₦airaland Forum

CAPTIVATOR:
It only means Jesus doesn't know all things

I want to ask you. When God told Abram to go sacrifice his son to test his obedience, does it mean God doesn't know all things? When God went to check whether Sodom had done according to the complaint He hears about them, does it mean God didn't know whether the allegation against Sodom was prior to that time? So technically God doesn't know all things?

The organization teach that God didn't know that Adam will rebel when he created Adam. Isn't that true? So God technically doesn't know all things according to the organization right?

gohf:
Unlike the topic which suggests the divinity of Christ Jesus, the content spells it out that Jesus is God not that Jesus is divine.

INTRODUCTION: While it may be difficult for some people to believe or accept the fact that Jesus is God, the evidence cannot be denied. Being in the form of God and equal with God (Philippians 2:6), He performed diverse miracles and demonstrated that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

We see a clear focus on equating Jesus to God the Father, memory verse of the Sunday school: “But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” – John 10:38 (KJV)

The question now is does the Father being in Jesus and Jesus being in the Father make Jesus God?
Is there really an understanding of what it means for two to abide in each other?
Another question, does abiding in Jesus Christ and Christ abiding in me, make me Jesus Christ? Does it make you equal to Jesus Christ? Even in John 15:4 where Jesus says we should abide in him and He in us, he doesn't equate the branch to the vine nor the vine to the vinedresser.

Is this a mistake by RCCG or a belief system that is the root of the church. Isn't the foundation of the church the revelation that Jesus is Christ, the son of the living God?

Now does the bible text show or agree in anyway the suggestion that Jesus is God

BIBLE PASSAGE: John 14:6-11 (KJV) (RCCG Sunday School Student Manual 15 September 2024)

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.


Jesus doesn't call himself God neither does he call himself the Father. Jesus calls himself the way to God and not God

When you read the verses up to verse 10, Jesus should then have said, "believeth thou not that I am the Father?" No, but what John recorded that Jesus said was "believeth thou not that I am IN the Father, and the Father IN me... Father dwells in me and does the works."

As believers, born again, baptized in the Holy Spirit we reveal Christ who is in us by thr works that we do for it is Christ who lives through us and does the works. Even if you say o, it's the Holy Spirit who dwells in you, doing the works. The main question is, are you Christ, are you the Holy Spirit? No

The Holy Spirit, Christ, who dwells in you, does it not dwell in others as well? Yes
Does the fact that Christ is in someone mean that Jesus Christ isn't at the right hand of the Father? No

Do we realise that Jesus being in God and God being in Jesus does mean Jesus is God, it means Jesus is divine but not the God, creator of heavens and earth.

Philip asked, show us the Father. Has anyone gone for evangelism and was asked, you say Jesus is alive okay show him to me. The proof that Jesus lives is that the works that occured thousands of years ago recorded in the gospels is occuring even in the present day. People get healed, miracles occur, demons get cast out, deliverance occur, the blind see, the lame work, the mad receive sanity, the dead are raised back to life.

But does that make the vessel the content? No, it doesn't. Does Jesus not being God and being the son of God undermine him? No it doesn't.
When we realize who Jesus is, we see who we are co-heirs with and then we properly understand our inheritance from the Father.


RCCG Sunday school: Many miracles were performed by Jesus as proof that He is God.

Does miracles that occur through men of God proof that they are Christ or that they are God?

RCCG Sunday school: No other religion can claim the resurrection of their founders.

Meaning the gospel is our way of life, it is the truth and not just a religion. What does that statement "no other religion" is RCCG a religion that believes Jesus is God? A religion with laws that must be practiced to make heaven for one's self. Is it still a wonder that according to them, those who don't pay tithe will go to hell. Is that what Jesus taught?

What about the finished work of Christ? Did Christ even humble himself to the Father?
Phil.2.6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, (NIV)
Phil.2.6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, (AMP)

Is rccg strictly KJV?
In greek it is "en morphe theou" meaning in the form of God and "ouch harpagmon hegesato to einai isa Theo" meaning "Not something to consider equal with the God."


Have something is translated and understood can affect your view and understanding of God.

Even a small error as such can bring about such conclusion as this
CONCLUSION: There is no controversy, Jesus Christ is God. Anyone who disagrees does it at his/her peril.

I don't understand the point. Can you explain what this post is about.

Are you against the Sunday school lesson? Where does the Sunday school material end and where does your comment start? What position are you taken, for or against the Sunday school material?

AntiChristian:
How is this explained by any of God in the Bible?

Three persons, one essence.

AntiChristian:
The concept of the Trinity—the Christian doctrine that defines God as one being in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—has been explained through various analogies and theological frameworks. Here’s a summary of some of the best ways it has been explained, along with the corresponding impediments to each explanation:

1.Water Analogy
Explanation: Water can exist in three states: liquid, ice, and steam. Each state is fundamentally water yet manifests differently.
Impediment: This analogy leans towards modalism, suggesting that God merely changes forms rather than existing simultaneously in three persons.

2.Triangular Analogy
Explanation: A triangle has three sides and is one shape. Each side represents a person of the Trinity, unified as one entity.
Impediment: This can imply that the persons of the Trinity are merely parts of a whole, which can lead to a misunderstanding of the distinctiveness and co-equality of the three persons.

3.Roles of a Person Analogy
Explanation: A person can be a parent, a child, and a sibling simultaneously, showcasing different roles while remaining one person.
Impediment: This analogy risks falling into partialism or modalism as well, blurring the lines of individual personhood within the Trinity.

4.Sun Analogy
Explanation: The sun represents the Father, its light represents the Son, and heat represents the Holy Spirit. All are aspects of the same source.
Impediment: This analogy can imply that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not fully divine as they are merely emanations from the Father.

5. Mathematical Analogy
Explanation: Using the equation 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, this analogy emphasizes the unity of the three persons in one essence.
Impediment: It can confuse those unfamiliar with advanced mathematics and may not effectively convey the relationship between the three persons. 1+1+1= 3 not 1.

