Janosky:


Oga, 1 Thessalonians 5:12 & Hebrews 13:17 PROVEN there are leaders/Governing Council/Body.

The leaders/ Governing Council/Body made the decision for the entire congregation.
Everyone was in agreement.
No room for dissent, that's the point of verse 22, elaborated in Thessalonians & Hebrews.
Looking at Acts chapter 2:

Are you sure you read before you reply or you reply before reading? How is all these gaffe reply to this comment? Let me give you another try.

Let's first look at those who partook in the decision making in that meeting. The part that is often omitted by the JW leadership when making their claim is verse 22. Let's see who took part in the decision making, it says:

22 Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation, decided to send chosen men from among them to Antioch, along with Paul and Barʹna·bas; they sent Judas who was called Barʹsab·bas and Silas, who were leading men among the brothers

No Sir.
Oga, verse 5 is a request not a decision. It was never enforced.
Did the Governing Body/Council approve that request in verse 5?

The Governing Body did not give any instructions to subversive, FALSE brothers (apostates).[/b]

Oga, Acts 6:1-5 & 15:1-7,23 the principles is laid down in your Bible.
The Leaders/Governing Body/Council instructions were for all believers everywhere.
Did you see any sole proprietor pastorpreneur venture in the Bible book of Acts?

Check am nau.

Poor. Total lack of understanding. Try again. Don't stress me. Go back and reread the point.

What a shallow attempt to distort the holy scriptures!
Acts 9:26-28, Oga was Paul playing Ludo & Draft when he spent some time with the Apostles?

Did you not read Paul named God's will & Sosthenes for his Apostleship?

How does this affect the point I made?

After his conversion @ Acts 9:1-9, did Jesus direct Paul to set up a sole proprietor pastorpreneur venture?

Oga,go & study your Bible very well, let JWs help you.

If this is the best you can give, then it is better you go back to 'learn to read and write" brochure because you obviously don't understand sentences or you are deliberately pretending not to know.

Sometimes I deliberately ignore most of the rubbish you reply. But so that you don't think you said something, I chose to reply to this one. Guy you de far!

MaxInDHouse:


So you're not even sure if JWs are right or wrong?

Ọmọ why all these wahala if you can't say for sure?

Being theologically right or wrong is different from who will be saved. Many if their theology is wrong. But who will be saved has been left in the hand of Jesus. Salvation is a broad subject. There are many scriptures to review on that, but even after that, I lawyer can quote this or that section of the constitution, but the judge has the final say.

Are there scriptures that can be used to prove that Jehovah's witnesses won't be saved? Yes. But can the great judge disagree? Yes. How is that possible? God is love. He is also merciful, he is slow to anger, he wants all to be saved etc. These factor may affect the way he will judge anyone. No one should be dogmatic on that subject. That's the point.

MaxInDHouse:


So judging from your point of view, if the so
called PIMOS decide to stay in the organization can they be saved?

Many of them are atheist remember. There is no scripture saying God will save those who remain atheist. But some are not atheist. With regards to who will be saved, no one can say that for sure. Jesus has been given the power to make that decision. What ever anyone says as to who will be saved is just his opinion. Jesus makes the final decision.

If someone has faith is Jesus ransom sacrifice, that is a good milestone. Those who have such faith have my respect. Will all with such faith be saved? Jesus will decide.

In there Frequently Asked Question, the Witnesses explains what the Governing Body means:

"The Governing Body is a small group of mature Christians who provide direction for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide. Their work is twofold:


They oversee the preparation of Bible-based instruction through the publications, meetings, and schools of Jehovah’s Witnesses.​—Luke 12:42.


They supervise the worldwide work of Jehovah’s Witnesses by directing our public ministry and overseeing the use of donated assets.


The Governing Body follows the pattern set by “the apostles and elders in Jerusalem” in the first century, who made important decisions on behalf of the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15:2) Like those faithful men, the members of the Governing Body are not the leaders of our organization. They look to the Bible for guidance, acknowledging that Jehovah God has appointed Jesus Christ as the Head of the congregation.​—1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:​23."


From what they said here, we see what they mean when the term Governing Body is used. Few scriptures is quoted here to back up their claim but that doesn't mean that there are no other scriptures they use to support their view. My interest is on the scripturalness of the claim. Was there a body who served the function as the Governing body of Jehovah's witnesses do today? Let's see.

The chief reason they see things this way is because of what happened in the first century about the circumcision. It all started from the verse they cited, acts 15;2. Let's read from verse 1:

"Now some men came down from Ju·deʹa and began to teach the brothers: “Unless you get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”  2 But after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and Barʹna·bas with them, it was arranged for Paul, Barʹna·bas, and some of the others to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue."

The point the above publication wants to make is that the case was referred to the apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to make the decision. According to JW, these apostles and elders constitute the governing body in the first century that made decisions for the entire congregation back then. Reading through the whole chapter, one might feel that verse 23 give credence to this view. It says:

23 They wrote this and sent it through them: “The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Ci·liʹcia who are from the nations: Greetings!"

And reading further, we also noticed that Paul and Barnabas went on distributing these decision to the brothers as Acts 16;4 reported. From JW view, these shows that there were men in Jerusalem who made decisions for the entire worldwide christians of the first century. So, the Governing Body follow their lead. But there are more scriptures to consider on this subject that could reveal a different conclusion.

