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Religion / Re: Study The Bible With Jehovah's Witnesses 2 by Sand2022: 8:31pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
Janosky: I don't know when you will learn. |
Religion / Re: 144000, Who Are They? by Sand2022: 8:29pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
Dtruthspeaker: May I ask what is wrong with that? |
Religion / Re: 144000, Who Are They? by Sand2022: 8:28pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
Dtruthspeaker: Not all the tribes of Israel are mentioned there. |
Religion / Re: 144000, Who Are They? by Sand2022: 8:25pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
Janosky: Fair question. Let's consider the timing for the great crowd. They are shown AFTER the Great Tribulation. If this GT refers to final consummation (which JW agree), it then means that John is still seeing this same 144000, but this time AFTER the Great Tribulation while verses 4-8 see the same group before the Great Tribulation. Your comment however, clearly shows the unlikelihood of the JWs understanding. Because as the great crowd is not sealed, according to JWs, then they will be harmed. That's why that understanding has an issue. Revelation 7:9-10 says not only 144,000 would be saved. If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved. |
Religion / Re: 144000, Who Are They? by Sand2022: 8:15pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
Dtruthspeaker: It is clear and some tribes of Israel are mentioned. However, to get the meaning, you would need to compare what else is said of that same group in another scripture. |
Religion / Re: 144000, Who Are They? by Sand2022: 7:56pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
Kobojunkiee: If you're saying that the 144000 are Israelites, and that these Israelites are the marked ones sent out to gather their brothers, Israelites. Hmm. Verse 18 says: 18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who escape to the nations—to Tarʹshish, Pul, and Lud, those who draw the bow, to Tuʹbal and Jaʹvan, and to the faraway islands—who have not heard a report about me or seen my glory; and they will proclaim my glory among the nations. From that verse, it is clear that those who get the message are people of the nations, not Jews. Am I missing something? Secondly, remember that those exempted from the "hurt" of Rev 9:4 are those having the mark only. Meaning that others get hurt. Our interpretation should therefore encompass all through christians as God can't smite His own faithful people right? From your understanding those whom the message is declared to as in verse 19, will be hurt. |
Religion / Re: Study The Bible With Jehovah's Witnesses 2 by Sand2022: 7:24pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
MaxInDHouse: Another error. The other sheep and Great crowd do not technically mean the same thing. |
Religion / Re: Study The Bible With Jehovah's Witnesses 2 by Sand2022: 7:21pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
MaxInDHouse: Like seriously? God is not omnipotent and omniscience? Before you come online to defend JWs, you should thoroughly know there teachings. |
Religion / 144000, Who Are They? by Sand2022: 7:04pm On Jan 19, 2023 |
The research I have done on this subject produced me with different understanding as to whom this group refers to. This post is not to mock any differing view, since the bible didn't explicitly provide the answer as to who this group is, one doesn't need to be dogmatic on this issue. scholars are divided as to the identity of this group. Some say it literally refers to the Jews while others say it refers to all genuine christians. Deeper Life sees this group as referring to Israelites at the time of the end. Jehovah's witnesses think the group literally are those going to heaven. They feel that the number started to be gathered from first century and would continue to the end of this world. There is a good reason to see this 144000 as referring to all true christians at the time of the end. First, the timing of the event. Rev 7:3 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. This shows that the event was still future, it will happen before the final destruction of this world. This shows that the 144000 will be available on earth close to the end of this age. So the understanding by JWs that the counting starts from the first century is wrong. 2. Execution of those not marked. This will help us put a meaning to whom this 144000 refers to. At Rev 9:4, we read: "And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads." Here shows that those to be spared are only those with the mark on their foreheads. This refers to the 144000 mentioned at Rev 7:3,4. This would mean that the 144000 are all true christians, because it would be unthinkable that only a literal 144000 would be spared from the wrath and the rest of the faithful christians punished. My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians during the period close to consummation of this age. |
Religion / Re: Was The Name Jehovah Removed From The New Testament? New Testament Manuscripts by Sand2022: 1:59pm On Jan 18, 2023 |
OLAADEGBU: This is the best rebuttal on Jehovah's name in the New Testament I have ever seen. I used to believe that the name should be there following the JW argument, but this site has changed that belief. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Jehovah's Witnesses And Babylon The Great by Sand2022: 9:57pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