6. The Egg Analogy
The egg analogy explains the Trinity using an egg's three parts: shell, egg white, and yolk, which together form one egg. It illustrates unity and distinction. However, it risks partialism, implying each part is only a portion of God, and oversimplifies the complex relationships among the three persons.

So what is the best way to explain trinity without embracing modalism, partialism or debasing God from what He is not?

I have not seen analogy without it's limitations.

But I think it's better to say 3 who's and one what.

achorladey:
I don't know even the essence of raising question on a thread he called stupid and was lamenting about being mentioned .

It is surely a contradiction.

Aemmyjah:
How many Gods then are there? 1 or 2?

Why is Jesus standing at the right hand of God
Why did Jesus tell his disciples that he was going to his God and his father?

Check my first post on this series. You seem to misunderstand Trinity Doctrine as I did for years.

Why does he not know about when the end will come but the father?

Human nature.

Why did he say he will ask the father to send the holy Spirit? Does God need any permission from anyone?
Why did he say he has come to do his will father's will

The Father of course has a higher function than the Son. The Father is his head. This doesn't affect the Trinity doctrine if you understand it.

As the Head the Father is credited with many things, even the things Jesus did himself. This doesn't change their shared nature and shared glory.

Another point is that Jesus was in the flesh. He was doing two things at the same time. Sometimes he responds from his human nature, at another he asserts who he is from his divine nature. For eg, he did say that God made them male and female in the book of Matthew. However, who actually did the creating? It was him. But at other times at John 17:5, he stated he shares glory with God at His side. That would be wrong had he been just a creature.

The head of the Woman is the Man
The head of the Man is the Christ
The head of the Christ is God

Is Jesus God?
Is Jesus equal to God?

Why should Jesus receive authority from the Father if he himself was God

Why should at the end of 1000 years subject himself to the Father if he were God

You need to read my first post on this series. You submission shows you don't understand Trinity teaching.

A wife subjecting to a wife doesn't change her nature from human to animal.

Courz:
Sand2022, I have a video to share with you. Remember, in your first Trinity thread, I mentioned a testimony of a young boy who had a vision of Heaven which was made possible by Jesus himself. Remember I said the boy said he noticed Jesus and God merging to be one being and separating afterwards. This man in this video also saw the same thing. I am posting this video because the Man explained the oneness of Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit by using what he saw in Heaven.

This Man suffered from Septic Shock while he was hospitalised for an ailment and he died for 90 minutes. While his body was on the hospital bed, His spirit was taken to Heaven. He met Jesus, he saw the Paradise of God as stated in the Bible and he was taken to the Throne Room which is a different realm where Almighty God sits on his throne.

Now, the Man said it was time for everyone there to approach God and tell him how much they love him and each of them were ushered by a Song sang by a very huge Angel. The Man said Jesus approached God by entering into him. In other words, they merged together to be one. Then people there started to sing praises to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As they are honouring the Father, they are also honouring the Son and the Holy Spirit at the same time. He said in Heaven, the three are One. No questions asked. He was eventually told by Jesus that he had to go back as it was not time to be there. So, he obeyed and went back to his body. The Man also said he saw God's face because he saw him smile at him and this was only possible because he was in Spirit form. This ties in with Revelation 22 Vs 4 that says God's people will be around His throne and in the midst of Jesus and they will see God's face. I have also watched anotherr testimony from a Man who said he was in the Throne room and he saw God's face as well.

You can start the video from Timestamp 27:50 to get some context and finish the video to get some insight about the Spirit bodies we possess. I felt I should share this video as it ties in with the Trinity.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJd1vybYPrM?si=SUCTJfjdqtoIZv7k

I was blessed by the video. Wow, Randy Kay is someone I also follow on YouTube. This insight into Jesus and the father, how Jesus entered inside the Father will explain why Jesus often say that he is inside the Father and the Father is in him. We have more to learn about this triune nature.

achorladey:
He does not understand leaving goes beyond the trinity belief.

While I got to start investigating that religious organization, my research led me to one serious conclusion that anyone who wants to leave or plan to leave that religious must ensure he is not married to one of Jehovah's Witnesses because

1. They could easily use the wife to blackmail the husband leaving.

2. The pressure of families connected with that marriage will be crazy

3. The threat to the person's family as a whole.

4. If your business is built around the families connected, brace up for collapse, if not total collapse.

Those your numbered points are true. You just get trapped by all that. The fact is, you may lose your family and friends if you leave. It is a sad reality but this is what I am preparing for before I throw in the towel cos my wife may leave and I will be alone. I don't pray it will be so, but I just need to prepare. This is in fact a control group and you don't expect anything less.

I will leave, Jesus didn't say it will be easy to follow him. So I am not surprised. But I just need to prepare before that. It will not be easy for me really. Jesus didn't say it would anyway.

Youareforgiven:
✝ 1 John 4:17

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world."

KJV Bible

As He is so are we... No difference whatsoever.

The Angels don't have the Holy name. They are spiritual creations of God but do not possess the very essence of God which is his Spirit.

We will be all this and more in our transformed state when Christ Jesus our Vine appears. Even now we can know the hearts of men through the Holy Spirit in us. ✝ John 16:13

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come."

KJV Bible
✝ 1 Corinthians 2:16

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

KJV Bible

We have the mind of God in Christ Jesus. We think the thought of God our Father. What He knows, we are able to know. You don't even know what is in store for those who are in Christ Jesus. It is glorious and mind blowing!!!

Of course this will be ours in the future, but do we conclude that we will all be worshiped as God is in the future?

Barristter07:
Divine Nature is God's nature. The word Divine mean " belonging to God " . Do you lack basic knowledge of English language?

You know the implication hence the desperate attempt to separate. Now more laughable is the "Gods form" . Form means how something or someone exist. What is God's form ? Joh. 4:24 . Spirit form.

Are there not millions of Angels with Gods form ?

Of course Divine nature is God's nature. Why? Because God is Spirit. That is not the point.