Let's first look at those who partook in the decision making in that meeting. The part that is often omitted by the JW leadership when making their claim is verse 22. Let's see who took part in the decision making, it says:

22 Then the apostles and the elders, together with the whole congregation, decided to send chosen men from among them to Antioch, along with Paul and Barʹna·bas; they sent Judas who was called Barʹsab·bas and Silas, who were leading men among the brothers."

Yes, the apostles and the elders were there, but there were many others in the Jerusalem congregation that had a say in the decision making. In fact notice that this, let's call it council, decided to send representatives to those congregations. So it was not only apostles and elders. If we follow JW reasoning, it then means that the Governing Body is not just apostles and elders, but also members of the congregation. See also verse 4.

There are others as well, perhaps they are also part of the congregation mentioned in verse 4 and 22. See verse 5

5 But some of those of the sect of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and command them to observe the Law of Moses.”

All these joined in the decision making. If we follow the JW logic, these should also be part of the Governing body.

Another aspect that is often omitted is that even the men who went to Antioch and preached that wrong message is among the Governing Body as well. See how the bible puts it:

24 Since we have heard that some went out from among us and caused you trouble with what they have said, trying to subvert you, although we did not give them any instructions,"

So these is not a governing body making decisions for the entire christians back then, this is much like a council, a snod, an ecumenical gathering of church leaders to settle doctrinal differences. These issue was settled between Leaders in Paul's territory and those at Jerusalem. The letter was not sent to Rome, Samaria, Colossi, Ethiopia, Babylon etc. So it was not to an entire Christian church functioning in the first century. True, the congregation in Jerusalem was unique, the whole christian movement began from there, the apostles who worked with Jesus worshiped there. Just as any General Overseer or founder of a church today dies, his close ministry team have much authority since they worked with the founder, so it is with the apostles. But they do not exercise the same possessive authority the GB of JWs exercise today. Notice what GB of JW say they do:

A. Oversee the preparation of bible-based instructions through the publications, Meetings, schools:

The question is, did the apostles oversee the preparation of bible based instructions prepared in the first century? No.

After preaching and making disciples without the authority of any Governing Body, Paul wrote a letter directly to the Corinthian congregation unilaterally. No GB approval. (1cor 1:1) That should in fact be Paul's second letter to that congregation. Among the things Paul handled without Governing body approval are: Congregation discipline (1cor 5), counsel on marriage and singleness (1cor 7), Instructions for orderly Congregation worship (1cor 11-14) etc. Paul on his own appointed representatives to the congregation he formed, namely, Timothy, Titus etc. He even wrote a letter to them, instructing them to remove disorderly ones, appoint elders and deacons, congregation fund use (1tim 5-6) etc. These men served as circuit overseers as JWs call it. But while GB of JWs appoint circuit overseers, Paul appointed those in his territory. He even gave them Circuit Overseer Manual eg, 1 and 2nd Timothy, the book of Titus.

So Paul have in himself all the functions the Governing body of JWs says they are overseeing. None of these instruction did he consult with the elders in Jerusalem. He was the General Overseer of the church he formed.

We can be sure that others who had congregations they formed back then had the same authority over the areas they formed, like Philip in Samaria, Epaphras in Colossi, Peter in Babylon, Barnabas later in Cyprus, etc.


B. They supervise the worldwide work of Jehovah’s Witnesses by directing our public ministry and overseeing the use of donated assets.

These too has no first century precedence.

Notice how Paul and Barnabas began what we will call a missionary work.

Acts 13
As they were ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Set aside for me Barʹna·bas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”  3 Then after fasting and praying, they laid their hands on them and sent them off."

The holy spirit appointed them missionaries. So, what happened next? They ran to Jerusalem to get an approval? No. The elders in Antioch laid their hands, and off they went. They formed congregations, appointed elders and deacons and later Paul wrote them instructions as we see in point A.

After their missionary work, did they run to jerusalem? Again, no. See how chapter 14 said it:

From there they sailed off for Antioch, where they had been entrusted to the undeserved kindness of God for the work they had now completed. 27 When they had arrived and had gathered the congregation together, they related the many things God had done by means of them, and that he had opened to the nations the door to faith. 28 So they spent considerable time with the disciples."

They finished the work, and gathered the congregation. For what? To submit their report, lol. But not to the non existent GB, but to those who sent them, the elders in Antioch. And even their second missionary journey began from Antioch. And it is totally, I mean totally impossible for any person to be a missionary of JWs without the GB approval. Impossible!

What about donated fund? The apostles handled the fund in the congregation in Jerusalem, but did they handle worldwide congregation fund? No.

Read for yourself 1tim 5, you will see the instruction Paul gave to his circuit overseer, Timothy, on how to use that fund in helping the needy.

Acts 11:28-30 reported a case of famine where the disciples in Antioch considered sending relief to brothers in Jerusalem. 30 says:

30 and this they did, sending it to the elders by the hand of Barʹna·bas and Saul."

They made the contribution, they decided who will take it to the congregation in Jerusalem. Jerusalem didn't oversee how they use their fund.

Truly, there was no Governing Body, Jesus made appointment of who served as his steward, and those he appointed form congregations and cared for them as he directs them through the spirit.

