₦airaland Forum

NowYouKnow:
What is the Meaning of JW PIMO?

JW PIMO= Jehovah's witness, (who is) Physically In the organization, but Mentally Out of the religion.

Jozzy4:
The Fact that the word " Son of God " and " Firstborn" was never applied to the Father already showed this is just a futile attempt to dribble the truth.

Every occurrence of Son in the scriptures was applied to peope with beginning. That is why no such word is ever applied to the Father at any point in history.

Even Father in the scriptures are also applied to people with beginning. Don't forget also that Jesus is called Everlasting Father.

MaxInDHouse:
Just listen to yourself.

Someone was preached to and after listening he or she decided to start studying the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses from lesson 1 of their book up to lesson 54 and you're still not convinced that such a person can never ever worship with any other religion wholeheartedly again.
Is this how you think?

Ọmọ before studying any book outside the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses the interested person is already convinced that he has found something of great value.

Note that there is nowhere in the scriptures to back up Jesus' teachings that John the baptist is the promised Elijah so such sacred secrets are revealed only to those who have become SERIOUS STUDENTS not something you throw up and down where your listeners are still not convinced that you have something worthwhile to offer.

So the RAPTURE of a thing supposed to be within those who can fully explain what led to it but as you can see it has no correlation with what is written in the Bible hence what this OP is asking those teaching it.

As for you there's no excuse for you because even though you're a rebellious member of Jehovah's Witnesses you can never ever find a better replacement for God's organization!

Your post is that such teachings as Gov Body and J. Organization is not taught to persons outside the group. The Enjoy Life book is for those outside the group.

And no one is barred from teaching any student those terms. You keep running front he main issue. The point is, such terms are not found in the scriptures just as Rapture is not found in the scriptures but the meaning of the term is covered by a scripture. jWs do believe in instant taken up of the living anointed. That's my point.

And mind you, I am not searching for replacement for JWs as if I am in a competition with JWs. As far as I am concerned, if you have faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice and love a moral life, I am not against you. I respect you as a Christian. My concern is not the church you join, my concern is you as a person, not church name. This church name has destroyed the body of Christ.

I know for you, I am fit for destruction, that is what church and human religion has done to mankind, but that is not my view of you. If you accept Jesus as your Lord and you live a moral life to the satisfaction of Jesus, my dear, I take you as a Christian. If you will be judged by Jesus based on your bible understanding, which I don't think so, that will be Jesus work to do, not mine.

But as christians, we can have different opinions on doctrinal matters and still live together. See what I do as to say I disagree with this or that, not that I am opposing you or that I am against you and your church. I am not. I say the truth about your church and disagree where I do. That's just being honest. I mean no harm.

TemmyT002:
Taking Nigeria as a case study, if you are not a Jehovah’s Witness, you must have heard from some pastors or some other Christians like you about how the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach the wrong gospel. You must have heard them say that they use the wrong Bible. They must have told you to kick them out of your house or never let them in. They might have even told you that listening to them could lead you to Hell Fire.

My view about them changed when I related with one of them during an external tutorial class. There was a single guy among the rest in a mixed class of Christians and Muslims. This guy was the only Jehovah’s Witness. We all had a lot of fun bullying him. We made jest of his bag and made jest of the fact that he was a Jehovah’s Witness.

Despite all these bullying, he never retaliated. We were still kids back then and our knowledge of the Bible was what we were taught in our different churches. We argued over some verses in the bible and the guy took pains to explain some topics based on what he had been taught. We all shut him down, of course.

Years later, I had the opportunity to visit one of their Kingdom Halls. I had read a lot of their FREE publications and I wanted to see what they did there. I was wowed. I have been to many other churches but this Kingdom Hall was different.

The surprising part was that after the service, I met this guy again and he was so happy to see me. I was surprised. I thought he would make jest of me and ask why I was there. Instead, he and the other people there showed me love.

How are the Jehovah’s Witnesses better Christians than the rest of us?

People bully them a lot especially when we were young. I personally passed through such bullying. But so are other Christians with unorthodox doctrines like the Sabbatarians, Mormon, etc. JW doctrines are not conventional, so people harp on that.

You will experience such bully if you're a christians who live areas where the dominant religion is not Christianity. Truth be told, if your beliefs are different, that makes people have fun with you.

What is not known is that JWs bully and persecute those in Christendom if you live in a compound dominated by JWs or if you live with a relative that all members there are JWs. You will be locked for your beliefs, Catholics are the worst hit.

1. THEY FACE MORE PERSECUTIONS

The Bible says “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”- Matthew 5:10

John 15:18- “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.”

2 Timothy 3:12 – “Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.”

You will agree with me that Christians in Nigeria also get persecuted but the persecutions occur mostly in the Northern part of Nigeria. Jehovah’s Witnesses, however, are many all over the world and they are persecuted more than all other Christians of different denominations. The recent one occurred in Russia.

The Southwestern part of Nigeria, which is full of the Yorubas is considered to be full of people who are tolerant and accept you into their society no matter your status or religion. However, Jehovah’s Witnesses still get persecuted there most of the time.

I watched an American movie about the Second World War and at the end of the movie, some statistics were listed based on the number of people who were killed by Hitler’s Soldiers. Apart from the Jews, the homosexuals, and blacks, I was surprised to see Jehovah’s Witnesses listed among them too.

True, JWs do get persecuted and they do well to gather their statistics and fight for their members and make it known widely. Yes.

But christians in Christendom are the most persecuted world over. Check www.persecution.org, as at 2023, there are over 150 million christians veins persecuted world over. This includes JWs, but JWs are only about 20 million. Deduct the total number of JWs from that, you will see that many other denominations are more persecuted.

Many reasons why they are persecuted is based on their wrong understanding of the scriptures. This has put them in harms way most of the times. That is not good anyway. There still christians that got persecuted under Hitler. Even the other Bible Student groups were also persecuted.

So I disagree with this point.

2. DONATIONS ARE VOLUNTARY

Unlike in other Christian churches where people are forced or even threatened to make donations, donations in Kingdom Halls of the Jehovah’s Witnesses are quite voluntary. When you walk into one of their Halls, you will see a box right at the entrance calling you to make voluntary donations.

In other churches, publications are not free. Pastors and General Overseers write a lot of books. Some churches even produce a lot of books for the benefit of their congregations but these books are not free. This is different with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

In each Kingdom Hall, at least the ones I have been to, there is a special place where lots of books and publications are arranged. You can pick any book depending on the language you want for free.

You might have seen them giving out books on the streets and they would never ask you to buy them. They would instead ask you to make voluntary donations. Even if you don’t have money, you can go ahead and pick. They are more interested in making sure you gain the knowledge of God’s word.

Yap. I agree. JWs are better on that aspect.

3. MEMBERS AND SOCIAL MEDIA

Do you know a Jehovah’s Witness who doesn’t ‘preach’ on social media? When Jesus was leaving the earth, he asked his disciples to go all over the world and preach the gospel.

Thankfully, we are in the jet age where you can share information that can reach people all over the world. Unfortunately, today’s Christians rarely make use of this opportunity to preach the gospel.

There are lots of Christians who have huge followers on different social media platforms but unless they are pastors, you would rarely see them post anything related to the gospel on their accounts. Instead of sermons you will see them posting their beautiful pictures.

Jehovah’s Witnesses’ members post different topics on Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, Pinterest, and so on. Whatever they learn in their Kingdom Halls or conventions, they make sure they share them online.

Other Christians prefer to share nonsensical topics and topics that won’t touch your life positively in anyway. They are supposed to share the sermons they learn from their different churches every Sunday but they would rather share posts concerning Big Brother Nigeria or other nonsense.