The point is the features of God's nature. God is uncreated, He is omniscient, he is immutable, He is a Deity. Although all angels are spirits, they don't have an uncreated body, they are not Deities, nor are they omniscient. Jesus is described as the exact representation of that Being. No other persons can come close to that.

It is the same with Jesus taken on a slaves form. That was flesh, but you can't say his flesh amd ours are the same. He is perfect and don't feel all that we feel like illness. So just as bodies are not just the same, so can we not say that God's being a spirit means that all spirits will be the same as Jehovah. No spirit is exact facsimile of Jehovah's nature as Jesus is. We the saints can't be like that.

When we use nature, we mean the exact same feature inherent in such a nature. No creature has the same facsimile nature as Jehovah. In fact it is not logical to say that a creature nature will be exact facsimile of an uncreated nature.

Kingsempires:
you see this one you failed it Wolfy why so you are trying to contradict

---

Isaiah 40:13

So you have an image of an angel not God


As for me na God image I get not angel

Reserve your energy for something else.

Youareforgiven:
It is the same nature... Those who have Holy Spirit in them have become partakers of the divine nature. If it is not the same nature then, we have not the Holy Spirit.

I would say so. No one can be exact facsimile of Jehovah. Jehovah's nature is uncreated.

The Angels have God's spirit, but they have created nature.

The only difference between we and Jesus Christ is that we were giving but Jesus was not giving. In truth, He is the giver.

I would not think that an uncreated nature can be passed on. Nor will I see how we will be omniscient, immutable and know the heart as God does.

Kingsempires:
now that you are a trinitarian attending Jw can change your believe anytime

It doesn't work that way. This research is mine. I didn't copy it. I've made it my own. However, I am open to change if there is scriptural proof.

Barristter07:
I agree with you that Jesus and his Father share the same nature. Here is the problem, as many as they which share this nature, ought to be included in this bracket

Before going further :

Nature means essence or substance.

" Through these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust. "

Therefore:

Do you ( Sand2022) by virtue of 2Pet 1:4, also agree that humans can become of the same essence and substance like the Divine one ?


Do you ( Sand2022) also therefore agree that this persons are in the same category and EQUAL to, the same as God, by virtue of having the same nature ?

This nature is not the same as Divine Nature that Christ shares with the Father. No. In Heb 1, Christ is said to be the exact facsimile of God's Being - Hypostasis. And we have also seen that Christ is worshipped as God is. Also remember that in the beginning the word WAS, not the Word "is". So Christ has been there before the beginning. John 1:3 says all things were created by Christ. Not even one thing came into being without him. So he is not created and has no beginning and end. Compare 1tim 6.

So the Divine Nature we are talking about here is the uncreated Nature of God. Phil 2 says Christ was in God's form before coming to earth. Only God possess this nature, so if Jesus possess it, he is God as such is worshipped. So it is no surprise that we see Jesus occupy what naturally should be Jehovah's and even to be worshipped. You don't dare give that to a mere creature. Check my Part 4 of this series.

The divine nature that 2Pet has in mind is that of Christ's glory. Christ was flesh when on earth and later got a glorified. That is what the anointed will get. They won't get what Christ is before his humanity. It's not even possible. See how the Insight comments on it:

Insight under Nature:

That this is a sharing with Christ in his glory as spirit persons, Peter shows in his first letter: “God . . . gave us a new birth [a·na·gen·neʹsas he·masʹ, “having generated us again”] to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.” (1Pe 1:3, 4)"

Janosky:
According to your friend Achorladey post:
The source of this “calm, low voice” may have been the same spirit who was used to deliver “Jehovah’s word” mentioned at 1 Kings 19:9. In verse 15, this spirit is referred to simply as “Jehovah.” We might be reminded of the spirit emissary whom Jehovah used to guide Israel in the wilderness and of whom God said: “My name is within him.” (Ex. 23:21) We cannot be dogmatic on this point, of course, but it is worth noting that in his prehuman existence, Jesus served as “the Word,” the special Spokesman to Jehovah’s servants.​—John 1:1.

Also,Is Judges chapter 6 verses 11-15,22-23, John 5:43 in your Bible?
Angels were sent to represent Jehovah God.

Oga, don't be LYING on this forum.

According to my friend? What you quoted, if I am not mistaken is an Excerpt from JW publication which he also quoted. How is that his opinion?

Kingsempires:
But sand2022 my question for you is ;

Is it true you are still attending jw ?

If you are still attending jw and you are a trinitarian my brother sorry to say this but that is hypocrite. If you agree with the trinity why are you still attending Jw

If I had not done my own research from the scriptures and if what I believe is what I have been taught by the Watchtower, I would agree that it is hypocritical.

However, attending meetings in a church that you do not agree with their theology is not approving their theology nor against the scriptures. More especially if there is another concern you have.

Jesus Christ is our exemplar. Although he didn't accept the theology of his time, he was always in the temple and synagogue. He obviously participated in all that was done there. That wasn't hypocritical.

After his death, we see Peter, John and even Paul attend meetings of the Jews conducted in the temple and the synagogue. That wasn't hypocritical. The worship of God is no longer attendance in a physical location. It is Spirit and truth. What will be hypocritical and what we can learn from Jesus is, while you attend, if at all needed, you still let them know that you do not agree with them on so and so. That is what Jesus did. They know his position of things, but his attendance doesn't affect his loyalty.

I have told them and officially resigned as an elder and a Regular Pioneer because I cannot in a clean conscience teach their doctrine either from the platform or door to door. So the elders know officially that I object to some teachings of JWs. I wanted to disassociate, but my wife almost died of grief. I pulled back, not for the religion, but for her health. So I saw from Jesus example that mere attendance is not the sin.

My bible studies does not support the idea that your church marks your salvation. It is your conduct and your heart towards your creator that matters. Most especially your love for God and your love for those around you counts the most and faith in Christ. God is not going to judge church, but individuals. So if you love God stand for the truth even if your religion is against it. That is what God will judge.