MightySparrow:


If you have any of them near you, be praying that God in His mercy should deliver them from delusion.

I put all of them in prayers, they are still God's creation and He loves them just as He loves me and all in the body of Christ. In fact, it is out of love that I undertook to preach to them on this board on specific teachings they misunderstand, so that any sincere one can see how their position isn't right.

MaxInDHouse:


You don't need to continue deceiving yourself.
There were thousands of Rabbis (religious teachers) in the Jewish community of the first century. When Jesus' teachings began to sound like heresy in the ears of his disciples most of them left him {John 6:61-66} to go and find teachers in other Jewish sects only the twelve remained with him.
Jesus asked those remaining:
“You do not want to go also, do you?” John 6:67
Simon Peter responded:
“Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. We have believed and have come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” John 6:68-69

So they couldn't leave because according to Peter they're convinced beyond all reasoning that there's no better teacher for everlasting life than Jesus. In the same manner there is no sense in forming a community over a religion you know is not worth it if you're sure of better options out there.
If they're trapped It's not that anyone is holding them back they just can't find a better performing group of people who have formed one big and happy global family of peace loving worshipers!

I said go to the community of PIMOS in reddit and hear them speak. All you said above is not the reason they are still in. They are trapped. That's why they rather leak sensitive information about JW to the public. There inside attack has cost the organization millions of dollars as they bring to the public what is not intended for the public. Go and hear for yourself. Many of them are atheists, they care less about religion, but they carry bag and preach. If they see any injustice, they cry out in a coded way undetected. Why don't they just leave? Because of the shunning policy. They can't handle being shunned by friends and families. So they pretend as if they are with you guys, and destroy you within. That's what bad leadership method have cost you. I will one day write a post about shunning. You will see where you guys got it wrong in your interpretation.

oteneaaron:


Their biggest enemies are their own publications.

Every single thing they have accused other religious groups of doing, they have done way worse.

Such disgusting hypocrites.

It is no surprise, for there was a prophecy saying that such people will arise. 2tim 3:6,7 says:

"From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth."

Jw witnesses have a different understanding of Acts 1:11. Let's read

Acts 1:11
11and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

There Publications explains the verse thus:

15 The angels said that Jesus would return, not in the same form, but “in the same manner.” In what manner did he depart? He was out of sight when the angels spoke. Only those few men, the apostles, perceived that Jesus had left the vicinity of the earth and was on his way to his Father in heaven. The manner of Christ’s return was to be similar. So it has been. Today, only those with spiritual discernment realize that Jesus is present in kingly power. (Luke 17:20) We need to discern the evidence of his presence and convey it to others so that they too may see the urgency of our times."

From the publication, the point is:

Only the JW anointed discerned that Jesus had supposedly returned in 1914. As they believe, that discernment by the anointed of JWs was how they saw Jesus returned as the angels spoke in acts 1:11.

Why did they believe so?
Because the angels made their statement after Jesus had gone off view, and that it was only the apostles who saw him leave.

However, does that view make sense? No. Let's first agree that the word manner doesn't emphasize the form with which Jesus left. That was not the point in the angels words. It is manner, but the way the JWs apply the meaning of manner is totally against the context. Let's see:

The angels says "This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

The phrase didn't stop at "in the same manner", but it continued "as you have seen him going into the sky". So the manner has to do with the process with which he ascended into the sky. The process/manner/method will follow a reverse order, in that he will descend to the earth. Yes, the point of tropos (Greek word for manner) is not about the form of body he will return, but the process or way with which he ascended.

However, the JWs says that the manner or process has to do with the fact that only the apostles were present and that they alone saw him. So his return will not be discerned by others except the JW anointed.

After the word manner, the angels continued "... as you have seen him going into the sky". This emphasize a reverse order in his return. None of Jehovah witnesses saw him return. So there was no reverse order in JW return of Christ as the angels say. The JW rather says that the anointed saw the sign that he is a king in heaven as world war occured in 1914. But that is just a sign of a supposed return. That is not what the angels said. The angels say we will see him, not the sign. There are two opposite words used by the angels... Going and coming. Jesus went to heaven, what remains is for him to return (coming). As he is seen going, he will also be seen coming back. That is the correct application of the word tropos (manner).

The JW interpretation replaced seeing with discerning or realization so as to shift the meaning of the angels words to something that will agree with their 1914 theology.

The fact is that the apostles did not just realize that he was going to heaven nor did they discern he was going, rather they saw him[i][/i] going. They did not discern any sign that he was going to heaven, rather they saw that he was going to heaven. In the same way, we will see him returning. That is the proper application of that word "manner".

MaxInDHouse:


Meaning they know there's no better religion out there otherwise they could have easily left to follow a better performing group!

No, they are trapped. Go to the community and hear for yourself.

MightySparrow:
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxpmZ8udr3SVmwA4jbe2V_DJvql272a55q?si=R1gW64705PaxqMCv



The Jehovah's Witnesses's Governing Body has prized themselves as the sole custodian and dispenser of God's knowledge and are also saddled with the responsibility of separating the sheep from the goats.

Since 1919, Jehovah handled commissioned them to undertake these tasks. Though, they teach that the Holy Spirit does not talk to man anymore, how the Holy Spirit gives them conflicting information, interpretation, and direction is still a thing to wonder at.