"The following year, 1963, an enlarged application of “Babylon the Great” was presented.c (Rev. 17:5) A review of secular and religious history pointed to the conclusion that the influence of ancient Babylon had permeated not only Christendom but every part of the earth. Babylon the Great was thus seen to be the entire world empire of false religion. An awareness of this has enabled Jehovah’s Witnesses to help many more people, from diverse backgrounds, to respond to the Biblical command: “Get out of her, my people.”—Rev. 18:4." - Jv chapter 10. JWs see Babylon the Great of Rev 17,18 as the world empire of false religion. In other words all religions except the JWs are known to them to be among Babylon the Great. Pls my work here is not also to educate you and then disprove you. You should know your doctrine well. And be humble to be civil. You curse and then don't even know your doctrine. Nawa for you guy. 1 Like 1 Share |
Religion / Re: Jehovah's Witnesses And Babylon The Great by Sand2022: 9:50pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
Janosky: Are you sure you are really a Jehovah's Witness? So if someone asks you, what is Babylon the Great, you will start to answer that is an ancient literal city in Babylonian Empire? Inspite of your lack of knowledge you still insult? Seriously, you have a problem. No person should discuss with you about the witnesses because it is either you're not a witness or you didn't even study before you baptized or you studied but your teacher didn't do a good job or he did a good job but your head doesn't grasp points for long. 5 Likes |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 9:15pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
Janosky: This guy sef. Hmmm, and you think you just said something? 2 Likes |
Religion / Jehovah's Witnesses And Babylon The Great by Sand2022: 3:57pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
The witnesses say that Babylon the Great in the book of revelation stands for all false religions. In other words, all religion that is not Jehovah's witnesses are under the title Babylon the Great. They say these because the bible condemn Babylon for their spiritistic practices. However, see the clear meaning at Rev 17: 18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.” Simply put, it means the the Great City, but this city has a kingdom over the kings of the earth. It is not even a world empire as supposed by the witnesses. It is a city. It is possible that a city can have influence over other nations. Was it not what the ancient city of Babylon did? Mind you, Babylon was still standing as at this time John wrote this. How do you know if this verse is not about Babylon? There is admittedly differences of opinion here. Many scholars see this city as Rome. Some say it's Jerusalem. Iam not arguing for anyone. We can't be dogmatic. When arguing Rev 20;13-15, the witnesses usually says that Lake of fire means the second death because that is what the verse said, but they now came to Rev 17:18, they saw means, they gave it rather another meaning when the bible has already told us the meaning. If you want to teach another, no wahala, but don't just keep condemning other religions for your imperfect doctrine. You may just be wrong and you don't know. 4 Likes |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 3:43pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
achorladey: I wonder how Babylon the great start to mean all false religions. When the bible clearly says that, it means a great CITY. It is not even an empire, but a city. You see, I don't have any problem with people having different understanding. I don't even think these understanding can perfectly be known by any human completely unless God conveys it to him supernaturally. But condemning others on the basis of these imperfect understanding is my problem with them. And these have led them to judging themselves as a result. They once said that "Religion is an error and a racket". As of then, they didn't believe that Christianity is a religion. But now, they see themselves as a religion. Now tell me; have they not become an error and a racket? They also criticized excommunication when it was done by the Catholic church and called it a pagan doctrine. But now, they are now using that pagan doctrine, even chosing not to soften the sentence of the pagan doctrine. I keep asking, on what moral high ground could such a people condemn other religion? Do they not know that the same measure they measure out to others will be measured to them? Can't they just take it easy with others so as not to fall on top of their own judgment? I don't understand it. 2 Likes |
Religion / Re: Why Did God Need To Write The 10 Commandments by Sand2022: 2:06pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
lagerwhenindoubt: We always need someone to set laws for all. Think of it this way; would you think that it is pointless for Govt to set laws in a country? I mean, wouldn't everyone know what is right? Morality is objective, and not everyone sees eye to eye on what is morally ok. We need God to tell us what is right. There should be that Supreme Authority to make a moral decision for all. |
Career / Re: How Do People Survive On 30k Per Month Salary In Nigeria by Sand2022: 1:21pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
dorox: You tried to send me an email, right? |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 12:54pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
Templee333: What happened? Altho the so called anointing is another biblical misunderstanding by the GB. If you're a true christian, you are anointed and in line to partake of the emblem. 3 Likes |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 12:50pm On Dec 15, 2022 |