That's not true. Other churches have their members here on nairaland preach regularly. In fact, if you do a count, there are more in Christendom preaching here than JWs. Do a count.

JWs a required to turn in a field service report each month. For regular Pioneers, they are required to submit 50hrs or more each month. This is a most preach tactics. So some do preach on social media to make up the hour.

I see more people on TikTok who preach, sing gospel songs or teach the bible on TikTok, YouTube who are those of Christendom than I see JWs do the same on this platforms. In fact, many I know who are JWs on TikTok don't preach.

4. EVANGELISM

This is one of the things they are known for. Apart from the social media, radio and other modes of evangelism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses preach the gospel by walking from house to house.

Despite the fact that a lot of people reject them, they still keep on. Everything in their minds is looking for one or two people whose lives they can touch positively. You see them walking in the sun, with their umbrellas and bags, with no shame. They prefer to follow God’s instructions and they do this at least twice in a week, walking long distances.

Yes, door to door or cart witnessing is one way witnesses do more than others I know.

But don't compare when it comes to public witnessing like the apostles in the scriptures. The Evangelicals Trump's Witnesses ten fold. Tv, Radio, YouTube, TikTok are full of many Christians evangelizing. Some of them are not required to submit any report, yet they evangelize. When you enter a bus, who are always the ones who lead in prayer and preach in buses? In fact if a JW is in that bus, he won't participate either in prayer or songs.

5. TESTIMONIES

Their testimonies are different from those of other Christians. While other Christians give testimonies about what God has done in their lives, most of the testimonies usually involve material things of the world. This is good but there is always something missing.

Other Christians testify about the new cars they just purchased, the new child they just had, the new house they just built and so on. The testimonies of Jehovah’s Witnesses involve turning over a new leaf, giving their lives to Jesus and becoming a model example.

They have different stories on testimonies like these. When you read about people changing and turning over a new leaf, you will be encouraged and you will want to have the same experience. In one of their publications, I read about a Japanese Kamikaze soldier who fought in World War Two and then became a Jehovah’s Witness and began to preach the gospel. I was wowed.

While many testimonies in churches may be about wealth, not all of them. With regards to turning to Jesus. No. JWs will rather say dedicating their lives to Jehovah than giving their life to Jesus.

But I agree that wealth is not the focal point among JWs. This is good. But not all church testimonies revolve around wealth.

6. THEY ARE ORDERLY AND CALM

Have you ever walked into a Kingdom Hall? As you approach the place, you would believe they are not holding any program because you won’t hear anything. It is only when you enter into the Hall that you will realize that there is a program going on after all.

Other churches love the use of loud speakers. You could be far away and you would hear the different speakers from different churches booming and screaming. Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Kingdom Halls do not pollute the air with noises.

During their programs, they never compete for Bible reading. We all know this. In Pentecostal churches, when the pastor calls a Bible verse, you see fifty people trying to read the same verse at the same time. You would think the fastest reader would be paid for it.

The ‘winner’ is usually the fastest reader. This usually causes fracas among the readers after church services and you may sometimes see two ‘readers’ keeping malice against each other.

The reverse is the case in Kingdom Halls. When a Bible verse is called or when a question is asked, people would raise their hands in order to respond. Everything is calm and quiet. You feel peace in your heart. You forget your problems.

That's true. The meetings are well organized. No noise. But moderate noice isn't wrong in itself. The festivals carried by Jews for eg in temple dedication were loud and noisy. That is not a big issue, although today's society may frown at that.

7. SHOW OF LOVE

Many churches in Nigeria love to welcome newcomers. Some churches serve them foods and drinks and collect their phone numbers. The choir members sing a song of welcome and then some top leaders of different groups walk over to the newcomers to shake their hands and welcome. That’s all.

At the end of the program, everyone leaves and forget the newcomer. This occurs in most churches. When a newcomer’s phone number is gotten, all the church want to do is to make sure the newcomer becomes a member and comes always.

In Kingdom Halls, this is different. After the service, almost everyone walks over to you to shake your hand and welcome you with beautiful smiles. Then they politely ask if you would want free Bible study.

There are so many other ways by which the Jehovah’s Witnesses are better Christians than the rest of us and we need to emulate these qualities. There is a very big difference if we are being sincere with ourselves.

Showing love to one another is the key to peaceful nation. Despite the number of churches in Nigeria, in different states and in different streets, corruption is still rampant. Ethnic bigotry and tribalism is till rampant. Something is wrong somewhere and it is all in our hands to change things.

Jehovah's witnesses love themselves. Yes. But don't move that to love for others. That is almost zero. All the welcome they show you is because they either welcome their preaching, attend their meetings or read their publications. They try alot to get you to become a member. If on the other hand, you invite them to your church, give them your church books, they won't accept it. Even if you pray, they won't close their eyes. When someone wants you to welcome his and ignore yours, thats not love. It is a way to get you to become one of them.

On the other hand, churches preach to you, and encourage you as you engage in Christian evangelical activities. You are here commending the witnesses for what they do, the last thing a JWs will do is to write an article like this about other churches. NEVER!

Even if all the church today die as Martyrs, JWs will not write a post here commending your faith as a true Christian faith. To them you are false and died in falsehood. Christians will defend JWs and report their bravery, but they won't do the same for you. Have you ever seen any JWs or their website write about the Chibok girls or any brave Christian in Nigeria? Never.

The true Christian live if you ask me is done by Christendom. They can organize a humanitarian aid that will cater for anyone, they can give to widows and orphans without asking which church they belong. JWs only go for their members. Their love is like the tax collectors and sinners who love those who love them. Christendom love those who love them and love even JWs who hate them.

Just attend their meetings one month and see whether you will not hear any derogatory comment about Christendom. But you may attend church a year without any Pastor castigate the witnesses. Some pastors even collect their books and read. They can't collect yours even you give it free.

MaxInDHouse:
Did Jehovah's Witnesses teach anyone outside those adhering to their teachings terms they use in their group?

Governing Body and Jehovah's organization is not taught outside their group so stop making noise on the spiritual language they use among themselves.

So you can't find Governing Body in Lesson 54 of Enjoy Life Forever book? Lesson 58 did not mention Jehovah's organization? Are you sure you preach at all?

I've advised you to research first before you post, you wont to listen.

MaxInDHouse:
Please can you QUOTE the word "RAPTURE" in the Bible?
Thanks in advance!

Where is the Governing Body found in the Bible? Where is "Jehovah's organization" found in the bible?

You don't even know that JWs believe in rapture? Check the meaning of rapture and see that JWs believe in an instant taken up of the anointed.

Last time I posted about the meaning of Trinity which many obviously don't know. Today, I will be writing about Jesus origin.

My previous belief was that Jesus was a creature. This is because of what I was taught as a JW. The view is that Col 1:15 says that Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of all creation. The organization understand that to mean that Jesus was the first person created by God. They also understand the same about Only Begotten. They understand that begotten mean created. That Jesus is the only person directly created by Jehovah. And that after Jesus creation, God used Jesus to create all other things. That is why if you notice in their translation they added "other" in Col 1:16. Their view made them to use "a god" in their translation of John 1:1.

However, as I further went through the scriotures, I realized that the view is lacking. Why?

Why Jesus is not a Creature:

See John 1:1-3 once more.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence."

The bold face phrase shows clearly that Jesus cannot be a creature. Since this verse says that apart from Jesus, NOT even ONE thing came into existence, we only have two option, 1. If Jesus was created, Jesus must be the one who created himself. Why? Because apart from him, nothing was made. 2. He was not created.

The latter conclusion seems plausible.

