God the Father occupies a headship role in the divine council. So almost all things are credited to Him, I think this made us think that He is the only one involved. The incarnation brought more revelation to us that in fact Jesus was sharing in all the glory given to God the Father when in heaven. (John 17:5)
Gen 1:26 gave us a hint that only one person is not involved, but it wasnt clearly revealed then.

Being at God's right hand or receiving authority from Him doesn't change his nature. It only shows that God the Father as the head is credited with assigning roles and authority. It also shows that humility rules even within the divine council. It doesn't diminish the nature. Jesus subjects to the father as well. Scholars call this functions or roles within the divine council.

Consider this, people have grieved God before and was forgiven, but if you grieve the Holy Spirit, you won't be forgiven. That doesn't mean the Spirit is greater than God the Father, but it is the role the Spirit occupies that make him have that authority.

MightySparrow:
Any honest readers of the Bible would know that to deny the deity of Jesus is not easy. A lot of panel eating would be required to do that.

Anyway any false claims will require false evidences.
I am particularly not interested in the NWT of Jehovah's Witnesses for the fact it is too parochial and the writers identity and proficiency in Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew languages is not known.

Peter said, angels desired to look into the agenda of salvation, they were not allowed. Jehovah's Witnesses say, the programme of salvation is championed by Angel Michael.


However, I must commend the JW's for making many Christians to read and study the Bible. I think Dr. Damina is also shaking the table and sending people to their Bibles.

Yes. Abel Damina is doing a great work. Perhaps God wants to use him to shake His church. Not that all he says is true, but many have lost interest in the bible and are more interested in money.

olola4:
After embarrassing them…so you don't even have any evidence against them and the church has already dismissed them based on allegations from a faceless blog…SMH

The dismissal is temporary until investigation is concluded.

Rev 22:6 says
6 He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. 7 Look! [b]I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll."(NWT)

Note: the word "Jehovah" was inserted by New World Translation committee. Check the interlinear to confirm.

Two line of evidence pointing to Jesus are:

1. The person that sent his Angel to declare the message to his slaves is Jesus, not Jehovah. Read Rev 1:1.

2. The phrase "I am coming QUICKLY" is consistently attributed to Jesus in the book of Revelation, not Jehovah. (Read rev 2:16; 3:11; 22:20)

Let's start with the first point.

Rev 1:1 says in part:
A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he (Jesus) sent his angel..."

Rev 22:16 add more proof.

16 “‘I, JESUS, sent my angel to bear witness to you...

So we see that even from the context of Revelation 22, Jesus is the one that sent his Angel.

What about the second point, "I am coming QUICKLY"?

From Revelation chapter 22 also, and even the whole revelation book, that phrase is used for Jesus.

However, chapter 22 identified who is coming quickly. Who? Verse 29 answers:

20 “The one who bears witness of these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’” “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.”

Therefore, Revelation chapter 22 contextually identifies Jesus as God, and also Alpha and Omega. (Verse 12, 13)

Next time, I will discuss Alpha and Omega in the book of revelation.

Tags: achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan, Dtruthspeaker

gohf:
almost forgot this post exists, saw it the day I was so busy

I know someone may have been led by God to respond to you but incase why not read verse 15 before verse 17

Col.1.15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (KJV)

Jesus being the first creation of God isn't God Himself the creator of all who used him to make others

Firstborn doesn't mean first creature, try reading verse 16. It helps show why he is called the firstborn. It gives the reason when it says "because by him are all things made".

Secondly, seeing Jesus as a creature goes against John 1:3 which unambiguously says that "apart from him not EVEN ONE thing was made". That is totally unambiguous.

Heb.1.2 But now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he made the universe and everything in it. (NLT)
Heb.1.3 The Son reflects God's own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven

Jesus being used by God to create things doesn't affect his divinity. That is if you understand the subject.

From what you quoted on Heb 1:3, you see clearly that Jesus is the exact representation of His very BEING. the point of Trinity is exactly that, Jesus is of the same essence as God the Father. Sustaining the all things by the word of His power can only be work done by the Almighty for that would mean sustaining even all creatures, angels, humans, universe etc. A creature cannot do this.