It doesn't matter if Jonathan was in Saul's house nor join him for war, what matters is that when he makes the wrong decision, Jonathan wont support that.

When the time is right for her, I will leave, but don't think that my leaving means that I will not ever attend a JW meeting as if when they pray to God, they pray to idols as JWs view other churches, I won't join them in such a obvious misunderstanding of God's word. I can attend the meeting when I want to but if I leave, I will concentrate more on churches than there. But I don't judge them as if no one there will ever be saved. No, most people there sincerely do not know that there view is wrong. They think is that truth. And don't think that God will be too cold to destroy them if, other things being equal, they miss getting some things right. Of course I am not God anyway, but I won't think so, for a scriptural reason. Eg Job.

I still know that JWs don't see other churches that way. Again, I don't follow wrong theology.

I advise people stop this church madness. Put your eyes on Christ, not church. Even if God has appointed a pastor, he is not master over your faith. He is God's tool to assist you. That church name.is not faith in Christ.

ichuka:
.

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature a God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature b of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

by becoming obedient to death—

even death on a cross!

9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place

and gave him the name that is above every name,

10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.Phillipians25-11

Verse 6 above proves Jesus equality with God.
Verse 7 says He took the position of a servant, meaning He took the position of a Son and God becomes the Father( they are titles). question is why the title Father and Son?
I believe it has to do with redemption or obedience.
I strongly believe before creation God perceived (or foreknowledge)the disobedience of created beings(angels and man).
And without obedience the universe cannot hold,so God has to find obedience in the universe when He creates it.

Hebrew5:8 says Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.
Meaning in the beginning God don't know how to obey, because there nothing to obey to.
So Jesus learnt obedience in the world.
I perceived that an agreement or arrangements was reach in the Godhead that Authority by the Father Has to be answered by Obedience in the Son.in so doing obedience was created in the universe.when Jesus said "it's finished" on the cross.meaning redemption has been accomplished by the creation of obedience.
The creation in genesis was completed on the cross of cavalry.

Interesting perspective.

achorladey:
@ Sand2022 what is your take on the below as it applies to your topic and the series so far?

Imitate their faith book page 107 paragraph 22........



That spirit called Jehovah is equally.......



That spirit is equally Archangel Michael.





Jehovah >>>>>>>>> Word of God >>>>>>>>>>>>>prehuman Jesus >>>>>>>>>>emissary God used to guide the Israelites in wilderness >>>>>>>>>>Archangel Michael

Comic aspect

Archangel Michael = Pope.

Yes the organization has long suspected that Jesus was that Jehovah that kept coming as the Nagel of Jehovah in the Old Testament.

However I know why I stopped at Josh 5 as evidence. There he appeared as the Commander of Jehovah's Army, and He was worshipped in a way that one cannot deny that this was in fact a worship. The command to remove his sandals changed the setting. This is no longer ordinary bow of respect. Joshua would have known that this is different had his initial bow been that of respect.

Proving The Deity of Christ with The New world Translation Bible.

From this my Trinity reconsidered series, we have seen the meaning of Trinity, seen how Jehovah and Jesus is of the same nature, this thread will deal with the proof that Jesus is worshipped. That is the Deity of Christ. All these will show that Jesus is of the same nature as God and should be honored as God is honored.

1. Jesus is receives worshipful praise:

In the last article, we explained 1Tim 6

16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.

At 1Pet 4:11, we see similar praise being given to Jehovah as well.

More such praise to Jesus:

2Pet 3
18 No, but go on growing in the undeserved kindness and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

In the last article I also showed that Jesus is being praised as a Creator at Psalm 102:25-27.

2. Jesus Lordship makes him Deity:

Jesus Lordship is not ordinary Sarah calling Abraham Lord. It is Lordship as our Master and Deity. See how this is shown in these verses.

Paul in discussing foreign Deities listed Jesus as Lord in the discussion at 1cor 8:4-6.

"Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (NWT)

Notice that the discussion is about foreign deities. These deities go by gods or lords. Example is Baal.

So Lord here is not just a title to ordinary humans but to deities. It is interesting that in such discussion, Paul added Jesus as our own Lord. This is a clear indication that Jesus is a Deity, who is of the same nature as God.

In addition to this in Phil 2, where the Lordship of Jesus is linked to Deity.

"so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

This scripture is a direct quote from Isaiah 45;23, a scripture that can only apply to Jehovah. Here Paul shows that Jesus shares the same privilege as Jehovah.

23 "... To Me (Jehovah) every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty."

At the end the verse says that the glory goes to God the Father. But in light of John 17:5, and even this verse shows that both father and Son shares the glory. They thus must be of the same nature. It would have been wrong for anyone who is not a Deity to get this scripture applied to them.

The JW leadership say that this is not a quotation from Isaiah 45. Yet the exact same phrase that occured at Romans 14:11 is said to be from Isaiah 45:23. Obviously the application Paul made to Jesus in Phil 2:10,11 is hard for them to accept. I must say I was also shocked to know that this was from Isaiah 45. In fact, there is even more shocking application made by Paul from the Old Testament. Let's move to Hebrews 1.

I did mention that of Heb 1:10 in my previous article, which was so shocking to me. There is more in that Heb 1. This time verse 6.

6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

Wow. All of the angels do obeisance (worship in other translations). The JW leadership translated Proskyneo here as obeisance. This Greek word can mean obeisance, bow, etc, but it can also mean worship. When JW leadership see this word occur for Christ, they always use the word obeisance, now etc instead of worship because they don't count Christ as Deity.

However, where this word occurs won't support obeisance. Why? These are Angels. Angels don't bow to their fellow Angels. Angelic bow is worship. We will see an example of this below. But for now, let's digest this Heb 1:6 a little.

Where is Paul getting this quote from?

The Study pane that appears at Heb 1:6 in JW library App says in part:

"Paul here quotes from the Greek Septuagint rendering of De 32:43 or Ps 97:7, or perhaps he combines thoughts from both scriptures. In the Septuagint, De 32:43 reads: “And let all of God’s sons do obeisance to him.” At Ps 97:7, the Septuagint reads: “Do obeisance to him [or “Bow down to him”], all his angels."