One Jeffrey Winder, supposedly, one of the Governing Body members was telling members that any errors in their interpretations of the scriptures are backed up by Jehovah Himself. So, the Governing Body does not have to apologize to anyone for any reason whatsoever. They shift the blame to Jehovah and the Holy Spirit.

I personally feel that this group are master deceivers who has mastered the art of hypnotizing their innocent, ignorant sheepies. Interestingly, some of these followers are highly placed people in the careers, lawyers, academics, captains of industries etc How they are comfortable with this High level of manipulation beats my imagination.

C C:
MaximumSide
Emusan
Achorlardey
Janosky
Aemmyjay
other witnesses.

That is what pride can cause. They keep blaspheming the holy spirit by accusing the holy spirit for their errors.

Many who are there as JWs are not in agreement with these doctrines. In fact witnesses, despite their relative low number harbors more PIMOs than any other Christian religion. PIMO meaning Physically In, but Mentally Out. The word PIMO was even coined by these fellows and exjw community. These PIMOs have contributed to the huge exposure of JW secrets, to the extent that their confidential documents and videos make it online before even their elders receive it. Even the Annual Meeting of 2023 is already available to the exjw community while the faithful JWs are told that the remaining part will be available in January 2024. The reason for this insider-destroyers is because of their shunning policy. An unscriptural doctrine that makes one rather stay and destroy them from within than leave and join another church. They reap what they sow.

So don't think that all you see carry bag really believe what they are taught. Many don't. But they are trapped.

Jehovah's witnesses teach that a big issue of the rightness of God's rulership arose in Eden. In there book, What Does The Bible Really Teach, this is said:

"10 To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying Jehovah, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question Jehovah’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to Jehovah’s power. Rather, Satan questioned Jehovah’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that Jehovah is a bad ruler. (Read Genesis 3:2-5.) Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s rulership. This was an attack on Jehovah’s sovereignty, his right to rule."

So they view the exchange that happened at Gen 3:2-5 as a challenge to God's right to rule. God agreeing to allow Satan prove that he is the better ruler made Him allowed the world to be ruled by Satan. It is taught that Satan would show by his rulership whether he is a good ruler or not. After the challenge is proved false by the end of the world, Satan and his cohorts will be destroyed. That would be after the one thousand years.

The article further went on to prove that this was the reason God doesn't interfer with human rulership, so as not to help Satan until he and the humans he rules finally realize that Jehovah is the better ruler, not Satan. In other words, God won't help Satan in any way till the time to prove his point elapses. These, according to JWs has brought the evil we see around us because Satan is running his tenure.

There are challenges to this conclusion reached by the witnesses.

1. Satan has been sentenced before the end of his rule already:

JWs believe that Gen 3:15 is about Satan being crushed by Jesus one day in the future. Why? Because of the deception in Eden. In fact, what God did after Adam sinned is like a court session where God asked all the individuals involved what happened, and finally pass judgment on them. How can Satan be sentenced for a future destruction when he is yet to prove his point?

So obviously God's plan was not to execute Satan immediately.

2. Noah's flood will be like God helping Satan then:

If Satan, who the witnesses view as a stubborn student on the chalkboard, is running his tenure, why then does God come to assist him by destroying evil men during Noah's day? Yet, Satan's tenure of ruling the world is still ongoing? Should the destruction not have been an end to the challenge if it was true?

We also know that God destroyed the Sodomites for serious sin on their part. Is that not God helping Satan if the JW is correct? Or at least a breach of contract.

3. God ruling the Israelite would have been God helping Satan:

If Satan was still running his tenure, why does God have a special people, the Israelites, whom He ruled? Would that not have been like God helping Satan in his rulership of the world?

4. Why did God send the Demons to Tartarus during Satan's tenure?

Why were the demons not killed immediately when they sinned since it was because of Satan's challenge that he was left alive according to JWs? Or did the demons also raise their own individual challenge to God? Some witnesses might say that it was because of the same issue of Universal Sovereignty raised by Satan, that's why they were not killed. But why then were they sent to Tartarus? Which is a form of punishment. And why are they sentenced to destruction in the future when Satan's rulership has not ended?


The witnesses also say that Satan introduced another challenge to human integrity during Job's day. According to them, Satan is saying that no man can ever remain faithful if he undergoes severe suffering of his property or when his life is threatened.

The witnesses say everyone is facing this challenge on earth. But there are some issues here. If job has proved that a man can still be on God's side after severe suffering, why is it being said by the JWs that the challenge is still ongoing? Has Job's integrity not debunked it? Jesus' integrity too proved Satan a liar.

We can see that this position of JWs is not sensible. God has always been in charge. See how Dan 4:17 puts it:

17 This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.”

True Satan is called the ruler of the world, but not the ruler of every individual. God is still the Ruler. But since God takes time to execute judgment, those evil ones like Satan uses that time space to deceive and cause havoc. Satan goes out to get people to be against God, and those he gets is viewed by God to be under the rule of Satan. There was no contract of rulership. God let's Satan have all that chose to disobey Him. God has already passed sentence on both Satan and those who follow him, but because of God's patience, Satan is rather using it to deceive.

We need to know that God doesn't always execute judgment speedily. At times He passes a judgement, but then fixes time of execution in the future. The time lag is what people misuse. There is a reason for the time lag.