Is Jesus undermined by being called son of God and not God? Do you think he is that proud like the devil who wants to be who he is not?

I don't understand how this fit.

The power of a creature? The question is who gave the power.

The sun shines everyday how can the sun have so much power to illuminate all the earth, it was given so.

That scripture didn't say the power was given. He is already the exact representation of God's being. So He possess that power essentially.

cutecommend:
If you go to some Christian weddings, you may hear worldly songs during the reception. Some churches too may sing or change some worldly songs into Christian songs.. If someone corrects them, they may say "Christianity is in the heart, and on that day we go see who enter heaven" ..

The truth is that a Christian loving worldly songs is fake. You may speak in tongues, cry during worship etc. But if you love worldly music, you are fake or weak Christian..

I John 2:15 says "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him"

It is good reply will start from asking us, what is worldly song? By worldly, do you mean songs without any gospel theme? A song sang by one who doesn't attend church? Or a song that promote what God hates, in other words, if Flavour sing about wedding, that isn't worldly because it is not what God hates?

It is difficult to know what people mean by worldly song, even me get confused as to what that statement really means. It appears that what comes to our mind is a song sang by celebrity secular musicians. But such secular songs do sometimes take on gospel titles. My question before I reply is, what is a worldly song?

Janosky:

FACT:

Oga Sand2022, your ghost deity never gave Paul a conflicting info @ Colossians 2:9 & Hebrew 1:3.
Oga Sand2022, your interpretation of Colossians 2:9 & Hebrew 1:3 is very faulty,built on quicksand.

The Evidence is this:
Trinitarian Sand2022:
@ Colossians 2:9, "Jesus is fully God".

Trinitarian Bill Mounce:
@ Colossians 2:9, Jesus is NOT fully God "

Why is the same ghost deity invented in 381 AD confusing Sand2022 & Bill Mounce ,Greek Bible scholar?

Trinity is a FRAUDULENT doctrine invented by men.
"The Colossians (2v9) were taught that Jesus is NOT fully God,& this is the very reason for the caution against false philosophy" of men.

Oga Sand,Go and convince Bill Mounce, your fellow Trinitarian.
Nah your ghost deity give am the Intel conflicting with your claim about Hebrew 1:3 & Colossians 2:9.

You remember why I don't respond to your comments?

CAPTIVATOR:
The same way You and I doesn't know certain things all the time. It doesn't mean we choose not to know, it's just not in our authority to know. The Bible is clear that Only the Father has the authority to set TIME. That's the only person that can choose not to know something. He alone has that authority and jurisdiction. Jesus doesn't know, not that he choose not to know

You seem to miss out on the fact that when the Watchtower says God chose not to know the Sodomites, that was not what the Bible says. The bible says that God will go to find out if what he has heard about them is the way it is, I am paraphrasing here. And if it is true, the verse says "I will get to KNOW IT". So from the scriptural phrasing, one can also say that God do not know it until He came to investigate. That place didn't say "well, I decided not to know it or I chose not to know it."

So that Jesus says he doesn't know shouldn't make you to conclude that He cannot know. He didn't say I CANNOT know. He is the one who will destroy the world, mind you. How is it that he CANNOT know?

This is a dumb take though, God , angels , and Jesus all have the same essence. Essence means Nature or what someone is made of. God, Jesus and the angels in heaven are all Spirit beings, that's their essence. In fact the bible speak of Christina's has having the hope of Divine ( God's ) Nature at ressurection. Does that mean they have same authority as God to know time and seasons ?

While God and the angels are spirits, this doesn't mean they are the exact FACSIMILE of God's VERY BEING. heb 1:3. God is not a creature. So no creature can be described as having the EXACT Facsimile of his not very person, but very BEING.

The Bible tells us more as well. The bible says that ALL the FULLNESS of DIVINE Godhead (theotes) dwells in him.

As a JW, do you remember the often quoted ROM 1:20? I guess you do. Now in that verse, "Godship" is mentioned there in reference to God. Remember? Good. Now the word that appeared in that ROM 1:20 for "Godship", is the exact same Greek word that appeared for Jesus at Colosians were it is said that ALL the FULLNESS of the divine Godship dwell in him.