Secondly, the word "all" that appeared in verse 3 is "panta" which the New World Translation added "other" at Col 1:16. "Other" was not added at John 1:3. Obviously, because it can't fit the rest of the sentence. You cannot add "other" when the verse clearly said that apart from him not even one thing came into existence. It is also noteworthy that if you read col 1:16 in their interlinear, you will notice that "other" is not there showing that "other" was added.

Thirdly, The book of John was written after the book of Colossians. So John must have known what Paul wrote at col 1:15,16 before he wrote that apart from Jesus "not even one thing came into existence". This shows that neither John nor Paul thought that Jesus was part of creation. That phrase at John 1:3 also shows that John didn't mean that Rev 3:14 be understood to mean that Jesus was a creature. John 1:3 was written after the book of Revelation. This means that Col 1:15 doesn't fit the rest of the scriptures if we understand "firstborn" to mean first created. Firstborn can also mean preeminence as in Exod 4:22.

But let's see Col 1:15, 16 ones more.

Let us analyse Colosians chapter 1:15-16 first, then we shall see what this firstborn means.

See col 1:16-17

"because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all (other) things, and by means of him all (other) things were made to exist."

Why can we say that Jesus is not part of the creation?

The bible clearly says that all things created included both things visible and things invisible. This statement includes all created things in heaven. If Jesus was an invisible creature, then he created himself. If that is not plausible, then Jesus was not created. This scripture thus agrees with John 1:3, that not even one thing existed apart from Jesus.

Then why is he called the FIRSTBORN?

We read:

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him."

This verse is clearly self explanatory. Notice that verse 16 explains the reason he is the firstborn. It says "BECAUSE by means of him all things were created..." This is self explanatory, he is the firstborn because all things were made by him. Firstborn in this sense means preeminence or Lord of creation. In him were all things created and for him. The same preeminence is pointed out in verse 18.

What about Prov 8:22?

I don't see this verse as a strong evidence of Jesus creation. Wisdom was used here and was seen to be possessed by kings and many others. Now in verse 22, it was said that Jehovah possessed the wisdom. The Hebrew word can be translated possess, purchase or beget. The latter can be found at Gen 4:1 beget a child. The same Hebrew word occured there. Certainly, Jesus is begotten by the Father. Begetal is not the same as created. You create from other materials while you beget your kind, your nature. Man begets a human. It should also be borne in mind that Apostle John knew about Prov 8:22 before he wrote at John 1:3 that"not even one thing came into existence" apart from Jesus. So we cannot take everything in Prov 8:22 as literal.

For example this Proverb appear to say that Jesus came sometime within the creative activity of Jehovah. But John 1:1-3 and Col 1:15-17 says Jesus did ALL the creating, while God the Father must have featured in some way, Jesus is said to be the main creator. Not even one thing came into existence apart from Jesus. Of course, what Jesus does is often said to be done by God and vice versa because they dwell within themselves. John 14:10. But since God the Father occupy the Headship role, he is often credited with ownership of the work most of the times.

In all this, John 1:3 is both more clear and rules out any supposition that Jesus is a creature. Heb 1:3 even stated that the universe, all creation is sustained by the word of his power. Can a creature sustain creatures? This shows that all things issued from him and he is their sustainer.

But what about Begotten?

Trinitarians agree that Jesus is begotten. Like I said above, He is begotten, not made. What is the subject of discussion is what begotten mean. Some are of the opinion that Jesus was generated by the Father from all eternity. Meaning that there was no time that the Son was not in existence. I personally think that God split Himself in two such that the other half didn't have beginning of experience at life, but have the same nature and experience as the Father. And for the purposes of having other conscious creatures like humans, they took roles, one Father, and the other Son. Then from Father and Son issue the Holy Spirit. The Father playing role of Headship, the Son acting a subordinate role. There are many reasons to reason this way, as I write more on the lofty position of Jesus, this will naturally start to make sense. But for now let's see why we cannot fix a beginning of experience for Jesus.

Let's start with Prov 8:22. When was the Son installed or brought up or begotten?

Prov 8:22-24, identifies it as "the beginning of his ways", earliest of his achievement of long ago", then verse 23 use the word " from". It says " from ancient times.

This might appear to suggest a beginning in time, but not until we understand the meaning of Ancient times. The same Hebrew word is used at at Psalm 93:2. We also see the same word used for Jesus at Micah 5:2. But notice what Psalm 93:2 says.

"Your throne was firmly established long ago; From eternity you have existed."

Notice that the word " from eternity" is used of the Father as well. This cannot make us to think that God the Father started from somewhere in eternity. See again at Hab 1:12

12 Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. O Jehovah, you appointed them to execute judgment; My Rock, you established them for punishment.

This is just few of where the same word is used of God. So the word ancient time or when "from" is used, we should not be tempted to think of beginning of existence. At worse beginning of experience.

Some have thought of the word "Son" attached to "begotten", as in, "only begotten Son" to say that for he to be a son, of necessity demands that he have a beginning. We can understand why one will say that, at least that is our own experience as humans, but the nature of God is not flesh. All the analogy we use for God must be borne in mind that it is not all encompassing, there are limitations to our analogies. For example while he is called only begotten Son, he is also called only begotten God at John 1:18. This made many scholars to see the begotten as a way of differentiating the function of the Father from that of the Son. Jesus is also called Everlasting Father at Isaiah 9:6. It is becoming clear that this might be because of roles they undertook from everlasting.

Let us move to other things said about Jesus that shows that he MUST be of the same essence or nature as his Father.

We ll consider that next week Thursday.

Courz:
Nice one Sand2022. As a former JW myself, when I woke up, I decided to read the Bible for myself without the JW interpretation. I made sure to dump the New World Translation Bible of JW and read different Bible versions. I also used to think the Trinity doctrine was foolish and made no sense as a JW. But when I read the Bible for myself, I saw instances where Jesus is called God. I also noticed that Almighty God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit always act together. They are separate of course but whenever one does something, it is the 3 of them doing it. This was what I kept seeing in the Bible.

For example, in the Bible, it is said God raised Jesus from the dead. It is also said Jesus told the Jews Destroy this temple and in 3 days , I will raise it up again. The temple is his body. Meaning, Jesus raised his body back to life. Then in another verse, it says the Holy Spirit dwelling in us is the same Spirit that brought Jesus back to life. See? This is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit acting together. They are truly One even though separate.

I don't know if you have watched Near Death Experiences. There are testimonies of Christians who went to heaven when they died. I have one testimony of a very young boy although it isn't a Near Death Experience. It is an experience of seeing heaven made possible by Jesus himself. This boy should be 7 or 8 years old. The boy was narrating his vision of heaven to his parents. He said he saw Jesus and saw God as described in the Bible but he couldn't see God's face as that's not possible. He said he noticed that God and Jesus would merge together to be one and at some point would separate. I found this interesting because it lines up with what Jesus said: I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. It also lines up with the verse that says Jesus is the exact representation of his Father in Divinity. Also, the same Bible says The Holy Spirit dwells in us once we accept Jesus. It also says Jesus dwells in us. It then says our body is the temple of God. The three always act in Unison. This is the only way to explain The Trinity doctrine that aligns with the Bible.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit is God though that should be worshipped since the Bible never said so. But these verses have made me to realise that Jesus is more than a messenger. He is so much more. He is Mighty God as he created everything. Almighty God is also God and our creator. The same Holy Spirit was in action during creation. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are truly One.

Wow, keep it up bros. I have also noticed the same cooperation as I researched the topic. We will benefit each other as we compare notes as it were

MightySparrow:
..
I have had discussions with some JWs myself and discovered that what they understand by Trinity is sometimes modalism. Their claims, apart from, scriptural harassment are not correct.

Yes. I can remember one picture in Require Brochure that drew three heads of similar looks fused into one. So even the JW GB don't understand the teaching of Trinity, at least as at the time the brochure was published.