Prophet Troy Black says what the Lord told him in a vision about Mary. Towards the end of the video, the vision begins.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64MXvjx2ps8?si=dj0msieg-ZhWECNm

Randy Kay had a message directly from the Lord in heaven to Christians. Take this serious, it's no joke. It is not an advertisement of a pastor. No. It is the message from the Lord. You might want to start from the 27mins mark if you don't want to hear the prelude to the message.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM42pR-sKSQ?si=A0kIFxS96QD6wu1d

In their Enjoy Life Book, JWs says this:

"The Bible book of Daniel indicated that God’s Kingdom would begin ruling at the end of a period called “seven times.” (Daniel 4:16, 17)"

That scripture was not discussing when God's kingdom by Jesus will rule in the future. It was discussing Nebuchadnezzar's rule. What will be the result after seven years? That place they cited says:

"so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind.'

So what will happen to Nebuchadnezzar will show that God is already a Ruler in the Kingdom of mankind.

What about the seven times?

The JWs according to that book Enjoy Life says that the seven times means 2520 years.

How did they arrive at this?

At Rev 12:6 mention was made of 1,260 days. These days is said to be the same as "a time, times and half a time" in verse 14. In other words 3 and half times. Now Dan 4:16 above mentioned seven times. This will mean two "3 and half times". Therefore since 3 and half times stands for 1260 days, two "3 and half times" will equal 2520 days. Then using the formula of a day for a year, we have 2520 years. If you count this from 607 when they believe Jerusalem was destroyed, we land in 1914.

There is a problem with this calculation.

It is true that 3 and half times amounts to 1260 days as that scripture shows, but that only applies in days, not years. In other words, when ever you want to convert 3 and half times to days, you should get 1260 days. But when ever you want to convert 3 and half times to years, it amounts to 3 and half years, not 1260 years.

See how it goes:

1260 days equals approx to 3 years and a half year. In the bible one month equals 30 days.

So if I am 2 years old. If you want to convert that my age to days, it will be 720 days. But it will be wrong that in trying to convert it to years, you now say that I am 720 years. No na.

This is consistent with all the biblical mention of a time, times and half a time in the bible. It's yearly conversion is always 3 and half years, but in days, it is 1260 days. It is believed, even by JWs, that the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar amounted to seven years. This also supports that idea that conversion into years is 3 and half years, not 1260 years.

2. The book went further to say concerning the 1914:

"Centuries later, Jesus referred to that same time period as “the appointed times of the nations,” and he taught that it had not yet ended. (Luke 21:24) As we will see, the seven times ended in the year 1914."

Luke 21:24 doesn't have any link to what happened in Jerusalem when Babylonians came to destroy them in 607 BCE according to JW chronology.

Notice that the book linked the appointed times in Luke 21:24 to the statement of Daniel 4:16, namely, seven times. However, the witnesses do not teach that Nebuchadnezzar had his dream in 607 BCE. So how can the seven times of Nebuchadnezzar start to count from 607 BCE.?

Secondly, let's look at what Jesus actually said from their translation.

From verse 20:

However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

Notice that the whole verse is futuristic. Verse 24 starts off by saying that " they WILL fall by the edge of the sword". And then, " Jerusalem WILL be trampled on..."

So Jesus is just saying what had not yet happened, but what WILL happen in the future. Some might say that the " WILL be" in that verse in Greek is just " will be being" as to indicate a present continuous action. But it doesn't make sense, because the WILL indicating a future action is there. One scholar proposed a better interpretation. He says this Greek means that Jerusalem will be trampled on and continue so till the appointed times of the nations is complete. That make more sense. Also notice that the verse 24 started off with "they WILL fall by the edge of the sword". So that WILL there indicates future trampling of Jerusalem and not a trampling that happened as far back as 607 BCE.

Jerusalem in that book of Luke is not davidic line of rulers, it is clearly the city of Jerusalem.

Thirdly, Jesus became a king in the first century. JWs will have us believe that Jesus was just sitting on God's right hand till 1914 when he climbed a throne.

That is directly contradicted by 1 Cor 15:25. It says:

25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet."

Before his enemies is put under his feet, he has to be a ruler.

Fourthly, Jesus while on earth made a triumphant entry into Jerusalem as a king.

Matt 21:
5 “Tell the daughter of Zion: ‘Look! Your king is coming to you, mild-tempered and mounted on a donkey, yes, on a colt, the offspring of a beast of burden.’”

That fulfilled in the first century not in 1914.

Another point is, if Jesus became king in 1914, then the ruler of the world is Jesus, not Satan. It will interest you to know that the JWs see Daniel 7:14 to have been fulfilled in 1914.

14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

If it did fulfill in 1914, then Jesus is the ruler of the world. The whole world is serving him. Why call Satan again.

Another point that shows that he should be ruler of the world is at Rev 11:15

15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

So it is contradictory to still say that Satan is the ruler of the world.

This is part of my ministry to you witnesses, what you do with it is your choice.