Ok, here is where it gets interesting. What this Study Pane is not telling you is that when it quotes Deut 32:43 (as it is in Septuagint), that chapter is dedicated to Jehovah, and the NWT translated it as "obeisance to him" . It should rather read "worship him". Because God's angels do not pay obeisance to Jehovah. They worship Jehovah. So when angels proskeneo Jehovah, it must mean worship of Jehovah. The NWT don't want to put it that way because they would be agreeing to the worship of Jesus, so they deny worship even to Jehovah himself from his Angels because they don't agree with the Deity of Christ. This is sad. This clear hatred for Jesus Deity makes me want to investigate this topic myself and I am seeing many areas they twisted their translation to cover the worship of Jesus.

Another scripture this verse Paul may be quoting here is Ps 97:7. It reads:

7 Let all those serving any carved image be put to shame, Those who boast about their worthless gods. Bow down to him, all you gods. (NWT)

Notice that the context here shows that the "bow down to him", must be worship. Because it negates what false god worshipers do, to what Angels are told to do. Note that the "gods" at the end of the verse are Angels. That being the case, Paul is saying that the person the Angels bow to in that Psalm 97:7 is Jesus. Since there is a contrast between false gods and true God (who Heb 1:6 points to Christ) in that chapter, this obviously proves Christ's deity.

So the books of Isaiah 45,23, Psalm 103:25-27; Deut 32:43; Psalms 97:7 that can only apply to Jehovah are applied to Jesus. If this doesn't show that they are of the same essence and are equally worshipped, I wonder what will

Because of how strong this argument is, one of the Jehovah's witness publication suggested that perhaps worship is give to Jehovah through Jesus. But Paul didn't say that. He clearly points to Jesus as the one who receives the worship. You will now start to appreciate why I reconsidered this topic.

4. Clear Evidence of Worship to Jesus:

As if all that is not enough, we see more evidence that Jesus is worshipped.

As Stephen was about to die, see what happened.

Acts 7
As they were stoning Stephen, he made this appeal: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, kneeling down, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this, he fell asleep in death."

Verse 59 is clearly a prayer to Jesus to receive his spirit. Does the bible not tell us that after we die, the spirit returns to God who made it? But now Stephen is showing through his prayer to Jesus that he, Jesus receives the spirit as well. You keep noticing that almost everything attributed to Jehovah is being done by Jesus as well. That Stephen prayed to Jesus is evident that the early Christians viewed Jesus as God. So when Thomas called him " My Lord and My God", he meant it that Jesus was indeed his God.

Verse 60, Stephen prayed and said 'Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them'. This is another example where the JW leadership shows hatred for Christ deity.

NWT claims that they only import "Jehovah" where there is a quotation from the Hebrew scriptures where the divine name occured. Well, here Stephen is not quoting any Hebrew scriptures. Yet they added "Jehovah" here. Check the JW Interlinear, you will see that what occured here is "Lord", not "Jehovah". The same Lord that occured in verse 59. So Stephen is also here praying to Jesus to forgive his killers. If you want to study Bible, don't use the New World Translation.

Does Jesus answer prayer? Listen as Jesus answers you.

John 14
13 Also, whatever you ask in my name, I will do this, so that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. 14 If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

You see things being credited to Jehovah being done by Jesus as well. A creature cannot do this friends. Jesus is God. But the Father occupies a higher role, but it is just that, a role. Nothing more. Perhaps why God revealed the Son was so that we also know that as we worship Him, He is not the only one receiving the glory.

Let's see more evidence.

4. The same worship given to Jehovah is the same given to Jesus.

Last but not the least is a worship given to Jesus in heaven. The JW leadership says that Proskyneo for Jesus can't be translated worship. Well, Rev 5 proves that to be false in a clear way.

Starting from chapter 5:8, Jesus worship started, we read:

"When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” 11 And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12 and they were saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb who was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all the things in them, saying: “To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.” 14 The four living creatures were saying: “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshipped."

Did you notice that every creature in heaven and on earth pertook of this praiseful worship of both Jesus and Jehovah? This shows that Jesus is not a creature. Can you imagine everyone both in heaven and on earth singing this praises and Jesus stood with Jehovah receiving this glory from everyone? Yet someone says that Jesus is just a creature like all of us? Like seriously? Will that not be tantamount to creature worship? And the context even exempted Jesus from being among the every creature here.

Then take note of the final verse, the four living creatures worshipped. Friends, that word there is Greek proskyneo. The same worship to God is given to Jesus also.

Let me state this finally. JWs believe that Jesus is possess a Divine Nature. But that his divine nature is simply spirit nature and nothing more. Well, the evidence I have has shown that Jesus is not a mere created Angel, but a Deity. His Godship is not a title like angels do have "God" as a title. Jesus is worshipped, and as such, a Deity.

These are links to my previous discussion on this topic of Trinity:

Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrine

Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691

Part 3
https://www.nairaland.com/8199011/part-3-jw-pimo-reconsiders#131747507

If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings.

https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topics


Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan, Dtruthspeaker

Emusan:
The best way I do use this to preach the gospel to them is by first asking this subtle question

Must I need to be a Jehovah Witness before I became believer?

Out of curiosity, some will answer outrightly No! But some will give an after thought answer Ye...... No!

The truth is, with that question, you have put them in a tight corner because no where in the scripture God command Christian to be His Witness rather the evidence throughout the scripture is that:

1. The Father Himself is a Witness to His Son
2. The Holy Spirit Himself is a Witness of the Son
3. The Apostles proclaim they are Witness of Jesus Christ
4. Jesus Himself commanded ALL HIS FOLLOWERS TO BE A WITNESS OF HIM not another person.

That is why, you see that the only scripture they can manipulate to back that claim up is from Old Testament which was never even about Jesus not to talk of His followers.