Kingsempires:
In Christianity, they believe in the Trinity to be God divinity this is the proof from the bible that makes the belief of the Trinity


Isaiah 9;6,col 2:9,1 cor 8;16,2cor13:14, 2cor13;14,joh 10;30,luke1;35,mat 28;19,mat3;16-17,john14;16-17 e.t.c


These chapters and verses I quoted proofs the Trinity of God is Biblical.


But there is also places in the Bible that proof that Yahweh/Jehovah is the one and only God places like;


Isaiah 45;5-12,mark 10:17-18,john; 5:30,john 5;44 Exodus 20;3,deu 4;35, mark 12;29-34, Romans 3;30,1chron 17;20, Psalm 86;10 e.t.c


So this is were it confuses.Is it that the Bible is saying two different things.This is what the Muslims, atheist or some other religions will Said that the Bible is full of contradiction. So my fellow Christian can anyone fully explained the holy Trinity for does who those not really understand about Trinity and why is there difference explanation between this chapters I wrote above.


Please am not against anybody, anybody who have knowledge about this chapters should please explain the way others can understand it

This is what I will gradually do. I have started with a post that explained what the Trinity really means. Many misunderstand the concept of Trinity. I did misunderstand it for years. See the explanation here https://www.nairaland.com/8185855/jw-pimo-reconsiders-trinity-doctrine

Trinity basically means three persons that possess one nature. That's all.

Within the three are roles. One serve as the Father, another Son and another Holy Spirit. When you think of God, it's as if you think of say Humankind - a Nature. Click the link to read more.

When God says He is one, it means the same thing when Jesus says I and the Father are one. The reference is to their nature. They are one because there is no other person possessing their nature.

I don't have my bible close, so don't pick on the bible reference.

For example at Gen 1:26, God says "Let US create man in our image". This shows plurality. However, when you read forward, the bible then says, 'God created the man in HIS image". Previously, God says let us, but after the bible says, God, singular, created them male and female. This means that the word " God" there stands for a nature consisting of others. For centuries, God didn't tell us how many make up the Godhead until the gospel age.

When Jesus came, we now see him saying he is one with the Father, that if you see him, you have seen the Father. Later we see that Jesus was infact the one who created all things. Now the pieces start to gather as to the US at Gen 1:26.

I will gradually expand what I personally saw during my research into this topic. Just stay tuned. But I will not be posting it in this thread, you may want to follow the link I shared above to get updated.

Aemmyjah:
The only organization that holds an assembly or convention and you have about 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000...10000, etc either at the assembly hall, stadium or anywhere else and there's no arrangement for security like police or soldiers or whatever and there's much order and joy... Jehovah's Witnesses

There are cases of robbery, kidnapping during some conventions. My dear the organization is good at keeping things in-house. If you have served as an elder you will know the protocol when things like this happen. Bros alot happen that outsiders don't know. If you know, you know.

However to have security during conventions is not wrong in itself. No organization rules is against it when there is need. But organization do follow other means to ensure security like shifting convention time, date, location, convention badge, closed gate, or use the brothers as security to inform members when to run away.

As a JW, one teaching I was opposed to was the trinitarian doctrine. I cannot see how Jesus can be God. I feel they are distinct persons and that Jehovah is the only God. That only Jehovah should be worshipped. When I became a JW, I was further told the meaning of Trinity, and I came to have more hatred for the doctrine. From what the witnesses taught me, I told myself that I didn't even believe this trinity even while I was in the church. Three persons in one God is contradictory to me.

I knew the proves the witnesses have against Trinity. As an elder I taught this from the platform then. But recently, I revisited that doctrine. This time through a personal scriptural analysis to see what the Bible has to say. But before I tell you what I found out scripturally, let us first look at the meaning of Trinity which for many years I never knew.

I found out that Trinity doesn't mean three persons inside one God. Rather three persons that has one Nature. The nature aspect is what I had missed for many years. I never understood it that way before.

Their are three persons, but they have one nature. From what I understand, when we think about God, we mean the creator of heaven and earth, MOST importantly, when we think of God, we mean our Deity. Now what trinitarians are saying is that there are more than one persons who match that description, but all of them possess the same features we have in mind when we say God. In other words they have the same Nature, but they are not one person.


Let's say it another way. When you say Human. You obviously know that the feature of humankind is not possessed by just one person. There are many, but they all have the same human features. So when you think about God, you are thinking about a nature. In that nature are three persons that possess it.

This is a huge game changer in my Trinity journey. You may have noticed that I have avoided Trinity subject in this board. This is deliberate. Prior to this time, I never believed that doctrine. And for some time, I delved into it, and started to see things differently. My approach to this subject might be different from what you have ever heard before on this subject because I did my study, and i also tried to view the subject from a JW perspective and saw that even from JW teaching, you cant run away from this one nature shared by the three, especially the two, father and Son.

In my part 2 of this trinity series, We will start from John 1:1. Let's trace Jesus origin once more. Check in next week Thursday.

Others Parts are now available:

Part 2 https://www.nairaland.com/8192278/part-2-jw-pimo-reconsiders/2#131731691

Part 3
https://www.nairaland.com/8199011/part-3-jw-pimo-reconsiders#131747507

If you want to see more of my writeup about JWs theology, go to my profile and see my series on "Ministry to JWs". I have over 12 articles on their teachings.

https://www.nairaland.com/sand2022/topics

OnknownSoldier:
I am naturally drawn to things that people generally criticize and most of the time, I do find out that most of these things are not really what people say they are. People would generally hate what they don’t understand and that is the case of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. While growing up, I watched people avoid interacting with them and this made me curious to know about their doctrines.

After studying with the Jehovah’s Witnesses for more than 12 years, I can say that they are widely misunderstood by most people. Do I totally agree with them? No, I do not but I share their perspective in some areas like the subject of the Trinity and Tithing. I do not actively study with the Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore but here are areas they have my respect.

Yes, they are widely misunderstood by many. Many think they are an occultic society, and some feel they don't believe in Christ. Others say, they don't pray. These are not true.

But their ex members know them well.

First, is evangelism. Without a doubt, no other Christian set actively evangelizes like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, none even come close. As a Jehovah’s Witness, you are readily mandated to evangelize not just occasionally like most Christian sets but regularly.

You're correct. I praise their effort in preaching. It is true that they get you to do it by demanding that you submit a report, but that isn't a wrong thing naturally. By preaching, I mean door to door that includes most of the members. I say this because the churches do preach as well, but in different styles. But the witnesses are good with door to door.

However, they put in more time to preach, but I must confess, having served as an elder for years there, the churches have more growth than JWs. I mean far more growth.

The next group that tries with the doors/houses are the Mormon missionaries. Assemblies of God do preach, but not as much as these control groups.

Second is their civility. As far as I am concerned, I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses are the most civilized Christian set in Nigeria. Even though they use microphones in their services, you can barely hear a sound outside their kingdom hall. I think most churches need to learn from them on how not to disturb people with their horn speakers. It can be very annoying.

That's another plus. Some churches can't disturb sleep for Africa. But that is not a big problem for me. But I wish they time it down.

The LDS church are that civil as well. What you need to realize is that Control Groups have more obedience and control than free churches. Jesus called us to freedom, although some misuse that.

Control Groups are like Banks, while churches are like Govt offices. The former has little liberty assigned to their members, while the latter are more lenient and more considerate.

Third is their uniformity. I have gone to kingdom halls and many Jehovah’s Witnesses’ conferences in many regions of the country and I can confirm that they teach the same message everywhere. Most multi-branched churches in Nigeria are not like this. Don't let me start to mention names.