MaxInDHouse:

We learn everyday so it's good to meditate on whatever we read in the Bible to grasp the whole thing instead of just concluding that those involved did what is right simply because they are ancient faithful servants of God. I'm not disputing their kind gesture and generosity but what i'm saying and will continue saying is that Jesus never taught them to do that, according to Christ Jesus anyone who wants to help a neighbour should do it codedly without letting others know {Matthew 6:3} note that Jesus never for once distribute money even though he has all the power to do so and moreover when one of the apostles suggested that they should sell what was given and give the money to the poor ones among them Jesus said each person can do that on his own! Mark 14:7

It's better you don't even quote or mention me again because i won't stop telling the truth!

If you can see clearly from your publications that Jesus' disciples were imitating Jesus example and yet imply that Jesus didn't give his support to what they did, I doubt you're a JW. You don't accept truth from bible neither do you even agree with what is in your publications. If I will reply to your comment, you will have to back up whatever you say with a publication quotation from your organization. That way, I will be sure I am dealing with a witness. For now, I won't view you as a witness.

I look forward to a true JW to rebut my posts about the JWs.

achorladey:



the fact that he was trying to draw similarities between what their religious leaders are doing and rope the apostles into it already shows he very much get the point. He is doing every thing in his capacity to seek justification for the flip flop done by his religious when saying the apostles were equally doing flip flop of which he cannot support using the bible.

It is disheartening. They have gone off course.

MaxInDHouse:

[1]Therefore, does the one who supplies you the spirit and performs powerful works among you do it because of your works of law or because of your faith in what you heard?

[2]And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services; abilities to direct; different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they?

Which between the two accounts specifically mentioned the name of a gentile performing miracles in Jesus name?

What? You are asking about the name of any gentile performing miracle in Jesus name?

The bible didn't specifically mention that, and that doesn't mean that no gentile in the first century ever had miraculous ability. I know you won't say that.

The scriptures I posted shows that some in gentile congregations did have miraculous abilities. It is not only a Jewish thing.

achorladey:


From Sand2022.......





I know you can lie to save your bartered face and lack of self respect even peddling madness and insanities alongside it



Where is the valid indisputable point? You will start running by peddling wahala all over the place. His response to you already shows na invalid and disputable points

Thanks my brother

Janosky:


flip-flop | meaning of flip-flop - Longman Dictionary
www.ldoceonline.com › dictionary › flip...
flip-flop meaning, definition, what is flip-flop: to change your opinion about something.
Flip–flop Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary
www.britannica.com › dictionary › flip–f...
FLIP–FLOP meaning: 1 : a type of loose rubber sandal; 2 : a sudden change of opinion


Oga, @ 1 Corinthians 15:12, did the disciples in Corinth CHANGE their belief, OPINION about Jesus resurrection?

Luke 24:25,45 , would Jesus say the disciples FOOLISH if they believe EVERYTHING Jesus taught them?

Oga,why are you DECEIVING YOURSELF?

That's flip-flop you're defining. I can see the path you're going intentionally acting as if you don't know what I mean.

Flip is to cause something to turn over.

Flop can mean to fail, it can also mean to change or turn suddenly.

It is true that flip flop doesn't capture the exact meaning I have in mind, but I did give example of what I meant using the Superior Authorities as an example. I also use moving from A to B and then returning to A again. My point was perfectly clear. But you keep replying as if your brain got lost or as if you don't even understand what am saying. Now it is clear that your response was deliberate. You knowingly give off point answer to waste my time. So don't be angry if I chose to ignore your comments.

In their book, Enjoy Life Now and Forever, Jehovah's witnesses states that blood represents life, this is according to Lev 17:14. This is true. The book further states that according to Gen 9:4, God forbade the eating of blood. We should take note that the restriction is on eating blood.

In the NT, the same restriction continued, as the book says. Acts 15

28For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!”

The book now went further to expand on how this restriction affect blood transfusion. It says:

"What does it mean to abstain from blood? If a doctor told you to abstain from alcohol, you would not drink it. But would you eat foods that contained it or have alcohol injected into your veins? Obviously not. Likewise, God’s command to abstain from blood means that we should not drink blood or eat meat that has not been bled. Nor should we eat any food to which blood has been added.

What about the medical use of blood? Some procedures clearly violate God’s law. These include the transfusion of whole blood or any of its main components​—red cells, white cells, platelets, and plasma."


Here I feel is the area we need to reason out well. The bible clearly forbade the eating of blood, so we shouldn't eat it in any way as Christians. On that area I agree with the Watchtower. However, blood transfusion can't be compared to injecting alcohol into your system. Secondly, blood transfusion isn't eating blood. Let me explain.

If you eat blood, the process it passes is not the same as when you transfuse it. The blood when transfused becomes part of your body organs. Blood transfusion is like an organ transplant, which the witnesses now leave to conscience. That's not the same as eating the blood which serves a nutritional purpose. Using blood as part of nutrition is what the bible prohibits. Instead of banning blood transfusion, it would be better to leave the issue to personal decision since this is an area that we dont have a direct scriptural command.

Second point: Acts 15:29 says we should abstain from blood. The witnesses view this to mean total abstinence. But, do we have to see it that way?

Notice other things that that scripture says we should abstain from...

to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.

Take the issue of things sacrifices to idols as an instance. Does it mean total abstinence? 1cor 8:7,8 shows that one can eat what is sacrificed in an idol temple if it doesn't cause stumbling. So while the prohibition was on communal eating of things sacrifices to idols, it didn't mean that such meats can never even be eating even when it is sold in a market. The point I am making is this; do not over extend scriptural application beyond it's context, you could end up setting up rules God never intended. God forbade meat sacrifices to idols, but He didn't mean that on no occasion can you eat such meat.