Wonderful piece

Janosky:
No Sir, not plausible.
The point is,
Why cherry picking John 1:3 when you examine Romans 11:35-36 & 1 Corinthians 8:6 as well as Hebrew 1:2 conflicting with your post?

Romans 11:35-35
“Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him (God ) and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen".

Oga, @ Romans 11:35-35, what came through the God his (Jesus) Father?

The other question:
Did Romans 11:35-36. 1 Corinthians 8:6 , Hebrew 1:2 agree with your claim about John 1:3?
Not at all.


Why cling to John 1:1-3 & Colossians 1:16, when Jesus has proven at Matthew 19:4-6, Matthew 11:25 as well as the apostles John (John 5:25-26, John 17:7, Rev 3:14) & Paul (Romans 11:35-36. 1 Corinthians 8:6 & Hebrew 1:2, Ephesians 3:14-15 & Genesis 1:27) proven that God his Father created ALL THINGS?

@Job 41:11 (copied in Romans 11:35-36), the heavens belong to Jehovah God.
@1 Corinthians 3:23, did Jesus Christ belong to Jehovah God?

E get why? Matthew 11:25.
Trinity in the mud. Wotowoto.

If another person ask this question, I promise to provide an answer, but for you, I don't think I understand your level of comprehension or that you deliberately chose to behave the way you do.

So far, we have discussed the meaning of Trinity in my earlier post, and the last post I made is why Jesus cannot be said to be a creature. The main point of that post was on John 1:3, that apart from him not even one thing was made. That shows that Jesus cannot be reckoned as a creature.

Today, we are still exploring why Jesus needs to be seen as of the same nature as the father. Let's start with Genesis.

Gen 1:26-27
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them

This scripture is significant to the topic. It is a scriptural fact that we are made in God's image, not the image of a creature. Here God is revealing something, that he is not the only one involved here. There is US. then in verse 27, the bible goes further to say that God went on to create man in HIS image. In verse 26, there is US, then in verse 27, there is God, singular. This is one proof that the one who had the same image as God here must be of the same essence or nature with God. There is no way to run away from that.

To further support the point of similar nature, see how Heb 1:3 puts it:

3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Notice, the exact representation of his very what? Being. Take note of that word. The Greek word used here for exact representation means a facsimile of something. It means that Christ is of the same Being of God. The word is hypostasis, meaning Substance or Essence. In other words the same Nature as God. When you hear the Trinity recitation of "God from God, very God of Very God", this verse is the key to that phrase. They mean that Christ is of God's Nature. That is why in my previous article, I said that perhaps God split Himself in two, and assign role of Son to the second Facsimile of Himself.

Creating us in his image means we are able to manifest His qualities. God cannot connect His uncreated image to someone who is created. If Jesus was a creature, it will be misleading for God to say that man was created in His image, it would rather be God's image and the image of another creature that he made man. God can say that the image is "Our Image" in reference to others, if those ones are of the same Nature as himself. Being of the same nature, we can then use singular and say, we are made in God's image.


2. Jesus is a Universal Sovereign:

We know that only God is the universal sovereign. That is also the belief of Jehovah's witnesses. However, scripture shows that Jesus is viewed as the SAME Universal Sovereign as the Father. Let's see Genesis once more.

Gen 3:
22 Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” (NWT)

This might not appear to be a great point, but you will see what a point it is when you realize the meaning of knowledge of good and bad as taught by the witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses agrees with the position mentioned in the Jerusalem Bible (1966).

In describing what this knowledge of good and bad means, see what the Insight says:

"This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride."

The teaching of JWs is that by eating of that fruit, Adam and Eve were like God to themselves. They are in effect saying that eating of that fruit is right, when the Universal Sovereign has decreed that it is wrong. That is an attack on the universal sovereign's exclusive right to determine what is right and what is wrong.

To make it simple, the phrase "knowing good and bad" means setting standard of right and wrong". And only God has that right.

Now notice that the same phrase occured at Gen 3:22, but there God is saying that he is not the only one who has the right to get standard of right and wrong. Interesting, right? See what it says:

"Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad."

This statement shows that Jesus also is a Universal Sovereign just as God is a universal sovereign. But because they are of the same essence, we don't have two universal sovereigns but one.

Another reason why Jesus is a universal sovereign.

Jesus is the king of Kings. Let's read 1 Tim 6

"to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen." (NWT) JWs view this verse as referring to Jesus.

Jesus Christ at Rev 17:14; 19:16 is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords. This is clearly pointing to the fact that he is a universal sovereign. The Governing Body will say that this is in reference to earthly kings, that Jesus is there king. Of course, but let's inquire, for servants of Jehovah, both in heaven and on earth, who is our king? Do Angels have another King other than Jehovah? So the only king for true worshipers is Jehovah. So to even call Jesus King of kings is to equate Him with the Sovereign of the Universe.

But notice another word used of Jesus in 1Tim 6:15, the "Only Potentate" . This word in Greek is dymastes, it stands for Ruler or Sovereign. He is here called the ONLY Potentate/Sovereign. By using the word ONLY, Jesus is identified as the Only Sovereign.

Notice again at the end of verse 16, Jesus is worshipped. It says:

"To him be honor and eternal might. Amen".

This is worshipful praise to Jesus.

Let's see another worship to Jesus.

3. Jesus is worshipped.

JWs teach that Jesus can be called a God, but that that God is just a title, not that he is worshipped. To prove Jesus Deity, let's start with the Old Testament.

Before Jericho was conquered, one unusual soldier appeared. Josh 5:14 reports:

"To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so."

JWs view this person to be Jesus. Notice verse 14, it says Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated. Many translations used "worship" to translate "prostrate". Of course bowing one's face to the ground doesn't always mean worship, but there is a reason to say that here, it is worship, and that NWT was being biased. Why? In verse 15, Jesus, who is the Prince of Jehovah's Army didn't stop him from bowing, he even told him to remove his sandals for where he was standing is a holy place. This means that Joshua's bowing has changed to the level of worship. He is like in the presence of God Himself or the Ark of the covenant.