That is one feature control groups are known for. It is the same in Scientology, LDS, Amish Community etc. Don't compare these groups to Institutions that allows their members to be real in their worship of God.

What the control group have earned as a result is broken families, double-minded members who appear to follow the organization but who work against them. Eg, among JWs are thousands of PIMOs. Whereas in the churches, these people will profess what they truly believe and still allowed to associate with their family members and friends. The method of control groups only produce double-minded members if you ask me.

Fourth is biblical knowledge. When it comes to biblical knowledge, I haven't seen that Christian set that can win the Jehovah’s Witnesses in a Bible-based debate even though a lot of people will argue that their teachings are heresies. The truth of the matter is that no church is perfect and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not an exemption. Try an engage a random 8-year-old Jehovah’s Witness, you will be shocked by his or her narration of biblical events.

Recently, I was watching a video of two pastors arguing about tithing on Facebook and I was so irritated by the pastor arguing for why Christians should pay tithe. The Bible verses he was using as his defense were totally irrelevant to the points he was making. Jehovah's Witnesses are not like that. If you ask a Jehovah’s Witness a question he doesn't know, he will not try to be proof smart to you or beat around the bush, he will simply tell you that he does have the answer to your question but he will reach out to his superior for the answer. Trust me, he will always come back with a reasonable response even if it doesn't really answer the question exactly but at least it will sound very reasonable.

You speak about the JWs you've been acquainted with. Some witnesses will stay there to give you answers that are not supported by their Organization, in some cases to prove their doctrine right. Of course, you won't know they're doing this.

As for Bible knowledge. I agree, JWs perform well in defending their doctrine than church members I KNOW. Most of what they teach is false, but since the church members they come to know little about their bible, and their pastors perhaps don't even know, the witnesses succeed in deceiving people with falsehood fashioned as if it is true. It is said: in the land of the blind, a one eyed man is a king. That is what happens. Yes, I agree, the witnesses know the biblical basis for their doctrine much more than church goers. It is even recently that I got to truly understand the teaching of Trinity. I will make a post about that in the future. Most people don't really know the meaning of Trinity.

You can go to my profile to see my teachings on some of the doctrines of witnesses. Many of them are outright falsehood.

Fifth is their lower divorce rate. Of course, there will certainly be Jehovah’s Witnesses who are divorced but I am yet to see one myself. Do you know one? The Bible says, “By their fruits, we shall know them. This is a clear testament to show that the word of God is of great effect in their lives. Yeah!

I disagree with you on this one. JWs have high divorce rate. It became worse that the leadership started producing books, Brochures and videos showing how to be happy in marriage. The JWs do have plenty marital problems. It is not unique to them though, but don't ever think they are better. What you need to know is that control groups operate more in secret than free churches.

Sixth is their devotion. When it comes to devotion, I rate the Jehovah’s Witnesses very high. A Jehovah’s Witness with an MSc can decide to turn into an artisan simply because he doesn't want anything that will hinder him from going to weekly meetings at the Kingdom Hall. One of their members once told me that he has never missed a meeting in his entire life and if I wasn't mistaken, he should be around 32 years of age when he told me that. Jehovah’s Witnesses don't joke with their meetings and that's why you will rarely see a Jehovah’s Witness working in the bank.

Again this is common among control groups.

However, The JWs attend their meetings more than people attend church. Yes, they have a plus there.

Lastly is their less emphasis on money. This is one area I respect the Jehovah’s Witnesses most. A Jehovah’s Witness will politely stop you by the road, hand you a book that would have cost you a lot of money, and ask that you give a free-will offering. Even if N5 is all you have, he will collect. This is not the way it is in other Christian sets where everything is for sale. The only Christian set that is a bit like the Jehovah’s Witnesses in this regard is the Christ Embassy with their “Rhapsody of Reality”. It will shock you that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not take offerings or tithe in their meeting except a box at the entrance of the hall where members can drop their voluntary offerings. Sometimes I imagine how they can run their publications and the maintenance of their halls. I don't think there is any better way to explain the true provision of God than that.

This is a huge thumbs up for JWs if you ask me. Many churches are just their for money. They do not commit half of the time JWs commit to ground their members in their doctrine. They are good to invent ways to squeeze cash from their members while their members can't even prove their doctrines scripturally. And their are more scriptures supporting most doctrines of the church, but they don't get into this. It is concerning.

In conclusion, I know a lot of Christians see the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a heretic movement or even a demonic one but I don't think so. Instead, I see sincere people who are devoted to God in the way they know best. Whether their doctrine is accurate or not, I just hope God counts the sincerity of their heart and devotion as righteousness.

Written by Ifedayo Oyewumi

As you say, what they believe is based on what they know. Are they heretics? Yes. They don't follow the true teachings of the church. They are heretics and apostates. Wil God save some there? Very possible, at least some don't know that what they believe is false. More importantly, they believe in Jesus, his resurrection and that he died for our sins. That is a huge path to salvation, especially for those who without fault of their own, do not know that their teachings are false. When I was their mind and soul, I never knew that their teachings were false. I thought it was the truth. So there are many many such persons there.

And I blame the churches for not doing enough to ground their members and protect them from impostors who come to deceive them. This is why I started both in this channel and other channels to scriptural show why JWs are wrong, so that people will be liberated from these falsehood they spread.

Lastly, while control groups are good in control and grounding their members in their doctrines, you should also appreciate the freedom the Lord has offered you in the Churches. Just don't misuse it. Remember, if you were a JWs, you cant write all the things you have written above about another church. If you ever write such and your elders sees you made that post, you will be invited to either delete it or be disciplined. You can also attend their kingdom hall and go free, but you can't attend any other church if you're a full member of JWs. If you do and get caught, they remove you and none of your friends who are JWs will talk to you, unless in the kingdom hall with a half hearted short greeting.

None of the JWs can watch a teaching by any pastor, give his videos a thumbs up, or accept you to come to their own home to preach. Why? The group control system will kick them off if they do.

Now, do you not appreciate the freedom you have in Christ? Is it not sweet to make your opinion known and still get accepted by your church? That is what we're called for, freedom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T-CK9YC030?si=O2XHjJzXk6WiyjKs

MaxInDHouse:
Just as you can't differentiate falsehood from truth and oteneaaron, achorladey, Templee33, wumiwumi, Sand2022 are all Christians to you yet they're not attending meetings with any congregation of God! Hebrews 10:24-25

Like seriously, how do you know that I don't attend meetings with the congregation of God?

achorladey:
Because in your lies and manipulations filled brains attending meetings with any congregation of God means going to kingdom halls on a set day, given time and location

This is a good reply.

This is the short version of the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCGfE9yMnXc?si=kZCs3kv7uWxJriGu

MaxInDHouse:
Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and it's temple in the year 607 B.C.E.

God revealed in a dream that the trampling of Jerusalem which is God's arrangement to rule will last for SEVEN TIMES! Daniel 4:23

When Jesus walked the earth he told first century Jews that the times of the nations is still ongoing so they should wait until the SEVEN TIMES is over! Luke 21:24

The nations will continue to rule and Christ must sit at God's right hand until the time is fulfilled! Psalms 110:1 compare to Act 7:56

So how long is the SEVEN TIMES?
In the Bible book of Revelation it was revealed to John the apostle that three and a half times is equal to 1260 days! Revelations 12:6, 14

Therefore SEVEN TIMES will amount to 2520 days but if we're to calculate from 607 B.C.E. that will end in the year 600 B.C.E. yet Jesus told his contemporaries that the time God gave the nations is still ongoing in his own days {Luke 21:24} therefore we have to go by the standard God pronounced when Israelites annoyed Him a day will be for a year! Numbers 14:34 compare to Ezekiel 4:6

So the 2520 days will be 2520 years counting from 607 B.C.E. it ended in the year 1914.
That was the year Jesus was crowned as King of God's kingdom in heaven and the first thing he did was sending Satan out of heaven that year {Revelations 12:7-12} the earth began seeing woes right from that time until today! Matthew 24:7-14

God's people continued preaching zealously and industriously teaching throughout the earth gathering millions of peace loving subjects in preparation for the second coming of Christ who is coming to destroy all opposers of his rule! Luke 19:27

So whoever believes this will continue doing the work Jesus assigned to his disciples with endurance till the end! Matthew 24:13-14

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

Why are you still posting this unfortunate calculation? I have shown why this teaching is wrong in my thread

https://www.nairaland.com/7882892/ministry-jws-part-2-1914

One of the points I made in that link is this:

"There is a problem with this calculation.