Now how can you run away from that strong scriptural evidence of Jesus being much like facsimile of Jehovah?

CAPTIVATOR:
Use your Brain, only someone produced by another is called " SON" .

The title Son already tell you he is created

If by produce, you mean created, you are contradicting a scripture there. All that was created, all, I mean, all came from Jesus. That is what John 1:3 says. So it is scripturally wrong to use the word create for Jesus.

Brenbentondiaz:
So, Jesus in Revelation was still in human form, right? For your own sake I hope it's either you are taking the piss, or you were feeling sleepy when you typed this response.

Ok. Where did I miss out.

encyclopediax:
If Jesussssssssss issssssssss God. Why did he ssssssit by the Right Hand of The Majesty on High ? Who issssssss the Majesssssty on High ?

While he is God, he is not the same person as God the Father. This has always been the misunderstanding among JWs. The Trinity holds that they are of the same nature. That is the major point.

If Jesus isssssss God why doesssssss He ssssay " Only the Father Knows when the World will End ? " Good Master.... " Why call me though good ? Non is Good but God ," Jesus is asking why ssssssomeone is calling Him good and Wants only God the Father to be called good

I have addressed this issue of not knowing when the end will come above. Jesus plays two roles. He restrained himself of many things while in the flesh. He emptied himself as recorded at Phil 2:5-6

With regards to Jesus saying God good. Well, I don't think you mean that Jesus is not good. Is that your point? Take note also that Jesus is the called the ONLY Potentate at 1tim 6. Is Jesus the only Sovereign?

for God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son ". We can see there are two different entities the Father who gave his Son . Jesus is The Messiah and Savior of The World. He is not God and does not need to be God to save the world. Adam was not God. Jesus is The New Adam to Restore mankind back to God.

I don't see how all that changes anything. By saying "different entities", it appears you hold to Modalism, that is what JWs preach against. They teach less about the core traditional teaching of Trinity. To the church teaching that the father and Jesus are the same entity is heresy. So I agree with you that such teaching is false

TemmyT002:
The word 'God' is a title, like Lord, Chief, President, etc.
Jesus is a God. Even we are gods

But Jesus is not Jehovah God.
He is the son of God who has all the characteristics of his father.
God cannot come down to die for the same people He created.

It is true that the word God can stand for title. Even humans and angels can bear that title.

However, some scriptures shows that Jesus Godship goes beyond title. I have a thread where I delt broadly on that. Would you want to check it?

Before then, how would you explain the worship given him at Rev 5:13-14?

MaxInDHouse:
Continue deceiving yourself!
Each church today has a founder recognized in the society so who is the founder of your church because only one church claims to be church of Satan all others are claiming church of Christ yet there is contradictions everywhere!

I am not into church name stuff, I am for Jesus. If you want to know the one I currently attend in person, you already know it - Jehovah's Witness.

Brenbentondiaz:
Revelations 3:12; "Him that overcome will I make a pillar in the Temple of My God..." He probably said that as a human when He was in heaven, right? Or you're saying Almighty God has a God?

He still speaking in terms of his human nature. Christ was raised in human body, though now glorified, notice that he still answers the root and offspring of David and the lamb of God in the book of Revelation. David was never his Father prior to his humanity. But he now operates on that cos of his humanity. But at the same time, the divine nature he also possess.

Jesus operates from two natures from the time he came on earth and upwards. Scholars call this a hypostatic Union.

MaxInDHouse:
Guy i have told you countless times not to mention me again until you tell me the name of your church and what your church teaches.
There are thousands of churches today and they are not teaching the same thing so if your church teaches one thing it's just another kind of teaching which sounds appealing to members.
So what is the name of your church and what is your church stand on the matter?

My church is Church of Christ aka the body of Christ which I am part of.

tareboy:
He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32

Yes, as a human he had some limitations. Notice that at Luke 2:52, he is said to be increasing in wisdom and physical stature. Jesus while in heaven had complete knowledge, but as a man, he had some limitations.

However, what's your thoughts about his sustaining ALL things. Does that sound like what a creature can do?