Jesus is worshipped in Isaiah 6:1-3

At John 12: 41, John made a striking statement. We read:

41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory, and he spoke about him.

JWs agree that this glory refers to what Isaiah saw at Isaiah 6:1-3. We read:

"In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple. 2 Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two. 3 And one called to the other: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies. The whole earth is filled with his glory. "

JWs do not see this as a proof of Christ deity, because they say that there are more than one persons here whom Isaiah saw their glory. They say that Jesus is equally there alongside Jehovah in the throne. (John 17:5) They prove their point by saying that in verse 8 of this chapter 6, Jehovah said " Who shall I send, Who will go for US". So they reason that the word US there is the same as US we find in Gen 1:26; 3:22 in reference to Jesus. This doesn't match.

But friends, even if that were true, it doesn't still remove the fact that Jesus is here worshipped. Notice what was said of this person on the throne. By shouting holy Holy Holy is Jehovah", that is praise assigned to only Jehovah ( Rev 4:8 will convince you). Notice also that this is holiness to the superlative degree. The Insight on the Scriptures (a book produced by JWs) says of this holiness:

"Those in the heavens are shown declaring: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of armies,” attributing to him holiness, cleanness in the superlative degree."

So if they insist that Jesus was also included in what Isaiah saw on the throne, it shows that Jesus is indeed a Deity just as Jehovah is. Isn't that wonderful?. How can all the Angels sing this praise to Jesus, if he was in fact a creature like them? Isn't that a creature worship? Now you're seeing why I reconsidered this subject of Trinity.

But let's look at that Isaiah 6:1-3 without the jWs bias, and we will appreciate that Jesus is in fact that one being seen here by Isaiah. John 12:41 says Isaiah saw his (Jesus) glory, and "spoke about him, not Jehovah, mind you. So who did Isaiah see? Isaiah answers:

"I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne." The final sentence says the whole earth is filled with his glory

So John is saying that Isaiah saw his glory and spoke about him. Who Isaiah saw and spoke about is Jesus. in my future article, we will see that scriptures used for God is applied to Jesus. But now Isaiah wrote mentioned only Jehovah, but John says he saw jesus. Some have concluded that this means that they are the same person, but that's not accurate.

Isaiah seeing his glory shows that Isaiah saw Jesus, but Isaiah calls him Jehovah. Why? Because they are of the same nature. Remember that Joshua seeing Jesus as he appeared as the Commander of Jehovah's Army. Now at Josh 6:2, that Jesus is referred to as Jehovah. (Compare John 17:12; Exod 23:21). This is another proof that they are of the same essence. We see this also in Psalm 102:25-27, where Paul applied what one would understand as praise to God the Father to Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12) There is no contradiction if we see that they share similar nature. You can switch the the glory you give to each of them and still be correct.

At Isaiah Chapter 48:11, Jehovah says He gives his glory to no one else. But at John 17:5, Jesus says he had always shared in His father's glory. Contradiction? No. This can only be the case because they are of the same nature. If you worship God, Jesus also shares in that glory. The same if you worship Jesus.

But what further proof do I have that Jesus is in fact worshipped? Next week Thursday, let us now move to the New Testament scriptures proper to prove that Jesus receives worship.

So far, we have proved that Jesus is not created, and that viewed from the Old Testament scriptures, he must be of the same nature as God the father, because He has the same image, He is a Universal sovereign and He is worshipped by Joshua and the Angelic Host.

These are links to my previous discussion on this topic of Trinity:

Part 1 https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrine

Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691

If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings.

https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topics

Tags: Aemmyjah, achorladey, Jozzy4, MaxInDHouse, MightySparrow, NowYouKnow, TemmyT002, johnw47, Boomark, Emusan

Jozzy4:
Everybody called " Son " has a beginning. Son proceed from a Father. Jesus is created.

I am not saying that you can't have your own opinion. At least you're convinced of that that is why you keep pressing it, but from my view, Fatherhood doesn't connote uncreated. It may to you, but we do have differing views at times. Its all fine and ok.

I think I am ok with this fatherhood point for now. But I appreciate your bringing up your view. Don't be offended that I don't see it the same way.

Jozzy4:
Eph 4:6 is my proof. " Father of ALL"

Uncreated, Nobody's Son.

But Jesus is a Son like everyone else, he is called our Brother. We are all created

That is poor exegesis.

Jesus can be called Father. Now why he is called eternal Father is debatable. But he is also mighty God, he didn't become mighty God when he came in earth. He has always been such.

The scripture you quoted didn't say that God is a Father because he is uncreated. You assumed that Father of all means that. Someone might also say the same of Isaiah 9:6.

Jesus once called his disciples little children.

Jesus Christ is uncreated and in fact is worshipped. My next article will talk about worship, and subsequent one will go further to prove he is worshipped but at least we can agree that Jesus being praised as a creator at Heb 1:10 is of itself a worship. I wonder how one will worship a creature.

I will rather say that God as the one who beget the Son and not the other way around, can take the title Father to Jesus. Is that the case? The scripture didn't say.

But it is clear you cant prove it anywhere from the scriptures that the title Father means uncreated. So let's not wait our time on this.

There is of course another option that can be explored even if we exclude the issue of creation about Jesus. As to the fact that he is not created, that is not negotiable. The scripture can't be understood underwise.

The Son is not said to be created, but Begotten. Man begets man. So God beget Jesus, who is of His nature. Now God doesn't give birth nor get pregnant. And the Sons begetal is from eternity. Prov 8.

Many have got different theories about this.

However, some early church fathers have theorized that Jesus was generated from the father through an eternal generation. You will have to notice that they will always add the word "eternal" to the generation. Why? Because there is no other way to say it without seeing some aspect of scriptures fight against you.

Some say the Father divided himself through His Word (Logos). I don't even understand that concept.

My own assumption is that the Father divided himself and called the other Facsimile Son. Perhaps since He initiated the splitting, it explains why He often receives praise most of the times for something done, while the Son shares in it. It may also explain why He took the function of Father and gave the Son to His facsimile. (I will explain the scriptural proof of this Facsimile word choice in my next article)

Perhaps that is why He occupies the role of Head and His Son that of submission.