It is true that 3 and half times amounts to 1260 days as that scripture shows, but that only applies in days, not years. In other words, when ever you want to convert 3 and half times to days, you should get 1260 days. But when ever you want to convert 3 and half times to years, it amounts to 3 and half years, not 1260 years.

See how it goes:

1260 days equals approx to 3 years and a half year. In the bible one month equals 30 days.

So if I am 2 years old. If you want to convert that my age to days, it will be 720 days. But it will be wrong that in trying to convert it to years, you now say that I am 720 years. No na.

This is consistent with all the biblical mention of a time, times and half a time in the bible. It's yearly conversion is always 3 and half years, but in days, it is 1260 days. It is believed, even by JWs, that the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar amounted to seven years. This also supports that idea that conversion into years is 3 and half years, not 1260 years..."

In Summary:

Jewish month is seen to be 30 days each.

3 and half = 1260days

If you want to convert that to years.

3 and half times = 3 and half years.

In other words, 1260days = 3 and half years.

That is consistently how 3 and half TIMES is reckoned in the bible. You cannot apply the principle of "a day for a year" in 3 and half times. It already has its daily and yearly reckoning in scripture.

Steep:
All accepted Jeremiah as a true prophet, it does not matter whether it is before his death or after his death.

You should be arguing with someone else then. My earlier point you started to attack has this the main point. The words of Jeremiah was not viewed as inspired by the religious leaders of his day. But now, it is. The same is true of God's prophets today. The point is that rejection of prophets when they are alive is common. It didn't start today. If this is not important, then leave my comments alone. That is one of the proof of my comment you were responding to.

what were the issues? The only issue they had initially was that they were not sure of its author.

Go and.make.research my friend.

an inspired statement does not mean it should be part of scripture.
Scriptures were written by prophets and apostles of christ.

See your comment that made me reply that:

The only words that church should be mindful of, is that of the prophets and apostles of Jesus.

That was the comment oga. Stop giving me more work. Then you now said something in your comment below that contradict this your comment above, see below.

It was the old testament prophets that wrote scriptures, in the new testament the scripture are written by the apostles not prophets. The old testament has already be fulfilled nothing can be added.

Keep scrolling

they considered the old testament authoritative, Jesus quoted the book of Isaiah in the temple in the midst of the jews.

This comment is not for me

that is lie! canonization of scriptures is not a matter of individual opinion but on collective acceptance. Few people might disagree but the whole group agree on it. The Jewish nation collectively agreed on the old testament books we have today and the church collectively agreed on the new testament.



actually christ gave the church that power.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Secondly, the 12 apostles which had authority to set doctrine for the entirely of the Christian church, if anybody would not accept it then he is not part of the body of christ.



Nobody has the authority to do so, Luke and mark were with apostles and they were eye witnesses of the events that took place, for their books to be acceptable by the early Church it means the apostles approved of it.

In your comment above, you said:

"in the new testament the scripture are written by the apostles."

Now you're saying that it was written by both the apostles and those who were with the apostles.

You're giving me more work oga.

the apostles didn't set any new testament canon. They just wrote their letters, it was still others who loved God that assembled these books and declare them canon. The time it was accepted as canon was not the time God started viewing them as inspired. As they spoke the word from God, it was inspired from then.

I think you should research this subject well, and stop creating work for me abeg

MaxInDHouse:
So there's no need arguing over difference in beliefs since we all know the basic as doing what is good and abstaining from what is evil all religionists agreed on this as BASICS!

In differences of opinion, one opinion is correct while one is wrong. Both can't be right. Arguing to prove to another might not be wrong in itself, but we should not go to the extent of saying so and so will not make the kingdom because of that belief. Only God knows why so and so doesn't accept that truth.

Eg Paul taught that the law is out of the way, while the brothers in Jerusalem were observing the law and teaching others to observe it. Differences of opinion. One was right, one was wrong, but all are in the Lord. If you sincerely don't know you're wrong, it is very likely that God will overlook it. Unless if you're deliberately lying to yourself. Why say so?

Job is the example. He was wrong, and he defended his wrong conclusions. God knew he didnt do so deliberately. So, if God sees that if he corrects you, you will accept it, then he can accept you even though He sees you're in error. He knows we all can't all get it right. I mean, we're not Him.

Michael547:
So are you saying that God is using all groups of churches today with their contradictory teachings?

Contradictory doctrine in itself is not a major issue. God knows we can't all agree on everything. Something's are basic.

JW have the view that there is only one group God can use. They are of the view that God cannot use two groups or organization at a time.

They teach that any who want to worship God acceptably must join them, since they see themselves as that one true religion. There decision hangs on some scriptures, one of which is Eph 4:4,5

"One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Some witnesses will point to the fact that this place mentions " one" for each of the items, one body, one faith, one baptism, one lord etc. That is true, but are we to understand this to mean that there has to be only one Church or one christian institution? No, any more than saying that there must be one baptism, nor one Lord nor even one body. There are more than one type of baptism, Jesus is not the only Lord, we have fleshly bodies, spiritual bodies etc.

One body refers to the body of Christ. In that body are different gifts, ministries, and different personalities.

The JWs feel that faith in that Eph 4 refers to one organization. The faith there is a form of worship based on faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. It doesn't mean one organization. Any true christian organization based on ransom sacrifice of Jesus is in that one faith, one body. The head or the Governing Authority in this body is Christ.

But has God not used only one channel all through the centuries? When God used the Israelites, did He use another channel?

We should first, ask, what does the JW mean by channel? In their mind, what they mean is one organization ruled by few elders in the Headquarters. They will point to people God used like the Israelites. They see them as the only ones God used at the time before the christian congregation came on board. Any who wanted to worship Jehovah, as they say, will go through the Israelites.

This view is understandable since God called the Israelites His special people. He gave them the laws, priesthood, leaders. In fact they were God's house.

However, that never meant that worship of God was only acceptable only if it went through Israel. Why?

The worship of God has been through a set up altar. This method of worship is open for any who wish to worship God. This is equally true even when the God appointed priests were available.

Cain and Abel individually made altars where they sacrificed to the same God. Both Noah and Abraham had theirs as well. As family heads, they were like Priests to their own families.

Melchizedek was the first communal priest the bible mentioned. He was a priest and a king of Salem. Obviously, there must have been people serving God in Salem where he officiated. But that didn't mean that Abraham can no longer serve God through the altar if he wants to.

What about the time of the Israelites? Did all that stop? No. The Governing Body will have you think so. But many seem to forget that job and the community he lived in worshiped God. That community was contemporaneous to the Israelites. How do we know that the community worshiped God?

Job 31 verses 26-28 Job stated that if he has ever worshiped the sun or moon, that such error would be punished by the judges.

This shows that the community was God fearing. Yet the Israelites were also worshiping the SAME God where they were.