achorladey: My brother the thing tire me o. Wetin de want do with state bonus for religion when they say they are different? They are being supported by the wild beast of this world. It is not strange anyway as they also prostituted themselves with the UN in secret for about 10years before they were exposed. What I'm learning about this GB guys, especially after this UN case is that they do unimaginable things in secret and present a different front in public. Do you know the one that surprise me? They will still be judging other churches and sentencing them to eternal destruction when they are also guilty of the same crime. They tire me seriously. 3 Likes |
Religion / Re: Jws And Death Acquittal by Sand2022: 6:09pm On Dec 10, 2022 |
MaxInDHouse: Thanks for confirmation. |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 5:14pm On Dec 10, 2022 |
Templee333: Wow, seriously? You were anointed and ate that emblem? |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 5:12pm On Dec 10, 2022 |
achorladey: Jehovah's witnesses do not consider themselves as part of any mainstream religion. They don't class themselves amongst Christendom. They view their religion as the only true Christianity. Others, including Christendom is false and will be destroyed. They don't see themselves as among protestantism. But their beliefs is often misunderstood by majority of their followers. For example, JWs teachings when painstakenly analysed shows that they believe that millions of members of other religions in this our time can also be resurrected to their 1000 year reign of Christ. When analysed, even apostates could be among the "unrighteous" that would also be resurrected. Also that even those who had heard God's word in the past can also be among the unrighteous of John 5:28,29. Most of their members do not know this. Their Gov Body don't seem to make that point stand out. I don't know why. |
Religion / Re: Jws And Death Acquittal by Sand2022: 4:51pm On Dec 10, 2022 |
Janosky: This guy sef. Did you even read the bible portion? See what your publication says: " is different with the spirit-begotten brothers of Jesus Christ. Why? Because, as the apostle Paul explains: “Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also should likewise walk in a newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection; because we know that our old personality was impaled with him, that our sinful body might be made inactive, that we should no longer go on being slaves to sin. For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Rom. 6:3-7. These, then, have figuratively “died.” After they have the benefits of Christ’s sacrificial death for their sins applied to them, they are declared or ‘counted’ righteous. (Rom. 5:1, 18; 8:30) Their fleshly bodies, with their old personalities, are counted as impaled with Christ. They are then spiritually begotten by God, giving them hope of life in the spirit. (John 3:5- " Is this clear? You will argue it. Secondly, did you notice " counted righteous" and "spiritually begotten"?. It means that only these members of 144000 are considered sons of God. The benefit of the ransom is applied to them even now. But other witnesses are much like persons without sonship effect of the ransom applied to them. They will only get that benefit of the ransom after 1000 years as the JW understand Rev 20;5. That is also why only them eat the emblem because they are the only sons of God on earth. Learn to understand a comment and provide constructive criticism. I don't even know if you understand the teaching of the WT. It appears you newly learned the meaning of gibberish. Is this how you respond when you meet people at the doors? 1 Like |
Religion / Re: Jehovah's Witnesses' Inconsistent Interpretation by Sand2022: 4:04pm On Dec 10, 2022 |
Janosky: It's really had to get your logic bros. I just wish someone could explain what this guy is talking about. Did you really understand my point? 4 Likes |
Religion / Jehovah's Witnesses' Inconsistent Interpretation by Sand2022: 7:19pm On Dec 08, 2022 |
The Witnesses interpretation of Rev 20;5 is inconsistent. That too has led to other errors in their understanding. Let's see from verse 4 in the NWT. "And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection." The watchtower sees the "life" in that verse 5 to mean perfection, but the "life" in verse 4 as physical resurrection. They say that those in verse 4 are those of the 144000 who are in the grave. They will be resurrected as the verse 4 says, but now when they come to verse 5, they now said that "come to life" their means 'become perfect'. This interpretation then made them to say that billions that will be on earth will only be perfect after the 1000 year reign of Christ. That's how they see that Rev 20:5. However, notice that verse 5 is a continuation of the line of reasoning in verse 4. Following their logic, it will be wrong then, to say that the "rest of the dead did not come to life" mentioned in verse 5 means that they did not resurrect. Why? Because when you use the word "rest of" you are linking the second group to the first. In other words, if the first group coming to life means literal resurrection, then the rest that didn't come to life will mean that they were not resurrected. Simple. Eg. There are groups A, B, C. If you say that "Group A came to the park, but the rest of the group did not come to the park". You cannot give the word " park" different meaning. Giving it one meaning when it refers to group A and another meaning when it talks about the other groups. Right? If you mean that Group A literally came to the park, then it will mean that group B, and C did not literally come to the park. Otherwise, you're not being consistent. 2. Another inconsistency in the doctrine is that they see the dead at verse 4 as literally dead, but the dead in verse 5 as spiritually dead despite the linking phrase "rest of the". It is this doctrine that additionally contributed to their thinking that Christs ransom sacrifice that clears one of sin did not apply to any other person except the 144000. In other words, only 144000 are sons of God. Other JWs are not sons of God. One error leads to another... 4 Likes |