Others like Prof Wayne Grudem, and Wares have stated that God has always existed that way with these functions in place from eternity.

All these are suppositions, the bible didn't go into such details. What we can be sure is that the Son has been there from eternity past. He was not created.

Jozzy4:
Why is God the Father never a Son but every other creature were called a Son?

The bible does not provide any direct answer to that question. If we are to assume that it is so because He has no beginning, well, neither is the Son. (John 1:3; Micah 5, Prov . That is why Fatherhood and Sonship of God the Father and Son are functions. We can't go beyond the scriptures.

Let's get to your interest, cos I don't understand.

Are you of the opinion that why God is called the Father is because he has no beginning? Is that your proof of His uncreated state?

If so, which scripture or lexicon are you relying on?

Janosky:
1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3 & Hebrew 1:2, is Jesus Christ the Creator?

The Greek word "dia antou" is the game changer.

Dia antou meaning Jesus is the instrumentality for creation.
Jesus is NEVER the Creator, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Genesis 1:27, Ephesians 3:14-15, & Matthew 19:4-5.[/b]

Your reply isn't addressing the part of my post you bold faced. I replied Jozzy4 on the issue of Jesus being a creator. You can read it if you wish.

Jozzy4:
You know what's interesting?
99% of those whom Father was applied to in the Bible were once a Son . The Son indicated the beginning of their existence

Can you show me where God the Father was once a Son like Jesus and others refered as Father ? None.

He was never a Son to a Father. Uncreated

Jesus was a Son to a Father , because he was created.

So you're agreeing that a Father can also be a son, and that Father does not necessarily mean uncreated. Your argument also implies that son doesn't mean that such one cannot be a Father. And neither is the word Son. This nullifies your argument with the use of the word "son".

Now, why then is God the Father not viewed as created? Not because he is called Father, no. And I don't think you do believe that why God is not created is because he is called Father. That doesn't even make a sense. So why?

Because the Bible tells us that He isn't. The scriptures says "from everlasting to everlasting", your are God. That's why we know He was not created. Secondly, He is our Creator. Our Creator obviously cannot be created Himself.

Now, Jesus meets all those qualifications. The bible says that Jesus origin is from everlasting Prov 8; Micah 5. The same word used for God as "from everlasting" was the one used for Jesus. So it is not whether he is father or son that makes us know who has origin and who doesn't friend.

Secondly, Jesus is definitely a creator. John 1:3 says without him not even one thing was created. If you say he is created, then he created himself. Simple.

Another indication that he is a creator is that he was praised in the book of Psalms as our Creator Jehovah, and Paul quoted that same Psalms and applied it to Jesus.

See how Jesus was praised for creating.

Heb 1

And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end” (NWT)

Meditate on the implication of those bolded areas.

Even the Watchtower agrees that this quotation is from Psalms 102:25-27. And check there, you will see that the psalmist there was praising Jehovah and at Heb 1:10, Paul is applying it to Jesus. So Jesus is the one being praise there as creator. If he was just an instrument, you don't dare praise an instrument for what he was used to do. So Jesus is definitely a creator as Jehovah. Sometimes you see Jesus being said to do what in another portion is said to have been done by God. Why? They are of the same nature. I will breeze in on that more in my next article. So wait for it.

MaxInDHouse:
Fathers surely have a beginning but the father of Jesus never had a beginning o!

Jesus was never an everlasting father until he adopted all obedient descendants of Adam {1Corinthians 15:45} so according to Isaiah.

The Messiah (Christ) will be called:

•Wonderful Counselor because through his wise counsel mankind will settle all their disparities peacefully among themselves, divert their resources into production of food and information materials, stop producing, buying, selling and usage of weapons and vow never to raise weapons against anyone again! Isaiah 2:4 compare to Mark 12:31

•Mighty God because he is going to perform miracles greater than Moses a God in Egypt who is mightier than Pharaoh the greatest king of his time! Exodus 7:1

•Eternal Father because he will buy all Adam's descendants with his blood, Adam became a father to all humans yet he is dead now but Jesus became an adoptive father of obedient humans and he will never ever die again with all the children he bought with his blood.

•Prince of Peace because during his reign the earth will become peaceful from one end to the other end! Psalms 37:9-11

Jehovah has never been referred to as Son or Prince!

So the point falls apart. That Jesus bear Son is no proof that he MUST have a beginning. I don't want to respond to other parts of your comment because it will derail the point being put forward. Besides John 1:3 is the proof that he was not created.

Jozzy4:
This is misleading

Isa 9:6
Shall be Called ? Future tense, Indicated a beginning of time when he will bear the name.

Was there anywhere it says the Father shall.be called Father at a FUTURE period ?

None

Once again if Son of God doesn't mean created, show me a single place the Father was called that?

You did say that Son has the idea of beginning. This is the point I am discussing, remember? Let's keep to that.

That your position is what is misleading. Father also do apply to people who have beginning just as the word Son. Adam is a Father, Abraham is a Father. Do they not have beginning?

Jesus fatherhood is futuristic. For Christ, what he will be called is what he is. Let's not derail. Fatherhood is like a title. There is no place in the bible that proofs that if one bears the title Father, he doesn't have a beginning. That is the point you're bringing up concerning the Son. This is what I am disproving.

The bible clearly says that apart from Christ, not even ONE thing was created. John 1:3. The only option available is that Christ created himself if we are to insist on him being created. If that statement is illogical, then Christ was not created. Simple.

MightySparrow:
Good work brother. NWT supports the doctrine of Trinity than any other translations. There is a God and god. And the scriptures say,

.
Isa.44.6 - Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Here in NWT, there is another god approved by the deluded Governing Body. Who co - created all in creation. He even created The Throne of God because God must be somewhere before He created The Heaven and The Throne all there is everywhere.

Once again, good job.

Nice point there.