It is true that Israel's way of worshiping the same God was quite different. They had the tabernacle, priestly class, festive seasons etc, but that didn't make other worship unacceptable. The Uz community can't replicate the system of worship in Israel without God approving it. Even Melchizedek mode of operation in the Salem community won't be the same in Israel. We also know that Naaman would also have had his own little way in which he worshiped God after Elijah gave him a go ahead order. (2kings 5:19) Even Elijah himself has an altar he worshiped God in Israel (1kings 19:10) while those in Judah did their's at the temple in Jerusalem.

Coming to the first century. While Jesus had his disciples who follow his directions, John had his with slight differences in their practices. In fact after the wrongly believed Governing body in Jerusalem was established, Apolos who knew nothing about the so called Governing body was aglowed with the spirit as he preached. Meaning that he and others who worshiped God have His Spirit even though they know nothing about the "Giverning body" in jerusalem. (To see that there were no Governing Body in Jerusalem, see https://www.nairaland.com/7926922/ministry-jws-part-5-governing)

The Ethiopian Eunuch who traveled back to his land would also have slightly different way he would be worshiping his God there as a Christian. We wouldn't assume he would follow exactly what is at 1cor 14.

Jehovah's witnesses would say there is just one faith. Yes, one faith based on the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. That's the meaning, but what about one body? Why aren't they mentioning that? We know that this one body refers to Anointed Christians, not the other sheep of JWs. There is actually one body of anointed Christians, but the witnesses don't Believe that. What about one hope? Which is heavenly hope. The witnesses say no, there is two hopes. I plead that you witnesses start studying the bible for yourselves. This worship monopoly you're living in is not healthy.

True christians doesn't see themselves as an organization with one Governing body. They see themselves as a body of Christ with Christ as the head of that Body. That is the unifying factor, Christ, not Governing body.

Steep:
The Jewish nation as a whole considered the books of the prophets and the law as inspired, and even Jesus himself considered them as scriptures. The jews might not immediately believe that Jeemiah was a prophet but subsequently they knew he was sent by God and all that he wrote were inspired when they came to pass

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

You should know that scriptures have internal validation, meaning one Scripture often validate another scripture and there is a flow and internal consistency, canonization of scriptures right from inception has rules.

The part I bolded is the main point. Not ALL accepted Jeremiah as a true prophet when he was alive. All the other things you wrote there is not the issue at stake. I didn't object to any of that.

There are no Christian who don't consider the book of Peter and revelation as scripture today, in the time past all of the church consider what we have today as scripture so it's not new.

You seem to lack knowledge of the argument that accompanied the bible's canonization. You need to make research about this. It is well known fact that some books in the bible were not all accepted as inspired. Even Martin Luther Zwingli, Calvin all had issues with the book of Revelation.

That statement are inspired does not mean it scripture, a scripture is an inspired writing by holy men.

Ok, I wonder how that helps your point. If you believe that a statement can be inspired but didn't make it into the bible, you're closer to my point. Well done.

what new revelation? Apostle Peter already seal it up for the church.

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour

The only words that church should be mindful of, is that of the prophets and apostles of Jesus.

Well Jesus still has prophets today.

Daniel himself recognized the jerimaiah books as scripture, the angel of God sent to Daniel also acknowledged jerimiah writings as scripture, above all Jesus christ acknowledged Jeremiah along with all the other prophets including Moses as scripture.

Matthew 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Jesus read Moses and the prophets to the jews, meaning the jews themselves acknowledged them as scriptures.

I don't even know how all these address my post. Did I argue any of that?

The old testament was already settled at the time of Jesus, in fact there was little or no controversy as to what scriptures are at the time of Jesus.

Ok, at the time of Jesus. So you agree that prior to that time, there were some issues right?

But how about the saducees and the Samaritans? Which books did they consider authoritative?

Apocryphals were never recognized by christ and the apostles.
Meanwhile for the new testament, the apostle laid the foundations.

Scripture is very clear, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles (12 apsotles) and prophets with Jesus being the chef corner stone, no other person has the authority to write a scripture.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Again I don't know who you have in mind to write the above.

The point is, do you believe that some in Judaism of Jesus day considered these apocryphals as scripture? Do you think that the Jewish system considered Jesus, Peter, Paul etc as an inspired prophets of God?

If no, then we are saying the same thing here. What you consider to be inspired today was not believed in at the time they were written. The persons we know to be God's prophets, Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jeremiah etc were not all agreed to be God's prophets the time they lived. Some even doubted Moses. That has always been the case. You can't expect a general acceptance. I will even say that majority never believed Christ when he was alive. It's the same today.

But the major point is that the acceptance and collection of these books as inspired word of God is not through a voice from heaven. God didn't tell anyone to collect this or that book. It was all through discussions and argument of which book should be viewed as authoritative or canonical. As for the inspiration of the words, it already had inspiration from the time God uttered those words to His servants, whether it is penned down or not.

So if God truly speaks to someone today, that word is inspired, it is God breathed, whether people accept it or not.

The writings of the 12 apostles are not the only inspired word of God. Luke and Mark, were not apostles nor predictive prophets. But there writings were considered inspired.

Steep:
You are wrong in saying that the bible is just a collection of books by God lovers. Everything about the Bible was inspired by God both the writings and the collection where all inspired.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It's true, the bible is an inspired book as the bible you quoted confirms. However, as for it's collection, I don't quite see how it is inspired. I will agree that God may have influenced one or two things as the collection is ongoing, but saying it is an inspired collection will leave us with many questions.

First, no where did the bible say that the collection work of inspired writing is inspired. The canon of the OT is likely decided on by the Great Synagogue as tradition have it. The bible didn't tell us that.

The Septuagint written by probably 72 Jews had many other writings in it called the Apocryphals. So what they considered inspired obviously is not what we consider inspired today esp the Protestants.

Even in Jesus day, the Saduccees didn't see the prophets as inspired. Eg, they wouldn't consider Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc as inspired.

In the NT, there were many books under inspiration debate. At some point, the book of Peter, Revelation etc were not viewed as inspired by some christians. Im fact, it is possible to see those who do not view certain NT books as inspired as we do. There are many things Jesus said that were not part of the bible. But all those things he said were all inspired. So the bible you have is not a collection of all inspired words on earth. There are other NT writings that some christians view as inspired but which the Protestants reject.

So the bible you have, that is, the 66 books, were just a collection of what is perceived by many to be inspired. God didn't speak from heaven to mention which book is inspired and which is not. Servants of God who love His word are the ones who made the collections. There are many many inspired statements that didn't make the cut.

Though God speaks today but anything he say always inline with the already writing down scripture hence scripture serves as the basis to judge spirits if they are of God.

You're correct. The exception is if there is new revelation from God.

Who told you Jeremiah was not accepted by the religious community.
The jews accepted Jeremiah but rejected christ, the Jewish nation were the ones God used to preserve the old testament while the Christian church were the ones that God used to preserve the new testament, even Jesus christ acknowledge and subjected himself under the authority of the scripture. You will notice that God uses community of the people of God in preserving his word rather than individuals and all the people God used to write the Bible were well known and accepted by the whole of God's community.
For the old testament Moses was well known and a leader of God's nation, same goes with Joshua, David, Solomon, sons of Asaph, the prophets. As for the new testament same thing people who walked with christ during his earthly ministry or were a knowledge by those who walked with Jesus on earth.
No, pastor, bishop, general overseer etc has such authority that those who wrote the scripture had.

People lie all the time in the name of God and hence any revelation must be brought under scriptural examination.

Lol. God's prophets were often rejected by people who lived during there time.