In the same vein, the restriction is on eating blood, that's where the bible stopped, don't extend the restriction to blood organ transplant. God didn't have that in mind while given the law. It would be better to leave it to conscience matter.

There are other reasons why this view makes sense:


1. Taking blood when life is at stake isn't wrong:

1sam 14
33 So it was reported to Saul: “Look! The people are sinning against Jehovah by eating meat with the blood.” At this he said: “You have acted faithlessly. Roll a large stone to me immediately.”

It is clear that these soldiers ate blood. True it is still a sin, however, God didn't inflict the death penalty, why? The situation obviously is understandable, they were in dare need of food to save their lives because of Saul's restriction on food. If God was understanding and pardoned the people because the needed to stay alive, how much more someone who is in need of blood transfusion to save his life, I mean a transfusion we don't have a direct ban from the scriptures? Why would you have to loose your life for that? Is it sensible to loose a life just to keep a mere symbol of life? If a doctor told you to abstain from hard drugs, and as severe pain tried to kill you and that hard drugs is the only way you can save that life, would you think the doctor will restrict that drug from you? We all know that in some situations, a doctor can even recommend marijuana to a patient although it is banned.

Don't save the symbol of life, and then loose the life.

You are guiltless when death occurs in self defense: Exod 20;2-3

In this, we are still assuming that blood transfusion is scripturally prohibited, even though it is not. Some may say it is better to die and await resurrection than to break God's law. That is true in many cases, but since life is precious, God doesn't want you to loose it recklessly. We see this in the example of the soldiers. But we also see it in the book of Exod 20: 2-3a

"If a thief is found in the act of breaking in and he gets struck and dies, there is no bloodguilt for him. 3 But if it happens after sunrise, there is bloodguilt for him."

Now, God forbade murder, but what if someone comes to thief in your house at night, you don't know if he came to even kill someone, if you had to murder that criminal, God is saying you are free. Now this is murder, a serious sin in God's sight, but He makes exception here because he won't tolerate it when one just stays like a pole and have another kill him unnecessarily. Or this might even be one who dies as the house owner is trying to protect his property from the intruder. Whichever it is, what we know is that when one breaks in at night and gets kill there, the house owner can go free.

In other words, some murder was excused because probably, life is involved. Blood transfusion involves life which is very precious to God, do not think that God is happy for you to waste that life just to save a symbol. You're sinning by doing that. The person you're taking his blood will still be alive, so why bother?

Lastly, your leaders might still change this doctrine tomorrow after having incurred a blood guilt for many that have died for this doctrine. It is worthy of note that they had previously taught that taking vaccine and organ transplantation was a sin. Some died for this, but they later changed it. If you die for an unscriptural policy, you didn't die for God, you died for your leaders.

achorladey:


His brain submitted to mumu and no get sense peddling already. You at one time question his response to your post right? That's confirmation of his mumu and no get sense peddling on nairaland

Nawa o

MaxInDHouse:


Among the Israelites only that's what Jesus said! Matthew 15:24

Can you quote a verse where a none Israelites was given miraculous power?

Gal 3:5; 1cor 12:28,29

MaxInDHouse:


My guy, it's wrong hiding behind a finger.

When people come together and each sold a property only to gather the money and share equally among themselves it's a poverty alleviation program explain it to anybody that's what they were trying to do against the teachings of Jesus who told them that there will always be poor ones among them!

One 1980 article, under the heading " The motivating power of Christ's generosity" says concerning this event:

" Appreciation for Jesus Christ’s generosity promoted a fine spirit of giving among the early Christians. Shortly after the Christian congregation was founded, we are told: “There was not one in need among them; for all those who were possessors of fields or houses would sell them and bring the values of the things sold and they would deposit them at the feet of the apostles. In turn distribution would be made to each one, just as he would have the need.”​—Acts 4:34, 35"

People who were imitating Christ. Someone here is saying they are acting against the teaching of Christ.

I will start to ignore your post that are nonsensical and that insults the followers of Jesus. You need spiritual help.

MaxInDHouse:


The signs and wonders Paul was talking about was God's promise to the Israelites only:

After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. Joel 2:28-29

That's what Peter reminded Jews that witnessed the event at Pentecost {Act 2:16-18} and Jesus expressly said such gifts are for the benefit of only the Israelites! Matthew 15:24

So that's not what Jesus promised as evidence of those doing God's will in the end time.

According to Jesus imperfect humans will come from different geographical locations on this planet and become peacemakers like himself! Act 1:8 compare to Isaiah:2-24; Micah 4:1-3

That's the one and only evidence of God's backing as for supernatural gifts all religions today have it what they can't produce is the disciples who are peacemakers and preachers like Jesus of Nazareth! Act 1:8

That's the FRUIT expected of Christianity! Matthew 7:16-18

This occured during Passover. Many came to Jerusalem from abroad. They perhaps didn't plan to stay long in Jerusalem. Now because of the new religion, which they are now part of, they stayed back. This multitude need to be fed. That necessitated the selling of property to feed them. That they sold properties indicates they were poor people. This is not a poverty alleviation program. It was done to feed these new disciples who stayed over.