Religion / Jws And Death Acquittal by Sand2022: 6:32pm On Dec 08, 2022 |
JWs understanding of Rom 6:7 has led to more problems for their doctrine. As a saying goes... "One theological error leads to another". I do respect churches and their right to their own understanding. We all grow in learning. The JW say that since Rom 6:7 says that he who has died has been acquitted or freed from his sin, it means that when that one gets resurrected, God cannot judge him based on his past life. As such, John 5:28,29 can't be understood to mean that these persons will be judged based on their past life before resurrection. This has also lead them to another error that one of the scrolls mentioned at Rev 20:12-13 must be a teaching manual to instruct the resurrected persons during Christs 1000 year reign, so as to furnish God with another basis to judge people. There are still other scriptures that has been affected by this understanding. One error leads to another. First ROM 6:7 is not even contextually talking about physical death, but spiritual death. If you die to your former way of life, your sins has been acquitted, simple. They are rather inputting a secondary meaning to this scripture. Even if we were to look at it secondarily, will it rather not mean that when one dies eternally, he has fully paid for his sins? Yes because the wages of sin is death, but this death is obviously an eternal death, not a temporary death. When one dies, without any hope of resurrection, that is the full pay for his sins. Not when he dies and had to be resurrected for judgment. He has not fully paid for his sins. If after judgment, he is found guilty, he is killed eternally. That is his wages. |
Religion / Re: Are Jehovah Witness People Real Christians? by Sand2022: 6:04pm On Dec 08, 2022 |
They have no birthdays, don't believe in miracles, holy spirit, dresses like a cult, don't celebrate Christmas and refuse blood transfusion. They believe in holy spirit. But they say it is not a person. Their argument make sense on that. Don't celebrate Christmas. Well, there is a good argument on that, but I won't be judgmental on that point. Birthdays. I don't accept their point on this. It is a weak argument. Blood transfusion ban. Pure nonsense argument used in support of such a serious life decision. They should go back to the bible and restudy that subject. They can do better than what they are teaching now. Dress like cult. How? They are most decently dressed christians I've ever seen. Apart from bad eggs among them who are almost naked, as a group they are relatively well dressed. You can't compare them with any other church on that. Mormons are second. Of course God's kingdom is not about dress. They are Christians. As a group are they true Christians? Let God be the judge on that day. But as individuals, they try to be morally upright and as such, some can be saved there. Don't make the mistake of judging individuals based on church. Inasmuch as they have faith in Christ and accept his basic principles, don't judge. The JW are good in judging people based on doctrines. That's how they understand their bible. But it is very wrong to judge people based on doctrine. unless you have a supernatural revelation of that doctrine, don't think that your understanding of a scripture is perfect. You may be wrong even when it sounds so logical. Some understanding are obviously left for human intellect to decode, but not all. Judging people based on their own bible understanding, hmmm. I will say it is best to be open minded, but leave that judgment for God. Jws are christians with their own distinct Understanding of scripture. Contrary to what they believe, God can still accept other people with a different bible understanding. No one group has monopoly over truth. |
Religion / Re: Why Jehovah Witnesses Reject Blood Transfusion But God Created Eve Used Adam Rib by Sand2022: 3:42pm On Nov 24, 2022 |
MaxInDHouse: Like! |
Religion / Re: Miracles From GCK — Glorious Transformation by Sand2022: 6:53pm On Nov 19, 2022 |
OLAADEGBU: Has there been any independent assessment of these miracles? |
Religion / Re: Why Jehovah Witnesses Reject Blood Transfusion But God Created Eve Used Adam Rib by Sand2022: 6:46pm On Nov 19, 2022 |
MaxInDHouse: While I agree that God is against eating blood, it however, didn't comment on blood transfusion. Don't you think since the bible is silent, that issue should be left for conscience? I mean the bible principle you quoted didn't comment on blood transfusion. That command is only limiting dietary eating of blood, right? 1 Like |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 6:17pm On Nov 19, 2022 |
Janosky: Who said he is in heaven? Sorry, discussing with you will be very difficult. |
Religion / Re: My Experience With The Jehovah's Witnesses Organization by Sand2022: 6:15pm On Nov 19, 2022 |
Janosky: Hmm even when my comment was to support your doctrine, you can't even comprehend that. How can I then discuss with you? |
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