Example. Jeremiah himself recorded;

Jer 20:
Now Pashʹhur the son of Imʹmer, the priest, who was also the leading commissioner in the house of Jehovah, was listening when Jeremiah prophesied these things. 2 Then Pashʹhur struck Jeremiah the prophet and put him in the stocks that were at the Upper Gate of Benjamin, which was in the house of Jehovah"

These man was a leading commissioner. But he didn't believe Jeremiah to be a prophet from God. You can also read Jeremiah chapter 26 and see what happened there.

People of God often reject his prophets when they say a message that is unpopular, a message that sounds different in their ears.

It was not only Jesus that the Jewish community rejected, they also rejected John the Baptist, Paul, Peter etc. so don't see it as strange when today people reject God's prophets, even those who fear God. That has been the way it is. It is often many years, I mean several years do people start to recognize that so and so was actually speaking from God. And in most cases, but the prophet and his generation had long died. But that is very dangerous because God wouldn't overlook those who reject His prophets. They are His mouthpiece.

OLAADEGBU:
[color=orange]SaharaReporters[/color]

Ajoke claimed that she never felt fatherly affection from the late pastor and that her father compelled her to be a disciple to ruin her life.

Why hasn't the Govt stepped in to investigate this allegations? We need to know what to believe. Investigative report is a good start, but the church denied it. So Govt should conduct their own investigations.

Last355:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wCucLkXOnU?si=bgr-NaDIj5GbPdSL

It is true that the lady accused of giving a fake testimony by Dunamis actually graduated from NOUN.

Here is her name (Anyim Vera) on the graduation list: 2262. It's worthy to note that the wrongly accused lady is also a serving police officer

Stage fright can lead to saying the wrong thing or speaking in front of an audience, like saying BSc in Law.

While Members of Dunamis church are currently trooping to her Facebook page to apologise other netizen have advised her to terminate her membership of the church.

See pictures below

If this is true, she deserves an apology from the altar for such a public shame. It's possible her wrong answers was because of stage fright.

alBHAGDADI:
Saying he heard the voice of God loud and clear is one big lie. No man hears the voice of God today unlike in Bible times. The only time we hear Gods voice is when we read the Bible which is the word of God. Everything God has to say to mankind has been recorded in the Bible. So, anyone claiming to get extra words is a false prophet.

Do you know what it means to say you heard the voice of God today? It means you have extra words from God which you want to add to the Bible. But God has laid a curse on such people and they won't be in the book of life. Hell fire awaits them because God specifically warned that no man should add to his word nor subtract from it.

Deuteronomy 4:2 King James Version

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you

This scripture doesn't mean that God can't speak to people today. This command is specifically saying that one can't add to the Mosaic law God gave Moses.

God has been and is still speaking to people today.

After Moses' day, God still spoke to many more prophets He raised like Jeremiah.

Revelation 22:18-19 King James Version

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So, friend, when next a pastor says something like "God spoke to me last night", kindly ask the pastor to show you what God said and that he should place it verbatim with God's word in the Bible. If what he claims to have heard from God doesn't match God's word in the Bible verbatim, then he's lying. Flee from him because he's peddling extra words which never came from God.

Why do false prophets claim to hear extra words from God? It makes them appear as someone that has a relationship with God that is special than what others have. It is also because people love fables. Such people hate the truth, which is why they pack themselves in mega churches to listen to fables like "I drove a car on empty fuel tank".

The book of revelation you quoted is specifically talking about that revelation or vision God gave to John. It doesn't mean God stopped speaking to people after that time. The last written book is not even revelation but 3John

Not every word God spoke made it to the bible canon. What we now call bible is what group of God lovers assembled for all who feared God. Their picking book so and so doesn't mean the words became God's after their selection. It had always been God's, only that God's human worshipers put them all together. They however, didn't gather all God had ever said to humans on earth. Jesus said many many other words that didn't appear in the bible record. Weren't those Gods word as well?

You need to remember that in most cases, God's true prophets are honoured long time after they die. When they're alive, many don't seem to believe them. Jeremiah and Jesus didn't get a thumbs up from the religious communities they lived in. We need to be careful that we're not becoming the unbelievers of our time.

If some claims to hear from God. It's ok, but what does his work promote? Does it promote what God hates? Does he promote a moral depraved lifestyle? We need to be properly guided lest we become fighters against God.

I don't know much about Adeboye, but I have not seen anything that will make me doubt him. And the biblical proves you bring to make your point doesn't match.

MaxInDHouse:
What type of WARS has God ever taken side?

Is that a question? Don't you read your bible?

Questionnaires:
Many of Them are against their teachings and Doctrines.

Very Many.

Even The Deeper Lifers etc.

If you do a count, you will definitely see many against their teachings. But mind you , many does not mean MOST.

Most christians care less about them.

On the other hand, JWs as a religion is against ALL in Christendom, and are openly against MOST of their teachings.

Check MOST books written by Pastors and General Overseers, you will see less mention of Jehovah's witnesses,but check the publications of JWs, and see all mention of Christendom, that alone will convince you who hate who.

MaxInDHouse:
So what type of WARS do you know that God doesn't support?

What I mean is, God doesn't take a side in all the wars that has ever been fought in all human history. There will always be some wars that was fought where God didn't take a side or is not involved at all.

MaxInDHouse:
So when people fight wars in ancient Israel was God supporting both sides?

No. God would logically support one side. However the fact that He even support a side, does it not mean He is not against all wars?

Through Jesus' teachings believers have become sons of God {John 1:11-12} therefore since Israelites fought wars in ancient times the sons of God bought with the blood of His Son can also engage in wars against one another to kill their fellow believers shey?

Remember that God's people must take permission from Him before going to wars which means they must pray to Him so which side was He, both sides?

People don't fight wars just to kill each other. War is a sign of disagreement that went sore. In the disagreement even among worshipers of God, God has one side He will agree with. It is also possible that in some wars, He won't support any side at all.

Remember David fought his son Absalom and his Israelite Army. They were not worshipers of Baal. They were all worshipers of God. But they fought. God supported David's army. So in a war, even among servants of God, God can have a side to support.

Why aren't you seeing my biblical evidence?

All the sides that worship God will always pray to Him. That is not the issue. God can still support one side, but he can't audibly tell each side that He will support them. No. He will tell the side the supports that He is with them. But not in every case would worshipers of God hear His go ahead order before fighting. The bible didn't say David did hear such before fighting Absalom.

But today, it is hard to see nation exclusively run by God like the time of Israel. So what happens is a christian might be in the army like Cornelius was. His fighting would be at the order of the king or President. If he obeys the king or President, God would hold the President responsible for the soldiers actions.

My position is that joining the army should be a personal decision. I see no scripture for the insistence on noncombatant christian. If you don't like it, then don't join the army. But don't say that the bible is against it. It is not.

Aemmyjah:
We are following the examples of Jesus Christ and the first century Christians. If you like, go and fight and kill unasef... What we are doing is something the world cannot do. There's no reference that Jesus fought or his disciples...
A whole epistle of nonsense is what you have written
Even in christendom, they are always criticized for their support in wars in the spirit of nationalism, ethnicity too and politics. We are on part of the world and we don't do such nonsense. If you want to carry gun and fight, you are free...

You're free to do what you want. Personally, I don't like wars nor fights. But to say that the word of God condemns it is to call God a bad God. God told his nation to fight, God himself fought from heaven when he rained hails.

Jesus was among the unseen fighters for Israel during their wars as JWs teach.

The soldiers that approached John the Baptist were not told to resign from military.

Cornelius was an army officer when he received the holy spirit and baptism.

Jesus with the anointed will fight during Armageddon.

Jesus and his angels fought Satan during 1914 as you teach. God is called Jehovah of ARMIES.

Does God support all wars, no. But you can't say He doesn't support war at all. The position of JWs not to fight war is understandable, but don't say that's what the bible says. It will be a fat lie.