You can't blame this program for the death of Annanias.

achorladey:


It is deliberate attempt to lie and manipulate the scriptures. It has nothing to do with poor understanding.

Maybe. For someone to read and then give a reply very different from your point, maybe it's deliberate. It may also be he doesn't even understand the point.

Janosky:


Oga,You hate the Bible truth: 1 Corinthians 15:12, the brethrens in Corinth did not believe in Jesus resurrection.
2 Corinthians 13:9, did Paul the apostle admonish them to re-adjust & amend their beliefs?

Jesus reprimanded the disciples, as "FOOLISH" @Luke 24:25, the same thing he would do to you for WAILING.
.

Oga, join those FAITHLESS miscreants & enjoy your WAILING.

These things are not flip flop. God help me. Where went your brain?

MaxInDHouse:


The signs and wonders Paul was talking about was God's promise to the Israelites only:

After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions. And even on my male slaves and female slaves I will pour out my spirit in those days. Joel 2:28-29

That's what Peter reminded Jews that witnessed the event at Pentecost {Act 2:16-18} and Jesus expressly said such gifts are for the benefit of only the Israelites! Matthew 15:24

So that's not what Jesus promised as evidence of those doing God's will in the end time.

According to Jesus imperfect humans will come from different geographical locations on this planet and become peacemakers like himself! Act 1:8 compare to Isaiah:2-24; Micah 4:1-3

That's the one and only evidence of God's backing as for supernatural gifts all religions today have it what they can't produce is the disciples who are peacemakers and preachers like Jesus of Nazareth! Act 1:8

That's the FRUIT expected of Christianity! Matthew 7:16-18

For only Jews? Is that what your church taught you? Nawa for you o.

Whether he quoted Joel has no effect on my point. The point is, that is God's evidence of approval. It's not a unique case, even between Moses and Korah, Elijah and prophet of Baal, supernatural evidence is God's way of showing whom he approves. Paul's point is that in addition to the fact that the apostles confirmed it, God also from heaven bore witness through miracles. That's the point.

Janosky:


Luke 9:45
But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Luke 18:34
And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Luke 24:25,45
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken."


The same disciples Jesus opened their minds to understand the holy scriptures, still did not believe in Jesus resurrection @ 1 Corinthians 15:12.

Did the disciples understand and believe everything in the holy scriptures?

Even Peter who wrote Acts 10:34, did Peter practice Acts 10:34 @ Galatians 2:11-14?

But you are here WAILING upandan about JWs.
Are you okay?

Very poor in understanding.

Emusan:


The point Vulgate is around when KJV was made, so the idea of KJV using the comma didn't come from Erasmus.



One of the reasons cite for rejection is that it's not found in the early Greek manuscripts we have in possession today

This thread addressees the reason why scholars rejected it and if their reason hold water or not then proceed to show that the text already in use and can be traced back to 2nd century.

As it was alluded to by early Christians.



Funny, you want something that was removed to still be in place.

So what is in between it?

It's the comma.



Where is your evidence for this?

I reply to the last question.

From a paper by Bruce M. Metzger titled "The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration" . This paper is a classic and authoritative work on the history and development of the New Testament text, from its original composition to its modern editions. The paper discusses the Vatican 1209 manuscript extensively, and describes it as "the chief representative of an ancient recension of the text which goes back to Alexandria in Egypt" [^4^, p. 46]. The paper also states that the Vatican 1209 manuscript has some "corrections made by several hands", including "accents and breathings added in saec. IX-X" [^4^, p. 47]. The term "saec. IX-X" means "the 9th and 10th century" in Latin. Therefore, according to this paper, the umlaut was one of these corrections made in the 9th or 10th century CE, but the paper does not explain why it was added.

Janosky:



In history, was any woman addressed as Babylon?
Not at all!

"Babylon" represents something.... Yes!
empire definition
/ˈɛmpʌɪə/
noun
an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.


Oga, take note:
"Simply put, it means the the Great City, but this city has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

The city/woman commands global influence, power on a global scale (over the kings of the earth everywhere),in the same manner that ancient Babylon's influence/power extended beyond the physical borders of the Babylonian empire.

In history, was any woman addressed as Babylon?
Not at all!

Fine point. Thank you for bringing another reason why your church interpretation of that woman is wrong. Kudos.

But perhaps you didn't even understand my point.

Janosky:


Oga, your points is not well presented here because it seems you did not likely reference Revelation 17:18 but you had in mind another chapter of Revelation.

If your point is based on the aspect you bolded, that's the verse I mean.

Rev 17
18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

There "means" didnt make the JWs to believe that "the great city" stands for Babylon the Great.

MightySparrow:


They are not sincere. I have been reading their publications more than four decades. If you follow this thread, you will see that the Jehovah's Witnesses's of today are denying C.T. Russell. They said he was influenced by the church of his time. With the ' New Lights', the old lights and the bringers are discarded.

In the future, 1914 that seems to be the pillar of JWs will still be discarded by the then lazer light.
They don't have any Holy Spirit ; they are just playing kalokalo with scriptures.
They are living in delusion.

That's how they always comdemn their previous beliefs, I mean the so called beliefs that holy spirit revealed.